Why Does Gen Z Prefer Going Sober?
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- čas přidán 6. 01. 2024
- Maybe, your friend announced they’re not drinking anymore, or your sister’s now “California Sober,” or maybe your entire office is participating in Dry January. It’s not just you, going sober is the hot new thing, with 41% of Americans aged 18 to 35 saying they don’t drink at all. Today, we explore the changes in drinking culture, in how we think about wellness and health, in how we socialize and spend our free time, and yes, changes in technology, that are converging to make America sober. Max interviews Crooked producers about their relationship with alcohol and then talks to Dr. Edward Slingerland, an expert on humanity’s relationship with alcohol, about why humans drink and what changed about alcohol and our world to make more people choose sobriety.
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Crooked believes that we need a better conversation about politics, culture, and the world around us-one that doesn’t just focus on what’s broken, but what we can do to fix it. At a time when it’s increasingly easy to feel cynical or hopeless, former Obama staffers Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor have created a place where people can have sane conversations that inform, entertain, and inspire action. In 2017 they started Crooked with Pod Save America-a no-bullshit conversation about politics. Since then, we continue to add shows, voices, and opportunities for activism, because it’s up to all of us to do our part to build a better world. That’s it. End of mission.
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For me it's just because I saw my parents drink as a kid, that always stressed me out, and I don't want to be like that 🤷♂️
I am a Boomer and grew up with an alcoholic father. Drinking is not appealing & nor is smoking weed all the time.
Same here I just commented similar in general
Funny, it was the opposite for me. My parents almost never drank, but did not make a big deal out of it, so I learned that it was perfectly normal not to and you could have a good time without it. I think the "not making a big deal out of it" was key, though. I wasn't subjected to lectures or anything like that; I just didn't see them drink.
Both sets of my grandparents were alcoholics and so my parents rarely drank in front of my sister and I. If they did, it was one or two beers max. I think that had an important impact on us
I was trying to think of why I personally don't drink, and it's a few things:
1.) It's expensive and I don't want to pay for it (why spend $12 on a glass of wine when I could get a slice of chocolate cake for $6)
2.) It tastes bad, I don't want to drink the taste of burning
3.) My chronic illness doesn't react well to excessive drinking
4.) I take other medications to help me deal with life stress, so I don't feel the need to self-medicate with alcohol (or weed)
5.) I didn't grow up with people pressuring me to drink in social situations and as an adult I rarely feel like anyone expects me to drink when we hang out
6.) While thankfully not in my personal life, I have seen the potentially really destructive results of alcohol and other drugs, and for me personally it's easier just not start and be present in my own life
Basically all of these for me as well. 1) it's a waste of money 2) tastes awful 3) I'm autistic and have a high need for control over my personal experiences and my life is weird enough without it. Also horrible sensory reactions to crowded bars and nightclubs. 4) dad was an alcoholic and I've found the life approach of "do the opposite of what my dad would do in any situation" has stood me in good stead 5) grew up around the binge drinking culture in the 90s and didn't want to be like any of those people. It's surprising though how many people think whether you drink or not is their business and who actively pressure you to drink even after you've told them you don't. I feel like some drinkers are really insecure about it and seek validation for it by insisting everyone else around them drink too.
That's what made this video so surreal. Have never had any interest in drugs/alcohol. Your brain is you, purposefully taking a hammer to it with toxic substances just seems like could never lead to anything good. (reinforced by movies/shows/news about the taste/smell/effects) And just like with the tobacco industry, alcohol being everywhere is a product of predatory behavior from those lacking in any ethics just wanting to make money regardless of the harm that is caused.
@@Vaeldargso you obviously didn’t watch the interview
@@jrojala I did. The surreal feeling was in the first part before the interview. Did you not watch that part?
@@Vaeldargthey're not always toxic, alcohol is, but some drugs just interact with the chemicals in our brain in a different way, air is a chemical
I'm Gen X and I drank for 30 years. I smoked cigarettes for 20. I've been off cigarettes for 14 years and alcohol for over 2 years. Maybe Gen Z is waking up to the fact that alcohol is poison.
I was a chronic alcoholic for over 2 decades. Sobriety saved my life. This is SUCH an important discussion!
Hell yeah brother! I’m about one year off the sauce and I wish I had quit 20 years ago.
If I was sober in my 20s&30s I could have made a down payment on a house! Being sober is the shit
Me too! One year free from Alcohol and happy that I chose life!
@debrarymer4102 Good for you, darlin! I'll be 2 years in September. Very proud of your choice!! 🥰
This new sober culture has empowered two of good friends who were alcoholics to quit drinking. The fact so many people were stopping gave them the out with casual friends, "hey im doing that new take some time off drinking thing", while to us that knew them well, they said "thank god I can find a girl who doesn't drink, its easier now" and so one of these guys is happily married now and sober for 2 years, another is back on the dating scene and has been sober for 18 months and looking to settle down with a sober girl. Its really been great to see for them. I am not sure they would have done this if there was not this general change to society.
@@Rob-vc6xw that's so excellent to hear! Encourage them whenever possible and vocalize your support with the same frequency! The more these difficult issues are discussed, the easier it will be to fix them.
some of the language in this discussion would be better served if they just said "alcohol free", instead of conflating being "sober" when saying they are smoking weed and taking shrooms all the time.
the definition I have for sober is:
so·ber
/ˈsōbər/
adjective
not affected by alcohol; not drunk.
