Deepmind 12 Vs Prophet 6: Why the huge price difference?
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- A look at why some synths are more expensive than others. The Prophet 6 is 3.5 x the cost of the Behringer Deepmind 12. Is one overpriced, or the other amazing value...?
From a practical perspective what are the differences and is the price difference really justified?
I'm not saying one is overpriced or the other is cheap or poor quality, I'm really trying to take a completely unbiased view of the differences.
If you can't get your hands on ether or both you may have wondered why yourself.... hopefully this can go some way to answering the question.
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Intro 0:00
Overview 1:07
Oscillators 5:02
VCO vs DCO 9:40
LPF 12:03
HPF 19:08
Effects 20:40
Simple Bass 24:40
PWM/Tone Mod 27:10
Some Sounds 29:50
Poly Mod 36:15
Summary 30:10
Behring Deepmind 12:
amzn.to/2NCTQEC
Deepmind desktop
amzn.to/2Tct8sx
Prophet 6 keyboard:
amzn.to/2GSEZoO
Prophet 6 desktop:
amzn.to/2EF28IZ - Krátké a kreslené filmy
One thing is clear. Even both of them are targeting different markets, Behringer hurts all the overpriced manufacturers like DSI. I saved the money to get the Pro6 and when I was about to hit the order button I came across the DM12. Instead spending 2.5k Euros on a Pro6 I got a DM12, a Neutron, a Model D, a Strymon Big Sky, a Eventide Timefactor and had some money left to buy my wife some sexy lingerie.
You could pass on lingerie and get some patch cables for Neutron instead
Haha.. brilliant.
@@mayk3l7 this made my day lol
That's a smart shopper right there. Most things in life are overpriced for the sake of being overpriced. I'm grateful that behringer and other companies like them do these things. I just ordered a DM12 today with the money I for some gear I traded in. Can not wait to begin using it.
Mr. Bourne Productions not overpriced. You just can’t afford it.
Comes down to this. I can justify the price of the Deepmind 12, while I can't justify buying the Prophet 6. Music is not my livelihood, its my hobby.
If livelihood, high price cuts into my "prophet" $$$💰
You summed it up nicely, bloke
I love all of these comparison videos you make.
I own (and LOVE) both of these synths. My $.02 as a composer and a designer of analog hardware and plugins:
1) the Prophet is capable of a much wider range of tones and colors. Deepmind can do all the 'patch types', but whether a pad or a bass or a stab, all of its sounds are a bit same-y in color.
2) the Prophet is bigger and more 'electric' sounding (its harmonics have more complexity and more energy), which makes it sit in a mix effortlessly, just set the filters correctly and it mixes itself. Deepmind usually needs a bit of processing, usually in the form of a small push in the mids and another, bigger one, in the presence frequencies.
3) Deepmind is better and more versatile for bass sounds, it just gets so fat and weighty down low. Prophet, on the other hand, has gorgeous 'chimey' sounds in its wheelhouse.
4) Deepmind has tons of features, but navigating and programming them can be cumbersome and tedious, while Prophet is immediate, fast, and generally rewarding, feels more like an instrument.
Overall, the Prophet is more special to my ears and is often the source of a song's 'signature' or most noteworthy sound(s). Deepmind is overflowing with bread and butter sounds that have the blessing and curse of being very familiar to everyone, but what it does it does very very well and it's value is beyond ridiculous.
I think this is a very good and fair reply. I'd like a deep mind, but because I own so many hybrid synths. Roland MKS 70, and wait for it 3 x Korg DW8000'! It makes sense for me to wait and save up for a fully VCO synth. (id get a berhinger ds 80 in a flash if they ever bring it out) Some people say Sequencial Circuits is over priced, but then try and buy a Moog One at £8500 aprox. One thing I can't understand is why the Korg Prologue is not being spoken of more often, this after all has 32 VCO oscillators! That alot for £1300 quid, I mean come on! Plus the additional 16 digital oscillators, that makes it as weighty as a Moog One, 48 in total, double the deepmind 12, and only aprox double the price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(or the same oscillator count, even if 16 of them are digital) which in my opinion makes it even better value oscillator for oscillator than a deep mind 12? But no one is talking about this? Remember a Moog One 16 voice costs £8500 u.k pounds aprox
Dear Starsky Carr could you do a Korg Prologue verses the Moog One caparison? Blessings and Happy New Year.
Ashearon Tiberius Alexander Oscillator count doesn’t mean much.
Even more, I couldn’t love a 6 OSCs/voices (+analog chorus) Alpha Juno by any means and I adored the 1 voice 2 oscillators SEM Pro even when using just 1 of them VS the Juno stacked voices or not, chorused or not. There was a night vs day difference.
Heck, the Waldorf Q sounded much more vital and organic than the Alpha using the same settings.
you sound like the people who think 432Hz sounds better. you really have drunk the coolaid my guy.
I agree totally. The P6 just immediately sounds signature. You pay the price for that. The Behringer is like paying Taco Bell money for so much in a menu, but yes it was overwhelming going over all the possibilities. Some people just want to play and compose and not spend days getting the right pad, lead or bass that modulates with multiple LFO's and effects that are modulated too.
@@wesleyleigh4063 yeah right "harmonics have more complexity and more energy" oof
Amazing video! Was going to say that the deepminds heavy resonance is exactly what I prefer, because it’s useful when you want to use the filter as a sine oscillator, which I love doing. The Juno 6 does a great job at this as well.
