The ending of messiah is amazing, the moments before it ended were the stuff that legends and myths are made of and it made the title of the book resonate hard.
I always took Dune and Dune: Messiah together as one single book. Taken in that context, the story goes from a triumphalist story with a cruel twist-ending sequel to a grand tragedy.
Is the ending to Dune not also kinda dark? The fremen believes him to be their saviour, but that due to that they have been brain washed over several decades to think so? Paul basically just takes advantages of the situation. :) But yaer the ending for Messiah is twisted. xD
My favorite Dune book. This is where Dune gets trippy and much more emotional. The imagery is insane. I remember that scene where the reverend mother is walking to Paul's throne, so epic. That palace is crazy
I don't think Paul was the ideal hero from the first book I think it was always in him that he'd became a dictatorial emperor, he was slowly becoming more cold and begins to see everyone that helped him get to power as just tools or animals rather than humans and equals, the second book only expanded on that
Paul was the long anticipated Kwisatz Haderach that the Bene Gesserit were trying to create for generations. Paul becomes the underdog when his Father’s house is wiped out by House Harkonnen. So his retribution against the Harkonnen aligns with the the Fremen’s desire to be rid of them also. Everyone loves an underdog. So, to me, Paul is an idea hero in those aspects, he’s literally perfect because his knowledge of the Bene Gesserit arts and the spice allows him to see what he needs to do. The only aspect that’s not ideal is that he’s human, that is is flaw. I think any human in his situation would become bitter and become a tyrant. If he hadn’t been a tyrant he would have been dead. The second book really illustrated what Herbert eluded to in Dune, I think. I went into Messiah knowing it was going to be a tragedy. I do love me a tragedy though. Lol. 😉
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize I love a tragedy too, but for most people these days it’s almost unthinkable. I feel most of the negative reaction to the end of Game of Thrones was simply because folks couldn’t handle a tragic ending. Yet George Martin cites Dune as a huge influence on his writing and John Snow, just like Paul, sacrifices everything for the greater good.
I totally agree! It’s nice to see others with this take. Like there are so many hints of it, especially after the scene in the tent. Like the fact that people were shocked by Messiah, is honestly surprising because by the end of the first book and what he does to his “soulmate” and Irulan (sorry not sorry, I love Irulan) I was like how is anyone surprised by Messiah? Gurney was already expressing disappointment, and Paul when Paul was upset about them losing equipment over the people dying. It’s going to be weird with dune 2 because they humanize Paul a lot more because if they didn’t general audiences, who haven’t read, the book would absolutely hate him. In the movie, they show him as humble and almost meek, and in the book, Paul was never that. I always thought Messiah was so interesting because we get to see the consequences.
Dune Messiah was my favourite when I read it. I loved how it showed the downside of victory. All because you're a great charismatic leader doesn't mean you're going to be an effective ruler.
When Stilgar found Paul after the incident i was heartbroken: "Oh... Usul... Usul...". Definitely one of my favorite sequels ever, the messiah was banished but Muad'Dib was able to become a man once again.
Just finished this book today, i loved it. In my mind, the “Stoneburner” scene was insane. I started Children fo Dune the same day. This book hooked me into the series.
I think what I loved with Dune Messiah was how different it was than Dune. I never thought I would see such a dark twist to the sequel and just a tragic event that occur with Paul. Thinking he might lead humanity to a better course, he couldn't stop the jihad that he foresaw and seeing that so many people have died under his rule. I enjoy reading this book only cause it tells people who missed the point of Dune that Paul was never someone you were suppose to look up to, he is a flawed and tragic character.
Paul didn't save anyone... y'all really don't understand this series... he was never idealistic, he foresaw the hero's path and it terrified him so he passed it onto his children
That’s true, he did pass it on to his children, but he did endeavour to save humanity by preventing “stagnation” as he called it. So while he was not the perfect hero that took the entire burden onto himself, he did make sacrifices for the sake of humanity. But you got me on calling him idealistic. That was the wrong word to use.
I loved It , the way Muad'dib's vision was described after he was blinded is amazing Paul getting more and more distant with every chapter is astonishing to me , he's imo a realistic example of what being a saviour figure with Powers can do to a person He did what he did because there was no other choice and every other potential event that wasn't his jihad would have been worse than what he did Imagine being in that position where you must become this distant tyrant who kills 60 billion souls because anything else would have ten times worse It's amazing
I think that was the whole purpose of this book. in interviews Frank Herbert was talking often that his books are showing us we should distrust goverment. he said " " Our government was founded on mistrust of government. We seem to have lost that mistrust of government." "Government is a shared illusion. When the myth dies the government disappears." In one of his interview he was asked what is the message in the books. He said, and I quote "dont trust leaders to always be right. I worked to create a leader in this book who would be atracttive, charismatic person, for all the good reasons, not for bad reasons. Then power comes to him. He makes decisions. Some of his decisions made for milions people dont work out to well."