Gen Z here. Taking shrooms is not necessarily that common. Marijuana isn’t even that common compared to how many perceive it. Drugs in general are seen as a bit more frivolous and a cheap, meaningless way to temporarily induce a sort of high mood. It’s also seen as a bit irresponsible, and this, immature.
@unconventionalideas5683 my millennial ass feels embarrassed now to be smoking so much weed.
@@Keely_OReally there's more cultural context to a definition in the US than just "not drunk" for sobriety... By your definition drug addicts can't be "sober" and yet they are called sober on their path towards addiction recovery...
@@Whooshta the point I was making here was that they were using it correctly.
That it refers to the DOC that the addict has an addiction to, not all drugs in general that they may be using at the time. Would you say that someone who quit smoking cigarettes is "sober"? What about someone who stops using caffeine? (and yes those are drugs too)
Just because someone is using another substance doesn't mean there's an addiction there, and those who are actively stopping their addictions should be propped up, not torn down. So, while the commenter we are replying to may believe that; I was merely showing that their use of the word "sober" was not wrong either.
What I keep hearing is basically "weed is just so much better than alcohol."
Agree...I don't appreciate neighbors in my apartment complex that smoke weed and the smoke stinks up my breathing space.
In a lot of respects it's definitely better than alcohol, but you need to grow it yourself because most dispensaries use chemicals you wouldn't want to eat in produce but people think smoking it is fine.
I agree.
I agree. And when considering a variety of factors, it probably IS the far healthier option to alcohol, especially when only eating it. The social cost of alcohol/alcoholism is HUGE when looking at family function, health care, employment, etc. I guess we don't know the impacts that alcohol alternatives will have, but I'm guessing they will be far less than alcohol.
So true. I have had many good conversations with people over a glass of wine or two glasses of beer (not 10 or 20, of course), but have never found anything any marijuhana user had to say even worth listening to, often enough even when they were not under the influence...
I'm old (50) - I have been sober for 8 months after being a daily drinker for 15 years
As someone who never liked alcohol, I wish this sober trend would come to Germany, as well. It sucks to always be the only sober one in a group.
Are you sure you’re German?? 😆
All kidding aside, glad you don’t succumb to the pressure even if it sucks to be the only one.
Just be the designated driver.
@@Vulcanerd Yep, definitely German. ;) I'm trying not to let anyone pressure me, it's just becoming harder the older I get. Being in my 30s and having to justify myself to coworkers is pretty annoying.
@@JellyBean-lo4sl That would be ideal, sadly I can't drive a car due to issues with my eyes and the people in my life know that.
Ditto. You need to explain yourself for not wanting to drink here which is just insane.
I love that these Gen Z thoughtfully analyze this stuff in the way they do. But I really hope they spend time talking to people outside their circles too. These ideas ("sobriety is gendered") can come off as bizarre and pretentious to people outside these circles, even to people who might be down to agree with the substance.
I like the way you put this. Thanks
I agree.
I had a big cringe moment at the comment that we all have to die some way (when discussing cigarettes). I understand that's youth talking, but there are much less painful ways to die. I've lost 3 friends and a father to lung cancer or emphysema. Spending months and years struggling to breathe is not something to aspire to. No judgment - do what you want - but don't downplay the potential suffering. It's not fun for anyone.
As a recovered alcoholic, I now wonder how I managed to wake up hungover all the time. It's so much healthier to not poison myself with ethanol all the time.
my generation called it being a " functional alcoholic "
I've heard it said functional alcoholic is just a phase on the road to dysfunctional alcoholic lol.
“Yes, but keeping your suffering in the present helps keep older emotional pain at bay! And the only way to deal with the shame of drinking is to drown it again in a bottle.”- my unhelpful brain all of the time
Drinking regularly is also expensive, and a lot of young people are already struggling to make ends meet.
As a Therapist, this is my insight: a lot of people don't realize addiction is genetic. People who grew up seeing their parents drink, will choose something else because of the effects they've seen. But they rarely think their problem is as bad as their parents. This cycle continues with their kids picking some other "drug of choice". Its in their genes. That's why i work with my Clients to find healthy substitutes and actually deal with the issue that causes them to want that quick reward.
What do you mean genetic? I know nothing about the topic.
Why did you Capitalize 'therapist?' It isn't being used as a proper noun, and it implies an inflated view of your own profession. Not that you shouldn't be proud of what you do, but it is distracting, and in that context belies intellectual insecurity.
I feel like this video really showcases Max's skills as a interviewer. I feel like both of these discussions could have been much less interesting, and he just did a great job at getting things to places I didn't expect, and sussing out points and anecdotes that I don't think they had intended to share beforehand.
This podcast consistently demonstrates quality interviewer skills. Just about everyone is really good at interviewing and having a conversation.
I wonder if part of it is partially because Gen Z is not socializing with other humans as much as previous generations.
This is a huge part of it. My teens always talk about their friends vaping or smoking weed. Rarely is someone drinking in their friend group.
"Drinking alcohol isn't about getting smashed; it's about the social interactions you make along the way."
Cigarettes are back? Weed is not a problem? Well, as someone who grew up when most of the parents smoked and drank a lot--and then many died of liver problems or lung cancer--I'd caution against glorifying smoking or pot over alcohol. All of these substances require a measure of caution.