Thank you for another excellent demonstration. This comparison really makes the point that the more we understand synthesis, the more likely we are to get the sound we need out of almost any synth that we happen to have in front of us (or at least very close), regardless of the price. I’m inspired to dig deeper into the synths that I already own before getting the next new thing. Great job, sir.
Aint this the truth! Gear is a distraction from the art i say.
Thanks thats really helpful , I think that goes for any gear! (Specially thinking bout cameras as well)
Michael, any youtube channels that you think do a good job with this? Teaching synthesis theory and technique on synths like this?
@@bennett4senate I really like Starsky's demos because they aren't lessons, per se, but they are so detailed that they get you inspired to do your own explorations. So where you are right now is always a great place to be.
The one who I look to for more of a teaching experience is Automatic Gainsay. His tutorials are as deep as the ocean.
Nick Batt (sonic lab) is cool, because his demos are very musical and show you how to use synths in a pop context. Plus, he has created some really great tracks that were big hits in their time, like "Tom's Diner" by Suzanne Vega and "Strict Machine" by Goldfrapp.
Good luck. Keep learning, keep moving and never look back.
@@chunkystylemusic thanks Michael I'll check them out, much appreciated.
What a fantastic review! Love extensive use of oscilloscope, and super-knowledgeable and informative
Thank you so much for all of these comparison vids. You're a star!
Man I love my DM12. It's what the Juno would've been if it was made today. The Prophets & Oberheims are great too, but man.....the price tags are absurd. I'm not sure if it was your intention, but this video really brought into light the absurdity of Sequential's prices. Your videos kick ass! Thanks for your work.
Been eyeing a sequential trigon 6 for a while now but it's pricetag is ridiculous the 6 voices are also off putting 8 or 12 voices should be the standard for Synths in 2023 Behringer just released it's very powerful 16 voice UB-XA analogue synth and it sounds amazing I can buy 2 or 3 of those for the price of one trigon 6
The Oberheims were not that great. Out of tune and not that flexible. We got it good now! Fx is the sauce!
I have OB 6 and Prophet X and they did cost a lot but every time I start to use them I always get amazed how much I like (love)them!!
Excellent! This answered a lot of questions I had about the DM12.
Another hugely educational comparison!! Thank you!!
This is an extremely well done comparison, thanks for uploading. I must say though, the only thing I'd really miss from the p6 is the resonant hp filter. The sound was so similar, and I even prefer the DM in some ways. That being said if I had money to burn I'd buy the p6, simply because I'd know it would last. Behringer has such a poor history of quality control that I'm honestly worried about buying their stuff, but it does seem that their new analog synths are built well enough.
What an excellent breakdown. Doesn't try to sell us on either unit, just lays things out. I can see why the Dave Smith is worth more money, and I can see why the Behringer is a stunning value.
These videos are incredibly helpful, thank you
Thank you for all your very good comparisons !
Former strategy consultant here.
You must not forget the economics of a large corporation like Behringer being very different to DSI. They have cash cows hauling in huge amounts of money that they can then throw at the development of the DM12. They also already have massive manufacturing capacity at hand, and throwing in some effect is going to cost them next to nothing as the IP is already inhouse.
Lastly, I would not be surprised if Behringer subsidized the DM12 to help Behringer with entering an entirely new market.
The surreal McCoy This! It’s ridiculous to compare DSI and Behringer. One is a small “boutique “ company with a dozen employees and a manufacturing process mostly based in high wage USA, the other is a big multinational corporation with its own production facilities in China and its own distribution network in most countries. That alone pretty much accounts for a big price difference.
If behringer produce a synth that doesn’t sell well, it doesn’t hurt them. If DSI/sequential spent years and hundreds of thousand of dollars on developing a synth that flops, the whole company is at risk (this is what happened to DSI in the eighties). You gotta factor that in in the end price of your products.
All those stupid people accusing Sequential and similar smaller companies of “overpricing” have no idea what they’re talking about.
@@Am6-9 Yes.
Aaaannd: for most of the consumers, these economics do not count.
And honestly: While, as an ex-strategist I love what Behringer is doing (from a pure corp strategy perspective), I never seriously considered their products. Until I saw that the Crave is but 150€ where I live. So I went to a local store. They did not have the Crave but the Model D and the SH-101 clone. Quite frankly, I loved the sound, but I could not get over the built quality. Hardware costs a ton of money and a DSI product feels solid, and does not wobble. So it might be that a Behringer product with the same built quality as a DSI product would still be expensive. However, if I put myself in the shoes of my own broke 17-year old self (am 51 now) I would buy everything Behringer throws at me.
@@otisobl never played with any big boy synths but the model D feels solid to me.
Nothing matters but the sound.
Older synth guy here from late 80's, early 90's. If you're starting out and you want a polyphonic analog DCO synth, you can't do much better than the Deep Mind 12 for starters. You're not investing a ton of money. It's truly analog. It comes with built-in effects that can be modulated and saved as part of your patch. It integrates nicely with your modern studio workflow.
Can you buy better synths? Yes. But not at this price-point.
I would like to vouch for the Minilogue. It's my first synth and I've had it for around 3-4 years. Fantastic value. I cannot compare it to the Deepmind though as I've never tried, nor even seen one in person.
