I agree with most of what you said, but I want to mention that Rippetoe doesn't prescribe 5x5 for beginners. "Starting Strength" is a 3x5 protocol. I believe he has a 5x5 day on the "Texas Method" which is designed for intermediate folks.
I think this mindset of never doing high reps polutes the training of powerlifters for life in a lot of cases. I have several friends at the gym who are current or former competitive powerlifters at a pretty high level (at least regionally competitive and potentially able to qualify for nationals), and they never go above 5 reps on their compounds. It's really quite insane, even in the offseason! I was doing a 3x8 on squats one day and one of the guys was like "that's a lot of volume." I told him I was building my work capacity and was months out from my peak, and he just stared at me blankly. A lot of them are just doing a cookie cutter DUP that never goes above 5-6 reps. I also notice these guys really struggle with body composition and do no cardio or mobility work. They spam the comp movements year-round and then throw in some AMRAP curls and call themselves powerbuilders. I come from more of a bodybuilding background and still consider my primary goal bodybuilding, but I do a lot of high rep compounds with more of a hypertrophy-specific technique. My main quad movement is a tempo Platz squat for sets of 8-12. I just came out of a peaking block, and I was huffing and puffing today!
I agree with a lot of what you said. I enjoyed using 5x5 as a set and rep scheme (coupled with 3x10's or 5x10 dropsets) since linear progression is dog-brain easy to track progression. Also, once I hit 5x5 with ~95% of my 1rm (usually around week 6) it was time for a deload and I'd run it all again. In 6-ish months i managed to take my bench from 225 to 315 and my squat from 335 to a little over 405. I was mainly doing typical bodybuilding stuff for like 5 years on and off so, for me, 5x5 was a decent introduction to a powerlifting-ish mentality of training and helped reignite a passion for the gym.
I don't know if it's just me. When I was doing 5x5, it was never good for me to practice my form. Yes, linear progression is the best way to increase weight which is actually the last thing you need as a beginner. I reached my plateau really quickly when I do these programs. I kept leaning forward at my squat, kept "pulling" the deadlift. Yes, people will say "Oh 5x5 told you to keep your form correct" But the fact is that, it's actually very hard to tell the beginner when to push harder, how to keep form correct with an increased weight. After I went with a program with periodization. It just went different. Since I got a lighter weight with high rep at the beginning stage, and also exercise like pin squat, pause deadlift,etc. I was really able to practice my form, find the correct way to do these exercises. And it started to make me progressing again.
I've just started on a gym about 2 km away from my house, to which I go walking every morning, first thing after waking up (and drinking some water, dressing adequately, etc.). My routine is a 3s-15r full body workout, it goes: bench press (machine) → fly machine (aka peck deck) → overhead push (dumbbell) → rower machine (seated high row) → rower machine (seated chest-height row) → triceps overhead curl (dumbbell) → supinated biceps curl (dumbbell) → squat (dumbbell, front) → seated leg curl (machine) → leg extension (machine) → seated calf raise (machine, plate). It finishes with 3s of isometric planks. Does it look good? Today was my 5th day. I noticed my right shoulder makes a crackling, sand-like sensation when I'm lowering the weights during the overhead push, and my right elbow makes a clicking, snappy sensation during the lowering of the weights during the biceps curl. As of now, I'm trying to figure out what it is, especially the shoulder one, I think I should work a little on my rotator cuffs. All informed commentaries are welcome. Thanks to everyone in advance.
Not being a coach, I can say that doing the 5x5 did help me get stronger. But so did doing Dan Johns 30 Day Mass building program from a men’s health book I picked up when I first started lifting. I think that with adequate effort, you can see gains on just about any program. Are there better ways to go about it? Sure. I don’t think 5x5 should be a life long endeavor, but it’s not bad to run, especially when you’ve had a little time under the bar.
For rank beginners who want to look better naked and DON'T WANT TO BE OVERWHELMED, i think 5x5 is good because it's simple. 3 exercises twice a week big bang boom I know you can make it better with 3x8 and 4x12 and add curls and whatever, but as far as simplicity, it's hard to beat those 5x5 programs I agree with you that they're def not ideal for beginners but most beginners who don't love training yet, don't want to be "scared off" by seeing many other exercises so I can see the utility.
They're simple, sure. But Beginner B may not see the exact same progress that Beginner A saw with the 5x5 programs, as it really depends on the person, their leverages, and their ability to grow from lifting heavy weights. I think if you follow a free 5x5 program, you have a decent chance of getting strong over a certain period of time. But there comes a certain point where you must add other exercises to round out your physique and help break sticking points for the big 3 lifts. That's why Brendan mentioned doing higher rep ranges in the beginning of the video, if you start with 5x5 then your baseline reps are only up to 5 whereas if you start with doing sets of 8-12 on compounds you will develop work capacity and build a base. Focusing higher reps makes doing 5's a whole lot easier.