Name one death in history associated or related to weed. The answer: 0
Woah, yeah! When I was a kid (I'm 51) all older people had yellow fingers, extremely croaky voices and looked prematurely aged. My Grandad was one of the few that gave up smoking early on in life. He sounded sprightly right up to the end of his life (nineties). My Grandpa on the other hand had a stroke in his fifties and looked frail at my age. I can't believe we are the same age now. The poor sweet man - I thought he was ancient. It's rare that I see people look so old these days.
22 and never had a drop. No tragic backstory, just never felt the need to drink
Same, listening to the first part was like "What? Isn't the NORM to be sober? Alcoholism used to be the thing people were judged for being, not being sober."
I'm not a sober person but this was a fascinating listen and definitely got me thinking about it
Sober for 8 years. Society is so bent on keeping us drunk. Peer pressure is huge. Huuuge. People get ostracized for not drinking.
The younger people may not be into alcohol. But make no mistake, addiction is still here. Preference is weed & fentanyal. I live in an apartment complex with younger people and I see them on the patio smoking, I smell weed coming into my apartment from upstairs neighbor smoking. For some reason I guess younger folks think sober only applies to alcohol.
I love hanging out with the younger folks, and smoking weed. Fentanyl is definitely not part of their repertoire! I grew up in the sixties, and I think this generation is much smarter about substance use.
@sarahbrome5564 I dunno...the kid upstairs starts smoking at 6:00a and when he is home I still smell it until he must go to sleep. He can smoke all he wants, I just don't want it coming into my breathing space. It smells like something died. Listening to these folks on the panel all of them need "something" when they are around others. They may not be drinking but they said they do weed and mushrooms instead. I live in Texas and wish they would legalize pot. If they did I would do edibles so I wouldn't be infringing on someone's living space.
I was a heavy drinker for a decade and I knew I needed to stop for a while. But like Max said, I was scared of the negative stigma that is had about people who go sober. That was exactly what happened. I've been 400 days sober and my social circle is completely gone. Friends, coworkers, and family members (except my parents who've been unbelievably supportive) are standoffish around me, make social situations very awkward, and when they learn that I'm sober their first reaction is "What's wrong with that guy?" But I finally had to say "To hell with their thoughts. I gotta do this."
When you say "I'm not going to drink," they think "Why is he saying I'm a bad person for drinking?” (Which you're not saying at all.)
You're exactly right. But hopefully, it's only a few insecure people who don't want to look at their own alcohol consumption. There are plenty of people in my social set who will drink non-alcoholic drinks (for whatever reason) while the rest of us have what we want, and no one bats an eye. @@JillKnapp
For me, it's because my dad was a vicious alcoholic. He would tear the house apart in furious rages, and my mom, my sister and I would have to flee for a few days until things calmed down. He finally got sober, and it saved his life, and my family. As a result, I almost never drink, with the olnly exception being big gatherings of friends, or something of that nature. I would never, EVER, drink alone. And I actually don't think I've had a drop to drink in something like 3-4 years.
Interesting discussion.
Edit: Having said all of that... I am still an opiate addicts in the Methadone program. I'm not without my vices. Alcohol simply isn't one of them. I would venture to guess there are more Gen-Z'ers who are painkiller addicts than alcoholics. But that's just off the top of my head without having done a google search so... 🤷♂🤷♂
As a high school teacher, I can add in that many of my students are taking anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, or anti-ADHD medications. I almost never smell cigarette smoke, and only occasionally notice a faint weed smell on a few kids. There are still groups of friends who party it up a bit, but it seems to be mostly in moderation; at least that's the version I'm told :) The counsellors know far more than I do about the "hardcore" D&A use, of course, but from my perspective, the "hardcore" substance use is mostly amongst the most troubled kids.
It’s absolutely wild that alcohol is seen as a taboo, but cigarettes which wreck your health and those around you with second hand smoke is ok.
Note: These producers use “like” as a filler word at least three times every sentence. Once you clock it in Brian, you can’t unheard it.
I quit drinking when I turned 30. Alcoholism is a problem in my family & I saw how it was negatively affecting my life. I just turned 40 and getting sober was the best decision I ever made. Hubby quit drinking 4 years ago as well. My 17 year old son has zero interest in alcohol so I'm hoping he chooses a sober life as well. Thanks for this conversation!
Hardly a mention of the use of alcohol as an enhancement of the dining experience. I haven't been drunk in years, but I have a drink almost every day with lunch or dinner. I find it to be an aesthetic pleasure, not a means to achieve oblivion.
This is SUCH an important conversation, and I think there’s a few very crucial points that were missed and play a significant role in the decline of alcohol use in younger generations:
1. Trauma from alcoholic caregivers. As it stated in the beginning, while alcohol use has reduced in younger people, it has increased in older people. Sooooo many of us have alcoholic parents or caregivers, and the trauma and abuse from that makes alcohol way less appealing. I don’t drink much mostly because of how my family abuses alcohol and who they become when they get drunk every single night. Whether it’s wanting to stop the cycle of abuse, being soured on any benefits of alcohol, or trying to encourage sobriety by not drinking and not providing drinks, trauma from alcoholism absolutely is a factor in less drinking in younger generations
2. Safety when drinking. In the first panel of sober and sober-curious people, I think it’s important to note that it’s all queer and most non-male people. Being in a marginalized group, drinking reduces your reaction times and awareness, and drunk people can be more likely to act violently on their bigotry. I don’t drink much out in public because of the dangers as a queer woman, and I need my wits about me to protect myself. It’d be pretty hard to find a woman, nb, and/or non-cishet person who hasn’t experienced sexual harassment, assault, or danger while drinking around cishet men.