I have one 4 voice and one 64 voice synths. Yet I’m trying to finish most of the poly voice range with some 8 voice, 12 voice, and 16 voice polys . What pricier or replica/clone models would you recommend? I was interested in the DeepMind since it’s 12 already.
Also if you're starting out, don't spend thousands on an analog synth. Arturia plugs will get you very very close.
I would argue the hydrasynth despite it’s digital oscillators sounds ten times better
@@HiLoMusic I agree
I quite like the way you pulled these together and presented this.
Awesome Vid! I just got a Deepmind for my church & have never owned or used a synth in my life 😂. With that said this is opening a new world to me after playing keys for 15 years so thanks for showing me even more possibilities!
William Hood wonderful! I can just imagine how funky your church is going to sound now 👍🏻
Really good point that Roland was the budget synth maker in the 70s and 80s, I'd not thought of it like that, Behringer is like a modern day Roland.
I love my DM12. I was sad when it started to freeze up randomly. And I was really thinking about buying a new one, as it was over a year (and I thought out of waranty) and I couldn’t find the receipt. When I contacted the service center, they were like: “it has a 3 year warranty and this fix is pricy as we need to swap the main board. So contact your store and see if they have a copy of the receipt. If not call behringer and they can work something out with all of us. But the store (who’s gone bankrupt but had a restart) produced my receipt. And it was fixed and works like a charm again.
I perhaps dig it even more than my JP8000
My dm12 is now out of warranty and the usb and midi ports have lost all functionality. The lcd has gotten very dim as well. A crying shame.
Thanks for posting this video. Synth sounds have become so much part our times as was the piano instrument in the beginning twentieth century.
Really interesting idea for a comparison. Thanks
Love these vids! Prophet is definently a more polished machine, but I love my deepmind and its endless possibilities! It helds its own! Makes analog synthesis possible for those of us who dont have lots of doll hairs
Being likewise doll-hair-impaired, I'll be sticking with my DM12 too. I LOVE some of the sounds Starsky was pulling from that P6, but I just can't go without food long enough to bring one of those beauties home.
@ghost mall deepmind here in Australia is 1k, prophet is 5.3k.
Not even close. 5.3k can get you pretty much a decent studio set up, or just one synth.
If the deepmind is comparable, and the only difference being "personal preference" and small nuances that still exist with other top end synth options then deepmind already won
My man Starsky with the more clicky titles! Love it. Now I am going to watch this expecting another really good comparison.
Aargh... the pressure!! :)
@@StarskyCarr So far so good! I would have loved a more detailed summary tho GIVE ME YOUR OPINIONS :D
Haha... I’m leaving it to everyone else to decide.
@@StarskyCarr Your opinion is what we are interested in :)
If this comment attracts some attention to this good comparison, great. It may be 4 years old but it is still worth watching.
I love the gritty lower octave square waves on the Deepmind. That alone gives it more character and makes its better.
I remember putting "Rite of Spring" and "Chariots of Fire" together for a NAMM show right after Greg, Kevin and Bob bailed. I was in the demo room at SCI with Dave tweaking patches for Stravinsky and to get some life out of most analog gear you need to squeak the pitch on the attack. Embouchure or pluck, almost everything goes out of tune for an instant on the front end. I grabbed the mod knob on an "oboe" or something on a Prophet 10 and Dave said "Oscillator B Mod isn't the answer to everything." To which I replied "On these damn things it is." Sequential gear, aside from some of the game derivative technology pieces, has limited, but "musically useful" modulation. You won't go crazy, but you'll get a damn good playable sound. Smitty's gear has always had a certain signature velvety quality that you can't get anywhere else. And that's why people buy them. It's funny you mention ignoring the envelopes because that's the other place, for some reason, that Smitty will screw you by assigning the resolution to the "wrong" end of the knob. Over 90% of the perceived "instrument" value of a sound is in the attack. And yet on the Prophet 600 the attack went from now to duck fart with no nuance, no in-between. So, when you're dealing with a Sequential synth, the quirks are what you can't copy unless you know where to look. If you want modulation go to the products with the Mopho matrix mod architecture. The 6 was merely Dave's paean to the P-5, a limited but beautiful polysynth.
Thanks for sharing this interesting comparison. (although unfortunately CZcams's audio compression messes the sound a lot)
I've always considered my DM12 a 6 voice synth, because most of the time I was using it in Unison-2 mode, where you end up with a 2 oscillators per voice (plus two subs) to get a beefier sounding machine. Something the Juno 106 was not capable of. I've programmed patches in that mode on the DM12 that could easily rival the P6 in terms of richness and complexity. I've only set the DM12 aside because I needed a synth with more than 6 voices (I've already got an OB6 for that). So that's why I got a Prophet REV2 (16 voices) to replace my DM12. But I'm starting to think that the DM12 actually sound better than the REV2. Also, all the parameters on the DM12 have 256 possible values, whereas on the P6 many of them only have 127, which can result in audible stair stepping when tweaked live (pretty surprising/annoying on a modern $3K polysynth).
Have you seen this : czcams.com/video/XBGuuxz0aFc/video.html :)
AlainHubert what about prophet 08?
Great video! Did you know that you actually can sort of adjust the gate on the P6 sequencer in some situations? If you hit the HOLD button during a sequence then the gate will stay open, which works like a 100% gate time in unison mode :) It's great for jamming
This is an amazing video. Thank you for posting!