I did Starting Strength as a complete beginner to barbell training (some previous calisthenics). I got to a 4 plate deadlift for 5 reps, and a decent squat and bench. Kinda weak Press. But at that point, after just a few months, I was cooked. The good thing is that the program lets you learn the basics though frequent exposure. But by the end, I often found myself wishing for the blessing of death on the 2nd rep on my 1st out of 3 sets of 5. But somehow, you muster enough discipline to push through it. And you cannot not develop an ability to grind and train HARD. The biggest downside for me was that it took a long time to unlearn the mentality of "I NEED TO PUSH HARDER TO PROGRESS!" To this day I still feel bad sometimes if a training session does not kick my ass. Of course this lead to overuse injury in the past. And the 2nd downside is that when you pick up the next program, when it has Sumo DL, High Bar Squats, Rack Pulls, Pin Bench Press and RPE + accessories and some conditioning, you just feel like the ultimate dummy who has yet to really learn anything
This beginner program it’s way better than many of the programs that are advanced from all these fitness influencers selling coaching. And I would argue this program it’s even great for an intermediate lifter. And it’s free.
I suppose 5x5 is good combination of hypertrophy, strength and techniqal work which is all important for a biginner and allows to train all of that at the same time
it is much better to do two different exercises for the same muscle group, for example bench press 3 sets 4-6 rep range than 3 sets incline dumbbell press in 10 12 rep range you can even do 3 different exercises with different aiming and rep range more than 3 sets with the same exercises variation with low rep is bad much better to do 3 sets and than next 3 sets do high reps with different exercises for the same muscle group Starting strenght it is very good for old peoples like 60+ just do deadlift squats and bench press so you dont end up with diapers on the bed
Im a seasoned lifter and my current programme Raw Power has a 5x5 component to it for the Heavy Days for the first 4 weeks of a 16 week cycle. They then change to 6x4, 7,3 etc etc. I really hate 5x5 basically because im lazy. I hate higher reps even more, but agree that higher reps definitely help increasing my strength. Ive done these on different orogrammes and have had good success. Keep up the great content mate. Its awesome you invite others to voice their views as this helps us all to grow (pun intended) and increase our knowledge base. Brudder from down udder.
That program periodizes which I like! I think 5x5 is a tad overkill but at least the scheme periodizes! Strong lifts is highly repetitive and starting strength so minimal/repetitive. The key with high reps is starting ultra light like even 50% ! Cheers brother!
Idk if it's just me but something I've experienced with 3x5 and 5x5 cookie cutter programs is that when i begin the linear progression, i can feel all the muscles involved in movement like the Squat work together. As i progress and the weight gets heavy, i notice that some of the muscles involved, start to bail out because the weight gets too heavy and then the other muscles involved have to carry more load. The week after, i increase the weight again and now this problem gets worse. At that point it seems that I've lost that concert between all the muscles and it's now some muscles and a lot more joint and cns getting the job done. I could be crazy but when i get to this point it feels that i regress because those muscles that begin to bail out stop getting the stress necessary to adapt. So i reset, get that concert back, and then run up until i find myself in the same predicament.
Al Gore Rythm comment. Talking about free programs: finishing block 1 of your old free DUP program and it's great. There are no prescribed deloads, but even though each new block starts fairly easy RPE-wise, I'm playing it safe and deloading next week. Only 4 weeks in and I'm already hitting rep PRs that I was hitting at the end of my previous peak orior to a cut, 8 lbs heavier than I am now. Very excited for blocks 2 and 3. One thing about the group coaching: you should make an announcement several weeks prior to onboarding, so people are aware and can finish off a current program and "wait" for it to start. Otherwise, I'm confused as to how it works. If someone joins TODAY, are they essentially joining mid-program?
One thing i noticed after doing GVT was that for months after i wasnt sore for more than a day no matter how heavy i lifted. I gained absolutely zero strength from it, but i gained a btween 7 and 10 kg in weight and capable of lifting higher intensities for longer duration and not hanging out my arse afterwards.