3. We can’t afford it. Older people benefitted from a better economy, higher wages, and lower cost of living. We’re lucky if we can find affordable housing on the wages we can get, and don’t have the disposable income that our parents and grandparents had. Alcohol is very expensive immediately, as well as down the line in medical care that we can’t afford
I feel like the main reason Gen Z and younger millennials aren't drinking as much is the same reason "The Gen Z Butter board trend!" exists. We're just broke and cutting out expenses so we can afford rent. And even if you're doing well, if your friends aren't drinking you're probably not drinking, and drinking overall goes down.
I agree with some who are discussing the use of the word 'sober'. Maybe it's just a change in use of language? When someone tells me they're "sober", I assume they've had a previous problem/addiction with D&A, but the panel seems to be using the word sober differently, as in simply being a non-drinker. If someone doesn't drink, but still smokes weed, for instance, I wouldn't use the word 'sober' to describe them.
Where I am from, clean is without weed or other drugs and sober is without alcohol.
Agree...it seems to me younger generations need some kind of mind altering substance to socialize and/or to get thru life.
I guess "teetotaler" is too much of a mouthful, or too old-fashioned, for them.
@@shereemoltzan9075 Did you watch the video? The first half is a discussion of how many of them are deciding they don't need that.
Sober in my mind has always been someone who is currently abstaining from drugs or alcohol, whether there was an issue before or not isn't what matters what matters is they made a choice and I do not want to help them break it.
It couldn't poasibly be because they lived under addiction patterns theough their parents and said, "Nah, maybe not for me." It could also be they can’t afford it.
Being sober is fine, but can they stop using "like" every third word?
God I can’t unhear it now
A confusing part of this discussion is that if the reason for abstaining from alcohol is to be more present of mind and aware and 'woke' in the moment, wouldn't the other substances they're talking about produce a similar result to alcohol? They say that alcohol takes them out of the moment, but marijuana and shrooms help them stay in the moment, which I don't quite understand. I'm pretty ignorant on this topic, but this was nagging me in the first part of the episode.
They may be referring to micro-dosing rather than "full on" smoking a joint? You're right: being entirely high can take you "out of the moment" of being with others.
Agree.
I am zero substances other than the occasional drink and some caffeine ... I definitely think living unaltered by substances is right for me.
It depends on your tolerance. Unlike the boomers who responded…you can function perfectly after smoking a joint or two. And even micro-dosing mushrooms. You gotta know your own body and what your own limit is BEFORE consuming anything (includes things like chocolate). A lot of people can drink a bottle or two of hard liquor and not be as wasted as someone who drank a half a glass but has the tolerance of a non-drinker.
I don't get that at all, honestly. I know it's a matter of tolerance, but weed is often far more mentally disassociating and socially dysfunctional than alcohol. The average person can definitely perform normally after a couple beers compared to smoking a joint.
“I smoke weed sometimes” 20yrs sober here and I needed to remove weed and alcohol from my life. I think there’s room for certain cannabis use even when not prescribed by a doctor, all the isms are self-prescribed as the books say. I also never jived with the god centered, self-deprecative focus of Anonymous programs. Yet i spent many years participating fully but that’s my story. I like the idea of young people culture moving away from alcohol/drug obsession but I also feel that if kindness is to acknowledge who people are then sober may be better understood as zero use of mind altering substances to reach the spectrum of altered states. Sobriety is something I’ve been doing for two decades and it shaped who I am, affected how I interacted with the world which was difficult. I’m not going to die on this hill but it may be a point of contention between a weed sober person and myself
I’m a millennial and I also don’t drink. 😅
Cue in 10 years people this age talking about weed the same they are taking about alcohol lol I agree weed over alcohol but the way they talked about weed while saying they are sober is quite interesting/cringe
My parents served wine with dinner as a kid and it wasn't a big deal. I never liked drinking socially in high school because it just made me feel sleepier. It was my first night at college when I saw so many people drinking themselves sick that I decided not to drink alcohol anymore.
I've been fine eating food that has wine or liquor as an ingredient, but I had a long resistance to having a sip of wine as part of communion at church. I eventually embraced that weekly sip as part of the ritual -- then COVID made sharing a chalice a problem.
I've never felt awkward letting people know that I don't drink. I have noticed that some people seem awkward dealing with my choice.
I used to drink when I was younger becasue older generations didn't have the quick access to medical information and the real dangers of alcohool. 20-30 years ago your doctor just said try to avoid alcohol without ever going into details to what it meant. Now people can read medical papers and journals with the click of a button. If I knew the information I know now at 35, I would have never drank in the first place.
For me, it's not so much about my relationship with alcohol as my relationship with *everything else*. I'd rather spend my money to find joy in longer-term things than a couple hours' buzz, or spend more time exercising than nursing a hangover.
Also, can we cut back a little on the generational-dividing terms?
"Alcohol is not cool," but we saw from segment one - and this jives with my limited, anecdotal experience, that Gen Zers have switched the drinking for drugs - molly, weed, acid, vaping/smoking, and lastly - yes - meth.
I made a deal with myself that I won't drink at home anymore. I threw all my barware in the dumpster so I don't have reminders. Now I keep thinking about leaving the house. This is my personal social engineering.
