should Nadu Be banned
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- So a lot of people have been asking for a ban on this. Well let's talk about that!
MUSIC
I actully made the music in the video myself. If you want to listen to it in the background with a 60 minutes version you can find my music channel here at this link.
• Calm lo fo music in space
WANNA WATCH CEDH GAMEPLAY?
I have a youtube channel called cEDH TV gameplay where I upload all my gameplay videos. Here is a link for you: / @cedhtvgameplay3974
SUPPORT ME
If you wish to support my channel by purchasing cards from TCGplayer using this affiliate link helps cEDH TV grow.
tinyurl.com/TC...
I have a Patreon: www.patreon.co...
A lot of people are asking me about proxies. Here is a good website I got some of mine from.
customizedmtg....
DISCORD
Come and hangout with other cEDH players at my Discord: / discord
Here you can write to me if you wanna say something. Like "hi can I join in on the live stream games?"
#mtgcommander #cedh #edhgameplay #magicthegathering
If your opponents try bringing Nadu to your table, just direct them to the cEDH table
YES!
Its almost as though the format needs seperate banlists for casual and competitive
@@nonya_bidnessRight, because otherwise Casual players act as toxic gatekeepers because the believe the format should be what it isn’t.
@@scyche the format was made by and for casual players. it _is_ a casual format.
the only issue is that its banlist is an incredibly unfunny joke, somehow one list meant to work for two extremely distinct formats.
@@nonya_bidness I disagree.
Commander is a social game, but not a casual game. Because there is only one winner, which is the object of the game, it’s always a competition to win.
That’s why there are commander tournaments, because it’s a competitive game with competitive players.
Many players like to say they play “casually”, but commander at is core is constructed as a competitive game much like any other Magic format. No matter what RC says, commander is what it is.
I agree that RC does not represent commander well with their banlists, and hope that in the future they either adjust their ban criteria, or work to create a format that casual players enjoy separate form Commander.
Another reason Golos was banned that applies to Nadu is that because they both get you lands, their commander tax is functionally reduced. Removal, the answer to most problematic commanders, has reduced efficacy.
Tbf tho, Nadu's trigger is a potential land, not a garauntee
@@Savage_Mr_Bean14 I'd argue it is almost guaranteed becomes it is a trigger upon targeting and priority: Even if he dies, you're getting the trigger..
@@Alecations yes, and the trigger is not garaunteed to be a land. Therefore not garuanteed to contribute towards paying command tax. Still useful but my point stands.
Some commanders, like derevi, never pay commander tax.
Main reason for commitet ban is whining on social networks
@@Savage_Mr_Bean14 I think that's the main issue, you could take a 10 minute turn trying to hit a land and just brick and all you've done is wasted everyone's time.
Perhaps we've reached a point where 'banned as a commander' could finally be considered.
I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts but I believe fundamentally problem commanders such as Golos, or Nadu in this case would be fine as singular cards in the 99 but they are problem cases when theyre securely in a zone such as the command zone where it is essentially another card in your own hand.
Is golos as oppressive when it's just a creature in the 99 of a WUBRG deck as it is as a Commander? Definitely still strong no doubt about that - but he isn't being recurred from a non-interactive zone every turn that hes destroyed.
Is nadu not just another landfall card in a Simic lands matter decks if its in the main 99? A very powerful one for sure but if it is interacted with then the simic player has to spend resources to get it back from the yard. Perhaps that same player would rather recur their Nyxbloom ancients, their gain an extra playable lands creatures, or even Stompy creatures if they play them.
This is something I've learned a lot from Salubrious Snail. He sees the Command zone as a second hand just with one single card. These cards are extremely powerful under the context that they are always available should you have the mana to spend them, thanks to the command zone. If theyre destroyed, they go to the command zone. If they're exiled, go to the command zone. If theyre removed from the board in any way they'll come back ASAP. Simply removing the mechanical potential by forcing them into the 99 at least in my opinion is a lot better than saying we cannot play it at all.
I am in no way involved with the rules committee though, just sharing my thoughts
Re: Wordly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Green Zun Zenith, Archdruid's Charm, Finale of Devastation and if If I'm unluckly to quickly draw into any of those I still have Mystical Tutor, Personal Tutor, Change the equation, dizzy spell, muddle the mixture and drift of phantasm to go get either Nadu or a card that would tutor me Nadu and if he happens to die, I'm also on the brand new Six and on Bala Ged Recovery and I'm not even on eternal witness or the many other reanimation strategies on green anyway so it's not all that hard for me to get Nadu from the 99 if I want to: this doesn't makes that much of a difference I'd run Thrassios even without a partner and basically have little to no issues to still run Nadu as the secret commander anyway.
I assure you that banned as commander was considered during the years the banlist worked that way, but they moved away from it for simplifying the banñist
BASEDBASEDBASED
@@Spirited_skiing Would we agree that the game and format have become much more complicated since then? I would prefer the simpler angle to a ban list that we have now, but Im afraid edh/cedh is not so simple anymore hahaha
@@dimitriid Don't forget invasion of ikoria, step through, vedalken aether, chord of calling and time of need.
Golos was also one of best tribal commanders too. With zero restrictions on colors and casting cards of the top for free, it was better than more tribal specific commanders
That was especially true at the time it was printed.
