NTSB Preliminary Report PA-31 Loss of Control on Takeoff Albany NY
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I retired from professional flying after 47 years and my Before Takeoff habit never changed. All items were read and accomplished yet when cleared for takeoff I did a swift look around the cockpit and visually looked at the items that could kill me/us. I moved the controls for free and correct movement, flaps set and visually confirmed with the indicator, trim set and visually checked against the indicator, no lights (red or orange), seat locked . Sure, these same items are in the Pre-taxi, Taxi, Before Takeoff checklist but late night, fatigue, complacency, circadian rhythm out of phase have downed pilots better than me.
A mantra, of sorts. Ultimate respect for everything and everyone.
“CIGARTIP” controls, Instruments, Gas, altimeter setting, run up, trim, interior, prop. This is said out loud after the paper checklist.
This! You gotta double-check the 'kill me' items when cleared for T/O.
I always re-trimmed for takeoff while taxiing after each landing.
Thank you for your post.
@@jiyushugi1085I always taxi with all trims in the neutral positions.
Breaks my heart. So sad. I had a trim do that in a C182 2 miles off coast over Atlantic Ocean at night off Palm Beach. The trim got stuck in the nose up attitude due to AP error. I had to muscle the plane level and then pull the fuse and then yank on the manual trim. The panic was real. The muscle needed to correct it in a 182 was intense. Can’t imagine a twin of that size. Thank you for your reports. They are so valuable.
Same with me in a Twin Comanche but occurred as I raised the flaps after take off. That big flying stabilator is pretty heavy when mistrimmed.
This is what I fear... first 200-300 feet off the ground was uneventful.... either she was overcome by the force at that point or that is when the trim ran away....
was that an actual AP error, or one of the situations juan has covered many times on this channel, where someone is flying in icing conditions with the autopilot on, unaware of the AP putting in more and more trim as it adjusts for ice buildup, then the pilot is caught off guard when disconnecting the AP?
@@shodancat10000
@@shodancat1000 You wouldn't get icing that quickly just after take off.
Juan, once as a student pilot (with my instructor ) I set the trim for take off, but as soon as we lifted off we pitched up significantly more than expected and it took tremendous forward pressure to maintain proper pitch. I indicated to my instructor that something was wrong, he then set the trim based on how it felt at that point, right as we were climbing out, which then indicated significant nose down trim. After landing and close examination, we discovered that the indicator was just completely wrong/broken. I learned from that point to check the trim tab position vs what the indicator is showing as part of preflight.
Good flight schools teach students not just the items of the preflight and where they are but what right or wrong looks like. Unfortunately most training aircraft have lots of wobbly parts (a working, accurate fuel gauge that tells you more than "not empty" in a C172 is a rareity IME). Stay safe.
I mean isn't the flight control surfaces not something you check anyway? So such a massive out of trim setting should be obvious - shouldn't it?
Shut up if you have no knowledge of something @@RubenKelevra
@@RubenKelevra you might think that, but as a student doing a preflight, with little experience, you wouldn’t know better. It doesn’t take much tab angle to push that elevator.
@@acirinelli but we're talking about a full trim up situation. That's 28° deflection on the flight control surface. That should be glaringly obvious that something is amiss here.
If student pilots don't learn to check the flight control surfaces properly for functionality before flight, the training should be modified to make sure they do.
I met Natalie once a couple of weeks before the accident. I had toured her through the Western Canada Aviation Museum. She was an incredibly interesting individual who already had accomplished a great deal in her short life.
It wasn't and accident. It was an incident cause by human fault, which is always the cause of incidents, other than acts of nature.
@@molonlabe9602 Maybe so, but we are all Human don't forget, and we all make mistakes, am sure you have made many yourself! This beautiful young woman paid the price with her life. Please show some respect, am sure she would never want to injure anyone on the ground or loose her own life, due to such a tragic error.
AFAIK, Natalie was not a social media "influencer", nor did she have any CZcams channel. If anything, her social media presence was limited to her landscape photography. Not flying. She was a very energetic, strong, quiet and hard working woman who lived in reality, not virtually. She was respected as an arctic and wilderness guide, a bush pilot and flew for Kenn Borek Air. Google her and tell me you are not impressed with her accomplishments. And the love and respect her co-workers, clients and friends had for her. Runaway trim, or skipping the checklist for trim on takeoff are both possibilities. I've had the electric trim runaway on take off in a Twin Comanche. Almost killed me. Disclosure: I didn't know her but did take the time to Google her. What an impressive person. And a tragedy.
Thank you for not joining the crowd screaming "pilot error." Let the investigation continue.
"flew for Ken Borek" is a top endorsement all by its own. I met those guys years ago in the Antarctic. To fly in those conditions, only the best are taken.
agreed. also did not know her but did some research. trim runaway is a distinct possibility. has one myself on downwind once and it was a battle to get the thing on the ground in one piece. blessings to her family and friends in their grief.
@TootSocialTV..I Just finished watching the entire video a second time and with captions on. I couldn't find where she was refered to as a social media "influencer". For about two seconds beginning at:39 in the video he says "she is pretty well known on social media and immediately goes into her recently acquiring her ATP and then her total flight time and time in type. Could you please show me at what time in the video did he use the word influencer. Show me soon or be forever branded as just another provider of using disinformation to sully the reputation of a well respected and accomplished You Tube contributor.
I'm sorry, her loss is sad..but her talent was in adventure photography, guiding, and loving life..She was very much on Social media.. But flying a twin engine Navajo solo without the utmost focus will bring good people down..Us living pilots know that..RIP Natalie.
Many moons ago I was flying a Piper Seneca ll and on a take-off just after lift off I used the electric trim switch on the column to trim nose up slightly as I became airborne. The electric switch on the control column stuck and continued to trim to near full nose up. As the nose pitched up the controller noticed I was in trouble and cleared me to land any runway. I was too busy to respond. Fortunately I was able to use a combination of the manual trim wheel and the electric switch to trim nose down and was able to recover before stalling the aircraft 500ft off the runway from a very steep climb. It required all my strength pushing the column forward at the time. Then it got worse. The electric trim switch I used again (stupid move) now stuck and continued trimming in the nose down position. Again all my strength to pull the nose up to a level position and this time with the other hand on the manual trim was able to recover and I took up the controllers suggestion and landed on a separate runway causing the go-around of a B-767 which was on final. On the Seneca the breaker switches were the type you cannot pull. The Navajo has breakers you can pull. My advice is know where the breaker is on the trim actuator. I'm thinking this accident may be a similar situation I encountered and I'm not sure if the accident investigators could tell if she had a runaway trim on take off. The accident site revealed the elevator screw trimmed back but not how it got there IMHO.
I've *never* understood a design where the trim system can overpower the pilot.
Low time SEL private pilot is asking, "Do emergency procedures include MASTER OFF to counter an erroneous trim motor?" Seems quicker than sorting out circuit breakers, but causes other problems (many of which are lesser evils during day VFR).
That sounds more likely scenario than missed checklist item
That sounds fucking terrifying. And I wonder if someone like a young woman with less upper body strength would have been able to recover it at all
I think the 1970 PA39 Twin Comanche had a similar Trim Switch as the Seneca II and I also experienced runaway trim when I trimmed on takeoff after raising the flaps. Like you said, it took a lot of strength to overcome! I never liked that particular double switch on the Piper Twins. Did the Navajo have the same switch?
Navajo operator here. My tips on trimming the PA31. The checklist gets you to check the trim 3 times before takeoff… for a reason. Always check trim tab position during preflight, it is pretty obvious if it is not neutral. Never trust the indicator, roll all the way forward and then 3 full turns back for take off. Rolling the electric trim back in the flare is just sloppy flying. Depending on autopilot installed, it can roll the trim back if left on while on the ground. If you weren’t the last one to fly it or it has been in the workshop… be aware.