Thanks, glad you liked it.
i love my DM12, also have a Model D and plan to get the 808 as soon as they release it.
same here plus the neutron...its a beast!!!
@@STAkbeats same here minus the Neutron, still hesitate for that last one :-))
@@deauvillevrienden Why the hesitation on the Neutron? I own one. It's a BEAST. Loads of little design ideas embedded in there. For example, why in the hell was the overdrive sound path? Because it's actually a low-pass/high-pass gate in disguise. Using the patchbay and the onboard summer(there are two of those) and the OD, you can literally have bandpass, low pass and high pass all in on it together. It's an amazing machine. Can't recommend it enough. And that bass... omg that bass.
@sbmphr You forget that they will clone the Roland Jupiter 8, Oberheim DMX drummachine, Linndrumm, Prophet 5, Oberheim OBXa, ARP 2600, E-MU Emulator II, Sequential Circuits Pro One and a few others. They had leaked it on their website. I really hope they'll do a Roland Juno 60 and an Elka Synthex clone. They've done a great job with the Model D (minimoog clone), I've seen the comparison which are identical. I really can't understand the people who hate Behringer, but I can't wait them to release these clones. Shut up and take my money!
The Model D is so bloody powerful. Cuts thru and dominates. Use sparingly otherwise it will steal all your headroom and bandwidth! I splashed out on a Pro 2 and it amazes every time I switch it on, but I still covet a Prophet6 and an OB6.,.but the price is just too steep. Behringer are gonna kill the competition. It’s inevitable, sad as that may be. That Pro One is going to smash it outta the park.
One is an amazing value. The Deepmind 12 is insane for the price. Sure it's limited in some ways, but $600 USD for the desktop is an amazing value.
Thanks for the great video, I don’t have a P6 but do have a Pro2, I also have a Deepmind 12. I almost sent the DM12 back only because I didn’t see the beauty and depth of it with in the front panel and presets. I’m so glad I kept the DM12 as it Is a really good synth. Yes you have menu diving and an old school screen but the depth and breadth of the sound is superb. I’m genuinely blown away by the DM12 and it is my go-too synth compared to the Pro2 which is also a very good synth. I find the DM12 more musical and easier to find the sweet spots.
This is a really great video, thank you.
The DeepMind is an amazing synth, not even considering the crazy price point. But the effects, and maybe even more the effect parameters being part of the mod matrix, plus various feedback options, kicks it into territory few (if any) analog synths can compete in. With 12 voices...
I programmed some decent basses for step sequencers on my DM12D using bass boost and 2 Voices at once on some, not that I bought a Deepmind for that but was surprised what u could do if u ignore preset basses and craft your own to sound thick and articulate. TBH bass presets mostly suck on many Synths so programming a few yourself is a must, the trick is to run a sequence from the beatstep pro or somesuch to help fine tune the patch in situ before you`re done
I’ve never been a fan of presets either - they tend to demonstrate the capabilities of a synth rather than being useful sounds that can fit in a mix.
@@StarskyCarr Yes indeed I`ve explained that too to other folks
Amazing, simple and beautifull VCO DCO explanation.
Both are great synths, every in its own class.
I just ordered a Deepmind 12D today. I’m looking forward to receiving it and putting my hands on one for the first time.
Check out my DM vs Juno 106 vids to make some classic Roland tones.
DeepMind 12: A synth so nice I bought it twice! Frankly there's nothing so impressive about DSI/Sequential that would compel me to buy one, regardless of the cost. The fact that DeepMind has so many people battling over it and comparing it to boutique and vintage synths speaks to just how well Behringer pulled it off.
But most people have criticized the Moog One for sounding kind of mediocre. It seems to be a flop, not even close to their classics, and for that price it's just insane if the raw sound isn't absolutely amazing. I hope you haven't spent all that money yet.
@@uncccut23 Four months later, I'm not even considering Moog One, funny enough.
I have two DM12s as well. Any music not done is not due to the lack of gear. :)
10:20 The only possible reason why the VCO on the p6 waves is because the tuning can't be spot-on on it. There is always some minor drift even when you set the drift to zero.
17:20 the stepping on the P6 filter is probably because of the MIDI (127 steps) resolution of the knobs which apparently is used internally in the P6 (I'm not sure). I have no idea why they are still using this. A VCO can definitely sweep smoothly even when the resonance is high. The definite verification of that is when sweeping using an LFO, it should be able to sweep without stepping in that case.
I Think the only reason why the DM12 is much cheaper is because behringer has the capacity to mass produce it which allows them to sell more for less per unit. Dave smith probably can't do that massively so the only way is to target premium customers for the higher price and may be give them a bit more. But I don't think its any thing to do with quality in this case, they are both great quality synths as far as I can see.
Great comparison.
i was watching a video czcams.com/video/pUBRCY_K64g/video.html explaining the stepping and if you step the filter when using NRPN it is actually musically scaled
Synth Shoot no stepping on the filter. It’s called HARMONICS.
.@@hopselectroniks Thats is good to know. Thanks
@@SPAZZOID100 If it was the harmonics, then the stepping would get smoother as your go higher in the frequency range, say above 2Khz because the harmonics there are more condensed together with respect to cut-off exponential sweeping. The stepping would also get largely spaced out when you go bass and sub-bass with the cut off because the harmonics are much fewer there.
I don't think this is whats happening with the P6 from what I've heard. I could be wrong though.
