Smyth Busters: Are Old Smith & Wessons Better Than New Ones?
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- čas přidán 23. 11. 2020
- Brownells Gun Techs Steve Ostrem and Caleb Savant tackle another item of Internet gun lore: the notion that old Smith & Wesson revolvers are better than new ones. It's been kicked around by S&W fans for a long time - probably since the "old" guns were new! Having has popped open the hood and worked inside more than a few Smiths, Steve's view is that old guns are well-built, beautifully finished, and great for collecting. (Old guns are referred to as "pinned and recessed" because the barrel is pinned to the frame, and the chambers are counterbored so the case head is recessed to sit flush with the cylinder's rear face.) But for a hard-use shooter, he'll take a new Smith & Wesson any day. The new guns do have MIM (Metal Injection Molded) parts, which were pretty bad when first introduced, but now these guns are built like tanks to shoot A LOT. The "Endurance Package" on the new .44 Magnum revolvers prevents the cylinder from popping open when you shoot heavy loads. The new guns are more accurate, too, because the cylinder throats were too large on old Smiths. A modern Model 625 will shoot much tighter groups than an old Model 25 because the new gun's cylinder throat is cut to .452", while the old gun's is often as large as .455". So this myth is NOT BUSTED. For collecting, go with Old models; for shooting, go with New. The real answer is to have BOTH in your gun safe!
- Sport
I know it’s impractical, but I wish S&W would make a separate line of their old revolvers with forged parts, pinned & recessed, and with no Hillary hole. I’d be willing to pay a premium for that.
Too bad America is dying! No longer the land of 1911’s, now it’s a Taurus hellscape, poor people deserve it though
Me too.
Yeah, they went ahead and did some "classic" guns, why not take that ALL the way. They'll cost more, but folks will pay (I think....LOL).
I think the soul of the gun leaks out of the key-hole, so it's old school for me.
I'll just keep my 1976 S&W Mod 29, 6.5" active for a while longer. Maggy has defended this family for 40 years!
@Tracey Walker ...you had Damn well better have a worthy family member that the 29 can be bequeathed to... Don't allow it to go back into public circulation. 😀
How many rounds through it?
lucky punk, sold mine along with a python in 2002, still kicking myself everyday
Nice! I have the -2
The whole answer: that damn lock!
Been sending them emails for years please let Smith Wesson hear from you. www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/contact-us
I love the triggers on the old ones. My dad's gun stages beautifully, mine sorta breaks when it feels like it.
The lock is like putting a face tattoo on a supermodel.
Or a nose ring
Maybe, but would you kick her out of bed if the rest of the package was better than even a super model?
Couldn't agree more. Please be sure to tell them yourselves as well. www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/contact-us
On the J and K/L frame, they also need to change the curvature of the frame between the cylinder release and the hammer to accomodate the lock hole, that just ruined the overall look of the revolver. It's like your favorite supermodel is nice everywhere except now her waist is 6 inches bigger.
That comment is like a boomer on a computer.
I own my fair share of pre-lock/pre-MIM and Post MIM S&Ws, and can say without hesitation that I’d take a pre-lock/pre-MIM any day over a newer S&W, namely for the fit, finish, smoothness and general reliability. A number of my newer S&Ws have had to be returned to the factory for repairs (timing, barrel, fit and finish issues). For heavy shooting or stout loads, I’ll generally pull out the Ruger GP-100 over either generations of S&Ws.
Ive got an old S&WCombat Master Piece. Fine shooting hand gun. Got an old Colt Police Positive too. Both fine revolvers.
My buddys performance center had a timing issue on a cylinder. That should have never left the factory let alone the performance center
I agree 1000%.
I think the saddest part is that Taurus, of all companies, found a less gross way to do an internal lock than S&W. I own both and don't get too wound up one way or another, but the way the lock was executed is just downright shameful.
I believe that the older S&W revolvers were more thoroughly inspected by a skilled human being, by nature of the older build process. Automation economizes the build process and there are less process imperfections, but a higher percentage of imperfections escape detection.
Agreed, well said.