Thanks Peter for your feedback. Do you have any more suggestions to those you are about to fly the PA-31?
I love the content this channel brings but I have to speak up as a professional airline pilot of 36 years and roughly 23,000 hours. (Former military pilot and rotary wing as well). The NTSB has not put out a final report and I am surprised that Juan would "suggest" that this accident was, or may have been caused by not following the checklist - and reading the thread many have grabbed onto this idea when "None of us" actually know the cause yet, not even the NTSB. As many who have flown this type of aircraft have stated in this thread, they doubt the trim would be in the full aft position from the previous landing. Those that have flown this aircraft also point out that the aircraft has a history of trim indication and other problems, including runaways. If I were to "speculate", and that is all it is, had the trim been in the full aft position at take-off, the crash would have happened right over the runway, or at least on the airport property shortly after lift-off. The fact that the aircraft appeared to level off at roughly 200', suggests to me that that is where the problem first began, likely with the first input of trim after take-off as usually happens when the pilot can first feel the plane and fine tune the trim for the actual weight and balance of the aircraft. With that first input of trim if the contactor inside the switch stuck it would continue to run away. At that point where the aircraft was still close to normal trim and aerodynamic forces she was able to physically have enough strength to push the control column forward to level off and fight the runaway trim. But as the trim system continued to run aft it would have been impossible for most pilots, (men included), to fight the increasing aerodynamic forces. Hence the aircraft started a steep climb, and losing speed. With the loss of speed and the engines at high power, and the "Thrust line" being right of center on both these engines for a Navajo, (correct me if I am wrong for this AC), the lift for the wings would be shifted to the right of both engines. This would cause the barrel rolling to the left with the lowering speed. (Plus the torque of the engines).
The trim is checked at least two or three times prior to take-off, and should have been looked at during the walk-around for this type and size of aircraft. I highly doubt she would have missed the trim 3 times, and from what I have heard about Natalie, she sounded like a professional pilot, not a "Hop in and let's go type". And with only 22 hours on this aircraft, and flying it single pilot, I'd bet she was checking things more than once. And from what I have seen flying with female pilots, they tend to be more cautious than many of us male pilots. Hopefully the NTSB will be able to find the cause for this accident, but for this size of aircraft and no FDR, (Flight Data Recorder), we may never know for sure what happened.
Now for those and their speculations and comments about female pilots and the number of crashes here on CZcams, think "algorithms", where CZcams pushes certain videos and subjects to the top. I have no idea what the stats are, but I know some awesome female pilots. Heck, just look at the SouthWest 737 that had the engine blow up last year, with shrapnel from that engine piercing the cabin and also causing an explosive decompression. Two major startling unrelated failures at the same time. And it was an amazing female Captain that saved the day on that flight. Now I want to hear her story!
Years ago we had a PA31T that had up pitch on TO. The pilot got it under control with electric trim. The problem was the trim indicator had slipped showing TO when it obviously wasn’t. He was stout guy and said it took about all he had to keep it under control.
I can believe it. First flight of the day I always used to run the trim through its full range and physically check the trim wheel position in neutral before the pre-flight so I could then confirm it was neutral on the actual surface during the external walk-around. That's not something I would do on an aeroplane I had just flown and was about to fly again straight away e.g. during a fuel stop, but every time when someone else had touched the aeroplane
Isn't the flight control surfaces not something you check before takeoff? So such a massive out of trim setting should be obvious - shouldn't it?
@@harryspeakup8452
That is a solid tip. Thank you for sharing that. I will incorporate that into my pre take off checklist.
You are a gentleman sir.
I looked her up. She was an amazing woman full of life and what happened to her terrible. Hate to see when people die young and have so much to left to give to the world.
too ,much self-confidence
she was Canadian? That means she was a fascist so why was she allowed to fly in the USA?
@@jerryeinstandig7996
How the hell would you know if she had too much confidence?
I will tell you who has too much confidence as they sit behind their key board so bravely. YOU!
This nearly happened to me in a C172 during the long cross-country flight for my PPL more than 20 years ago. Landed (trim up) and thought I could do the pre-take off checklist from memory. Launched, pitched up suddenly but was able to muscle nose down before stall. Fixed trim and knew what an idiotic mistake I'd made. I've been very big about checklists ever since. Real lesson for me in that mistake. Be careful out there and watch those bad attitudes -- the mental ones. I feel so sorry for this poor pilot.
Nearly same feeling of embarrassment as forgetting to switch off yaw damper when hand flying an approach.
if you need so much trim-up for the flare how do touch-and-goes work? Do you frantically retrim after you touch?
And I thought a C172 has a very small (forgivable?) trim tab. Surprised it had a such dramatic effect.
@@tim1398Not sure what this guy is talking about, landing trim should be almost the exact same as take off trim. You hardly need to fool with trim on a touch and go if at all.
I just posted a longer comment, but I had this happen to me as a student, but it was set "correctly", the indicator was just broken/wrong so it was not actually correct at all.
I used to fly the PA-31-350 back in the 80's we used to manually roll full nose down trim to the stop, then count back the number of nose up trim wheel revolutions to achieve the proper take off elevator trim position. This was because the elevator trim indicator was considered completely unreliable. RIP fellow aviator
1..2..3.
@@marksantora9820 yep, I used to use 3 1/2 turns.
That's interesting. How does the indicator become un-calibrated?
@@hawkdsl I don’t know.. old heads back then never would trust it and taught the new guys the same.. that was almost 40 years ago 😂
My first commercial bird, we had two in the fleet, both of them had the same issue.
Loved the machine super stable, but ended up flying it out of trim both ways so many times. Just nature of ops in the old days.
Looking at it now it was far from being a reputable ops, but the flow had been drill into me flaps up and spin that wheel and count.
Later on moved to a turboprop that was actually younger than me, to be told after my first landing what the f. are doing with that trim?
I’ve got a couple thousand hours in the Chieftain flying freight and passengers. Highest regards for the aircraft. However I do not remember trimming during flare to minimize yoke force. Trimming during flap schedule sure. Our one airplane airline hired a new pilot who, on his FIRST FLIGHT topped the tanks, filled every seat plus baggage and attempted a takeoff out of Prescott. There was an elevator issue that was unknown whereby the elevator travel stop screw had backed out limiting forward yoke travel to something less than full travel.
With the excessive load and aft cg the new hire did his usual 80 knot rotation and as soon as he selected gear up was flying an aircraft he could not control. The nose rose uncontrollably and evidently could not reverse the trend. Rather than put the gear back down and try and land, he opted to chop power and pancaked off the side of the runway around a power pole , fully 1,500 feet from the end of the runway.
Injuries galore but no fatalities, even when the tanks ruptured.
Airline folded. Desert Pacific Airlines gone.
There were only 3 pilots, me, the chief pilot and the new hire. So my brief but glorious domicile in Sedona Arizona came to an end.
Years ago I stopped by the Sedona airport for lunch. Radio traffic was on a loud speaker. A Cesna Skymaster took off with the tow bar attached. Once notified, he circled and shut down the front engine, I assume to minimize damage with the prop/towbar. Unfortunately he then could not maintain altitude as it's a warm sunny day. While desperately trying to restart the front engine, he kind of landed just off the runway, plane heavily damaged, no serious injuries - except a young lady who was a passenger joined us - said something about bus tickets
@@RealJustinTyme I flew the Navajo out of Sedona on Grand Canyon tours. Sound familiar?
All chains have a weakest link.