I love this topic SO much! I'm a non drinking pothead as every single member of my immediate family was/is an alcoholic and as a result I think I'm likely an alcoholic, also. Now, if I were to have even just one drink I'd become uncomfortably hammered and I'm happy with how little I like the stuff.
Once again Offline is on point on a topic that I've been focusing on for a long time, and came just at the right time for me. Wonderful ep as always. I know it's fitting with the whole new years thing, but my partner and I have just started with taking a break from booze. He's had more of an ongoing issue with it than me, it might be forever for him. For myself I want to do the month and see how I feel. I might want to keep going I'm not sure. But even if I do start having drinks again I'm going to have a massive overhaul. Not at home/alone/weeknights/must have x amount of time off etc. We both work in entertainment/hospo/music and it's everywhere which can be a huge challenge if you're trying to avoid. But there are also plenty of people who make it work within it. I'm trying to focus more on what I gain from it, not what I'm fomo'ing about. Thanks again folks, keep up the amazing work.
Wow. Sober curious here. These people are soo immature, that listening to there discussion is largely a waste of time. I want my time back!
I love the content. Absolutely a great topic- would love you guys to expand your group beyond the LA based bubble. A broader range of people and thought could really add more depth to these episodes.
Over and over in the first conversation I’ve found myself asking why there seems to be no acknowledgement of the difference between drinking and getting drunk. Truly, it feels like there’s an entire side of this conversation missing.
I respect that, for some, alcohol is an all or nothing proposition. But it doesn’t have to be approached that way by most people. Talking about it as a poison in any quantity, equating it to cigarette smoking, is just untrue.
As someone who has worked in production of alcoholic products (wine specifically and helping family member create a distillery now), I think this conversation is interesting to listen to. From my observation, even the ones that do drink are getting more decisive on their alcohol choice. Like theres fewer and fewer people going out to get drunk. They go out to actually enjoy the taste of their drink and the experience. Also theres more demand in unique never-ending innovative flavors in the spirits & wine etc versus just bulk made products that are made constantly. Thus the booms on small breweries/wineries/distilleries etc. Truly fasinating how things are shifting
I’ve got 19 years sober time under my belt. Liver gave me no other options and I’m surviving the long term consequences
I’m actually living my best life now
I'm about to be 43 and I was never a big fan of alcohol. It just wasn't something I found fun. The last alcoholic beverage I had was in 2018, and before that, was 2012 or something. I just don't like to be drunk. It's not a fun experience for me. That being said, I won't stop ppl from enjoying what they enjoy, and I'll even be the DD if they need one.
I think another important topic in this discussion is the increase in people with allergies and intestinal issues…. alcoholic beverages literally make us sick. Not worth it. We as a whole suffer enough so we are continually working to minimize and avoid any additional/unnecessary suffering.
Alcohol is literally a toxin. It wreaks havoc on the body.
Allergies are much more of a first world problem, in poorer places they're constantly bombarded by allergens that many in first world countries can pay to minimize. That leads to your body freaking out if you do get exposed all of a sudden.
I'll still bet most of our intestinal issues are from plastics and chemicals we put in ground water for generations.
Much of the food and beverages in the U.S. make me feel sick. I’ve found that red meat makes me feel sick as well as almost all alcohol. By 2010, I noticed that after 2-3 sips of wine, beer, or some alcohol give me a major migraine. I have half of a margarita about 4 times a year.
“Write drunk, edit sober.” in accurately attributed to Hemingway, but still, sounds like shutting down the PFC in order to allow lateral thinking. Then turning it back on to make sure it communicates.
What a great topic. I'm sober 38 yrs myself and never have regretted it. Kudos to these young people and the movement away from "better living through chemistry" lol. Uplifted me today, thanks.
This is an episode purley for Americans, as someone from the UK this is crazy, drink if you feel like it and dont if don't, obviously if you have an issue with drink then that is different, also weed is a lot more prevalent in America, and I personally I despise the smell so I prefer the booze.
I was a regular, even heavy, drinker for many years. I started to conceal my drinking, which I know is a bad sign. When I was hospitalized for lymphoma, that pattern was broken and I’ve been alcohol-free for almost 4 years now. In a sense, cancer saved my life.
If someone made a drinking game out of the number of times these folks use the word “like” as a filler they would be drunk for the next 3 days.
Yes! It detracted from what they were saying because the constant “likes” were crazy distracting.
On a subject so important I hate to sign out because of the repetitive use of "like."
This is a brilliant conversation about the subject, branching out and covering so many aspects of it.
Gonna be that person: I expected an interesting dialog about youth living sober in the first segment. They're technically not sober. Sober is not only refraining from alcohol. Just say, "I don't drink alcohol." That's fine. Don't imply that you do not use any mind altering substances if you do, especially if you're gonna participate in an entire segment about being sober. Loved the interview with Dr. Edward Slingerland. Very interesting.
Yes... as an older recovering person, whose long-term health has been affected by vices of the past, these three sound "young"-they can't (yet) see the arrogance or hipocrasy in what they are saying.
Can any of these people speak w ithout saying 'like' all the time?
I’m so glad I wasn’t born in gen z. The sheer amount of word salad coming from all 3, adding to that the inconsistencies in what they said, made this a really hard video to watch.
And the fact that they said "like" every 3rd word - very hard to listen to
Great job Max! Thanks for hosting!