Fascinating! Brilliant review as ever! 👍
Great take on the VCO/DCO slop.
I played both side by side at the shop but don't have the money/space for one yet. The Deepmind has tons of options and I found myself getting into a creative flow with it very quickly. It sounded excellent. However, just after that I started playing the Prophet 6. The sound had a depth and freshness to it that is hard to describe or quantify. When I applied an arpeggiator to one of the sounds and started grooving with it, I felt a real connection to this instrument and I knew that if I ever had a lot of money, I would want to buy one. What others have said is true: features=/=sound. Whatever people want to say about the Prophet, and yes it is definitely expensive, it sounds absolutely amazing. If nothing else, try one at the shop with a nice pair of earphones and I hope you'll have a memorable experience.
Ain't nothing like a Prophet frfr
Nice! maybe you can use dm12 unison to recreate some of the prophet's patches!
Very interesting comparison of two quite different synths - thanks for producing this very good video.
Regarding the Deepmind 12's lack of ring modulation capability for things like prophet style bell tones and interesting overtones etc - wondering if there is a way to get something similar via the Deepmind modulation matrix and oscillator frequency modulation?
It WAS definitely interesting and helpful, Thanks! :)
Had the prophet 6 for a bit, really a lovely machine to work with and the patches are amazing you can literally write a song entirely by using those. But unless you are a fanatic about vintage synthesizers or playing them for the fun of it you really are better off getting something more flexible like the deepmind 12 (matrix) once the sounds are in a song, mixed, all those imperfections ( if there are any) will become inaudible. One thing though the keyboard on the prophet 6 is sublime. Im getting a deepmind 12 soon second-hand :)
@ghost mall Totally agree. I wrote that 2 years ago and gained much more experience in regards to analogue synths. Yes the P6 experience is impeccable and can't be substituted. I ended up getting a Korg Prologue 8 which I could afford and it sounds n feels unbelievable. If I make money with music I'll defs get a P6 too
I sold my Juno106 and used that money to buy a Deepmind12. I think it sounds fantastic. Thanks for this video!
Edit: I'll also mention that I think the Prophet sounded better in some areas. If I had stacks of money, I'd love one.
Thanks - golden insight as always - still love my 106 way more than the DM personally, but that's me (and mine still works :))
So helpful and lovely done, thank you very much!!
The Prophet 6 is like a remake of a classic car. You develop a relationship with it in a way that may seem silly or impractical, but it's a very inspiring instrument to play. Kind of depends what gets your heart beating I think. The build quality is a bit better on the prophet but sonically they sound pretty similar. That said I'll probably never sell mine.
Says a lot that the cheaper 12 voice synth comes with a free editor, but for the triple price 6 voice synth, you need to pay extra for the editor. :)
jurviz P6 does not NEED an editor, as there are no silly menus.
@@SPAZZOID100 *see previous reply*
@@SPAZZOID100 deepmind 6 menus are hardly silly. very well conceived as a matter of fact and remarkably soft on one's patience for the complexity they afford
DSI doesn't make any software and it's better this way (with there lack of software experience) so yeah you either buy one of the third party ones or use one of the free max 4 live templates.
jurviz The 6 doesn’t need it
I love "Blue Dolphin" Such a cool deep sound. It sort of reminds me of "Soundtrack" in the Roland D50
I have an OB-6 and a DeepMind 12. I love both.
you should of talked about build quality and the back pannels as well, but i did enjoy
This is a really unique and interesting demo. I have the Deepmind 6, and the only DSI synth I have is the Mono Evolver. One of the first questions that most folks seem to have re. the Behringer stuff is the build quality. I have the Behringer Model D, the DM6, and the Neutron, and the build quality is not only good, but exceptional; they're hefty, and the knobs/sliders give just the right amount of resistance. They are a ton of fun to play. There is absolutely nothing 2nd rate about the build on the Deepmind.
The one DSI instrument I have is no different - it is built really, really well. It is small, and I carry it around with me in my rucksack when I'm biking around. A few months ago I crashed while riding and my Evolver took the brunt of the fall, resulting a couple of bent knobs. I couldn't fix it, and it would have cost a couple hundred to fix here in Seattle. On a whim I emailed DSI via their website, and I got a reply within hours from a fellow offering to send me replacement parts free if I could do my own soldering, or, fix it for a flat fee of 25.00. 25.00!!! I sent it off to them and they turned it around in days, good as new.
So, in terms of price between the Behringer and DSI stuff, that might be something to consider. DSI is in San Francisco, building these things with great care, by hand, and supporting their work, apparently, in perpetuity: I bought my Evolver 2nd hand on CL and they never asked anything about the history of my ownership - they just send, "send it on over!", no questions asked. That's artisan level stuff, and that's always going to cost more, whether you're buying synths, cars, watches, boots, whatever. That level of service is almost unheard of these days.
One other thing: the Dave Smith/Sequential brand carries a lot more currency than Behringer - at least for now. I love what Behringer is doing, and I'm buying everything they're releasing, but maybe the price difference between these synths has less to do with measurements and 'scope readings than long term, and perceived, value.
" carries a lot more currency than Behringer " LMFAO. Only with "tools"
The DM12 is so impressive. It's become a staple in my studio.
starsky - excellent as always.