Injuries galore eh..do you think that guy will ever walk again?
@@gpilotgary1
Beautiful country. Never got tired of all that red rock.
Geez, what a damn shame. Ppl may not realize how heavy the forces are on the yoke in these bigger twins when such a full force condition is evident. Sad for her family, RIP aviator.
I learned that when i got to fly a c-130 sim at Miramar. Sim instructor told me to use the trim switch to move up and down. I was trying to strong arm it before he told me what to do. I am not a pilot btw
@@user-cl5zy5qn5d Still, knowing how much force it took was probably a good thing as it at least gave you an idea for future reference.
I never understood until in my airline training I had the opportunity to see a runaway. It happens terrifyingly fast and if you don’t respond immediately you can easily become a passenger along for the ride.
Also, the NTSB preliminary reports are out on the two recent Lockheed 12 mishaps.
The fatal in California was very obvious, video evidence that the flaps were not retracted before takeoff, and a stall from 300 feet resulted.
In the landing mishap in Jackson, GA involving a commercial rated You Tuber that we all know, it was found that the right hand wheel brake braided flexible hose fitting was torqued only finger tight and that there was a fluid leakage in that area. The left hand brake hose was fine, no leakage. The cockpit tailwheel lock was engaged, but the corresponding locking tab on the tailwheel strut did not engage it.
Remember that the runway was a small, narrow grass strip with a two foot diameter tree a short distance from the left side of the runway. The impact with that tree caused the catastrophic damage to the plane and the serious injuries to the three occupants. All the holes in the cheese lines up, and if one of those three things had not happened....maybe no accident.
This video is a Cessna 310
You must watch Hoover to be using the Swiss cheese analogy.
Several folks use the swiss cheese, including Juan.@@a.n.7863
@@OOpSjmNeither the current video nor the one being described are about a 310. What are you referring to?
@@a.n.7863Swiss cheese is a common expression regarding accident investigation. It’s been a thing since long before Hoover’s channel.
No matter how experienced you are, no matter how many years you have been doing a thing, you are not above or beyond making a mistake.
Even influencers?
For the low amount of hours the pilot had on the plane, she seemed too overconfident and missed the trim ie never completed the checklist
Yep. And the longer you work with whatever dangerous equipment it is you work with, be it a plane or or industrial equipment, saws, whatever, familiarity with the equipment and all your experience can dull your awareness and mitigation of danger. It is essential to be disciplined and aware.
Sadly, this is true. Even the most capable, competent and conscientious make mistakes. Like the sea, the sky and gravity is brutally unforgiving.
@@mgratkThe Navy taught us that complacency kills!
I spent alot of hours in the PA31s. My right knee ALWAYS was in contact with the trim wheel. ALWAYS. Had a Piper Aire autopilot that went uncommanded full nose up in cruise. I was able to alert the passengers before uncoupling. Also had a nose up trim runaway after rotation in a Chieftian coming out of Joliet, IL at gross weight. Pulled the breaker but it still took all my strength to keep it from stalling. My advice: positive contact with trim wheel and know where pitch trim breaker is without looking....in every aircraft with electric trim.
I'm not a pilot, so I'm shocked at how many comments there are like yours. I've been a motorcycle rider for 48 of my 61 years and I think y'all are crazy.
I'm not a pilot but I'm guessing if near full up trim is normally used to make a landing easier then the pilot would need to be fast getting the trim back to normal on a go-around.
@onemoremisfit never used much trim on landing.. Imho, trimming for flare is a bad habit. I always trimmed for stabilized approach though.
@ronjones-6977 mechanical and electrical components fail even on your motorcycle. We can't pull over and stop. 25+k hrs and 40 years as a professional pilot. Stuff happens.
@@onemoremisfit near full up trip is not routine for landing.
Just an observation...As you know, at the big airline, resetting the trim to neutral is also on the AFTER landing checklist.
... for the very same reason you don't leave the car in 'D' when you park it. Also force of habit always turn OFF fan, A/C, lights, radio, etc., before switching off the engine; and making sure switches and settings are OFF before starting the engine; to minimize load and make starting easier.
@@paulsherman51 All modern cars that I'm aware of bypass all the electrical load except what is necessary to start the engine.
Which airplane at the big airline are you referring to?
@@157294 All of them. Resetting the trim after landing was on the checklist of all aircraft types. It's also on at least one PA-31 checklist.
Thanks for covering this! This is the airport I fly from (as a passenger), my sister actually watched the plane go down from her desk at work.
That is never a fun thing to watch. :(
I had a trim run away on a PA-31 with dual camera holes, in fact the Navajo that was used for the certification for the STC for two holes. It happened during takeoff and normally the hem on your blue jeans would feel the movement of the trim wheel, but I had shorts on that day. I made a 90 / 270 keeping level with power applications and got my ass back on the ground. The trim had jammed so even after I stopped the runaway condition it was still stuck full down. It gets real heavy she had to have yoke in her chest. The Navajo was very forgiving but man she could turn on you real fast. I made it through 6500 hours of aerial mapping before careers end.
Wow, thanks for posting your experience. If you read my post you will see that I don't believe she forgot the trim in the checklist. I think she had a runaway as you did. Great work getting the plane back on the ground safely. I had a runaway Stab on a 767 in the middle of the night about 8 years ago, but was a non-event as we stopped it quickly when disconnecting the auto-pilot. Having lots of GA experience as well, I can relate to what you went through. Sent chills through me when I read it!
I am currently in training for my PPL . This very thing happened to me. I normally train in Cessna Skyhawks with G1000 avionics. Most of them have manual trim. On the day of my second solo I was given a newer Skyhawk with electric trim, that has a toggle button on the yoke. I did my run up as normal, got take off clearance and proceeded to do my take off roll. All of a sudden my plane prematurely nosed up. Startled the heck out of me. This plane was forcefully pointing itself up and my airspeed was decaying rapidly. I applied all the force I could muster forcing the nose down. I had no idea what was happening initially until I was cleared to my first turn from upwind that I realized I was trimmed all the way up. I corrected the trim and that literally saved me . Scarry situation. I am sure its worse in a twin engine aircraft.
Also a good habit to note the location of your trim and AP breaker prior to takeoff. Its part of my run up checklist. Especially if you rent, it could be in a different spot than last time...
V good advice.
Every checklist, every item, every time!!
I own and operate a PA-31. I think it is unlikely the trim would be set so far back during the previous phase - landing. As part of the pre-flight walk around trim tab position is meant to be verified at neutral. I do eye ball the tab. Electric trim is checked twice pre-takeoff, first after both engines start(full operation tested) and then on pre-TO, Check SET for configuration. The indicators can be sticky and if in doubt a tap will normally unstick it, hence eye ball the tab.The electric trim is activated on mine 2 ways, manually via a toggle switch mounted on the pilot's yoke, and via the AP in an auto mode. The toggle switch is prone to failure and could possibly jam I guess. I think there may have been an AD long ago for a mod on that, certain to have been done if required. I haven't seen any switch on the co-pilot's yoke.
The AP's operation, or at least mine, Altimatic IIIB, is unreliable. I only engage in the cruise and then ready to pull the breaker. Given the accident flight was an IFR flight and seemed stable immediately after take-off I wonder whether the AP was engaged (Bendix FCS 810?? has electric trim authority), commanded full up trim. It is a candidate for cause, at least should be considered. I just looked at my checklists and any mention of when to switch the AP on, it may be in the manual for the AP though.
If she had 20 hours on type could have taken her by surprise. To anybody reading, if this happened to me at 200ft, I wouldn't pull the circuit breaker, I would just go for the master immediately, get the ac under control with manual wheel and then pull the breaker and re-enagge the master. Your window to recover is small and if you pulled the wrong CB imagine debating that at the Pearly Gates.