I always say I stopped drinking when I was 18 and it wasn’t cool anymore (I’m in the UK so you can legally buy alcohol from 18 up). I always found its effect on me was just a muting effect so it seemed kinda pointless and I didn’t anymore.
What that means is that I end up with a pretty objective view of drugs as a whole. As far as I’m concerned, a bar and a crack house are much the same thing. And that’s where I have a lot of push back for Dr Slingerland because, as much as he wants alcohol to be the answer, it sounds more and more like social disinhibition is the answer and in a society where we historically achieve that through alcohol, we keep seeing it as the only way to achieve it ( I know he mentioned how religion achieves it but it definitely didn’t feel like a valid alternative).
And the thing that particularly irked me was this idea that alternatives to alcohol are solitary and introspective things or that creativity comes from social drinking. Sure, weed can be somewhat isolating but get somebody on cocaine or ecstasy and you’d best believe they’re here to make friends.
And that’s the real problem alcohol has for me, it’s bad at its job because it doesn’t have a specific function; at least not one that drinkers are willing to agree on. The drug you take to go to sleep and to go dancing cannot be the same drug. Think of any specific thing you want from your drugs and I can pretty much guarantee that alcohol will be your second best choice at best.
As an aside. I remember back when I used to enjoy the odd rave and you could tell how good a night you were going to have by how big the queue at the bar was. Big swarm round the bar means lots of grinding and awkward conversations, no queues and bars stocked with soft drinks and water and you’re looking at an all night rager where shirts will be lost.
Now obviously some of those first choice drugs are not necessarily good plans. Your first choices for confidence and dealing with pain are both very addictive but your first choice for calming down, for socialising, for amplifying creativity are all far more effective and much safer.
The thing I do worry about with alcohol is the larger detrimental effect it has on society in that society often uses it as a permission structure and the insidious part of that is that it allows you to make things that shouldn’t be taboo taboo. For some reason, things that are fun are considered inappropriate to do unless you are drunk.
I remember a friend of mine finding out that I don’t drink
“But when we first met you thrusted your crotch in my face”
“We were at a party playing twister, what else was I supposed to do?”
A similar thing happens when I go to karaoke nights. I always have to be the opening act because other people need a few drinks in them to go up. What is wrong with society that it is normal to not be able to enjoy innocent things without a permission structure?
In fact, that is the advice I have been known to give people asking if they should go sober. “That depends if you will still be able to do the things you want to do”
The other strange thing is coming to terms with how alcohol is not just normalised but expected. I always worry when I watch Stephen Colbert because he appears to be a functioning alcoholic. The punchline is a glass of whisky all too often and it’s always something to be laughed about. Oddly, that’s not such a problem with a Graham Norton where everybody turns up to get trashed and have a party. I could imagine going on Graham Norton and enjoying the vibe without being drunk but I feel like going on Colbert and turning down a drink would be a whole thing.
Not sure what else to say other than legalise all the safe drugs and create public health solutions for the unsafe drugs. I won’t be having them but I’ll be happy knowing that people that enjoy them will have better options
Sober implies alcoholism, perhaps just say you dont drink or you "dont partake". Cigarettes are back? So much for this generation being better. Once you have children and cancer, "everyone dies" will take on a new meaning and it won't include giggling.
Nah everybody’s just high now, realized hangovers suck. Alcohol just has such a high trade-off for what you get. Theres better stuff out there that isn’t as rough on you.
I did not know all this and I am amazed and impressed by the conversation here. It is so positive with a focus on sobriety, positivity, spirituality and community. I stay away from alcohol and drugs as I have seen the destruction it leveled against a friend and other people I have known.
Man, that boy is ADDICTED to the word “like”
I appreciate discussions like this, but as an outsider, people like me aren't reflected in these conversations at all. Ive never drank, so when I tell people I dont Im defined by all the "new" sobers and people ask when I stopped or why or what elese I do. I never started. People really can't handle that, they don't know what to do with you.
I hope John and the rest of his family are doing well. We miss him but spending time with your new son is way more important than we could ever be. Great show. When I lived in FL I didn't really drink much (heat and alcohol really don't mix well), then I moved to CO and started drinking a little bit more, then all the sudden I just stopped. No reason really I just didn't feel like drinking.
This conversation is so interesting, but I am totally mystified by the cigarette conversation. 😵😵😵 If smoking is back, I hope it’s quickly in the past again. It’s so bad for the person, but it’s also bad for everyone around the smoker.
I love the topics you cover here. I always leave with something to think about which is a good thing. Thanks for all you do. 💕💕🌟🌟✌️✌️
Everything old is new again. For us "kids" in the 70s and 80s, drinking was for the "older generation," what our parents did, and was totally uncool.
Going 'sober' seems to mean that narcotics are so easily accessible to you that you don't need to bother with alcohol. It's concerning that a lot of it's sold as a 'guilt-free' alternative to very naive people. There's never a free lunch with these things, and to weigh the pros and cons - you have to at least be aware of what the cons are, and how much you're willing to sacrifice for a good time. There isn't nearly as much data on the long-term effects of most of these drugs as in there is on alcohol - it's a difficult area to study because of the ethical and legal dillemmas, and often reliance on self-reporting and qualitative data.
I was dropping acid in the sixties. I think this generation is more self aware about the substances they use.
@@sarahbrome5564 If acid today is amazing…I can only imagine how it was back in the 60’s.