Angels / Eldrazi / Dinos did not have any 5-color commander option, but people wanted to play the big ones, and Golos did it all.
Especially in combo with the World Tree , you always had 5-color mana, even in your mono colored decks.
I loved Golos because he was the best example of building whatever you want and having a decent commander. You could have a shit tribal or theme to start with but Golos as the commander helped you smooth things out. I think most Golos decks were fun tribal decks more than anything else. Although, there were some annoying Golos Gates decks.
I hate this design so much.
Counter the commander? Ok, but they can search cavern and play delighted halfling.
Remove the commander in play? The draw/ramp happens. He gets to try again next turn if he flips a land.
Draw hate? Doesn't work.
Cursed totem? Shuts off only creatures which target, not greaves.
Null rod? Shuts off Shuko/Greaves, but not seeker of skybreak which draws 9 cards by itself and puts 9 cards worth of land in play.
Humility? Timestamps, since both add or remove abilities.
The gameplan of the nadu deck is so much simpler to execute on than the ways to counter it.
Seeker doesn't draw 9🤣. More around two or four on opponent's turn if one has null rod
@joshcuker5877 Turn 1: mox, land, seeker of skybreak. Turn 2: land, nadu. Tap seeker targeting seeker. Seeker untaps itself. Nadu trigger. Do it again. Opponent 1 turn 2, repeat previous turn, functionally drawing 2, Opponent 2 turn 2 repeat previous turn functionally drawing 2, last Opponent, tap/untap seeker twice, then target nadu once.
This is 9 cards and all lands from those 9 cards into play.
@matthewherrmann9526 bold of u to assume everyone has a casual few hundred bucks to throw away on one mox, or any card for that matter. that makes more sense when u say it like that. The way u worded it before makes it sound like all the cards were in one turn. That doesn't seems any worse than the rhystic study player, especially on later turns
@joshcuker5877 Nadu is.. one of the most budget friendly cEDH decks. Chrome Mox is around $100. The Null Rod in your example is around $80?
It's much better than Rhystic, since it gets you mana also and people can't choose to pay.
@@matthewherrmann9526 your definition of "budget friendly" is skewed, but otherwise agreed it can be done for cheaper cards
It should have been “Non-token creatures you control have” instead.
no, just a twice per turn trigger, forcing blink lines makes it more obvious when they have it, or they don't
It's simic. They don't limit things on simic.
Target enchantments that causes creatures to lose all abilities will hurt Nadu. Darksteel mutation, imprisoned in the moon, etc.
You need to do it early and then they don't get to play the game. Somehow everyone loses in this scenario.
Look, when I use 1 card in my hand to remove your commander, and it AT LEAST draws a card (and 30% of the time ramps) it doesn't end up being a favorable trade for me since I am going down 1 card in hand while no one at the table loses a single card. Not to mention 30% of the time with the ramp they will just cast Nadu again (similar to how Kinnan can be cast 3 times before it feels heavy)
What you need to hit to answer Nadu is the equipments. That turns Nadu into a Vanilla until they find another equip which is harder than just recasting Nadu next turn.
However, that has the same problem as well. If they have Nadu down and they cast an equipment, they get priority on equiping onto Nadu triggering it before I can use Nature's Claim to kill the Lighting Greaves. This means, again I am going -1 and nobody is losing a card in hand.
Not to mention in both scenarios they can just rip a counterspell from their trigger, fizzling my attemp for seemingly free.
The most efficient way to deal with Nadu is countering it and the equips on site, since at every other time it will be a net negative for you. This makes again Blue be the only efficient answer to a problematic threat, which isn't good design for the metagame. Then there's Ouphe and Null Rod, but those hit you as well and not every list can include them.
Couple this with it being durdling and you have a centralizing deck that I wouldn't mind being hit.
PS: Niv Mizzet also interacts the same way with removal, but that card costs 6 Colored Mana and is so hard to get down early, while you can constantly get a turn 2 Nadu
Use Boseiju. That could work. Though it’s only one card.
@nutellakinesis yeah boseiju answers the equipments at instant speed, although that will end as a -2 for you in terms of card advantage, since due to priority they get one Nadu trigger with the equipment before you can target it, and then you make them search for a basic and put it into play.
This is better than dying outright to the combo, but going -2 when trying to remove a single piece (in a 4-player game) is really unfair on your end
Why do you need to wait for them to move to equip before interacting? As soon as it resolves, but before they move to equip you can use your nature's claim, no?
@joshholmes1372 no that's not how it works. While it is being cast, it is on the stack so removal doesn't work. You need to counter it.
As long as it resolves, unless it trigger some ability like "when an artifact etbs draw 1" which they dont have any, the turn player has immediately priority to take the first action. So they choose to activate the equip ability, targeting and triggering Nadu. They stack now is Equip Ability
Nadu like commanders is why I run a minimum of 4 board wipes now
Who is more annoying? Nadu or Krark/Sakashima?
I have to say Krark/sakashima on a personal note.
I don't think either are annoying per say, but the answer to the question is absolutely Krark/Sakashima Lol
Damn. Here I am with my Krark saka deck, thinking about building Nadu.