I remember how criminally overrated 5x5 was back in the day😀 I was doing it over and over and was very annoyed and surprised that I plateaued hard after couple months😀 diminishing returns is a thing , fellas
I like to start my 16 year old son on an general bodybuilding 5-10 week block before going to a 5x5 block that he does for the main lifts until he don't have gains any more usually 4-5 weeks. But during the 5x5 block we do a plus set on the last set. The second lift it's and acessory for the main lift. I use that to regulate volume togheter with the plus set. Sometimes it's one set sometimes 3. The second day for the main lift variation is a higher volume day during this phase but I don't push that to hard. The third block is 5x3 + 5x2 on different intensitys levels the with a coupel of off sets on the first day. Again I normally only push the first day. During this block the numbers of accesories continue to drop. The last 2 weeks he only does 3x3 or 3x4 with the 3 main lifts. Volume is crazy low now. But he has made som really good gains during his first 10 months of training like this and it's easy to keep him focused this way and training is varied. I sprinkel some plyos during the last two blocks to make him more atletic. Between every block there is a low volume restoring week. During the first 10 monthis his gains have been hughe (around 200-300% mark) on the main lifts and he has lost around 30 pounds of fat. Got to love em newbie gains. He still needs to loose an additional 30 pounds but I don't worry to much. He has some great years ahead with increased natural hormone levels and he needs to have energy to train and stay free from injury. I'lI check his form on every lift. When he has techniqual failiure we adjust accordingly. Rest is increased , maybe I'll give him one cue to focus on , might even put a belt on him or simply call It today. It depends on why he has the failiure.
What?!? I'm the first to comment?? Loving the content bro and my wife got me a ton of Barbell Apparel for Christmas....love the clothing line! Hope all is well.
I took the starting strength kool aid for way too long. In my opinion, it's a good program for 6 months to get used to pushing heavy weights and getting your bodyweight up. Beyond that, I am very disappointed I wasted nearly two years with these charlatans who basically just want you to spam deadlifts, presses and chin-ups and become fat.
I agree with most of what you said, but I want to mention that Rippetoe doesn't prescribe 5x5 for beginners. "Starting Strength" is a 3x5 protocol. I believe he has a 5x5 day on the "Texas Method" which is designed for intermediate folks.
5x5 style of training helped me as a complete beginner to reach 315 bench, 395 squat, 450 deadlift in under a year /shrug
I think this mindset of never doing high reps polutes the training of powerlifters for life in a lot of cases. I have several friends at the gym who are current or former competitive powerlifters at a pretty high level (at least regionally competitive and potentially able to qualify for nationals), and they never go above 5 reps on their compounds. It's really quite insane, even in the offseason!
I was doing a 3x8 on squats one day and one of the guys was like "that's a lot of volume." I told him I was building my work capacity and was months out from my peak, and he just stared at me blankly. A lot of them are just doing a cookie cutter DUP that never goes above 5-6 reps.
I also notice these guys really struggle with body composition and do no cardio or mobility work. They spam the comp movements year-round and then throw in some AMRAP curls and call themselves powerbuilders.
I come from more of a bodybuilding background and still consider my primary goal bodybuilding, but I do a lot of high rep compounds with more of a hypertrophy-specific technique. My main quad movement is a tempo Platz squat for sets of 8-12. I just came out of a peaking block, and I was huffing and puffing today!
Where’s the beginner guide you mentioned in your video?
There doesn't seem to be a link to the free program. Couldn't find it on your site either. Keen to check it out!
I agree with a lot of what you said. I enjoyed using 5x5 as a set and rep scheme (coupled with 3x10's or 5x10 dropsets) since linear progression is dog-brain easy to track progression. Also, once I hit 5x5 with ~95% of my 1rm (usually around week 6) it was time for a deload and I'd run it all again. In 6-ish months i managed to take my bench from 225 to 315 and my squat from 335 to a little over 405.
I was mainly doing typical bodybuilding stuff for like 5 years on and off so, for me, 5x5 was a decent introduction to a powerlifting-ish mentality of training and helped reignite a passion for the gym.
I don't know if it's just me.
When I was doing 5x5, it was never good for me to practice my form.
Yes, linear progression is the best way to increase weight which is actually the last thing you need as a beginner.
I reached my plateau really quickly when I do these programs.
I kept leaning forward at my squat, kept "pulling" the deadlift.
Yes, people will say "Oh 5x5 told you to keep your form correct"
But the fact is that, it's actually very hard to tell the beginner when to push harder, how to keep form correct with an increased weight.
After I went with a program with periodization. It just went different.
Since I got a lighter weight with high rep at the beginning stage, and also exercise like pin squat, pause deadlift,etc.
I was really able to practice my form, find the correct way to do these exercises.
And it started to make me progressing again.
I've just started on a gym about 2 km away from my house, to which I go walking every morning, first thing after waking up (and drinking some water, dressing adequately, etc.).