You have to feel empathy for Paul. He couldn't escape from the possible futures. He could only choose the lesser evil. You just knew it couldn't end well for Paul and Chani. So many tragic characters in the Dune series. I really enjoyed the first book. It had to spend a lot of time world-building. However, the second book felt more personal with the inner monologuing. I liked the contrast. It's a short read, comparably, but I liked the intimate pace of it.
I feel like this ruined it for me. if paul cannot change the future then he actually has no power and the kwatch haderach doesnt mean anything. There was a specific time in Dune when he says that he never saw this is any of his visions and yet he does it... It's just so lame to make the plot that the future cannot be changed
Wow, amazing review, thanks so much !!! I just finished _Dune_ (...again) and am contemplating reading _Dune Messiah_ (...again) ...... but I seem to continue to gather more perspective on these books as the decades roll along. I really like your overview; it's extremely clear, and I don't think I ever thought of the thematic elements in the way that you so cogently (big word) lay them out.
Love your take! You made me appreciate it a lot more. Generally im disappointed in this book. I really dig the plot, character arcs and a different, darker vibe. My main problem with this book, or Herbert's writing in general is just that he doesn't focus on things that im really interested in. Some concepts in Dune and Dune Messiah are just mentioned, and i really wanted more from them. I will be reading Children of Dune though!
It was a tragedy. But Paul’s impact, even though it caused a jihad, Herbert claimed it saved humanity from genetic stagnation. What would have been the impact of the stagnation? I’m not sure, but he planted the thought that the jihad and Paul’s outcome of being a better outcome. Soooo…I guess the tragedy was a win? Lol. 🤷🏻♀️
I really liked "Dune Messiah". I loved that "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" formed a complete tragedy. I've spent years telling people to just disregard everything written after "Dune Messiah". "Children of Dune" was awful, and "Worm-God of Dune" was unreadable.
Awesome review. Enjoyed it a lot. I would rate Messiah 4/5. It’s deep and certainly worth a reread. I think FH was very brave though in the turns he took on Paul, was the right thing to do to keep it interesting. Did people expect him to be the Good protagonist throughout the whole series? Anyway, feels like Messiah is underrated.
Hello! New viewer here :) yea I took this whole jihad situation in two ways: 1) Paul mentions plenty of times in the 1st book about race conciousness and how the universe is about to undergo a change, a serious turmoil of sort because of how stagnated the genes are & all of humanity's conciousness (race conciousness) is forcing his hand in the matter to commit to this holy war 2) the Fremen's rage induced madness is too much to tame after their messiah took the throne their fever pitch in terms of fanaticism has become tenfold & it didnt matter whether Paul lived or died or tell them to stop, he knows its gonna happen either way.
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Messiah was good but it does feel like an epilogue than it does a sequel. I remember it having the worst character in the series, Bijaz.. Bijizz or whatever, I hated him everytime he rhymed lol and I was happy when he died. Chani's death was like a super gut punch and that one felt like Padme's death from Revenge of the Sith...the twins being born also felt like Revenge of the Sith aswell, hmm
@@APOKOLYPES Herbert said it was human race consciousness. In regards to race, he always refers to the human race. He thought that human race consciousness was in the DNA; like when memories of past ancestors are recovered in the spice agony, and like in the ghola, Hayt.
Objectively its exactly on target. But my (mistaken?) understanding of the original was that the BG wanted a Messiah and the Fremen needed one, so Paul gave them one, somewhat sincerely but largely cynically and out of necessity. But the inference I drew is that God was involved in turning their man-made messiah against them, loosing an "Antichrist" upon them for their impertinence in trying to make and control a God. He was the one feeding Paul his visions from a "higher order dimension" as it says in the appendices.
Ooooooo…I’ve never read the appendices but this is a very Interesting twist to ponder. 🤔 That by trying to control their God he became the “Antichrist”. I think I’m going to have to wade through those appendices. 🧐
Congrats on the summary!! He liberates the Fremen from the Emperor but he is not able to liberate them from themselves. Great pair of books just re-readed them after 20 years and i enjoyed them even more. I wanted to ask a question, don't you guys find Alia a little dumb for having been born with an adult intellect plus all the INT bonuses of the first book? Guess I will wait to read the 3rd book but that schocked me.
The plot is fine. It just felt a bit padded out with the conversations and monologue. To use an analogy, the first book was like the story of Caesar's conquest of Rome (armies battling it out across the land), whereas Messiah is the post-conquest story of Roman political intrigue and Caesar's assassination, with most of the text taken up with conversations between the senators as to how get rid of Caesar.