Saka is worst so far, as the nadu needs 4 cards to make chãos, while saka is just both comanders
So, what are the odds of wizards just changing a rule vs a banning? Is there a downside to making equipping a non-targeting ability? Like errata equip to say something like "Choose a creature you control. Attach ~ to that creature." The only "downside" I can see is you will now be able to equip creatures that have shroud, which doesn't seem like much of a problem to me.
I would be fine with that. That would fix the creature a lot I think.
People should use more artifact removal...
We do but they have Tamiyo's Safekeeping already in their hand.
Every game of Commander could require a negotiated settlement before you start, to appease the few CEDH spikes, or,
Toxic cards can just get banned. EDH was made to escape the repetitively optimized, hyper competitive nightmare of other formats
I do agree on rule zero. I use that when I play casual EDH. But this is just a video talking about the mindset of RC.
I think that cards like Nadu and other really commander centric decks(Magda, Winnota) forcing other decks to run more creature removal/interaction is a good thing for the health of the format. Turbo win con with only enough interaction to protect a win is getting a bit stale. Running a less "optimal" list in order to be more prepared for different types of decks is healthier in my opinion.
I would say maybe bordwhipes copuld be worth looking into.
preach! only good comment
💯
Big problem is that spot removing Nadu does nothing because there's a really big chance he's going to flip a land, counter, or protection piece. Land means commander tax is nullified so you didn't really do anything. Protection piece means he gets 2 triggers and your kill spell gets nullified.
There's a ton of casual commanders that are kill-on-sight that are completely fine.
Even if you boardwipe unless it also takes out artifacts, all they need to do is resummon Nadu, get a good trigger and they combo right back off.
Interruption doesn't work a large portion of the time.
Keep it unbanned and while the committee is at it; unban my boy Golos who did nothing wrong but tutor for Gaea’s cradle.
I agree to this.
This card is yet another argument for PreDH.
I think we missed Leovold here. Leovold was good in cEDH, but would constantly cause locked out games because of the popularity of wheels. It also GAVE YOU A CARD WHEN YOU TARGETED IT.
I feel like there isnt a world where this doesnt get hammered BECAUSE of casual. Its too easy to durdle and does so with VERY popular casual cards.
So free cards for nothing, and if you spot remove you get a card, thus nadu player is never down resources.
Damn I forgot about Leovold. Been such a long time since I saw him.
Got my a$$ handed to me twice last night by Nadu in limited/sealed. Not sure if he needs to be banned in EDH when we’d have access to a healthy amount of removal and interaction in general.. but damn that’s a powerful bird for sealed play.
Yes...
It NEEDS to be banned.
Don't be dumb 😂
@@klaiken989 why’s that dumb? I can consistently beat Nadu with RogSi, Sisay, Zur, K’rrik, and just about any turbo deck. What make’s not thinking he needs to be banned “dumb”? Maybe you’re just not playing the right decks.
It’s a powerful card. So was Oko. People learn to deal with them. He’s not Hexproof, doesn’t have Ward, and if someone isn’t running enough removal to deal with him they’ll feel bad. What’s abnormal about that? His ability is limited to twice per turn. Is it awesome? Yes. But so was Kinnan and Dockside. I don’t see it as THAT big of a deal.
Remove him. No need to ban him. If he dominates any single format people will adapt as they always do.
Don’t be dumb.
Because Removal isn't meaningful against him. You target him, they draw the protection and now you are a card down and they get 2 Nadu triggers.
Even if you hit him, he just returns the next turn and the summoning sickness doesn't matter, the command tax doesn't matter because of greaves or shuko.
Landfall already is strong in EDH but Nadu is Landfall on cocaine. The only way to deal with them is if everyone uses their forces together and focus the Nadu player.
They don't have fun, we don't have fun, why play EDH in the first place then?
@@gianglai7346 totally true. I agree.
Really well made video Mons, every thought I have on the topic you pretty well covered. I think based on these premises I think there's a chance it does get banned. But, it won't happen for a few months at least.
No for sure. I mean there will be a lot of complains about it here and there. and if those die down nothing happens but if they keep going it will get banned. I honestly think.
@@cedhtv I think there's a good chance it could, too. Strangely though it's the casual scene that will decide it. If it ruins games there, almost a guaranteed ban. If not it stays. It looks very Paradox Engine like though, so I think if it sees enough games it will go.
Yes, if it becomes the next Paradox Engine.
I agree that rule zer0 is just not discussed enough if at all. Many a casual pod starts with "I'm playing X". The best thing about cEDH is that there a lot of presumptive rule zer0 aspects in the format.
Let's into more communicative rule zer0s so that less cards get a ban hammer but more importantly more people get to play a game that they were hoping to play. I believe in us! Lets go!
I can only speak as a Brawl on Arena player. I've played against him 4 or 5 times and it was a consistently miserable experience.
He’s actually so bad in brawl comparatively.
Im here to represent the Magda players. ❤
greetings to the midget lovers. no kink shaming!
To me, it’s no worse then any other commander where the turns and choices are difficult to make when you’re learning you deck. You have a lot to think about.
I believe this deck is no worse to play against than other Simic commanders, and I enjoy watching the deck go. I love learning how the interactions work and how and when to attempt to stop it. Yes, if you’ve just picked up the deck, your turns may take a long time. But as a whole, it’s no worse than any other deck that I’ve played against IF the opponent has just built it and doesn’t know the lines.