I used to fly a PA-31 in Lidar work. I agree with this post that you are never trimmed full nose up in the flare. It is marginally above neutral and the yoke is not heavy in the hand right to touchdown. I'm a great fan of Juan, brilliant analyst, but I think he just read the NTSB prelim to us here and left it at the easy out.
The airplane climbed to 200 feet and flew level the entire length of the runway until a climb was initiated. If full nose up trim was the cause, that would have been evident from liftoff. Full nose up trim does not cause barrel rolls.
I've raised elsewhere the possibility of a seat slide back on pitch up, or less likely, on the addition of takeoff power. That scenario would account for all of these observed behaviors. Feet gone from the pedals, initial sharp pull up as the yoke arm straightens and then the choice is either climb or let go, and fighting to grab it back which becomes hopeless when the rolls start.
Countering my view, which is merely a scenario to be considered, was a statement that Hos aren't like Cessnas, that the spar shortens the backward travel. The question is whether, even if it slid back to the spar, any pilot would still be able to exercise full control and keep hands and feet on the controls.
@@Doodles1947 The seat slid is excellent reasoning, so much so, I'm inclined to believe this was the cause. Hopefully, the seat is not damaged extensively from the crash to investigate that possibility.
@@Doodles1947 Interesting comment. I also noticed flight was stable initially. I have had seats move, you have to keep your cool and then light touch the yoke. If you try to use it to lever you seat forward, Uh-oh! Is there a chance this is an elevator issue. There are ADs out on the elevator, and SBs and SLs. Loss of control can occur due to bungee failure, cracking, and I think also there is a torque tube issue too. A couple of others. I am starting to get a bad feeling about this. I am getting annual next couple of week and going to have a big look at the elevator. The cracking is microscopic
@@Doodles1947 Maybe she was trying to control the aircraft via the trim after losing the elevator main
@@hawkdsl I took the time a few minutes ago to talk to an old friend who is ex TSB in Canada. He has investigated two fatals due to seat failure. Neither were a slide back on the rails, but a failure of the seat back. The pilot was unable to control the aircraft in both cases. It is certainly an emergency when that happens. Life is at risk and recovery can be very difficult.
If this happened, the pilot would have had her hand on the yoke, and likely thumb on the trim control. Right hand on the throttles. If it is not initiated by initial acceleration, and this doesn't appear to be as the solution is to pull back the throttles while the aircraft is below flying speed, then it would take a pitch up to change the deck angle and start the slide or cause the seat back to fail. As she goes back, she pulls back as the yoke is all she has to hold on to in that split second. This exacerbates the problem as the seat moves beyond the physical limits of her reach. She may be inadvertently activating the trim switch through this, and inducing roll with her hand still on the yoke.
The one thing that needs explaining in the context of this speculative cause is the position of the trim actuator rod. The first quite plausible explanation is that through this ordeal she started with thumb on the trim, indeed may have been trimming when it happened, and her grip tightened with the nose up trim being actuated for a period. The other possible is not born out entirely by accident investigation experience. It is true that sometimes a report will include a statement that the position of controls in the wreckage results from cable stretching in the crash sequence. My friend says that a cable pulling at the actuator end may result in a circular motion imparted to the threaded rod. However, for that to happen, one of the two cables must have broken.
Perhaps others may have a direct answer to this point, but it seems that this was a very small woman. There is a photo in Juan's video of her in the cockpit. She is jammed as far forward as she can go. I take it that is so she can reach the rudder pedals. Even if the Navajo seat doesn't have the backward travel of a Cessna, she doesn't have to go very far back before she does not have effective contact with the pedals first, and secondly the ability to effect downward pitch.
And, it may be something entirely different.
Your accident reports are a great service to the loved ones of those who’ve perished in these accidents. I’ve lost a few friends in helicopter and airplane accidents over the years but have only had the scuttle butt as to there causes never anything near an official report. How I wish you and the resources that you rely upon had been around at the time but very grateful that you are here at this moment in time to help those survivors of the victims of these incidents understand what has caused they’re accident.
Thank you Juan
I fly this make and model commercially and this aircraft requires a significant amount of nose up trim when coming in to land. Not resetting the trim after landing/before takeoff nearly got me after taking this aircraft for a post maintenance check flight. Checklists and flows save lives. As for the potential for trim runaway, we are taught to know exactly where the elec trim CB is and to pull it immediately if runaway is suspected. A very unfortunate accident.
Thank you so much for covering this tragedy, which was prominently reported in Canada. Natalie Gillis had many talents, including photography. Reading the comments here suggests that there may have been an electric trim runaway.
Elevator sometimes goes to full up position when you do an auto pilot test. I fly several Piper aircraft that have the same auto pilot system and when you do a system check, you have to be sure after you disengage it before takeoff to readjust the pitch trim to its neutral or takeoff setting.
🤔🤔😲
I have very little Navajo time, mostly 414, 421, Aztec, etc.
Never encountered that, but had one questionable trim time in a Baron58.
@@hotrodray6802 I have encountered that in most PA 28 that I have flown and I also experienced it in several Cessna 172s. After initiating an auto pilot check according to the checklist I often find the elevator trim, dialed all the way up or down, which means it is trying to seek, an altitude. In any case, it’s always safe to include all trim checks prior to taking off. This will include elevator, aileron if equipped and rudder if equipped. Fly safe!
So sad. Young girl with a great future ahead of her. Like I found from practicing Dentistry for 46 years, be prepared, have at least a mental checklist, don't rush into any situation involving a large amount of risk, avoid any distraction, concentrate, and have an exit plan as needed.
PA-31 has a balance spring on the elevator and the trim cables have been known to break. Also the Navajo 310-350 could have flap dissymmetry causing the roll. 310 had mechanical stops on the flap tracks to limit the dissymmetry and allow rudder control. Later 350 had flap sensors. Sad to hear
A veteran CFI taught me the "7-up" flow for both Before Takeoff and Before Landing that works amazingly well in a lot of planes. You start at the far left, move to the center, and go to the floor and cover switches, flaps, gear, throttle quadrant, trims, and tank selectors. I ended up doing this before startup and before shutdown as well. If you check the trim this many times, it's unlikely you'll be surprised by it when the action starts.
I spent half my career in GA and are now nearing retirement from a large airline. As much fun as it all was ( compared to airline flying) I know my survival was as much due to good fortune as good management.
Im trying to remember but we had a procedure with the 135 Navajo's in Alaska where the pilots before flight would turn the elevator trim all the way in one direction, can't remember if it was up or down, then turn the trim wheel back something like a full 4 or 5 complete turns, then you knew for sure it was in the takeoff position, without relying on the elevator trim indicator which could be wrong.
I flew the Navajo in the late 80s and my old Alaskan mentor "Cloud Dancer" taught me that along with a few other things to look for on the preflight that piper did not tell you about.
The two 'level-offs' make me wonder if she was fighting a runway trim condition. She may have attempted to manually trim the nose down after takeoff only to have it return to full nose up.
I watched it happen. She was struggling to keep it level. Nose kept pulling up and she would push it down. Was like watching a small roller coaster after the initial steep climb and barrel roll. The plane wanted to go up. The image has haunted me.
Trim is essentially corresponding to airspeed (and CG), so sometimes the fastest way of dealing with leftover nose up trim on take off is just to reduce to landing power and fly at Vmc/Vs0. You won't be able to overpower the elevator with your arms and crank on the trim wheel - power reduction is almost immediately going to make it far more manageable.