As a person who grew up Mormon, I feel triggered by this convo. Also, for people who don’t like AA because of the religious aspect, they use a lot of religious sounding language around their sobriety 😂
I don’t like AA because of AA lol. I have been involved with more than one person who was involved in the program and they were super intrusive in our lives and relationships. Both times. Separate groups, separate areas. Left me with total disdain for them. That said for people that need it, if that’s the only place they can get help, more power to em.
@donnac2420 , I am sorry you had those experiences. Understand that overbearing actions are not part of sponsor responsibilities. They are supports, not overbearing to the point of almost bullying.
I grew up Mormon, as well, and I'm curious to hear how you were triggered by their conversation.
For me personally I didn't relate to anything they said or their experience with sobriety.
I wrote a comment on my experience that I'll paste below:
I grew up Mormon and didn't try a drink until I left the faith at 28. That was 9 years ago and I've had less than 20 drinks in that time, most of which were a taste or drinking only a portion of the entire beverage. I've never found the taste of alcohol enjoyable and I'm not really a fan of the feeling of being buzzed. From my experience hard liquor was awful. Most beers were terrible, but more mild ones aren't bad, such as Dos Equis or Belgian style beers. The drink I've enjoyed the most have been hard ciders, hard lemonade and seltzers, but every time I drink one I realize that I only enjoy them, because they taste similar to actual cider, lemonade or seltzer, so why am I drinking this with the slight taste of alcohol, which I don't like or enjoy the way it makes me feel.
As for feeling out of place, I definitely felt out of place when I was Mormon and getting my MBA where drinking is pretty much part of the curriculum. Since leaving Mormonism and having tried a few drinks I don't feel out of place. I think this has something. to do with the fact that before I wasn't making the choice for myself and my reasoning was hard for others to relate to, where as now I could drink, but I just don't want to.
As for the panel, I was surprised at how little I knew and related to anything they were talking about regarding sobriety and the culture behind it for Gen Z. It really makes me feel old at the age of 37.
For me growing up as a Mormon I saw Sobriety as one of the perks of my upbringing. Even if the methods weren't great the outcome has had a lot of benefits 🤷♂. I think their reasons for not drinking made a lot of sense. I think for many who grew up Mormon detest being told how they should live their life, because Mormonism has a lot of do's and don'ts attached to it's belief structure, and that understandably can make one sensitive to controlling people and ideals in society. I think if we did away with Alcohol the world would be a better place, but we can't legislate it. That never works. Just continue to research and educate on it's dangers. Also Edward Slingerland's arguments were interesting, but seemed more anecdotal than scientific in nature.
I can't stand AA. I was heavily involved in 2009. Too religious, too cult. Fast forward to today, I'm over 2 years sober without AA and way happier than when I was part of "the program."
I've never drank and never really had the desire to, for various reasons. I had this observation probably 2 decades ago and I didn't exactly know how to phrase it until relatively recently, which is that I don't think there's anything in society where there's less of a social stigma commensurate to the harm it does to both a person personally and to society writ-large than alcohol. I think the primary reason for this is the role alcohol has played in celebration since pretty much the beginning of time.
I’m a nurse and I will say find some other vice besides smoking. “We are all gonna die sometime.” Well sure but if you’ve seen what I’ve seen, you’ll know the problem isn’t dying from smoking related diseases, it’s living with them. I’ve had to refer many a patient lower extremity amputations and before that they have lived with incredibly painful wounds. It’s not just about cancer or heart health. There are so many miserable things that come from long term nicotine use.
Boomer here; quit drugs & alcohol 30 yrs ago. Tired of burying my friends who didn't.
If alcohol really was that important for cooperation, why aren't we all similarly adapted to it? Alcohol flush reaction is far more prevalent in some regional populations.
Also, if you want to quit alcohol, more power to you! Substituting by cigarettes seems like an awful plan, though: there might possibly be a safe level of alcohol consumption, no such level appears to exist for the carcinogens in cigarette smoke.
I don’t drink. I am a baby boomer who was a child of a vicious alcoholic who also chased this habit with prescription drug abuse. I suspect she used her substance abuses to self medicate her emotional shortcomings. She had an inability to deal with life and her inability to find any pleasure with interacting with people in general. She also found comfort in drinking with her fellow alcoholic parents and siblings. In youth when I allowed peer pressure to influence me I found that experiments into drinking made me antisocial and miserable. Growing up allowed me to reassess. Along with the warnings of the dangers of children of alcoholics following in their parent’s footsteps and how miserable drinking was for me, going cold turkey was a goal that was something I found quite easy to accomplish. Living a life in sobriety is a joy.
Happy for these kids but hearing queer youth say that coming out as alcohol free was as difficult as coming out as queer was TOUGH
Anybody remembering we tried to to make alcohol illegal back 1920 to 1933? Interesting that fashion is more powerful than laws.
It's almost like society as a whole has more power than any single institution
I love drinking a lot, but peoples choice to be sober is really important and I hate when people are pressured into drinking. I also hate that about kitchen work, they might ask someone to work late and just give them a beer creating a reward path for alcohol and it really frustrating, while sobriety is not for me it’s def for a lot of people and we need to respect that.
The relationship between alcohol and violence was basically skipped over. What's that old canard? A guy who drinks too much booze beats his wife but a guy who smokes a joint doesn't? My large extended family had many members who abused alcohol and there was violence. I lost my grandfather, dad and son directly from alcohol. They weren't mean drunks, thank god, but booze took their lives. Drinking alcohol is a personal choice, but I'm glad it's out of my life.