Community be patient. I think the newness of Nadu will wear off and it will be, at best, a medium CEDH/High Powered Commander. As for casual, rule zero this bird. But at the same time remember Magic (at its core) is a fun/COMPETITIVE game.
We shouldn't even have a banned list for casual commander; rule zero is sufficient. Banned lists should be for things like cEDH. The rules committee should focus more on encouraging rule zero and for players to build decks with a variety of power levels in mind; the same way people are encouraged to build decks with a variety of different strategies, color combos, commanders, etc. All the banned list does is prevent honest players from playing with their cards. The banned list does nothing to prevent someone from being a douche bag and ruining a casual game with an obnoxious and/or overpowered deck. Thassa's oracle plus Demonic Consultation is okay turn one, but Coalition Victory, (which might as well be something like a seven card combo) is too powerful; it's ridiculous!
I want to thank our Rules Committee nanny overlords for banning Golos. He made a bunch of my old crappy cards from Legends and vanilla creatures somewhat playable as a deck. I still lost the vast majority of my games, but I guess that was still too overpowered, politically incorrect, or something like that. Sorry I put a Mox Pearl in my Atogatog deck. I guess that one mox is really going to push that commander over the edge. I guess I'll go make a stax deck instead and load it up with legal cards such as Winter orb, Static Orb, Stasis, Obliterate, etc.
Terrible design. Card draw, ward on all your creatures, ramp, and it’s 3 mana. Oh and it’s evasive. Terrible design.
Worst part is that it’s *not* drawing, it just puts the cards into your hand.
sounds great to me!
Better go upstairs and cry to your mother.....again.....
The cost was just too low, at least if it was UG3 for example, then it would only come out early in a high power/cedh deck, casual would be less impacted.
it could and maybe should have been more expensive yes!
One thing i like about your points is that you point at the reason the card could be banned because of casual play. I think that way of going about it holds a lot more weight than giving reasons in cedh that nadu should be banned.
Thank you.
Personally what I think Nadu does show is that cEDH needs more mass creature removal. It’s a good card but not ban worthy.
I disagree with the reasons why Nadu should be banned. For example, one major issue with Golos was that it by itself got around its own commander tax every time you it came into play and its ability (in casual) allowed you value out the table. Also in regards to paradox engine, many causal players just jammed it into any deck which some casual players just went infinite or without either realizing it or know when to kill paradox engine with its ability on the stack.
"Mass creature removal", you mean boardwipes 😂
Not every deck even for casual would have drawn into plenty removal unless you build a boardwipe deck even that can't pull every removal at one game....
🔨 🐦 nothing against the bird, but 10 min or more turn triggers is kinda annoying 😅
10 minutes would be fine, but it often takes WAY longer, if they play their entire deck and carefully have to make sure they dont cheat (people sometimes use dice to track the triggers on each creature) , you are easily in the ballpark of 30+ minutes.
And just imagine the first Nadu fizzles out and the second Nadu on the table goes for it ... yea ...
@@ThisNameIsBanned
Learn to put removal / interaction in your deck lmao
@@ThisNameIsBannedat that point the issue is inefficient/slow people, not the commander's mechanic itself. I can burn thru a Nadu-play-whole-deck-in-one-turn in under 15 min easy. I wholeheartedly believe there needs to be a priority clock or turn-time limit, like in chess.
@Savage_Mr_Bean14 That is how the biggest cEDH tournaments in Mexico are being played. Each player has a clock of 15 mins, if you run out, you lose the game.
@@diegoruizcabanas8145 thats beautiful
I’m very glad to have a new deck, cEDH has been in an insanely stale rhystic meta for a while now. A new commander, with new winning lines, using unusual cards is only a good thing. Yes it can have slow turns, but the deck has been out like a week, people will get faster at funding the winning lines
Very. Hopefully Nadu changes up the meta cause right now, it's boring as hell with Blue Farm everywhere
We can't expect the RC with their american and emotional decisions to overcome the urge to act, that they display often.
Winter Moon and that blue Blood Moon are going to push people back towards one and two color cEDH decks
extremely long turns with Nadu. I hope they ban it.
Funny, everyone that says the meta is stale say its stale for a different reason. Bobbo/thp, Zurgo/Ojutai, Stella Lee, heck even Master Transcendent are all new tournament winners that aren't considered part of the meta. The meta is in a healthy state. Adding a commander like Nadu won't shake up the meta. It will only make another Krark-like commander that unnecessarily adds long non-deterministic turns to the format.
The reason why this is even framed as a question is so that we can cope with years with no ban or ban at all
Nailed it when he said that casual players will end up building Nadu decks that are too strong for their playgroups. Over time, I can see this getting banned in every format it's legal in--too much easy, mana-free card draw is broken.
This vid inspired me to build an armageddon cedh
Maybe its time the rules committee looked at having 2 distinct ban lists with one for cedh and a banned for casual list. Nadu Is incredible for cedh it adds spice to a format that can sometimes run stale with 5 color soup decks. We need more cards in cedh like Nadu to diversify the format, it makes it exciting and fun.
No, Nadu should be banned from cEDH
It is not acceptable as a commander, there is no good way of answering the damned thing
Rule zero should always be happening , great take on the nadu issue
Thanks.
WotC should just errata Nadu, Winged Wisdom to read: This ability triggers in total no more than twice each turn.