Man! There are so many accidents that are tied to trim issues. Whether it is a runaway trim under AP control or just distraction and negligence leading to failure to set proper trim for the phase of flight.
I used to fly PA-31s in Australia and discovered a disturbing thing about those trim indicators. Unlike many aircraft those trim indicators are an electric meter with a plastic cover. I found that if you wanted to you could make the indicator show almost anything you wanted it to just by touching or dragging your finger across that plastic cover. The more staticy the conditions the more you could move it around. So if she was accustomed to touching things while running the checklist she may well have had a false reading. Just sliding into the seat will generate static electricity. I got into the habit every time I flew one to wind the trim full forward and then back 3 1/2 turns. I determined the 3 1/2 turns by winding back until the indicator showed the correct position on all my flights over a month or so. Worked for me, I'm still here.
Tragic, absolutely tragic.
This woman was well trained and well qualified and I will not pass judgement on the loss of control. However, as an FBO on both a county resort area airport and on a regional airport in East Tennessee, I must share a trim story that fortunately did not end in tragedy for the Private Pilot (and his family)of the PA32-260, who landed at my location and pulled up to the fuel pumps ( yes we were a small county airport without fuel trucks.) The agitated pilot came in to the reception area and asked if we had a mechanic on duty, saying that he had the trim full forward and still had to hold forward elevator on his trip from Cedar Key Florida. I sent my trusted A and I out to look at the airplane, while the excited pilot went to the lounge area. Less than 5 minutes later, Harry came in holding a 25 pound concrete half-block, which the pilot had used to tie down the tail of the airplane. This is done at many small coastal airports with ramp areas mostly on sand. However forgetting to untie the block will definitely affect the CG. I heard a person much wiser than I, say... "I'd rather be lucky than good" , which is why I made the reference to the model of Cherokee 6 he was flying. The earlier 260 HP version of the plane has a useful load 70 pounds greater than the later (and heavier) 300HP models which were both powered by the same Lycoming IO-540 base models with different dash designations.
I flew the Navajo and Chieftan and remember when a female pilot took off with full nose up (edited) trim and only survived because the male pax in the right seat helped push the control column forward with her. I would often trim the nose up during approach to take the pressure off the column as it is much easier to fly the approach and make corrections. After touchdown you raise flaps and roll the trim wheel back. I can imagine that as the aircraft accelerated after take off during this incident, the control forces just increased as the airflow over the elevator increased to the point where she needed both arms to push forward and the electric trim was too slow to correct.
Please reread your comment. Pushing with full nose down trim? Did you mean to say pulling or that the trim had been set to full nose up? The only reason I can think of to push with full nose down trim would be to unload the elevator to readjust the trim. It's unusual to have to do this, but maybe.
James Culliton gave me a multi engine instructor check ride in a C-310Q while I was working in Chico as a flight instructor, 1981. Immediately after takeoff he turned on the autopilot, (which I had never used in this airplane) l had my hands pretty full for a few seconds trying to overpower, then disconnect from the right seat. His point was pretty valid, as I had not familiarized myself with it, and as an instructor in the airplane, would likely need to know this, being in a seat with no disconnect on the yoke. Having a light twin at takeoff power attempt to go out of trim, or control is pretty intimidating to a n 1100+ hr pilot.
My cousin was killed in his C310 in the mid eighties in a very similar accident right after takeoff departing Andrews TX. He was only 28.
Natalie had maybe 22h on this aircraft but was flying a complete survey on an identical plane above the rainforest of Costa Rica
Agreed. She flew that model all over the content.
I knew Natalie from my time working in Antarctica and followed her on facebook and instagram. I don't know where all the people in the comments are getting the influencer crap from, but she was definitely not one. I found her very down to earth and competent. Her crash happened as I was half way through my flying training and it was a shock to see someone with so many hours could have such a bad accident. Very sad to see such a bubbly and adventurous person is gone, the only positive for me is I am much more diligent about checklists and safety in general. I hope everyone can learn from this and take away something positive
The 2 KABLAMMO shirts I ordered came in, have been washed, I will be wearing one tomorrow for a dental appointment. Keep up the good reporting.
Your problem with chicks are over, too.
@@sludge8506too funny… I suspect he’s waiting to use #2 for his colonoscopy next month!
Please don't do anything crazy while wearing it. Juan's channel is not as strong as Matt Carriker's.
@@ronjones-6977 Or Dan Gryder’s.
Juan is such a judicious gentleman that never will add unsubstantiated drama to an informational video... too bad the rest of "media" won't follow suit.
It should be a requisite to study and employ Juan's style.
RIP and social media pilot...
I love the humility you pilots display the chat in sharing your errors and experiences during flying .
We are human beings. We make mistakes like everyone else only our mistakes can cost us and others life.
We have to check our egos at the curb. This is a very humbling occupation indeed. Establishing a dialogue and admitting our shortcomings is vital.
Thanks for the kind comment!
Same thing happened to me in a rental 172 back about 2002. I missed that on the checklist and it's common for the previous pilot to have trimmed almost all the way up in a 172. When I rotated, it seemed like the airplane shot literally straight up!! Although I'm sure it didn't, just seemed like it. The stall horn was screaming like an Irish banshee. I used all my might to push the nose down and I doubt if anyone ever rotated a trim wheel as fast as I did that day! Something helpful was the fact that this particular 172 had leading edge STOL mods done on the wings. Had it been without those, I might not be typing this right now.
Happens when one is practicing engine outs. Full nose up trim gives you the optimal 65knot glide speed. Recovery is interesting at full throttle.
I saw this woman fueling up and taxiing to departure but left the airport literally minutes before taking off. In so many ways It aggravates me that I was so close to being able to provide a detailed eyewitness account ( I’m talking less than 5 minutes ). At the same time perhaps I was spared to having to see this horrific event . Nonetheless this was very tragic. Her photography was beautiful and so was she, she seemed to have a great soul and a different than the average social media influencer pilot type that we all
Know and dislike so much .
Spent years flying these thing, and although a user friendly aircraft, they did like most aeroplanes, have some idiosyncrasies you needed to be aware of. The trim indicator is notoriously difficult to read. As part of my pre take off actions I always wound the manual trim all the way forward, and then back between 4-1 turns depending on whether it was just me on board (4turns) or anywhere in between depending on the load. Also it’s possible that the trim may have been wound full aft during the previous landing flare. Sadly she may not have picked up on this prior to the next departure?
I witnessed this on my way to work. Submitted a report to local police as well as a report to the NTSB. Never heard back from anyone except for a brief thank you email reply from ntsb staff. The reports I've heard are inaccurate, at least the parts I saw, but I guess it doesn't matter since they never bothered to reach out to hear what other witnesses had to say. At first I heard people talking about it doing loops, but no, I saw no loops. Was too low and not fast enough for that.
It has been very difficult for me to get the images out of my mind. Kept replaying in my head over and over for weeks. Poor girl. :(
I was driving down I-87 (south bound) and it was beautiful sunny morning. Suddenly, I saw the plane appear at my 1-2 o'clock position, maybe half mile or a little more ahead of me when it first appeared, and it shot up into the air in a very steep climb. The plane and myself were both heading south and it went ahead of me. It was almost parallel to the highway but would eventually have crossed it eventually had it kept going straight. The sun was glistening off the plane. It looked very clean and shiny. It sparkled in the sunlight. Just before it reached the top of the climb, it did a barrel roll to the left and in that maneuver, turned maybe 80-90 degrees to it's left. It rolled quickly. Not a slow roll. That's the first turn to the left that you see on the flight map. As it leveled out, it was crossing over I-87 and the nose kept going up and the pilot would almost immediately push it back down but it kept going up and down several times. Three times I think. Best way I can describe it was like a small roller coaster with little up and down movements. I thought that the pilot was having trouble leveling out. As that was happening, I could see that it was losing speed. I lost sight of it as I passed some trees while going down the highway. Shortly after, I saw the black smoke off to the left and all I could do was carry on with the rest of the traffic. Many of us must have seen the same thing. There were a lot of cars in 3 lanes of traffic, not to mention the three lanes coming from the other way.