I have to agree with that. The quality control has dropped significantly. In Europe, it is extremely difficult to get a S&W revolver as they are usually sold out and have extremely long delivery times (9 months or longer). When you finally get your revolver and it is still a faulty gun, you have to complain about it and after about 9 months you get it back from the repair shop. This of course discourages a buyer from purchasing a revolver. That's why people here in Austria tend to buy pistols (GLOCK).
@@hanszarkov7807i see a lot of them around in norway but brand new ones have almost doubled in price the last few years and some models may be hard to find in stock
Great point. Fewer errors are made but most of those few make it out to the market without ever being seen by a human.
Great, well thought out video. I agree. Thanks!
I don’t love the locks, but I’ve never had trouble out of them. As far as I’m concerned, I’d rather shoot a new one loose than a classic anyway.
I love mine new and old. New ones are strong,smooth and the lock never made me miss a shot.
that's a good comment!!
Did this guy czcams.com/video/lzKh5Y0TaY0/video.html
I like Steve's approach. The old bluing is far better than new...
You said it, for sure!
Brownell's is an industry heavy hitter. Have you ever spoken with Smith and Wesson about how much the overwhelming number of consumers dislike the lock?
You think smith doesn’t know?
I can’t afford the new ones; mine are all 80’s and 70’s and I have no complaints.
Those where the best vintage. Peak engineering, skilled human craftsmanship and metallurgy.
Thank you both for your advice. Great Series.
Another video ended with a syncro-slurp. Good review. Thanks for the information.
Great video! Comparing the craftsmanship to better and stronger materials is a great video for brownells. Lots to consider when purchasing this day and age. Definitely love a model 29 someday 😉 thanks for the info!
I have a 29-2 .44mag with the 6.5in barrel that was made in 1972. It was my grandfather's gun. He gave it to me in 1990. Beautiful gun. I have never been able to bring myself to shoot it.
Great video, gentlemen, and I thank you both. Here’s an example to prove your “booth great” thesis. I own three Smith, f0ve-inch barrel, N Frame .357 magnums: a wonderful 27-2 and two Special Edition 627s. They’re all great, all can easily outshoot me, all are very well manufactured and designed, exhibiting the highest accuracy, quality, durability and reliability. I frequently carry a 627, but I always admire the 27-2.
You would expect any manufacturer to improve if they plan on staying in business , sadly in America it’s not always the case ! Cost cutting can have dire consequences , the worst you can do is cut cost and increase the price of a product with less quality , reputation is everything in this business !
I swore I'd never buy a S&W when they aligned with anti-handgun lobbyists way back in the late 80's; when they were sold to a British plumbing comply company... And of course introduced the most useless POS on a firearm in recorded history (a lock on a revolver, of all choices) ... I've held strong but S&W has made it easy honestly...to me S&W is as dead as "colt" which is nothing but a trademark at this point.
Hot/// YEAH,LOOK AT THE COLT PYTHONS,STARTED OUT AS TOTAL JUNK,BRAND NEW OUT OF THE BOX AND WOULDN'T WORK!!!!!!!
@@libtardgunlover762 "Cost cutting is the result of improved technology and manufacturing."
Not always, in fact probably not in most cases. The worst is products on amazon where you buy something that is great, a few years down the line you buy the same thing, either because you want another, or for a friend or relative and it's a complete pile of junk. I have realized that this is an amazon seller (china) strategy. Make something nice, sell it for a while and get good reviews, then replace all the parts/materials with the cheapest you can find after you get good review. If you get negative reviews offer the reviewer another product for free if they change their reviews.
@@libtardgunlover762 Your "handle" says it all. ;-)
I can’t get past the aesthetics of the sleeved barrels on new Smith & Wesson revolvers. Sorry, I don’t know if it’s all models or just some, but I just don’t like the look.
Thank you for this video. I own 6 S&W Revolver's so far. I own both older and newer models. I agree with you, my biggest gripe about the newer models is the lock.
Barrel canting and the lock is a pretty big problem with the new ones for me.
I have an M27, a 686+ and 2 M19. I take all 4 to the range. When one starts getting hot I put it down and pickup another. I will admit that I generally shoot .38 Special through the K Frames. I just love the L & N Frames with full magnum loads; but then I love any gun that throws such a fireball that at close range it'll cauterize the exit wound. Great video, please keep them coming!