I know I'm gonna get alot of heat for this, but what about banning kinnan? Low CMC, increase mana output (dorks/artfacts), cheats cards into play for free, and preps for infinites.
the kinnan playstyle is super simple to pilot and will out value the table regardless the power level.
Kinnan mimics golos more than nadu does.
I'm a kinnan player myself and I sometimes find myself purposely not playing to its full potential so I don't pubstop the CEDH table. I went X and O in multiple places, even I'm disgusted. lol
Nadu is new and forces a land/commander centric gameplay. The nadu deck will need to cater to the commander and simple removal will do the job in preventing play.
If Kinnan can be the second most played CEDH commander, then nadu can exist.
Based on how you view Kinnan, I don't think you really are a Kinnan player. I think you're just someone who plays with Kinnan players.
For one, Kinnan indeed is simple to pilot but not simple to pilot RIGHT. In a real cEDH table, it's almost impossible to let you get away with an X-0 record unless you're really not against cEDH decks but just tuned ones. There's a reason why in tournaments, even on experienced players hands, Kinnan does not make it to top 16s. It's because there are numerous decks that are far more above in terms of power level.
Kinnan is a lot easier to stop than Nadu. You can't stop Nadu with Bowmasters as opposed to how the rise of OBM killed most of the green decks. There are other plethora of reasons on why Kinnan is a lot easier to keep in check than Nadu, you can just search for random gameplays and you will find out.
Personally i hope it isnt banned. We need more commanders in the format that demand things like spot removal, it is tiring that everything that comes out just keeps making combo better.
I won my locals for 4 weeks in a row with roxanne and my local meta adapted and everyone stopped playing 2 health or less commanders. Let the meta adapt and see if it can handle nadu, if we see a winrate over 60% then maybe consider the ban 🤷
Unban Golos
YES!
lame
Just find friends who want to let you play it?
Free golos
Golos was lazy design. This is powerful design. Do you understand the difference??? Probably not, I get the feeling you failed out of school
At least you have to build around him, cards that targets your creatures repeatedly aren't that common.
This has been my main point of contention: You need a lot of space to either tutor the Equip 0 artifacts, a lot of alternatives and possible both AND since this is a landfall + Creatures strategies it also needs far more space than normal to run a lot more lands and more creatures than other decks.
To me that balances things out: yes if you let Nadu resolve when there's already Shuko and another creature in play you might be done for but it's not gonna be that easy to resolve your combo if you need a lot of moving pieces and don't have enough space to interact back and defend your combo.
In other words, this is powerful and fun but far less efficient than the established combos like Kinnan and Basalt Monolith, Thassa + Demonic or Underworld Breach + Brainfreeze + Lions.
Until we have thassa, consultation, food chain and dockside around EVERYTHING is fine to go, EVERYTHING
Nadu is one of the worst card designs in quite some time. Even for cedh it’s way too broken
Nadu shouldn't be banned, it should be errata'd out of the game as a whole
When I first read the card I thought it's non-deterministic combo turns would be problematic.
I think that is incorrect. Yuriko is very easy to make casual. play low cost ninjas and unblockable creatures with some counter magic to protect her. Its just 90% of those decks will look the same.
commander based decks will just struggle against every single target removal. Format will regulate it on its own, when its too much commander based things :D
I have another argument. It is not so hard to force draws with that commander as turns can take very long without corssing the "intentinally drawing truns out" line.
In many (smaller ones) turnaments people scoop early even if they could still get the top 16 spots with draws. This commander can abuse such situations quite well. I am not saying this is why it should be banned or not though.
Now for the casual playertables:
This card (as a commander) will force many players to have long turns (especially if the deck is not build to win effectively). Longer-ish turns by design are not healthy for a format that is centered around having as much fun as possible ( this is not a fact but a mere observation that many people in edh do not enjoy to wait for their turn).
I would not like a ban for this card at all, as it itself really does nothing unhealthy. I just do not see how to handle such situations from the outside (as erratas like "nadus ability is only triggerable twice per turn no matter other circumstances" or the likes would be just strange in this game imo) other than banning in, as other restrictions are not really easy to do in edh as far as I know of.
Nadu is one of those cards that goes infinite with an ham sandwhich so yeah I can see how a casual player can easily go whelp! I have seemed to have gone infinite and apologizing for not being intended. Also, it's the kind of commander if a newbie decided to build and pickup will have them end up hating the format as it would seem like they where being targeted. I mean rightfully so, as the commander is just that good and efficient. You just need a few cheap as-chips reuseable flicker effects and some land mana doublers and boom infinite via delicious sandwich.
I also show that for Simic the people who design the cards always seem to just make the card draw and ramp color combination lol please make something more interesting in those colors dudes! It's the color, of scientific monstrosities gone wrong, how can you not design something based on biological horror or some wierd as hell scientists that modify creatures (Modification is literally a thing they do in Ravnica and are scientists) by introducing some new simic-specific counters to do wonky things like giving landwalk, to show how they adapt well to environments or say if they attack an opponent they gain X effect depending on the land types they control or land manipulation like terraforming lands to have specific effects good or bad if they have counters put on them which accumulates up). Like so much darn cool design space, but it's always card draw and ramp 99% of the time. Like Jesus, make something new so both competitive players and casual players have something fun to talk about.