My initial thought was that someone was showing off with the steep climb and low altitude barrel roll. Looked pretty cool before it became apparent that something was wrong. Afterwards, I honestly thought that someone had stolen the plane because it seemed like they didn't know how to fly after the barrel roll. I felt like a turd once I learned that the woman was struggling to survive in those last few moments. :(
The propellers on both engines were spinning faster than I could see, so it wasn't lack of thrust/power. There was no smoke or signs of a problem mechanically, at least that I could see externally. I couldn't hear it because I had my windows up and probably had music playing. Like I said, the plane was very clean looking. It sparkled in the sun. Was beautiful, really.
All I can do is pray for her and her loved ones. :(
Good for you reporting to the NTSB. They may get back to you. These investigations take a long time. You can look for my post for a better understanding of what may have happened. Just my "Speculation" as a professional airline pilot.
@@spencerrobinson5385 Thank you. I don't know how to find your post.
@@Liars-Bane Here it is, but should be near the top of comments......
@spencerrobinson5385
1 day ago (edited)
I love the content this channel brings but I have to speak up as a professional airline pilot of 36 years and roughly 23,000 hours. (Former military pilot and rotary wing as well). The NTSB has not put out a final report and I am surprised that Juan would "suggest" that this accident was, or may have been caused by not following the checklist - and reading the thread many have grabbed onto this idea when "None of us" actually know the cause yet, not even the NTSB. As many who have flown this type of aircraft have stated in this thread, they doubt the trim would be in the full aft position from the previous landing. Those that have flown this aircraft also point out that the aircraft has a history of trim indication and other problems, including runaways. If I were to "speculate", and that is all it is, had the trim been in the full aft position at take-off, the crash would have happened right over the runway, or at least on the airport property shortly after lift-off. The fact that the aircraft appeared to level off at roughly 200', suggests to me that that is where the problem first began, likely with the first input of trim after take-off as usually happens when the pilot can first feel the plane and fine tune the trim for the actual weight and balance of the aircraft. With that first input of trim if the contactor inside the switch stuck it would continue to run away. At that point where the aircraft was still close to normal trim and aerodynamic forces she was able to physically have enough strength to push the control column forward to level off and fight the runaway trim. But as the trim system continued to run aft it would have been impossible for most pilots, (men included), to fight the increasing aerodynamic forces. Hence the aircraft started a steep climb, and losing speed. With the loss of speed and the engines at high power, and the "Thrust line" being right of center on both these engines for a Navajo, (correct me if I am wrong for this AC), the lift for the wings would be shifted to the right of both engines. This would cause the barrel rolling to the left with the lowering speed.
The trim is checked at least two or three times prior to take-off, and should have been looked at during the walk-around for this type and size of aircraft. I highly doubt she would have missed the trim 3 times, and from what I have heard about Natalie, she sounded like a professional pilot, not a "Hop in and let's go type". And with only 22 hours on this aircraft, and flying it single pilot, I'd bet she was checking things more than once. And from what I have seen flying with female pilots, they tend to be more cautious than many of us male pilots. Hopefully the NTSB will be able to find the cause for this accident, but for this size of aircraft and no FDR, (Flight Data Recorder), we may never know for sure what happened.
Now for those and their speculations and comments about female pilots and the number of crashes here on CZcams, think "algorithms", where CZcams pushes certain videos and subjects to the top. I have no idea what the stats are, but I know some awesome female pilots. Heck, just look at the SouthWest 737 that had the engine blow up last year, with shrapnel from that engine piercing the cabin and also causing an explosive decompression. Two major startling unrelated failures at the same time. And it was an amazing female Captain that saved the day on that flight. Now I want to hear her story!
@@spencerrobinson5385 Thank you! That was a very interesting read. I pray that the truth is revealed.
@@Liars-Bane Me too. Natalie deserves to have her name cleared if this was a runaway trim, which I and many others here believe.
I had a runaway trip on the MD80 and we looped (wings broke off) ........ it was a full motion simulator when i was first hired but I remember it all my career ...... RIP dear one.
One of things I do in my after landing checks after stopping on the taxiway is resetting the trim to take off. I of course check it again prior to the next departure but one thing I find useful during the preflight inspection is looking at the trim tab(s) so see they are in the right place corresponding to the setting in the cockpit. Very sad accident, young woman was obviously excited and enthusiastic about flying as a career and lifestyle, terrible ending to a young life.
Same.
If the trim tab is the culprit and as another commenter posted (acirinelli) where they had an indicator that was not showing the proper take off trim, I had this same experience.
I train at a Part 141 school and we fly the traditional Cessna 172 S. Within our fleet we have two 172's that are G-1000 equipped and since I began my instrument training I have elected to fly solely on the G-1000.
My custom when I shut down the aircraft and "put her to bed" if you will, is to always leave the plane in the correct configuration as it should be for the next pilot that will be using it. I even make sure the manual has the front cover showing, anyway, I also always make sure the trim tab is set for take off manually.
I noticed that every time I flew this particular model that during my preflight the trim was always around 15-20 degrees nose high. Thinking that someone was just lazy and decided not to put it back where it should be I corrected the issue and went about the rest of my inspection. After about my third training flight with my instructor we had some cross wind on take off and it was a little more difficult to get airborne than it should have been. My instructor makes the remark that "no wonder, you don't have the trim set for take off".
I replied, BS, it was set according to the manual. He then told me that this particular model had the trim tab position adjusted and it was not correct on the indicator.
I thought to myself, they might need to have that tid bit of information placarded and listed in the manual in the preflight section. I wanted to tell him that I do not communicate telepathically and how else was I supposed to know the correct take off setting if it isn't listed someplace.?.?
I say all this to warn others. If something seems off inquire about it. Another aviation tragedy and loss of a human being. God Bless this young lady and her family.
Be vigilant y'all and fly safe skies to all.
I am wondering if she had stuck electric trim ( runaway trim ) during rotation. You can have trim tab set at approximate trim setting for take off but during rotation may notice a little heavier elevator than you want to deal with so to counter this you just nudge the electric trim button back a bit or two and at this point the trim could have stuck causing this sad incident. I was never comfortable with using electric trim and just manually trimmed the aircraft I flew( especially during takeoff and landings ). Had a friend in a Beech Baron who about lost it because of runaway trim and other friends who had problems with sticking trim.
As always good job juan, for enlightening us on these issues regarding these crashes so tragic
And doing so in such factual yet highly thoughtful and compassionate manner as always, it's really the chief reason why JB deserves that Ed. R. Murrow award for exemplary journalism.
Her arctic photography is amazing. what a brave woman. Rip.and condolences to family and friends.
A few weeks ago I engaged in a discussion with a gentleman who thought that it would be impossible for an out of trim elevator to overpower the pilot's muscle strength. His reasoning was that the trim tab being a fraction of the size of the elevator, there should be ample authority of the elevator over the trim tab. Of course he didn't realize that the pilot isn't fighting the trim tab itself, but rather the forces generated _at the elevator_ by the trim tab. Accidents resulting from misadjusted trim, as the one in the video seems to be the case, remind us in the saddest way that yes, in most airplanes the elevator trim can overpower the pilot's physical strength.
Side note: Trim should NEVER be used excessively on landing, EVER! There have been many accidents before where Pilots used excessive Nose up trim and then they go-around and it seldom ends well.