My routine is a 3s-15r full body workout, it goes: bench press (machine) → fly machine (aka peck deck) → overhead push (dumbbell) → rower machine (seated high row) → rower machine (seated chest-height row) → triceps overhead curl (dumbbell) → supinated biceps curl (dumbbell) → squat (dumbbell, front) → seated leg curl (machine) → leg extension (machine) → seated calf raise (machine, plate). It finishes with 3s of isometric planks.
Does it look good? Today was my 5th day. I noticed my right shoulder makes a crackling, sand-like sensation when I'm lowering the weights during the overhead push, and my right elbow makes a clicking, snappy sensation during the lowering of the weights during the biceps curl. As of now, I'm trying to figure out what it is, especially the shoulder one, I think I should work a little on my rotator cuffs. All informed commentaries are welcome. Thanks to everyone in advance.
Not being a coach, I can say that doing the 5x5 did help me get stronger. But so did doing Dan Johns 30 Day Mass building program from a men’s health book I picked up when I first started lifting. I think that with adequate effort, you can see gains on just about any program. Are there better ways to go about it? Sure. I don’t think 5x5 should be a life long endeavor, but it’s not bad to run, especially when you’ve had a little time under the bar.
For rank beginners who want to look better naked and DON'T WANT TO BE OVERWHELMED, i think 5x5 is good because it's simple. 3 exercises twice a week big bang boom
I know you can make it better with 3x8 and 4x12 and add curls and whatever, but as far as simplicity, it's hard to beat those 5x5 programs
I agree with you that they're def not ideal for beginners but most beginners who don't love training yet, don't want to be "scared off" by seeing many other exercises so I can see the utility.
They're simple, sure. But Beginner B may not see the exact same progress that Beginner A saw with the 5x5 programs, as it really depends on the person, their leverages, and their ability to grow from lifting heavy weights. I think if you follow a free 5x5 program, you have a decent chance of getting strong over a certain period of time. But there comes a certain point where you must add other exercises to round out your physique and help break sticking points for the big 3 lifts. That's why Brendan mentioned doing higher rep ranges in the beginning of the video, if you start with 5x5 then your baseline reps are only up to 5 whereas if you start with doing sets of 8-12 on compounds you will develop work capacity and build a base. Focusing higher reps makes doing 5's a whole lot easier.
I did Starting Strength as a complete beginner to barbell training (some previous calisthenics).
I got to a 4 plate deadlift for 5 reps, and a decent squat and bench. Kinda weak Press. But at that point, after just a few months, I was cooked.
The good thing is that the program lets you learn the basics though frequent exposure.
But by the end, I often found myself wishing for the blessing of death on the 2nd rep on my 1st out of 3 sets of 5. But somehow, you muster enough discipline to push through it. And you cannot not develop an ability to grind and train HARD.
The biggest downside for me was that it took a long time to unlearn the mentality of "I NEED TO PUSH HARDER TO PROGRESS!"
To this day I still feel bad sometimes if a training session does not kick my ass. Of course this lead to overuse injury in the past.
And the 2nd downside is that when you pick up the next program, when it has Sumo DL, High Bar Squats, Rack Pulls, Pin Bench Press and RPE + accessories and some conditioning, you just feel like the ultimate dummy who has yet to really learn anything
This beginner program it’s way better than many of the programs that are advanced from all these fitness influencers selling coaching. And I would argue this program it’s even great for an intermediate lifter. And it’s free.
I suppose 5x5 is good combination of hypertrophy, strength and techniqal work which is all important for a biginner and allows to train all of that at the same time
it is much better to do two different exercises for the same muscle group, for example
bench press 3 sets 4-6 rep range than
3 sets incline dumbbell press in 10 12 rep range
you can even do 3 different exercises with different aiming and rep range
more than 3 sets with the same exercises variation with low rep is bad much better to do 3 sets and than next 3 sets do high reps with different exercises for the same muscle group
Starting strenght it is very good for old peoples like 60+ just do deadlift squats and bench press so you dont end up with diapers on the bed
Nice vid, I always felt that 5x5 was kinda off. Where can I find the free program?
It's in a video from a few years ago, just search "Brendan Tietz DUP Program" and in that video description there will be a link to it.
Im a seasoned lifter and my current programme Raw Power has a 5x5 component to it for the Heavy Days for the first 4 weeks of a 16 week cycle. They then change to 6x4, 7,3 etc etc. I really hate 5x5 basically because im lazy.
I hate higher reps even more, but agree that higher reps definitely help increasing my strength. Ive done these on different orogrammes and have had good success.