As a biological scientist career wise I would honestly play way more simic, if they took the master's of modification and changing the lands to their desired image, would play it way more than I currently do as simic just feels so basic AF. In both cEDH and casual EDH.
should have been "Only once per turn". Or Only spells instead of abilities like Orvar
Or only opponents.
I almost ran this in my Dimir deck, but it just... Does everything.
Me: that looks like it could be fun…
Mons: they might could ban it
Me: thanks for saving me the effort, still miss my Golos Leyline Nykthos meme of a deck 😵💫
if thassas oracle is unbanned there is no logicaly justifcation for any other ban
If the banned list would be made for cEDH and powerlevel in mind, it would look a lot different.
@@ThisNameIsBanned very true, it would probably make a much better format. luckily we use a in store ban list format to allow for better gameplay, rather than relying on "i feel statements" to dictate our gameplay
A card in the 99 is much different from a commander. Smh
If they ban Nadu, they must also ban Krark Sakashima, 30 min turn are annoying.
Thing is krak sakashima isen't being played in casual. That is what it comes down to. Nadu is played in casual.
This isn’t about Jeff Nadu.
I think that Nadu might catch a ban, but i don't want it to at the end of the day. I think making people interact in this format is a good thing
the problem is he can interact back, and he gets back he's cards each time he gets hit.
@@W4llh4k One: you can interract with this creature on the stack.
Two: there is a staunch difference between one card and his entire deck.
people play cards that remove rhystic and mystic in this format too because letting someone have a value engine is worse than than having one card for 3+ mana
@@W4llh4k To continue this thought process:
His deck is built to trigger Nadu Twice every turn cycle anyway. You're not drawing him any more or less cards than he would have drawn himself.
@@Sarkhamy Your point are valid, but pointing bigger stains in the wall doesnt remove the fact this card enter then into the category of value engine that likes being interacted. Also this is a CREATURE, so less counters can hit him before he pans out, and even then they can try and crop rot into cavern of souls. So if you spend interaction on the blidn crop rot, he resolves next turn, if you dont he resolves. Its a lose/lose. If meta proves to be able to adapt, good another one on the list. But this deck has all the tools to be a problem. I also dont want the card banned, but it seems a bit too over the line.
He’s too Disney for cEDH, which is saying a lot cuz the format is already broken. Question. In the history of commander, what creature ever said, “if you remove me or my stuff I get cards” oh yea, Leovold (he’s banned) Toucan Sam gotta go
Leovold was that plus Narset no-card-draw.
1. Rules committee doesn't ban or unban anything
2. They won't ban this until MH3 sales start to dip because Wizards likes money.
3. If you think that the RC is completely independent from Wizards influence, you need a reality check.
I haven't played against it yet, but I goldifshed it and if I have to play a 30-minute turn game against it I'm just gonna scoop bc it's not fun. I get it in a cEDH pod but it without a win con it's abysmal to play against solitaire.
If we agree that EDH is a fundamentally social format, where having fun and Rule 0 is THE most important thing. Then we don't need any RC to dictate what fun means. We trust rule 0 to do that, and it's easier than ever when you can SEE what commander the other player is using. If sit in a table and I see people pulling out Kenrith, Tymna and Kraum and Kinna, I am going to assume that I need to pull out the big guns. If it's Tolsimir and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, I see it can be a casual game.
Let's not treat people as if they were babies. There are plenty of busted commanders for casual. Let the tables balance themselves.
My argument is that Golos was banned because it can pay for its commander tax every time you recast it. Nadu does the same thing but better. It rewards you when the opponents try to interact with it.
The Rules Committee also has Prohibeations against not giving Mons a like and subscribe.
I really like the thumbnail for this vid
I feel like the shaved head is coming soon
the thing with paradox is its goes in every deck. Nadu only simic.
also i see a lot of hate but people dont realised you can steal Nadu and have him on your board !!!
That does nothing as they can just blink the Nadu and get it back or do it in response.
Ban the banned list, let’s see what this format can really do.
I think the genuine issue is for how strong he is, he's cheap to build, and easy to understand.
He gets people to CEDH levels super easily, which makes the people spending thousands on their decks really mad.
He's strong. Thats it.
I don't think the issue is price so much as how it's so easy to accidentally build a cEDH deck.
Take for example - Urza Lord High Artificer. That's a pretty strong commander in a casually built affinity deck, sure - and that's what the commander all but screams to be built as. But in a $350 tuned competitive deck it can genuinely duke it out at full power cEDH tables no problem. But the decklist is completely different - there's a whopping 2 creatures other than Urza, and neither of them are artifacts.
Nobody is going to accidentally obliterate their casual table turn 3 with a cEDH deck using Urza LHA. It's not prone to bad play patterns.
With Nadu, you get to a 7/10 cEDH deck by accident astonishingly easily. You accidentally build that by just hurling in Simic Goodstuff and protection artifacts - casual commander staples for the color combo. You can't do that with other cEDH decks, including the budget ones. You could get a 7/10 cEDH Urza HLA or similar for the same price tag by cutting some cards, but you'd be doing that on purpose.
That's why it's problematic. Also outside of Wizards-sponsored tournaments, cEDH players use mostly proxies anyways. People don't actually buy the cards lol, many decks are too expensive for that.