This sequel was needed to expose the real meaning of "Dune", and it's what makes the difference between Paul's arc and others "heroes" in pop culture. Before it's existance, some readers might worship Paul's character and his actions blindly,becoming another fundamentalist among his fedaykins. Saludos
A future tragedy is alluded to in Dune. That Paul forgoes one of the possible future outcomes because he cannot stomach what he would have to do. But it is always vague. I knew going in, that Messiah would be a tragedy and I felt it had that tone from the start. Thank you for watching.
Ooooooo…your favourite? You’re the first person to tell me it was their favourite. That’s great! Have you read on in the series? I’m on Children of Dune and I’m liking it so far.
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Children of Dune is really cool too. More actionpacked than the other, but Dune Messiah is more tragic and passionate for me personally!
I became obsessed with this franchise as a kid. Funny enough I discovered from an old MS-DOS computer game about Dune... Anyways I rabidly read the entire franchise, and can decisively say that Book 1 is the best by a long shot. Can barely even remember the events of the rest of the books. The only one that sticks out to me is Book 4: God Emperor.
I really loved Messiah, Im half through Children of Dune and this book really needs Messiah to exist in terms of how Arrakis has been evolving and the universe with it
I just finished Messiah on Audiobook and I feel like I missed a lot of detail... I couldn't tell if Paul had yet to stop the Jihad or if it had happened in the past, or that Paul was seeing what the Jihad had wrought on the universe in his prescience. I did "read" it as an audiobook but I feel like I'll be able to digest it better in print
I love audio books, but I can struggle with them. My mind is a multi tasked and can wander. I find that often if there are a lot of characters or complex names and terms that I can become lost and then it’s very difficult to understand the meaning behind events. While reading I can stop and reread a section or go back to confirm if the characters are who I thought they were. I’ve listened to an audio book, read a break down of the story and characters, and then listened to the audio book again with great success. There are times that one can’t take the time to read it and listening to the audio book makes more sense. In Messiah, the Jihad had already begun and isn’t over. It’s on going. But Paul is also seeing the results of it. Thank you for watching.
Pauls Journey is what inspired George Lucas to Create Darth Vader, especially Episode 3, the birth of the twins, lead character being disabled by rivals
Was "Dune" a big seller when it first came out? Maybe Frank Herbert felt like Paul after the first book came out. Maybe he felt oppressed by his own success, and that's what came through in this second book in the Dune Universe.
But u dont get to choose nurture just like nature ..you dont choose your parents or country place u born into ..u dont really choose atleast some of it what happens to you and where u are you where u were
This book was so good, it caught me off guard at first because it is a story of a downfall of a hero, which I really liked as not a lot of people take that approach
I super don’t agree that Dune messiah doesn’t live up to Dune, rather it just doesn’t go the direction that most stories would want to with Paul. Messiah isn’t a retcon or realistically a dramatic shift Paul stops caring about the Harkonnens as early as the scene in the tent. As soon as he gains the broader context of the coming Jihad and his lineage he realizes the relativity of the situation. Paul and Jessica outright manipulate the Fremen in the first book and it’s not hidden. Many times Paul remarks how Stilgar is too superstitious and dumb. Jessica mostly wings her way through convincing the fremen she’s special. Even Leto was okay with the idea of exploiting the Fremen. I can see how people missed it which just makes a re-read of the book all that much more interesting, but realistically Dune is just a great case study for Franks point. You’d like to think you wouldn’t get caught up on the wrong side, but here you are with your assumptions about Paul when it’s way too late.
In the mini-series, the come-uppance that Paul's enemies get...in a *very* short period of time... is reminiscent of the baptism/revenge scenes in the first Godfather film... YP
"A fremen dies when they're too long away from the desert" (page 190) Paul is a fremen, it's in his eyes. The empire Paul and the fremen create becomes the downfall of the fremen and the desert, they have the water but they're drowning in it. Paul is drowning in the universe that he's built, it's unstoppable, and there is no way, no matter how powerful you are, to stop it. It was a great book 🌴 I apologize if the extract is a bit different from the original, my book is in spanish and that's just my translation.
I enjoyed Dune Messiah much more than Dune. It took me ONE YEAR to read Dune. I found it to be an incredibly difficult read, and it actually somehow annoyed me. On the other hand, I read Dune Messiah in just two weeks and really loved it. I'm here for philosophical and nihilistic Paul. The confrontation between Paul and The Guild Navigator was amazing. The chapter where the Face Dancer visits Farok, and we hear his version of the Jihad, the experience of seeing seas/oceans for the first time (while killing the inhabitants of that world) was just so beautifully written. I also loved the confrontation between Irulan and The Reverend Mother, where Irulan is told she's very expendable. Overall, Dune Messiah is a great improvement over Dune.
I agree. I suppose he was ideal in the sense that he was in the right place at the right time, and was a person the Freemen could rally behind because he embraced their culture and he was the genetic anomaly the Bene Gesserit were trying to create to conquer everyone. But arguably he used all that to his advantage.