Checklist adherence and physical positive check of Checklist items is essential to safe flight.
However, since the investigation is not completed and hence Trim runaway has not been ruled out, it’s prudent to not jump to conclusions.
Juan, I was waiting for this one. It's my local airport.
1200 hrs+ of survey in a PA-31 310R, here- yep, very heavy controls at low speeds.
My ex’s dad was a pilot. He used to fly coke out of Bimini in the 80s. I never saw him fly without an ice cold six pack of Michelob next to him. He was a crazy guy but a skilled pilot. Not big on “checklists” - more of a seat-of-the-pants type. I NEVER felt unsafe flying with him except for a couple times. He’s no longer with us - his liver went bad. Rest in Peace Al.
You had an ex dad? How’d that happen?
Be diligent about your Checklist every time.
I am not a pilot.
Just fascinated viewing aviation content videos.
I had that happen to me in an Aztec. Had to hold forward control around the pattern and come back and land.
Navajo trim indicators are notoriously unreliable, they tend to slip out of alignment with the setting mark. We used to ignore them and trim for take-off by going full down and three turns back. The electric trim was usually disabled for take-off to prevent a runaway, we had a couple of those and once bitten, twice shy. These were on well maintained aircraft!
How would you be able to say that the aircraft was fully trimmed nose up versus a runaway trim failure?
Does that turtle have a turtle shell cannon on its turtle shell?!?!
@@jlo7770 indeed it does
The nice thing about the 707, was if you got a runaway trim, you could block the trim wheel with your leg. In 4000 hours, I saw this performed twice in an actual runaway. Not sure how Piper works.
I can say I had a few incidences of taking off with the plane trim up instead of neutral trim. Talking to a small circle of pilot friends, they also had similar experience. This is not to criticize anyone but it could happen to anyone of us flying GA airplanes when they don't autotrim like the jetliners.
You have to put your eyeballs on the trim setting and fuel selector before TO, throw in an extra free controls check while your at it.
Agreed! I always touch and look.
I have flown a few evaluation flights with young aviators with about the same hours and experience of this young pilot. I am finding that due to limited strength these pilots tend to continue using trim "even" in the flare because they don't have the physical strength to flair without assistance. Its a "case by case" scenario of individual pilots. Correctly using trim and knowing when to discontinue the use of trim and "why" i.e. go-around, go-around engine failure, after landing and shut down check list discipline can contribute to a successful flight. Godspeed.
Everyone is throwing her under the bus here. Yes, it's possible she just missed it on the checklist. However, it's also possible the trim indicator had malfunctioned and was indicating incorrectly, or the electric trim stuck on and she just wasn't strong enough to overpower it. There is a possibility this wasn't her fault and it's unfair to throw the cause on her at this point.
Agreed. To me, the position the trim was found in suggests a runaway because it wouldn't normally be that far nose up surely, even in landing config? I have a feeling a lot of the judgement, whether it's being done consciously or not, is because this pilot was female.
@@brandyballoon ...as well as young and inexperienced. I suspect she did use the checklist just as she was supposed to.
I'm betting on dodgy electricals or some other malfunction. They stopped making these 30 years ago, so this is a very old design and honestly, almost in the range of too old to fly/museum piece. (it looks like 1967? was the first year for these?). Very very old twins are something I'd not recommend to anyone seeing how often they seem to be appearing on this channel.
I don't see anyone throwing her under the bus. The trim was not set to full nose up when the takeoff started, so give over on the missed checklist stuff.
I’ll tell you why I think that trim was in the full up position. This comes from my 3 years as a Beech 1900 captain in the late 90’s, and what I’ve seen since in other planes. This plane is heavy on the controls. Despite what the narrative is today that men and women are exactly equal, they don’t have the same strength. I’ve seen many a female use excessive trim in the landing to help flare in an attempt to compensate for the lack of strength. Once in the ERJ-145 going into Houston, a very tiny female FO idled the thrust with her left hand then moved it to the ram horn yoke, with her right arm grabbed the yoke under so the joint at the elbow could help her flare. Left hand on the yoke, right arm hooked under the right side of the yoke. Holy cow. I’ll never forget that one. I’d put money on it that the only way this girl could flare that thing was to use a crap ton of nose up trim. This one time she forgot to put it back before take off. Very sad to see.
Wondering if full nose up trim would be something that could be spotted during preflight walk around?
Juan, thank you for this review. I sent you an email right after this tragic accident. Much appreciated. Joe
Seems odd that the flight appeared normal at first. Trim runaway possibly? This hits a little close as I work at ALB.
Why would trim full up on take off cause 2 barrel rolls?
I remember back in the early 90s, while flying a C402, I was departing after doing all pre takeoff checks - including the autopilot and electric trim check.
Something didn’t feel right during the takeoff roll. I did a quick check of the cockpit area and was shocked to see the electric trim running towards the full nose up position. I had not touched the electric trim switch since the checks before takeoff.
I chose to abort the takeoff.
I can only imagine what might have happened had I not had that sixth sense that something was amiss…
I work for a large company flying PA-31s where the trim indicator does not indicate the trim position while stationary. What I do is visually check to make sure the trim tab is about 1.5 inches higher than the elevator which is set for the take-off position. I am not sure if it was a false indication with the cockpit indicator, but this may have been the problem prior to her taking off with the full-up trim tab.
Juan, if it was set full nose up before takeoff, how did she remain at 2 to 3 hundred feet prior to the end of the runway and then pitch up abruptly? That almost makes it sound like a runaway trim during climb out. If it was the full nose up on takeoff, she should’ve rotated right up into stall and hammer headed over. This sounds like a runaway AFTER takeoff.
Speed.
Arms tired? Left hand alone not enough when right is fumbling with trim wheel? Or left slipped while right is fumbling with trim wheel?
Yes, I know it has electric trim, but I might reach for the real thing in that situation if a problem with the electric is suspected, or actually occurred.
@@firstielasty1162 Handling a runaway trim wheel can be a huge problem. I have actually used my knee against the yoke while a found the circuit breaker.
@@6milesupI've been known to pull the breaker pre takeoff. 🤔
If you look at all the posts here about trim, you will realize that you've made a very unwelcome reality based comment. Runaway trim does not cause barrel rolls.
Flying a Saratoga that i was not familiar with caused me an issue. I was used to manual trim. This aircraft had electric yoke trim. On run up, i know i glanced at position on checlist. It must have not registered in my mind? Halkway down a 4200ft runway, the aircraft was telling me IT WANTS TO FLY!! With only 1000ft left i hit nose up trim button. I was thrust into the air, quickly
I'm thinking it might be a good idea to set the trim for takeoff prior to the walk around preflight check to confirm the trim tab position matches the indicator. Trim tab is so small but such an important control surface.
I fly a PA 28-181, I know not the same but I usually land with quite a bit of trim forward, needed when landing with full flaps. It just seems odd the trim was all the way back not "mostly" back. My guess would be she trimmed back after takeoff and the trim motor got stuck on. Wouldn't be the first crash caused by electric trim getting stuck. I'm adding that to my checklist! Not just check trim, but also verify the actuator works in both directions.
Magnetos have a recommended "inspect/repair/replace" schedule, right? Are you aware of any defined "service life" for something like a TRIM SWITCH? What about in a Part 141 or military environment? Seems a critical safety component should be replaced before it is known to be BAD.
@@chetmyers7041 No idea. Not an A+P, but I would hope this would be part of regular 100h or annual inspections.