Personally I think it will self police because casual players will just start either hating it out right away and make it unfun to play or they simply will ask the Nadu player to use a different deck. There's plenty of other commanders that durdle like crazy (see anything that uses Venture into the Dungeon) but aren't generally seen as a big problem.
If anything I wish OBM was changed to not have an ETB and could only shoot the player (or their creatures) who is drawing a bunch, because as it is right now its actually prohibitive to other strategies and just like P-engine it makes games revolve around it.
i dont like the idea of asking people to power down...i had cases where a buddy would play a crappy version of etali that just took longer to get going, but then would stomp the table. so trying to build down to there level was always hard, for the fact of the deck itself could get strong.. it just wasnt fast becuase he wouldnt use mana dorks to help get it out.
RIP Paradox Engine
Put Nadu in my merfolk explore deck. Wizardcycle I find and win quickly
If the issue is it coming right back, what about commanders that circumvent command tax like Yuriko and Derevi?
No. It doesn’t win the game by itself all it does is draw cards and ramp. I know those are the two best things you can do but you get my point. The point of the commander ban list is to prevent games from being unfun or from just instantly winning the game easily. It doesn’t really go infinite with too many cards and it just won’t get banned in commander
Emrakul was banned by far less.
You mean the first one? Yeah I don't know whay that is on the banlist.
@@cedhtv 10ish years ago a deck full of mana rocks that was casting 15 cmc enmy in turn 6 and attacking with annhilator 6 was "wiping" 1 player (and the following turn the other two just killed the emmy player).
@@cedhtv Bad play patterns in casual. Either a colorless player running nothing but rocks putting that out turn 5, or a black player turn 1-3, proceeding to annihilator 6 one player and get dogpiled by the other 2. This results in one player almost immediately dying, the Emrakul player dying from the other 2, then a full length game for the last 2 while players 3 and 4 twiddle their thumbs waiting for the game to end.
When Emrakul Aeons Torn was played in casual it almost universally resulted in 1-2 players sitting and doing nothing for an hour. Not really banned for power reasons, but more for that.
Nadu is a 3 mana commander who, if he hits the board and gets removed immediately, will still get 2 triggers -- whatever you target him with, opponent's removal spell -- and potentially offset his own commander tax for you to just do it again next turn. The card paying it's own commander tax was part of the reason Golos got banned.
To be fair Nadu pays in cards Golos payed in mana in the form of lands
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena True Golos always gets a land so its more consistant. Nadu can get two lands in this situation and in 'worse case' draws two. Arguably better overall.
@@Y00bi inb4 the two cards are Crucible of Worlds and a Command Beacon lol Commander tax? whats that? lol
But yeah consistency will always beat out rng in terms of being better even if you can cheat commander tax with just two cards
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena i mean yeah consistently getting a land is better for getting around commander tax but I think drawing two cards is better overall?
@@Y00bi That's hard to say, as it depends on the decks strategy and who you are facing as if it is a Nekusar you kinda don't wanna draw cards as you lose life for it and can accidently kill yourself especially when the Nekusar player starts stacking the "You lose life for drawing cards" effects
When evaluating how good a card or strategy is it is always a "It depends" type of situation because nothing is ever black and white in a strategy game that is Turing Complete which magic is. It's also why people love brewing as they can come up with just about any wacky idea that could work within the confinements they set for themselves in deck building instead of netdecking the best decks
Literally if you wanted you could build a deck that is essentially a Turing Machine in both 60 card formats and EDH within the rules of Magic the Gathering. Imagine making a Turing Machine that is cEDH viable i sound too geeky now lol but here are some videos talking about it czcams.com/video/uDCj-QOp5gE/video.htmlsi=uMlJ4H8jkhDmfbvg
czcams.com/video/pdmODVYPDLA/video.htmlsi=lsnW0Xp2GdAvMgoy
czcams.com/video/YzXoFldEux4/video.htmlsi=sVG7_InV_En4geRj
I really recommend looking it up as it is really interesting
I'll wait to see more data before agreeing with banning. It's so early yet. If, as time goes on, Nadu players don't end up optimizing the lists and lines and Nadu stays an Eggs-length playline without a deterministic win, then we can talk again.
Just my opinion, anyway.
I agree I don’t like bans, when we have strategy and politics and 3 players with blue anything can be counted
On top of more removal, people also need to remember that stax is a thing. There are plenty of cards where you can limit the spells being played per turn or do damage each time a spell is played, so teching against it should be considered when deckbuilding. Also, recognizing which cards are the hazard, like Scute Swarm or any 0 or 1 mana equip, means removal should be prioritized when you see the few combo pieces that chain up. Still, a very strong Commander that should be disclosed in casual pods before play.
Is stax a thing though? It seems far from the current meta
Its gonna be another golos situation
Unban everything, casual pods are self regulating anyway, let cedh players cook with complete freedom
I will actully agree with this. Casual don't need a banlist.
He’s not gonna be banned because of power, but because of the annoying twice per turn trigger. I love Nadu, but I will never understand why that effect made it through. Keeping track of it isn’t hard, but it isn’t fun either, even as the Nadu player.
I hope he doesn’t get banned though. Having another powerful simic deck that isn’t Kinnan is refreshing.