Oooo, that’s you favourite? That’s great. I am going to definitely read book 3 and I hope I read book 4 this year. I hope. I feel like Herbert’s writing is such stimulus overload, it’s like running a marathon. I read the first 2 books back to back and then I felt I needed a long break. Lol!
Spoiler I think? Be warned people who haven't read! I felt after reading through Messiah that the Gom Jabbar reflected Paul's life. He saw that he would create a universe where he longer wanted to live and that he would be miserable in the journey there but he persevered till the end. "A human would endure the pain and wait for the hunter to arrive helping the collective by killing him." And Paul truly endured.
I know that he loved Chani but I do think he was kinda cruel to his wife, like I get she was just a political thing but idk. I haven’t read far yet so idk
Paul understand ms the Bene Gesserit better than most because of Lady Jessica. He understands it better than Irulan even. And so he knows she can’t be trusted and in this Paul isn’t wrong. I thought he was rather kind to Irulan all things considered. Have you finished reading it? Have you changed your impressions of Irulan?
Too many redundant boring conversations in Messiah. It just drags on and on before any action takes place. The most interesting conversations were between the conspirators (who were disposed of too easily IMO). I imagine the movie will show more of the jihad to prevent it from being a total snoozefest.
I've recommended Dune, then warned people that each successive sequel gets worse and worse, until you get to his son's installments, which are not even workmanlike. Your analysis of Messiah shows me it was probably my immaturity and other failings that led me to dislike the sequels. Perhaps another try ... Hm.
Nothing is for everyone, and the style is very different from the first novel. But you definitely may feel differently about it now. How long ago did you read it all the first time?
Very familiar with Dune. Reddit countless times saw all the movies and all the series multiple times even the new one. But I don't remember finishing Messiah. Need to fosho
6:57 It's funny, I didn't dislike Paul, as I get how he got here, save his treatment of Irulan, but what I found ironic here is I thought the opposite. Aside from it being a little clunkier, I thought that this and Children of Dune bludgeoned you over the head more than the original. It felt like a book, starting off with a warning acted like the warning and got unnecessarily preachy. I don't dislike it per se but I prefer the miniseries Children of Dune to the two novels. While missing a few important things (audiobook version first is recommended by me) I felt more respect for the audiences intelligence, like the first Dune novel, and a better flow of dialogue. Also it was miles and away better than the Dune miniseries that gave birth to it. And the adult like kids on screen would have made me worried for the child actors so, glad they got made "teens," even if I would have especially preferred they and Irulan were flushed out better. The series lacks some important components to Alia as well. And she's my favorite character in the two books, so that was sad but I still feel it kept her essence and a well put together crash and burn. On nature vs nurture. While Montessori would say nurture, and she did prove all kids are capable of far more, no matter the genes or background, I believe it is a combination of genes, environment and choices. Our choices accumulate, like the steps of learning to speak or walk, whatever direction they take us, gets reinforced until it's practically unconscious. Being aware of that can help us slow choose another direction by accumulating little choices another way. This and many other theme in the book like Tyranny, the illusion of control etc. are already interesting to me and honestly when someone is surprised at the direction Paul went here, I gotta wonder how much they paid attention to the first book. Between him and Jessica, the signs were all there.
I agree, the signs were all there. I’ve never watch any of the adaptations for the dune series. I prefer to read first and then watch and I’ve only recently gotten into Dune. I’m on Children of Dune now.
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Check, when you finish reading Children of Dune, find the Syfy miniseries, it has James McAvoy, Susan sarandon and the Borg Queen. And possibly my favorite Chani on screen to date. Sorry for the spoilers, didn't realize you hadn't read it.
ive read dune and children of dune countless times over last 20-25 yrs two of my favorite books of all time, but never once mde it all way through dune messiah just found it so boring and ive tryed time and time again just to fill in the gap of the lore between the other 2 books that im missing
Nothing is for everyone, and the pacing of Messiah is slow in the middle. I'm glad to hear you got on well with Children of Dune. I can't wait to read that one.
Not a fan of the ending or of Paul in this book. Lacks confidence in ruling, does not try to stop or reform the jihad or care for his family. Basically a different person. Enjoyable read overall but different then Dune, completely.
That's the whole point of the book. Paul knew the jihad would be impossible to stop once it was set in motion so the rest of the book was his downward spiral and death by apathy.
If you're just going to look down at a script the whole time, just give us the essay. We can read faster than we can watch you read. Also: it's Muad'Dib, not Maud'Dib. It's hard to take someone seriously in a book analysis when they get the main character's title wrong.
Dune Messiah requires a second read after finishing the series. After reading the physical books I reread the series in audiobook format. I’ve been stuck relistening to the last 30 minutes of Messiah every night for a month… still learning new things each pass through. This series is master level work.
The ending of messiah is amazing, the moments before it ended were the stuff that legends and myths are made of and it made the title of the book resonate hard.