Years ago I got to fly with a friend in his Super Chieftain. I was in the right seat, he asked me if I wanted to fly it for a while. Coming from a Piper Warrior, I was not used to such heavy controls. I cannot imagine any kind of trim control issues, and trying to wrestle that plane around.
What the heck is a super chieftain
@@pauldoucette1432 Top of the line PA-31 Navajo, as I recall it was a longer version then the standard plane. That is what my friend called his, he owned a Piper aircraft franchise in the early '70s, and that is what he called it. Only got to fly in it once, and then it was sold soon afterwards to some corporation.
This happened near me. Forgetting to check the trim wasn't what I was hoping to hear.
We don't know where the trim wheel was at start of takeoff roll. Were you watching the trim wheel? Can you state with certainty that there was no failure of AP or electrical short which cause the trim motor to activate?
@@chetmyers7041 Were you?..It seems like you know the answer but the OP is vilified because he doesn't either?
The seemingly normal takeoff then, levelling off and 200', then a sudden climb, then levelling off, then climbing and left rolls might suggest a runaway trim and she might have tried to hold on to the yoke with her left hand while trying to manually roll the Trim Wheel with her right hand. Who knows. With a fire like that, likely will never know.
the trim must have gotten stuck somehow, pretty sure with 1800 hours she knew to look out for the trim settings. most likely not her fault
Years ago, I took the written test for NFO training. Along with that you had to watch a video called "pressure point" in which OCS was depicted. One scene showed a uniform inspection where grass was found on someone's low quarters. The D.I. starts to yell: "Attention to detail, attention to detail!"
Attention to detail matters. In this case the lack thereof was fatal.
Attention to Detail was preached and crammed down our throats in Basic training AF 1993. Since, it has saved my ass in all facets of life over the years. Agree 100%
Heard and saw it happen. Live not far from the airport for 32 years. I've seen and heard a lot of aircraft and this was by far the LOUDEST we've ever heard as she was coming down. Heard the plane go through the trees then saw the fireball.
I’m just a PPL, but even in the Robin DR400 that I fly, the elevator trim check occurs on 3 separate occasions in the run up and departure check-list, plus another in the preflight where the full range of movement is confirmed before returning it to the take off range on the indicator.
I did experiment on a check ride with an instructor what would happen at the extreme ends of the trim settings, and the control forces required to overcome this. We were towards the forward end of CoG (no passengers in the back and only 1/2 main tank - none in the reserve) and even with full forward stick I could not get to the end of the trim setting whilst maintaining level flight (at 5000ft AGL).
It was a good lesson in making sure the trim is set before departure (and ensuring the S-Tek30 autopilot with altitude hold is switched off!)
My guess is the following:
Some checklists contain the activation of the AP on ground during the run-up for test reasons. And after test AP OFF again.
But during this test, the AP changes the trim drastically!
And if you forget to reset the trim, something like this can happen easily!
This pilot had an incredible bio for her age, look her up, this wasn’t some influencer. She was already in Canadian news articles
It was NEVER said she was an "influencer".
I wonder how men young men with similar bios were in the news?
Fighting against trim can be brutal. Sad stuff.
Hello sir. Thanks for the information. I lost my cousin last week in BQN accident. Can you do a video about this accident please. Cessna 402, N4167G. Thank you. Rest in peace, Natalie and Wilfredo.😢
Thank you for your detailed reporting.
You are still the best for honesty!
It looks like it was a trim runaway and not a takeoff with full nose up trim.
If she had taken off with full nose up trim it wouldn't have leveled off at 200ft.
Isn't it possible she had a runaway trim?
Preparing ahead of time to know where that circuit breaker is probably one of the least practiced and least demonstrated emergency procedures....
I remember that these aircraft (particularly the PA31-350 variant) are quite nose heavy in the flare. It can assist a pilot to blip the trimmer back in the flare to alleviate the elevator pull required. It's not a technique that is recommended of course, but it does result in a large nose-up trim setting after landing.
I remember being checked out in a Musketeer. The CFI told me I had to roll in full up trim in the flare, or risk wheelbarrowing, because the stabilator had so little authority at landing speed. I really liked that plane, but was always uncomfortable landing it, and go-arounds were no fun at all.
They are nose heavy in the flare if you trimmed them a bit nose down at each addition of flap in the approach.
😢 i learned to fly at Purdue university. One of my instructor Jeremy sanborn and two students died when a Bonanza they were flying stalled due to the same mistake. They had landed and done a taxi and unfortunately skipped that line item on the checklist and crashed. The only fatal accident Purdue aviation has had in about 100 years of flying. This accident happened one day as I was about to go on a check ride and I didn’t go, and I must say I never tried to fly again. I wasn’t scared I just had a heavy heart.
Anyone who’s flown the Navajo knows that, unless you load the airplane near the aft CG with max gross weight, the controls are too heavy to manually operate. With only two pilots, fuel and no load, it is so nose heavy, you pretty much have to fly it with the trim. If it was trimmed nose up at take off, there is no way to push the controls forward without first trimming nose down, and there likely was no time to do this with the electric trim between lift off and a pitch up/runaway trim, situation. Even flying a level turn at standard rate, with no load in the back of the plane, it is almost impossible, without using trim. The controls are too heavy. Therefore, it is imperative, to have the trim in the takeoff position prior to lift off. It’s in the pre takeoff checklist for this reason. It is possible she had runaway trim prior to or just after takeoff, which could cause the plane to do an accelerated stall barrel roll. she likely could not physically overpower a full nose up trim situation.
This is so tragic. I’m very sorry for your loss. My prayers go out for the family, as I tragically lost my dad in the N182K Lear crash on approach to Groton New London airport. My dad is who trained me to fly a Navajo. As a charter pilot, I had the privilege of copiloting his airplane when the passengers asked for a safety pilot, and flew the Navajo during test flights after maintenance with no passengers. I was shocked by the physical effort necessary to fly it with no load. I had to learn to fly it with trim. To fly efficiently, my dad would have the passengers sit as far aft as possible, and put the heaviest passengers further back, to compensate for the heavy controls and the drag created by nose up trim necessary just to fly straight and level. When we did the weight and balance together, he always tried to load it as close to the aft CG limit as safely possible, while leaving a safety margin for unforeseen circumstances, like load shift, if a passenger happened to move aft during a flight. Rarely ever was the nose baggage compartment used, unless, the load could be counterbalanced with the wing compartments or shifting the load in the fuselage, could compensate for the already nose heavy condition. From the little time I had in this workhorse, it made a huge impression on me, to always have the CG perfectly balanced towards the aft CG, otherwise, trim was the only way to control the airplane. Barring a runaway trim incident, there wouldn’t be time for the electric trim to move forward far enough, after takeoff, before a loss of control incident. Even at landing, with a light load in the back and the CG loaded towards the forward CG limit, it wouldn’t require full nose up trim. That’s why this looks to me like a runaway trim incident. They’re very rare, but not impossible. “Trim-set to take off”, is right there in the pre takeoff checklist. Surely she did this step? Full nose up trim, at landing, and missed during shutdown on the ramp, I don’t know? We trained to center the trim for takeoff, prior to shutdown, in the Navajo, because it is so crucial to safe operations and it reduced the margins of human error. If you fly this plane, please develop that habit? It is above and beyond the checklist, but it could make the difference between safe operations and the alternative…this incident.
Good comment. I wondered about CG and pitch authority with a light load. The Senecas behave similarly, although the Navajo is probably even worse.
Remember, when the Alaska plane lost its jackscrew it also rolled over and inverted. Quite possible something ran away, not just electrical but equally possible mechanical.
I've flown the Navajo a fair bit. The controls are not too heavy to manually operate.
Juan. I n a light twin, with electric trim, is it possible to have runaway elevator trim?