The huge price difference is - I think - not too difficult to explain: Dave Smith is a really, really, REALLY good business man. He knows he can tap into a segment of the market which is prepared to pony up the premium he's asking for his brand. The DSI machines are essentially luxury goods.. and your comparison just proved this (once again). It's all a question of market segments. Behringer goes for the lower end, DSI goes for the upper end. There are enough books out there explaining the marketing and psychological foundations for this.. Anyway, great comparison video !
Can’t disagree with any of that.... think they’re both good synths. Can’t argue with the price of the DM or the quality of the P6. ... but how does that affect the results you’ll get in the studio or user experience? Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
DSI/Sequential is also a smaller operation (along with them being different synths, of course)
I also see that DSI appeals more to the pro segment, whereas Behringer appeals to the “bedroom producer”. I have yet to see a DM12 show up in a pro rig, whereas the P6 is all over the place.
@@alanshewitt Hobbyists also cannot get their bookkeeper to book the purchase cost of a synth as a company expense. Professionals can, and that makes a huge difference. If professionals were not able to book the purchase of a DSI synth as a company expense, Dave Smith would probably see his market collapse very quickly.
@BigChap J iOS also had better kernel support for audio early on, so they cornered the market on music apps. Would rather have that on Android, so It's why I'm forced to pay a premium for a tablet!
Couple things I've learned from owning a Deepmind 12D for nearly a year now -- if left unchecked it can sound a bit shrill or harsh, especially in the context of a mix with other analog synths. Needs a lot of help to get it to play well with other instruments (more/less depending on the patch, obviously). I find myself cleaning up lots of muddy bottom end and resonant low-mids around the 400-1200hz area. I also find the noise floor is quite high on the DM12. Using the built in FX tends boost the floor a good 15-20dB more on top of that. It also adds a few electronic resonances around 5K and 10K. This is probably due to cheaper components to keep the price down. Not a deal breaker really, it just means it needs more help and attention to balance it out. My solution has been to avoid using any of the built in FX at all due to how obtrusive the noise floor becomes and just use in-the-box plugins in their place. I paid $800 CAD for it brand new, so if it means I have to spend a few extra minutes taming things, I'm alright with that. The Prophet 6 does sound warmer, more balanced, and more pleasing to the ear by default, but it's tough to say if that's worth 4x the price here in Canada.
Honestly what you just mentioned about the noise floor and such (in my personal opinion) should never, EVER be mentioned seeing as price per performance is out of this world compared to other synths,instruments. HOW it sounds and what it can do is the key along with price.The only nitpick I have with it is the alignment of the keys... GOD my Komplete Kontrol M32 Midi Keyboard doesn't look as bad.
@Solo-man A I have the 12D and it was just over 800 before tax.
@@xaviermccloud4586 those are some glaring problems though if you actually use synths to make music. You spend more in order to have to do less in the studio. Thats why fender jazz basses are so prominent in studios and recordings, very little work to get sitting in the mix.
Hey Starsky, what kind of hardware are you using for the waveforms displayed on screen? Have you considered that the AC-coupled inputs on most audio interfaces will particularly affect the wave-shape of low frequencies? The sub-oscillator waveform you displayed is certainly quite out of the ordinary for what I'd expect for a square wave, even accounting for some amount of phase due to the input filter; perhaps something else is going on as well. Cheers!
- Jonathan
Love the comparison mate. Did you ever release the patches for this one like you did with your other deepmind videos?
Do I want an OB-8? Sure. What I have though is an open box DM12 that I picked up for a song(pun intended). For home studio recording, it is a great sounding and versatile synth. As to overpriced vs. poor quality, I think neither. I have a $3k guitar and a $300 guitar. Both sound great in the hands of a great player. The difference is in the components and build quality. The more expensive instrument is often just a bit more luxurious.
Thanks for the very in-depth and well produced video.
true.. it´s the omni-present Pareto principle; you get 80% of quality for 20% of the price, or vice versa: you have to invest 80% more for a 20% increase of quality.
i'll sell u my perfect ob8 for lowest price on ebay or reverb all day lol. gonna sell it to get a few clones of synths i used to own and miss...or always wanted and were unattainable,,..,from behringer :)
I prefer the Prophet's layout and filter versus the DM12, but maaaan that stepping is painful. That and the high price are enough to keep me from buying the Prophet. Whenever I do decide to purchase an analog poly, I'm definitely going the Behringer route.
Interesting comparison. The Deepmind offers a lot for its money, but pure on sound I like the Prophet a lot more. It sounds more like a classic analog synthesizer, which is what I like.
I'm really glad to see Sequential Circuits back though. Dave Smith is a genius. I still have my old Prophet 2000 and VS. Great machines. But I also have a DM12, a Novation Mini Nova (another way cool synth) and a classic Ensoniq SQ1 Plus. My controllers I have are a Keystation Pro 88 for my PC Daw and a keystation 88 ES for my iPad Pro DAW. Cubase 11 on PC and Cubasis 3 on iPad Pro
As someone who’s a Wavestation, Ensoniq TS-10/12 guy, the Prophet VS is the holy grail of synths I just might be able to get my hands on someday. (other than PPG’s of course, which are Matrix 12, CS80, DX1, wishful thinking territory 😂) Very jealous, all that to say.