The ending was EPIC!! Loved it.
just finished myself last night and couldnt agree more. The last 60 pages are immaculate
I always took Dune and Dune: Messiah together as one single book. Taken in that context, the story goes from a triumphalist story with a cruel twist-ending sequel to a grand tragedy.
Such a tragedy, right? I love a good tragedy.
Is the ending to Dune not also kinda dark? The fremen believes him to be their saviour, but that due to that they have been brain washed over several decades to think so? Paul basically just takes advantages of the situation. :) But yaer the ending for Messiah is twisted. xD
I think of Dune: messiah as an epilogue to Dune
My favorite Dune book. This is where Dune gets trippy and much more emotional. The imagery is insane. I remember that scene where the reverend mother is walking to Paul's throne, so epic. That palace is crazy
Now that you mention that I remember that scene so well too, but I never thought of it as such, but you’re right.
I don't think Paul was the ideal hero from the first book I think it was always in him that he'd became a dictatorial emperor, he was slowly becoming more cold and begins to see everyone that helped him get to power as just tools or animals rather than humans and equals, the second book only expanded on that
exactly how i feel. the first book told you what paul was to become...
Paul was the long anticipated Kwisatz Haderach that the Bene Gesserit were trying to create for generations. Paul becomes the underdog when his Father’s house is wiped out by House Harkonnen. So his retribution against the Harkonnen aligns with the the Fremen’s desire to be rid of them also. Everyone loves an underdog. So, to me, Paul is an idea hero in those aspects, he’s literally perfect because his knowledge of the Bene Gesserit arts and the spice allows him to see what he needs to do. The only aspect that’s not ideal is that he’s human, that is is flaw. I think any human in his situation would become bitter and become a tyrant. If he hadn’t been a tyrant he would have been dead. The second book really illustrated what Herbert eluded to in Dune, I think. I went into Messiah knowing it was going to be a tragedy. I do love me a tragedy though. Lol. 😉
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize I love a tragedy too, but for most people these days it’s almost unthinkable. I feel most of the negative reaction to the end of Game of Thrones was simply because folks couldn’t handle a tragic ending. Yet George Martin cites Dune as a huge influence on his writing and John Snow, just like Paul, sacrifices everything for the greater good.
I totally agree! It’s nice to see others with this take. Like there are so many hints of it, especially after the scene in the tent. Like the fact that people were shocked by Messiah, is honestly surprising because by the end of the first book and what he does to his “soulmate” and Irulan (sorry not sorry, I love Irulan) I was like how is anyone surprised by Messiah? Gurney was already expressing disappointment, and Paul when Paul was upset about them losing equipment over the people dying.
It’s going to be weird with dune 2 because they humanize Paul a lot more because if they didn’t general audiences, who haven’t read, the book would absolutely hate him. In the movie, they show him as humble and almost meek, and in the book, Paul was never that. I always thought Messiah was so interesting because we get to see the consequences.
Dune Messiah was my favourite when I read it. I loved how it showed the downside of victory. All because you're a great charismatic leader doesn't mean you're going to be an effective ruler.
When Stilgar found Paul after the incident i was heartbroken: "Oh... Usul... Usul...".
Definitely one of my favorite sequels ever, the messiah was banished but Muad'Dib was able to become a man once again.
Sooooo good, right?
The ending of this book was so beautiful and poetic. I loved it.
I agree. So poetic
Just finished this book today, i loved it. In my mind, the “Stoneburner” scene was insane. I started Children fo Dune the same day. This book hooked me into the series.
I completely agree! That scene grabbed me by the nose hairs and pulled me in.
I think what I loved with Dune Messiah was how different it was than Dune. I never thought I would see such a dark twist to the sequel and just a tragic event that occur with Paul.
Thinking he might lead humanity to a better course, he couldn't stop the jihad that he foresaw and seeing that so many people have died under his rule.
I enjoy reading this book only cause it tells people who missed the point of Dune that Paul was never someone you were suppose to look up to, he is a flawed and tragic character.
I agree. I went I to Messiah expecting a tragedy. The flawed nature of all the characters is always a big draw for me.
Paul didn't save anyone... y'all really don't understand this series... he was never idealistic, he foresaw the hero's path and it terrified him so he passed it onto his children
That’s true, he did pass it on to his children, but he did endeavour to save humanity by preventing “stagnation” as he called it. So while he was not the perfect hero that took the entire burden onto himself, he did make sacrifices for the sake of humanity. But you got me on calling him idealistic. That was the wrong word to use.
Paul is like the successful guy at the office that people try to sabotage to get ahead.