Great video Love the revolvers Thank you
the m1917 revolvers are pretty darn well built. I've never seen a revolver more well crafted than a smith and wesson in long colt .45 from end of 1890s.
The S&W New Century "Triple Lock" revolvers were so well crafted that Smith couldn't even afford to keep making them for more than a few years.
@@ostiariusalpha That's really interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Bought a "newer" 629 , with the lock, and oiled it up and while dry firing it, to break it in, just like I have done on multiple firearms in the past, and it completely locked up. Could not pull the trigger back or single action cock it. Took it in to warranty center and when I went to pick it up the smith showed me the tiny internal MIM parts that broke. Very glad it happened while dry firing and not in a self defense situation.
I do not think MIM parts are as good as the old forged ones even though they say they are better now.
Had the same happen with my 629 and 640PRO.
Replace with TK CUSTOM parts, which you can polish. Not advised to try to polish MIM parts for trigger jobs.
Inherited a pre-model 10 from my grandfather. You won't be finding a double action trigger any better than this ! American made equipment in the late 1940's is hard to equal at any price.
Due fairness to your pre-M10 Military & Police, it's had over@ 70 years of potential use to naturally smooth the lock works. I still agree that pre-lock Smith's are better quality. I recently bought a Model 10-5 and will not part with it until my time on Earth is finished.
A gun like that will last for many lifetimes...it’s sad,technology has improved greatly since then but the quality of products has plummeted..just look at all the old TVs,electrical appliances,power tools,cars,etc that are still going strong today..these days when you buy a new freezer,oven,tv,air conditioner,etc you are lucky if lasts a decade
I love my sw wheelguns, but take issue with the excessive barrel cylinder gap on some of my new ones. Case in point, 686-6 had 007" gap on left side of gun, and 013" gap on right side. (yes, I measured both sides, because it blew so violently, even with 38 rounds) I sent it back to sw, they replaced the 6" barrel and slicked up the action. Well done and thanks to sw.👍
I like the look of my old S&W's. I load 44 cal, 200gr hollow-points to about 1200fps never had an issue with performance. In 44 or 45 you don't need full house loads to hunt. Full house loads will eventually loosen up most revolvers.
I own an old model 66 And a new 629 and I love them both. Best revolver triggers I have ever used, the 44magnum 629 is SCARY smooth in single action, you just THINK of pulling the trigger and it goes off!
I got a old model 10-6 in mint..That gun is niceeeee..
When I was still working for Oshman's more than a decade ago we got the special run of satin finished, high polished cylinder 5" full lugged barrel model 25 in .45 Colt & I am STILL bashing my head against available solid objects for not picking one up when I had the chance. It was without a doubt the bet fitted & finished revolver short of the 1980's era Colt Custom Shop Python. That Smith, which was running under $700 at the time, if my addled brain recollects correctly, was AMASING across the board. Oh the folly's of youth. I didn't even mind the Lock, the gun was that gorgeous & properly tuned.
No doubt in my mind - if the prices are the same and there is a new Smith and an old (pinned/recessed) Smith in the gun store's case, I will most certainly buy the vintage revolver.
I still wish they recessed cylinders, the barrel pins I don't care for so much but loading up my pre-28 highway patrolman feels cleaner than the newer guns.
I handled a 27-9 recently. The bright finish was superb. The rifling was kinda C+. Shallow, and not a sharp corner anywhere on the lands. Looks like a new J Frame where they soften the rifling so as not to build pressure, allowing the +P rating.
My recent S&W purchases have been all trash. I won't buy another one...nor will my friend. Both have been back multiple times to S&W repair...and still not fixed.
I sure do liked the prices back in the days.
What I paid currently for my S&W M66, back in the days bought me three S&W's, my M29, M686 and a M4506
I purchased a Smith Thunder ranch model 22-4 , the 45acp ,new , when it was first introduced , 30 rounds in , cylinder latch falls off , Locktite repaired that , 50 rounds later , trigger return spring breaks , , had it repaired by a police department armorer (40years experience), the bluing is patchy , looks like something I’d do , but it has the thunder ranch logo on the grips , all of this for about 800.00 , back in about 2007 (don’t remember exactly ) , very disappointing . I’ve never fired it since .