Keep up the great content mate. Its awesome you invite others to voice their views as this helps us all to grow (pun intended) and increase our knowledge base.
Brudder from down udder.
That program periodizes which I like! I think 5x5 is a tad overkill but at least the scheme periodizes! Strong lifts is highly repetitive and starting strength so minimal/repetitive.
The key with high reps is starting ultra light like even 50% !
Cheers brother!
Idk if it's just me but something I've experienced with 3x5 and 5x5 cookie cutter programs is that when i begin the linear progression, i can feel all the muscles involved in movement like the Squat work together. As i progress and the weight gets heavy, i notice that some of the muscles involved, start to bail out because the weight gets too heavy and then the other muscles involved have to carry more load. The week after, i increase the weight again and now this problem gets worse. At that point it seems that I've lost that concert between all the muscles and it's now some muscles and a lot more joint and cns getting the job done. I could be crazy but when i get to this point it feels that i regress because those muscles that begin to bail out stop getting the stress necessary to adapt. So i reset, get that concert back, and then run up until i find myself in the same predicament.
How do you get to the free program 🤔 any help would be appreciated
On the free beginner program do we warm up to weight the execute the sets. Or the warm ups are included in the sets? Thank you for this 🙏🏾
I tried the PRs 15 week intermediate powerlifting program and I found it pretty solid and very enjoyable
Al Gore Rythm comment. Talking about free programs: finishing block 1 of your old free DUP program and it's great. There are no prescribed deloads, but even though each new block starts fairly easy RPE-wise, I'm playing it safe and deloading next week. Only 4 weeks in and I'm already hitting rep PRs that I was hitting at the end of my previous peak orior to a cut, 8 lbs heavier than I am now. Very excited for blocks 2 and 3.
One thing about the group coaching: you should make an announcement several weeks prior to onboarding, so people are aware and can finish off a current program and "wait" for it to start. Otherwise, I'm confused as to how it works. If someone joins TODAY, are they essentially joining mid-program?
5 x 5 was an early era programming and it might be good for beginners or off season, and after the big 3s we can add volume for accessories
Anyone got a link to the program Brendan mentions as its not in the description
One thing i noticed after doing GVT was that for months after i wasnt sore for more than a day no matter how heavy i lifted. I gained absolutely zero strength from it, but i gained a btween 7 and 10 kg in weight and capable of lifting higher intensities for longer duration and not hanging out my arse afterwards.
I remember how criminally overrated 5x5 was back in the day😀 I was doing it over and over and was very annoyed and surprised that I plateaued hard after couple months😀
diminishing returns is a thing , fellas
I like to start my 16 year old son on an general bodybuilding 5-10 week block before going to a 5x5 block that he does for the main lifts until he don't have gains any more usually 4-5 weeks. But during the 5x5 block we do a plus set on the last set. The second lift it's and acessory for the main lift. I use that to regulate volume togheter with the plus set. Sometimes it's one set sometimes 3. The second day for the main lift variation is a higher volume day during this phase but I don't push that to hard. The third block is 5x3 + 5x2 on different intensitys levels the with a coupel of off sets on the first day. Again I normally only push the first day. During this block the numbers of accesories continue to drop. The last 2 weeks he only does 3x3 or 3x4 with the 3 main lifts. Volume is crazy low now. But he has made som really good gains during his first 10 months of training like this and it's easy to keep him focused this way and training is varied. I sprinkel some plyos during the last two blocks to make him more atletic. Between every block there is a low volume restoring week. During the first 10 monthis his gains have been hughe (around 200-300% mark) on the main lifts and he has lost around 30 pounds of fat. Got to love em newbie gains. He still needs to loose an additional 30 pounds but I don't worry to much. He has some great years ahead with increased natural hormone levels and he needs to have energy to train and stay free from injury. I'lI check his form on every lift. When he has techniqual failiure we adjust accordingly. Rest is increased , maybe I'll give him one cue to focus on , might even put a belt on him or simply call It today. It depends on why he has the failiure.
What?!? I'm the first to comment?? Loving the content bro and my wife got me a ton of Barbell Apparel for Christmas....love the clothing line! Hope all is well.
Favorite son checking in to find out what to do instead!
Your approach pays off more the longer the athlete trains.
I took the starting strength kool aid for way too long. In my opinion, it's a good program for 6 months to get used to pushing heavy weights and getting your bodyweight up. Beyond that, I am very disappointed I wasted nearly two years with these charlatans who basically just want you to spam deadlifts, presses and chin-ups and become fat.
W
Madcow 5x5 is the only program that ever did anything for me whatsoever. 305/355/440 BSD @200LB bw