I loved It , the way Muad'dib's vision was described after he was blinded is amazing
Paul getting more and more distant with every chapter is astonishing to me , he's imo a realistic example of what being a saviour figure with Powers can do to a person
He did what he did because there was no other choice and every other potential event that wasn't his jihad would have been worse than what he did
Imagine being in that position where you must become this distant tyrant who kills 60 billion souls because anything else would have ten times worse
It's amazing
I think that was the whole purpose of this book. in interviews Frank Herbert was talking often that his books are showing us we should distrust goverment. he said " " Our government was founded on mistrust of government. We seem to have lost that mistrust of government." "Government is a shared illusion. When the myth dies the government disappears." In one of his interview he was asked what is the message in the books. He said, and I quote "dont trust leaders to always be right. I worked to create a leader in this book who would be atracttive, charismatic person, for all the good reasons, not for bad reasons. Then power comes to him. He makes decisions. Some of his decisions made for milions people dont work out to well."
You have to feel empathy for Paul. He couldn't escape from the possible futures. He could only choose the lesser evil. You just knew it couldn't end well for Paul and Chani. So many tragic characters in the Dune series.
I really enjoyed the first book. It had to spend a lot of time world-building. However, the second book felt more personal with the inner monologuing. I liked the contrast.
It's a short read, comparably, but I liked the intimate pace of it.
I agree.
I feel like this ruined it for me. if paul cannot change the future then he actually has no power and the kwatch haderach doesnt mean anything. There was a specific time in Dune when he says that he never saw this is any of his visions and yet he does it... It's just so lame to make the plot that the future cannot be changed
I loved it although the best one in the series, imo, is the GEOD.
Ooooooo…I’ve heard that from others as well. I can’t wait to get there.
Wow, amazing review, thanks so much !!! I just finished _Dune_ (...again) and am contemplating reading _Dune Messiah_ (...again) ...... but I seem to continue to gather more perspective on these books as the decades roll along. I really like your overview; it's extremely clear, and I don't think I ever thought of the thematic elements in the way that you so cogently (big word) lay them out.
Thank you for watching. I really want to reread Dune and Messiah, but I also want to read on, and read everything else. So many books, so little time.
Currently reading and loving this sequel! Great review. 🙂
That's awesome! Thank you for watching.
Love your take! You made me appreciate it a lot more. Generally im disappointed in this book. I really dig the plot, character arcs and a different, darker vibe. My main problem with this book, or Herbert's writing in general is just that he doesn't focus on things that im really interested in. Some concepts in Dune and Dune Messiah are just mentioned, and i really wanted more from them. I will be reading Children of Dune though!
Here’s hoping you connect with book 3 more. I have heard it said that Herbert’s writing does evolve through the series.
If "Power can change a person" is a whole ass book
I wholeheartedly loved Dune Messiah!, is my favorite of all the saga and I really hope that this book goes to the cinema... is so emotional. 🤧🤧
Oh my. You fleshed out the themes in this novel incredibly well. So good. I love this book. I think it's brilliant. Your review does it justice.
Thank you so much!
Man, the ending was so depressing and nihilistic, it struck me to my core.
It was a tragedy. But Paul’s impact, even though it caused a jihad, Herbert claimed it saved humanity from genetic stagnation. What would have been the impact of the stagnation? I’m not sure, but he planted the thought that the jihad and Paul’s outcome of being a better outcome. Soooo…I guess the tragedy was a win? Lol. 🤷🏻♀️
Thanks for making this. I was a little confused when I started Messiah and found a completely different tone.
Yeah. It’s so different it can give a reader whiplash. Lol.
I thought the book was amazing. I loved all of it. I do not understand the criticism that so many people throw at it.
It is very different in tone but I saw it coming from hints in book 1.
I really liked "Dune Messiah". I loved that "Dune" and "Dune Messiah" formed a complete tragedy. I've spent years telling people to just disregard everything written after "Dune Messiah". "Children of Dune" was awful, and "Worm-God of Dune" was unreadable.
My OCD hurts, too! Great review! I couldn't get through Dune Messiah when I tried it in my teens but now at 54 it makes a lot more sense.
Perseverance!! Lol! I couldn’t imagine making it through Messiah as a teenager myself. Thanks for watching.
Awesome review. Enjoyed it a lot. I would rate Messiah 4/5. It’s deep and certainly worth a reread. I think FH was very brave though in the turns he took on Paul, was the right thing to do to keep it interesting. Did people expect him to be the Good protagonist throughout the whole series? Anyway, feels like Messiah is underrated.
Hello! New viewer here :) yea I took this whole jihad situation in two ways: 1) Paul mentions plenty of times in the 1st book about race conciousness and how the universe is about to undergo a change, a serious turmoil of sort because of how stagnated the genes are & all of humanity's conciousness (race conciousness) is forcing his hand in the matter to commit to this holy war
2) the Fremen's rage induced madness is too much to tame after their messiah took the throne their fever pitch in terms of fanaticism has become tenfold & it didnt matter whether Paul lived or died or tell them to stop, he knows its gonna happen either way.
Hello, Damian! Yes, I also remember that being the reasons behind the jihad. Did you enjoy Messiah when you read it?