As someone who has an additive personality I simple choose not to drink.
Alcoholism is one or two drinks away for me.
One comment I have heard in the past is that Alcoholism is possible for everyone.
I am tipping my hat to each of your guests. This is such a personal topic and they each were very brave.
I'm pretty sure "sober" used to mean not drunk or no longer abusing alcohol (alcoholism). Sounds like these people are using the term "sober" to be simply abstaining from alcohol. I'm confused.
Just an annoying fact. Non alcoholic beer and wines are not truly non alcoholic. Government standards allow for 0.05% to be considered as such. A technicality but…yeah. I’ve worked too many years in beer and wine. Love the pod.
That is approximately equal to your average store-bought apple juice.
I am Cali sober 7 years now, 54 years old. Cirrhosis stopped me from drinking. I could not do it without cannabis.
Me too! When cannabis became legal in Arizona, I quit alcohol and switched to weed. I love to pop a gummy, and ride my horse through the dessert.... absolute heaven. 🤠
I really enjoyed the panel of your producers - some of the points they made got me thinking a lot and really appreciated their input!
Like…did it really like get you like thinking? Are you like appreciative of like their like input?
This is so fascinating. I have always had a drink of wine now and then and am not afraid of alcoholism for myself. Indeed I recall having a beer in the winter at a ski area and finding my skiing was much freer afterwards. However I also became a runner at a young age (pre college) and found that my creativity increased during long runs (now longer walks at this stage of life) so I wonder if there is something sparking the creativity during the chemistry of prolonged exercise. Thank you for this wonderful discussion!
It’s a show of my age that I was overwhelmingly annoyed by the kids in the first section of the podcast, so I fast forwarded to the interview with the elder intellectual.
Like Homer’s dad said, “It will happen to you!”
I was surrounded by that kind of speech 20 years ago in grade school, it's just as annoying sounding today as it was then. Not really an age-thing.
I’ll take it!
Sober but taking meth heroine shrooms weed. I must be missing something. That's not sober
Who said they were taking meth or heroine?
This was a great podcast. I definitely will be reading Dr Slingerland's book.
Fascinating topic and episode. I loved the structure too of pairing the panel of folks sharing personal experience moving into an interview with a researcher.
Oh and also learning about the important functions alcohol has served in our development and why that may be not working so well in the modern era was just really novel for me in thinking about alcohol culturally.
One comment about functionality to civilization building: ethanol is an excellent sterilizing agent, and water-borne diseases were notoriously deadly before we developed modern medicine to deal with them. Watered-down beer or wine would be one of the safest ways of hydration up until you get modern plumbing and water treatment, particularly in societies or areas without good urban areas with associated water works or in rural areas.
I drink alcohol but have always been sober. I have a drink or two and am fine. I never over drink nor do I drink every day.
I think this is more about people with addiction tendencies.
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What a great topic to delve into, and good angels being covered. Yay, Crooked, what I come here for!
If people do not like your content, well they don’t have to watch your channels. It is a big world on YT. I learn so much here in a fact based , clear & occasionally amusing way. Thank you Beau
My experience with alcohol was literally toxic. I quit nearly 30 years ago. My daughter and her partner have no trouble with alcohol, but quit alcohol after making sober curious choices. Seeing this I have stopped feeling guilty for what I saw as an unnecessary choice. While my experience had a part no doubt, I can see that it doesn’t have to be a fear of alcoholism behind her choice.
A boomer here and I quit 21 years ago. I feel better, lost weight too where I was once 230 I am now 155. All that because I quit drinking. But remember, this is a personal decision, not something that can be legislated as we found out during Prohibition.
A couple of things: 1. The view that prohibition "didn't work" isn't quite supported by the evidence: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/#:~:text=The%20stringent%20prohibition%20imposed%20by,Great%20Depression%20altered%20voters'%20priorities., and 2. Rates of drastic decrease in cigarette smoking also support the use of laws and regulation in altering social behaviour at the large scale. So I'm not sure where the "it's not something that can be legislated" comes from aside from a general resistance to a government having some control over what we do.
To be clear, questioning whether that is the 'right' role for a government to do is fine. I think that's a difference in how people view the role of government. However, suggesting that it can't or doesn't work is where I'm pushing back.
My son saw his father abuse alcohol and has steered away from it because of that. I’m proud of him.
I am so glad to see this topic in the feed. Such an important discussion. I do want to point out that going home and being on screens is just one option when choosing alternative intoxicants. I have been off all substance for over almost three years, but when I was using marijuana (in my 'sober curious days,' substituting weed for alcohol) I went on some incredible sunset walks after work and hikes on weekends. I also was extremely creative using those alternative substances. I am still very active, creative and social, though my socializing is different as a sober person. I do not agree with the notion that the only alternative to socializing and collaborating because of a choice to consume alcohol is not socializing when choosing other substances or to be sober. Great discussion though! Thanks!
Just started this but if I want to speculate one of the contributing factors to this trend is, alcohol has gotten really expensive. Like just in my area I've noticed prices have increased by over 20% in some instances over the past 12 months, specifically for beers (I'm not as familiar with spirits). That and other things becoming more expensive quickly probably contributes to younger folks without as much money dropping a habit that is completely discretionary/a luxury.
Thank you for this conversation