Great video
I like the Smith .38 model 10-6, heavy barrel. Would you consider doing a commentary on this gun. Semper Fi
Got a Model 13-1(P&R'd) and 29-10...I'm right in that zone and couldn't agree more.
I wish they’d bring the 8 3/8 barrel back
There's as much new demand for the classic 8 3/8" gun barrel as there is for the Buntline Special.
I like the new revolvers, except for the MIM parts, and I hate the lock. The older revolvers generally had better triggers.
Go sell an old and new one of the same model and I think you'll find your answer.
Indeed
I like the quality and finish on the older S&W.
The locks don't seem to bother me all that much except for the looks. When my children were young an open cylinder and a Master padlock worked for me
What about the 25-5? I inherited one from my dad and it looks great but I haven't shot it for groups
I purchased an older Smith in .41 Magnum. It has the two "E's" for a pistol , excellent to shoot,and expensive to shoot.
I sold a very early model 58 about 3 years ago , “S” prefix serial number which I believe was an early production , Had the diamond checkered serial number match grips I should have probably kept it ,seeing what they’re bringing now , live and learn
Just got a 27-2 357 mag and this is nice to confirm my acquisition.
I can relate. My S&W Model 64-7 out shot my classic 64-1. Both still great guns. I carry the 64-7 concealed regularly.
Every new S&W I've bought in the last decade I've ended up selling very quickly after shooting ...just not as good as my older S&Ws. I've not given up on S&W but Ive stopped actively shopping for them when I'm looking for a revolver.
👍
I am so disappointed with these guys. In one video they lost all credibility in my book.
Smith & Wesson QC personnel are asleep on the job!! No doubt about it!!
I carried a Smith & Wesson model 66 (357 magnum) for many years thousands of rounds qualifying, and practice. I never had any problems. But, I have heard of some with forcing cone cracking with a steady diet of the 357 Magnum hot loads. (I"ll stick to my model 66, Very smooth from years of shooting)
Awesome 👍 brother
Sent more customer's larger hard hitting caliber guns back to smith for lock issues . Some fit and finish on the newer guns were terrible, check out some S&W forums.
I have heard the same issue.
are the S & W EZ shields cracked recalled hammers mim ?
Any gun that goes boom , is a good GUN.
I love these two
Bought a new 686 SSR about a year ago. 3/4 of the way through its first box- dead hammer. Took it apart- the hammer spring "head" that connects to the hammer sheered off. 1 off lemon? Maybe. My old duty gun, a 65-3 from 1978 ha s god knows how many rounds through it- still runs. Same for my 19-4 from 1979.
How about forged frames vs. cast? How about doing away with the front lock on the ejector rod? How about the difference -- sometimes in the "noticeable" category and sometimes huge -- between the old and new out-of-box trigger break?
Oh, yeah,,,, who pays attention to that stuff anyway? S&W can’t make 50 cents if you buy an old classic S&W revolver,.Choices..LOL 😂 ...
Want all that? Then step up and pay. Shooter whine yet when checkbook time comes, wimp out.
@@WALTERBROADDUS ->I’m thinking he meant we got all of that great stuff on the old S&W pistols, but not the new ones.
Smith makes a cast frame?
I like my 629 no dash and my 27-2. Both habe 8 3/8 inch Barrel. Amazing Guns. Greetings from Austria
What about cracking the forcing cones on older k frame smiths when shooting 357?
I’ve heard it’s only an issue with light weight 357 projectiles because of how the bullet tappers and the speed and others say it won’t happen and others say it happens to all of them with a steady diet of 357.
It happened. The forcing cone was shaved slightly, made for a weak spot. I have heard so long as you dont run 125g 357s you are fine.
@@theeasternfront6436 that’s what I’ve heard also. I have a new 686+ and a vintage model 19 square butt pinned and recessed model and I’d like to shoot some 357 in it with out hurting it but mostly it’s a safe queen.
Good Video!!!!!! I always take any New Revolver to my Gunsmith and HAVE THAT DAMN LOCK (HILLARY HOLE) REMOVED!!!!!!
Why? There is nothing wrong with the lock. Just whining about it.