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Messiah was good but it does feel like an epilogue than it does a sequel. I remember it having the worst character in the series, Bijaz.. Bijizz or whatever, I hated him everytime he rhymed lol and I was happy when he died. Chani's death was like a super gut punch and that one felt like Padme's death from Revenge of the Sith...the twins being born also felt like Revenge of the Sith aswell, hmm
@@damianrives563 Oh yeah. George Lucas was very inspired by Dune when he went about creating Star Wars.
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Dune series doesn't care about race at all... yall really projecting
@@APOKOLYPES Herbert said it was human race consciousness. In regards to race, he always refers to the human race. He thought that human race consciousness was in the DNA; like when memories of past ancestors are recovered in the spice agony, and like in the ghola, Hayt.
Probably one of my favorite novels. I love how it enthralled me and forced me to reevaluate my own preconceptions.
I am so glad that someone else loved this sequel as much as I did for the SAME REASONS.
Have you read on in the series?
Objectively its exactly on target. But my (mistaken?) understanding of the original was that the BG wanted a Messiah and the Fremen needed one, so Paul gave them one, somewhat sincerely but largely cynically and out of necessity. But the inference I drew is that God was involved in turning their man-made messiah against them, loosing an "Antichrist" upon them for their impertinence in trying to make and control a God. He was the one feeding Paul his visions from a "higher order dimension" as it says in the appendices.
Ooooooo…I’ve never read the appendices but this is a very Interesting twist to ponder. 🤔 That by trying to control their God he became the “Antichrist”. I think I’m going to have to wade through those appendices. 🧐
THE BABIES SCENE!!!! YEAH
_Dune Messiah_ was the brilliant conclusion to Paul Atreides' arc.
Congrats on the summary!!
He liberates the Fremen from the Emperor but he is not able to liberate them from themselves. Great pair of books just re-readed them after 20 years and i enjoyed them even more.
I wanted to ask a question, don't you guys find Alia a little dumb for having been born with an adult intellect plus all the INT bonuses of the first book?
Guess I will wait to read the 3rd book but that schocked me.
The plot is fine. It just felt a bit padded out with the conversations and monologue. To use an analogy, the first book was like the story of Caesar's conquest of Rome (armies battling it out across the land), whereas Messiah is the post-conquest story of Roman political intrigue and Caesar's assassination, with most of the text taken up with conversations between the senators as to how get rid of Caesar.
If only those senators could be more succinct, eh? A little bit of pruning would have tightened it up.
This sequel was needed to expose the real meaning of "Dune", and it's what makes the difference between Paul's arc and others "heroes" in pop culture. Before it's existance, some readers might worship Paul's character and his actions blindly,becoming another fundamentalist among his fedaykins. Saludos
maybe i'm wrong but dune foretold what occurs in lrge part in messiah...
A future tragedy is alluded to in Dune. That Paul forgoes one of the possible future outcomes because he cannot stomach what he would have to do. But it is always vague. I knew going in, that Messiah would be a tragedy and I felt it had that tone from the start. Thank you for watching.
What I learned in messiah is to not bet against Paul and his baby when comes to accuracy
Hahahah! Don't do it!
I can;t believe it. It's my favourite of the sequels!!
Ooooooo…your favourite? You’re the first person to tell me it was their favourite. That’s great! Have you read on in the series? I’m on Children of Dune and I’m liking it so far.
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Children of Dune is really cool too. More actionpacked than the other, but Dune Messiah is more tragic and passionate for me personally!
Watched a few videos on this book and yours was the most insightful
Thank you!
I became obsessed with this franchise as a kid. Funny enough I discovered from an old MS-DOS computer game about Dune...
Anyways I rabidly read the entire franchise, and can decisively say that Book 1 is the best by a long shot.
Can barely even remember the events of the rest of the books. The only one that sticks out to me is Book 4: God Emperor.
I've heard a lot of people talk about God Emperor. Should be an interesting read when I get there.
One big positive from this book is the return of duncan
Dune Messiah is a much better book than Dune
Wait, it is? I thought it was great. Liked it almost as much a the first book.
Children of Dune is my favorite in the series
I really loved Messiah, Im half through Children of Dune and this book really needs Messiah to exist in terms of how Arrakis has been evolving and the universe with it
I just finished Messiah on Audiobook and I feel like I missed a lot of detail... I couldn't tell if Paul had yet to stop the Jihad or if it had happened in the past, or that Paul was seeing what the Jihad had wrought on the universe in his prescience. I did "read" it as an audiobook but I feel like I'll be able to digest it better in print
I love audio books, but I can struggle with them. My mind is a multi tasked and can wander. I find that often if there are a lot of characters or complex names and terms that I can become lost and then it’s very difficult to understand the meaning behind events. While reading I can stop and reread a section or go back to confirm if the characters are who I thought they were. I’ve listened to an audio book, read a break down of the story and characters, and then listened to the audio book again with great success. There are times that one can’t take the time to read it and listening to the audio book makes more sense.