The deepmind is incredible very deep the app is an amazing advantage the effects are all TC electronics which are awesome. The modulation is huge for sure. It just sounds great like the Junos did . It's all about playability. There's the classic Juno chorus in there too which is legendary. If you like Junos it's a winner plus a ton more
the deepmind's character when the FX are disengaged is so nice! mad. actually sounds better than the P on some sounds cos of the dco clarity etc.
what!?
@@444levels9 lol just imo =)
@@seth4766 mine too
I tend to prefer DCOs for that reason
I like the Vangelis-esque brass on the Prophet 6 around 30:10 aka the "Blue Dolphin" patch you named.
my wallet loves Starsky Carr. I wasn't in the market for either, right now, but videos like this are priceless imo..thanks! 👍
the best thing about starsky carrs detailed tests is how some can't even stand the basic facts :D. and i bet these are the ones who suddenly disappear when theh hear the words "lets blindfold test, folks"
what about comparison with the 08 Dave Smith?
the send mode with the slight delay isn't an issue in practice. As you wouldn't set up a send on a mixer and return it at full volume without any FX involved. So if it was a send to say reverb the reverb would be 100% wet and you'd set the send level to adjust the reverb amount ... good to highlight the delay though and potential confusion or sound for people. Enjoying the comparisons. :)
Thanks for the info. It’s a bit confusing as the mix needs to be set to 100% on the FX main page - the mix control in the individual effects then no longer doubles as the mix blend - and controls the Fx return level. It had me stumped and as you can see I thought there was no way around the flanging. It’s a bit counter intuitive - and highlights that with such flexibility inevitably comes some confusion !!! I assumed it would act much like a mixing desk - send the level you want through the mixer aux into an fx set at 100% wet. I really wish I’d got to the bottom of this before recording my ignorance for prosperity:)
your channel is awesome !! Thank you for sharing, cheers from France
I bought a Prophet 6 cuz of the ease of use, the look and the valuable side of it, DSI won't go down in price easily or could even go up and in the meantime you are working on a state of the art piece of instrument, it's an experience. It's like getting a Porsche, it's a car, will get you from A to B but depending on the model, it won't lose much value and in the meantime the experience of driving is a bliss. Same thing as buying a Rolex... It's a bloody watch... why so expensive... Really enjoyed the comparison. Great vid.
Very interesting at 11:00 to see how similar a DCO can sound to a VCO with a little bit of slop added.
Good video. One point on price, DeepMind is designed and priced for far higher volume sales than the P6 - probably 2 orders of magnitude higher sales. Then it's a question of the compromises needed to meet the DM price point. On the other hand if the P6 design was to be compromised it won't meet the expectations of its customers (pros).
Great Video, many thanks. Subbed.
Cheers
A week ago I traded my DeepMind 12 for a mint condition Prophet 08 PE . I'm 100% satisfied with the trade.
I totally respect anyone's opinion for feeling otherwise. Don't feel like you need to change my mind :)
The DeepMind 12 was my first hardware synth and I had it for more than 6 months before the trade. I found a lot of the faders were not for the settings I wanted. So I found myself getting frustrated trying to figure out the front panel menus to get something desirable. I realised that using my software synths were much more userfriendly and that I could easily use my Serum or Omnisphere plugin to accomplish mostly the same thing at that point. I found the DeepMind 12 presets weren't organised very well and a lot of them sounded weak IMO. I found myself scrolling endlessly through presets to try and find a base sound that satisfied me, that I could atleast build off of. But I found my self getting more frustrated than anything and not using the synth. Overall I had an uninspiring experience. Also, the keys on the DeepMind 12 were very cheap and one key would sometimes get stuck. I can't speak to the Prophet 08' on this because I got the desktop version plugging into my Kawai MP11 Grand, maybe the top knotch keys and range lended themselves to a better experience on the Prophet, but I know that it isn't the only factor at play.
The moment I plugged in the Prophet 08' PE, despite being an older model, I was met with sounds that inspired me right away. I found they had a presence that smacked my ears that I just didn't find with the DeepMind. I turned a knob and all of a sudden I had another great sound that inspired me further. The presets were all fantastic and they were organised by similarity of sound. Finding what I needed was super easy and painless. I found overall, the prophet had beautiful simplicity that I couldn't find with the "Deep"Mind.
Perhaps on paper, the DeepMind 12 would surpass my prophet 08' in most ways. But the prophet 08' provided me with that instantly satisfying sound and hands on approach that I could not find with the DeepMind 12. For me, I found that if I want complexity, there are many software synths that can get "that sound". But what I was looking for in an analog synth was the simplicity and immediate gratification that I craved from a Analog Synth.
Between the Prophet 08' PE and DeepMind 12, I found that the Prophet was the only one that met my original need from an analog synth.
This post is old, but i can relate to this. If you want to make a specific sound on the Deepmind, you end up scrolling threw the mod matrix and fx matrix. At the end of the Day it felt more uninspiring then just using a Softsynth. A good analog synth should have this „Wow“ Effect without tons of fx added. Also missed the knobs for cutoff and resonance, it just feels different with sliders, but thats preference. The Deepmind was not the Synth for me..
If I wanted sound design I'd get the DM12 for the mod matrix and effects. If I was in a mid-life crisis, had some spare cash and wanted to pretend I was Richard Barbieri I'd get the P6. In the end I got both. The DM sounds great. But the P6 sounds to my ears like honey-covered gold extruding from the speakers.
The prophet has an edge that I just love
Dave Smith is a tasty cook.