My dad has some old Smiths, some with no dash some with a low number after the dash. They are very beautiful and they shoot amazing. I have a 500 S&W and that gun has a nice trigger, its more accurate than me, and its well built. I shoot my new smith but I lust after the old ones.
S&W M&P Shield EZ has a recall for firing without the trigger being pulled. And will do a mag dump like a full auto. Only with no control. Check the website for details.
Damn,that’s a horrible accident just waiting to happen
I had both of my S&W revolvers fail on me. A 1986 Model 10 and a Model 36. Both failed thankfully while training and not in a gunfight. First one was the Model 10 and the armorer was able to get me up and running again to qualify after lunch. It went out of timing and needed a new pawl arm and cylinder star. A few years later my Model 36 had the same out of timing issue but needed to be sent to S&W for repair. The frame pin that held the hammer was also loose. A week later they sent my gun back......so I thought. They decided my gun was beyond repair and sent a new one to me without asking me if I wanted it. The Model 36 was a graduation gift from my parents and saved me during an attempted Grand Larceny Auto and shootout in Brooklyn so it had sentimental value to me. To make matters worse the new gun they sent was not the same. It no longer conformed to same standards and I was not authorized to carry it. I called S&W and they actually built me a new "Old Style" Model 36 with a hammer nose firing pin after they were fazed out for an internal firing pin.
More recently they also repaired a customer's .460 Magnum that had internal parts failure but sent back another customer's gun because it was not an easy fix.
But I will credit them with sending me all the parts free of charge to do the extensive repair.
He is a retired NYC Corrections Officer and did not want another firearm. It was a stainless 9mm but failed due to lack of regular maintenence.
Now my Model 10 is out of commission again and needs a replacement hammer nose but is not available and considered obsolete......lol
Just like Harry Callahan said “ go ahead, make my day”
My JM 625 runs sooooooo smooth. Eats everything super tight, super smooth. Wifey calls it Bertha. 👍😎🤘
I agree with the newer revolvers have the correct size throats and are more consistent. This really matters for good accuracy.
Wow a really good one, some years ago I bought one of the new 29's, and did so without the brain-eroding research I always put myself under, before purchasing anything. Thank you so much for the video!
On another note, will you ever share the secret about this absolute inability to age you gents got? What's it about, com'on... sleeping in the fridge? Formaldehyde for breakfast? Come'on guys, my hair isn't waiting! hahaha! Cheers and Happy Holidays!
Please do a video on old model 14 dan wesson .44s
What is your opinion on the new, small, 69 .44 mag for durability? That is a lot of oomph in a small package.
Hey, I got to say. Nice haircut! Looks good
That lock is so gross.
yep tell them to remove it. I will not buy another smith with a lock. www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/contact-us
It’s yucky
What about the newer barrel set up compared to the older models?
The lock is literally my only issue with new Smiths.
When I want something to shoot a lot I buy Ruger
GP-100 , Security Six are very very good .
@@edwardautrey3671 I totally agree
I just got a Model 65-4 4”. I’ve heard to be careful shooting too much .357 through it because the cones are thinner on the bottom. What does the community say?
I'd love to have that revolver in 45 long colt, you guys don't have lay-a-way plans do you? 😁
Damn I wanted to see an 1800s S&W vs a new one
never mentioned the triggers. Take my old model trigger nay day. otherwise great video. thanks.
oops, that's any day (:
Older Smith revolvers usually have really smooth triggers from being shot for decades. New Smiths, like any other new handgun, have stiff triggers. A trigger job or a case of ammo can go a long ways to smoothing them out... That is, if you can afford to shoot your new Smith after your procurement of ammo!
My main concern/complaint is the Lawyer-inspired locking design. To me, that's 99% of stiff trigger problem! De-lawyer the design and the problems go away!!!
Was there a time when your findings weren’t true?
I haven’t bought in a while, about ten years. I heard around ten years ago the new S&W’s were lacking.
I hope you guys are correct for current production, I have an itch. ;-)
Flexing that 419 press lol
What about model 10’s?
Prior to being nearly discontinued @1986, Model 10 Military & Police set a standard of excellence for mid size (for S&W K Frame) for decades. Only Colt rivaled them for the American market for Double action revolvers before going through a series of bankruptcies.