Ive been playing Nadu in cedh for the last few weeks, in moxfiekd its pretty easy to track by adding counters to each creature. I imagine in paper just put a dice on top of the creature
@@Savage_Mr_Bean14 My go-to on paper is using colums for 0, 1, and 2 activations. The process is pretty smooth, but I still wish I was working with one less column lol.
The RC only bans cards that personally upsets them while they were playing against it in a game. The RC does not ban anything otherwise. If they banned things consistently I would likely agree with what you said they said they do. We all know what they say they want to do, but they do not ban based on this. Their actions or inactions tend to contradict their philosophy. Ultimately, this just boils down to groups Rule 0 banning it or not like they do other cards already. The RC should just stay out of it at this point since their ban list is completely subjective anyways.
And everything they unban is something that can be inside traded. Not like they could make money flipping Sway of the Stars, so it'll never be unbanned.
Yes, ban in ALL formats
great rant. keep me posted on the bans in the future. I was bummed when they banned Golo's but understandable. good point to have that rule zero convo before a game
Are players getting annoyed by it because CZcamsrs are telling them to feel that way? 🤔🤔🤔
Don't think so. I haven't told them to feel that way.
Cedh needs a shift in the meta, just the same as with every other single Magic format. Banning it leaves a bad precedent for its health and its future.
It’s not much different than 4c omnath and risen reef turns god those can go forever and nowhere fast. Casual already is plagued with op commanders that encourage solitaire esque play patterns and value turns that take forever this isn’t the worst offender it’s just the most current.
Nadu is the problem in cedh too. In right deck this is just second rhystic, and in cedh noone ever deals with rhystic, so Nadu players just get infinitely more advantage and win their games
Thats the craziest question Ive ever heard
If they want to ban Nadu then they had better ban underworld breach first. I cannot tell you how many times my table has gone into the long game and somebody draws this one card and just wins.
are players playing nadu or is nadu playing for them?
Yes nobody I've seen is playing blink. Why is nobody doing this?
Play a tournament with 8 players running nadu.
The usual "win" turn takes like 30+ minutes and if people have interaction they fire it early on and then the table sits there and watches them, potentially fizzle, even if its not likely.
So yea, that gets VERY OLD VERY QUICKLY ... its not healthy, if thats one of the stronger decks (and cheap too, for being only 2 colors) , nobody wants to play in the pod with 2+ Nadu players as you have to watch what they are doing, as its also VERY easy to cheat with nadu and get the trigger more than 2 times per creature , as you have to very carefully ensure how many triggers each creature has (some use dice for that and that just eats up even more time ticking up all the counters).
Its a nice thing to play and build the "perfect" Nadu list , but running this card in tournaments, i am already sick of it ...
I'm not seeing how that's any different from seeing basically half of players on cedh tournaments right now play either Rog/Si or Tymna/Kraum and if you count stuff like Kinnan, Kenrith and Mazda the types of decks on tournaments is remarkably small and homogenized.
That's just the way cedh works if you ask me: no reason to suggest the ban hammer again, the very first week the card is even out.
@dimitriid people just mad that their boring, durdle commander is going against another boring, durdle commander
Bro it’s a three card combo minimum. More a of engine than anything in not the strongest color pair. Nadu is bringing some variety to both Simic and Cedh in general.
Whether or not it should be banned, its WAY too early.
True Aswell!
We would first ban Dockside, Lion's eye, sol ring, mana crypt, consult and tainted before this.
The bans that they have done are embarrassing in modern play. They are not professionals and should not be in charge of caring for any format
it’s not that crazy lol
The Bird has been out for a week people haven’t found out how to play against it yet come back in month or two and reevaluate after to see that it’s no better than kinnan…
The golden rule of casual is "Build for fun, play to win." Nadu is really strong but fine in the 99. He's basically a turbo powercrept Kira Great Glass Spinner with combo potential. If you bring him to a casual table as commander though you are really missing the point of casual commander.
That golden rule is genuinely stupid as what's fun to someone else such as infect or MLD/Mill/Stax/Battle Cruiser/Vintage/Modern/any actual turn 2 format such as vintage is not fun to others, like fun is so subjective how does one define it? Like you can't really build for fun but you can play for fun as again fun is subjective on a person to person basis so you would know what's fun for you. I would hope people would have fun trying to figure out how to get around a obstacle as the game is supposed to be a win but try to prevent your opponent from winning back and forth type of thing but battle cruisers exist and the ultra casuals not liking people running actual good to ok cards instead of shit slow slug fest
My point is "How do you define fun?" as not being able to define it or a majority agreeing on what it is is a major flaw in casual just like casuals not being able to agree on how the damn power scale works of 1-10 for decks. Like no ones numbers are going to be the same on the scale and there will be some decks that are stronger than other starts however it does not mean they are not a 7 it just mean it is the superior 7 at the table
People who play EDH tend to mana dorks while cEDH players use mana rocks. This leads to being able to do stupid thing at a slower pace. They will use cards like deadeye navigator to blink Nadu for 2 and restart the process all over again! Get 40 creatures in play then play Throne of God-Pharaoh and pass turn!
Correction, cEDH players like to play mana dorks if they can because those tend to be 1 mana. And tbh, a casual player would do the same thing a cEDH player would if presented the opportunity.
No offence, but if the Rule committee tells how i should build our decks, then why bother playing the game