Well I meant 'edge' sound wise, but yes you're right, nothing a little eq/distortion can fix on a DM 12 though
And there you have it. Everyone is always talking about features, features and more features, and how many of each there are for your bug, but in the end there is only one thing that defines the quality of a synth. The sound. And the Prophet simply sounds soooooo much better. I would not waste my money on a DM. I would keep saving up until I could afford the Prophet. Nothing to do with brand, or anything, just the sound, but tastes obviously differ. And looking at a oscilloscope makes absolutely no sense. And I am afraid when Starsky says "there is no difference", I can hear a world of difference! Thank goodness Mark I am not the only one!
Hey, your timestamp in the description for the summary got mistyped, it's at 38:40. Thanks for doing this comparison btw, don't think I'd be in the market for either of these for a while, but I'm always eager to learn the differences for functionality and build quality at extremes like this.
Hi! thanks for the wonderful video! I wonder if the bass boost compensates the bass loss when using the lpf on the deepmind 12... Comparing the u-he plugin with the Juno plugin... the mid frequencies look more musical in the prophet... so I wonder if I can get the same filter sound with de deepmind12, thanks in advance
I LOVE my DM12.
Never selling it!
I just bought my DM12 yesterday. Oh GOD what a SYNTH!!!!
It's expensive because It's the make and reputation.
Great vid mate, so...the Korg Kronos 2, 73 key, the Roli Rise 49, a MPC Live, and a Deepmind 12. I think I'm good for a bit.
good one. got the dm now for a week. love it
Great demo, but i do think that the price difference is crazy for what difference you get between the DSI & DM 12.. I recently bought the desk top version for around £500.00. absolute bargain brand new.. Behringers problem is there are too many brand snobs, so the dm 12 to a lot of musicians, no matter how good it is, it will always be a poor sounding synth. Having said that you did keep a good balanced review.
thanks
"the dm 12 to a lot of musicians, no matter how good it is, it will always be a poor sounding synth" Then they're deaf as well as snobs.
@@flat5sharp11 With one's head far enough up a brand's arse any perceptible difference will be interpreted as inferiority from the cheaper models IMHO. If it's cleaner it's "brittle" and "not as warm", if it's grittier then it's "muddy" and "distorted". Never mind the fact that these are all adjustable parameters with any synth and effects chain really.
Deepmind 12 a fantastic synth for the money
wow that's a great comparison, thank you!
I love my DM12. I'm going to have to stick with that as a good hardware synth controller combo and all my Arturia VSTs. for vintage analog sounds. I'd buy all that stuff if I could.
Behringer products are good for the price (I have a few including the slightly controversial Model D), but there is no denying the DSI build quality/durability is a huge factor on the price.. + they are a 'boutique' manufacturer without the economy of scale . The Deepmind synths have a fan inside, and LCD screens can be a bonus, but also another part to fail and a complexity that takes away from the immediacy of 'knob per function' panel. The fan is a big issue for me.
Thanks for the comment. FYI I contacted Behringer about the fan, and it's a legacy from the prototype they decided to leave in. There's no harm in turning it off - I turned it down so it was inaudible. It's maybe useful in a live setting where overheating could cause the voices to drift, but in a comfortable studio there's no need for them. Once you've set it low or off, it remembers the setting. It comes on for a coupe of seconds on power up, then turns itself down again.
Ding ding ding....what I’ve been sitting here thinking economies of scale are quite different with these two companies.
@wavesequencer - 'slightly controversial Model D'...in what way? because of its appearance as a clone? I'm considering getting one -are you happy with it? Problems / build quality ?
@@marklondon2008 Build quality seems just fine, and the sound is very authentic. There seems to be some controversy online (comments in forums etc) in terms of Behringer doing clones and 'stealing' old designs. I was put off buying the Roland SE-02 because of the tiny/wobbly knobs.. the D on the other hand is small, but not too small to use easily, and the knobs are solid.
@@wavesequencer Thanks for the reply. I can understand some of the controversy about Behringer 'copying' designs, but on the other hand it's allowing people to have access to quality analogue synths without breaking the bank. We really are living in a period of renaissance and creativity for all. It's possible to get 2 analogue synths for under a grand!
Deepmind presents are drowning in excessive reverb, but capable synth.
Nuke the presets. I did
There's no such thing as excessive reverb.
I honestly think the price difference is not only in the build of the machine, but accessibility. The more knobs on a synth the higher the price it seems. So, you're also paying for convenience of not menu diving all the time.
I have a DM12. Love it.
THE BEST CHANNEL FOR FORWARD THINKING MUSICIANS!!!
I think you would just go for what you feel like, to me an instrument has some feel to it, you live with it. Comparing features takes away the charm of the instrument.
When I'm in a music store, I walk around the synthesizers like a kid in a candystore, and when I play around with a synth that gives me that warm inner smile.
I feel like adding it to the family... (if the piggie bank allows me to)
Nice comparison, yes the prophet does sound a bit cleaner,but at 3 x the price? Not so sure. The dp12 is a great piece of kit though?well done behringer.
Hello, I've been studying this synth for a while now and seriously interested in getting one, only question I have that no one can answer yet is if I can do microtuning on it? That is tuning individual keys to quarter notes! To be able to play middle eastern microtonal scales. If not is there any trick to do that? Thanks!
Not as far as I know. I think its been requested as a feature, but nothing has been implemented yet.