..just bought a 1977 era mod 66 with a 2 1/2 in bbl..pinned, not recessed..for $450 from a fellow collector
MIM parts?
Try to get an old one fixed if a part is broken. That turns in to a custom shop job because they do not inventory those old parts anymore.
I have old and I have new and I definitely like the old better. Nothing wrong with the new, but the old ones man, you can just feel it in the action that more time was spent on the hand fitting of parts. The wood on the old stocks is much better and truth be told, I haven't had 1 single problem with my 629-2 (Pre-Endurance package). I mean, I'm not looking for the hottest loads, it's a 44 magnum for crying out loud and standard magnum loads are fine and all that's needed.
Now I do like to mirror polish my revolvers and when I say mirror polish, I mean mirror polish as in 12-16 hours for a single gun and I've noticed the metal on the newer ones polishes better and quicker for whatever reason. I hate the aesthetics of the darn lock on the new one's but it's not a complete deal breaker as they shoot great.
Old is better though because of the amount of time the old one's actually spent in the hands of those old gunsmiths getting everything fit tight and right. It's as if a part of their soul went into those old revolvers.
I've had a few new Smiths in my hands and I've always found something wrong with them. Smith seems aware of this and has a good service policy but it is not without its shortcomings. I traded in for an 80's 581 and haven't looked back.
Jerry Miculek doesn't have any problem with new S&W revolvers!
Best to ya',,,,!
I like these videos, but the sound levels on the voices is a bit low in this one.
Thank goodness someone else noticed too
I was worried my hearing had just gotten worse
I can agree with that....
My Lew Horton Smith and Wesson model 624 Combat Special 3 inch throated barrel N Frame is a gem
people underestimate the 44 special Factory loads ,and the knock down force they have .
it was sub contracted to do trigger job .
modern speedloaders with a little practice are auto fast.
with a cylinder bevel job i did my self including a bigger drill bit to carefully bevel the timing
table between teeth that you cant do on 8 shot cylinder.
even though they did a recall on cylinders the cheaper metal got put into the side plates
where it didnt matter .
its crome molly construction is solid enough to cut down shells of 44 mag up to 240 grain
1500 feet per second and put 100 plus rounds through it .
and its still tight .
but 44 special is where its at .
and yess it shoots 44 special way better than any 44 mag its a race car
You would be hard pressed to find its equal let alone a armorer.to dial in a revolver
The way the gunsmiths did on mine .
I even wrapped the trigger guard on mine without getting hit by blast and throated 3 inch barrel
burns all the powder 0 flash on end shooting mags
but it did take the hide off trigger finger where it wraps the trigger
I shoot nothing but eye slots in ipsca .
And the 5 shot guns have a kick
the only jiggle I feel is the hammer drop lol
I bought one of the new 629 .44 mag revolvers and am totally delighted with it. For accuracy it compares well to my original Colt Python. I in particular like the rubber grips that came on it. I have shot some of the "defense" loads they sell that are pretty hot as well as a few boxes of "regular" .44 mag. Even shooting one handed it is very controllable and does not "bite" me. My old and much loved Colt Python was always a bugger with those wood grips when shooting stiff magnum loads. Very very happy with my S&W 629. Hey back to edit my comment. Today I got out the old Python and the new 629 and put some rounds on paper. Just some off hand shooting and I got old eyes but the 629 grouped very near as well as the Python. I would not hesitate to hunt deer with either one with a nod to the .44's bigger bang.
Yeah ... pretty much all I have to add boys is yeah , sounds right to me .
What I didn’t here you talk that much about the trigger. The new trigger isn’t as smooth as the old ones or as light personal opinion.
I know this isn’t true for all of them, but man I got lucky on mine. I would put it against any of the older rigs. It is fantastic.
Short answer is hell yes.
I agree with Steve but for a different reason.
It's the carry aspect - why you don't carry 6 rounds in the cylinder for a 6-shooter whose hammer also strikes the primer. Hickok45 explains this perfectly.
Many of the models ( 28 for instance ) are no longer made. Being fond of the beefy model 28, I have to buy used - which, for me, is not an issue.