In Messiah, the Jihad had already begun and isn’t over. It’s on going. But Paul is also seeing the results of it. Thank you for watching.
Pauls Journey is what inspired George Lucas to Create Darth Vader, especially Episode 3, the birth of the twins, lead character being disabled by rivals
Dune has influenced so many other works but definitely Star Wars.
This is actually my fav
Enjoyed Dune and Dune Messiah but was blown away by how good Children of Dune is. Messiah is a nice bridge to Children.
Glad to hear this. Children of Dune will be read this year in 2023.
I loved Dune and Dune:Messiah. I'm about to start "Children Of Dune" next and plan on buying the rest in the future!
Was "Dune" a big seller when it first came out? Maybe Frank Herbert felt like Paul after the first book came out. Maybe he felt oppressed by his own success, and that's what came through in this second book in the Dune Universe.
But u dont get to choose nurture just like nature ..you dont choose your parents or country place u born into ..u dont really choose atleast some of it what happens to you and where u are you where u were
This book was so good, it caught me off guard at first because it is a story of a downfall of a hero, which I really liked as not a lot of people take that approach
I loved it 💜 People who hated it don’t want to see what author wanted to say with this story from the very start.
I loved it too. Thanks for watching.
Loved this video. More Dune please
Thank you for watching.
I super don’t agree that Dune messiah doesn’t live up to Dune, rather it just doesn’t go the direction that most stories would want to with Paul. Messiah isn’t a retcon or realistically a dramatic shift Paul stops caring about the Harkonnens as early as the scene in the tent. As soon as he gains the broader context of the coming Jihad and his lineage he realizes the relativity of the situation. Paul and Jessica outright manipulate the Fremen in the first book and it’s not hidden. Many times Paul remarks how Stilgar is too superstitious and dumb. Jessica mostly wings her way through convincing the fremen she’s special. Even Leto was okay with the idea of exploiting the Fremen. I can see how people missed it which just makes a re-read of the book all that much more interesting, but realistically Dune is just a great case study for Franks point. You’d like to think you wouldn’t get caught up on the wrong side, but here you are with your assumptions about Paul when it’s way too late.
Very true. The truth is ugly. And good or bad really just depends on perspective in a lot of cases.
In the mini-series, the come-uppance that Paul's enemies get...in a *very* short period of time... is reminiscent of the baptism/revenge scenes in the first Godfather film... YP
Gotta love the Godfather.
"A fremen dies when they're too long away from the desert" (page 190)
Paul is a fremen, it's in his eyes.
The empire Paul and the fremen create becomes the downfall of the fremen and the desert, they have the water but they're drowning in it.
Paul is drowning in the universe that he's built, it's unstoppable, and there is no way, no matter how powerful you are, to stop it.
It was a great book 🌴
I apologize if the extract is a bit different from the original, my book is in spanish and that's just my translation.
It was great. Thank you for watching.
I enjoyed Dune Messiah much more than Dune. It took me ONE YEAR to read Dune. I found it to be an incredibly difficult read, and it actually somehow annoyed me. On the other hand, I read Dune Messiah in just two weeks and really loved it. I'm here for philosophical and nihilistic Paul. The confrontation between Paul and The Guild Navigator was amazing. The chapter where the Face Dancer visits Farok, and we hear his version of the Jihad, the experience of seeing seas/oceans for the first time (while killing the inhabitants of that world) was just so beautifully written. I also loved the confrontation between Irulan and The Reverend Mother, where Irulan is told she's very expendable. Overall, Dune Messiah is a great improvement over Dune.
It's always interesting to see how differently books land with different people. Awesome!
I mean, Paul was never an idealistic hero to begin with. Dune messiah carried on what Dune set up.
I agree. I suppose he was ideal in the sense that he was in the right place at the right time, and was a person the Freemen could rally behind because he embraced their culture and he was the genetic anomaly the Bene Gesserit were trying to create to conquer everyone. But arguably he used all that to his advantage.
I don't know anyone who dislikes Dune: Messiah who has also read Dune
When I posted this video there were a lot of scathing reviews on Goodreads for it.
I heard everyone saying that from messiah it get very different very very different
Awesome review, I feel the same way. Can't wait for your God Emperor's review. That's my favorite
Oooo, that’s you favourite? That’s great. I am going to definitely read book 3 and I hope I read book 4 this year. I hope. I feel like Herbert’s writing is such stimulus overload, it’s like running a marathon. I read the first 2 books back to back and then I felt I needed a long break. Lol!
Spoiler I think? Be warned people who haven't read!
I felt after reading through Messiah that the Gom Jabbar reflected Paul's life. He saw that he would create a universe where he longer wanted to live and that he would be miserable in the journey there but he persevered till the end. "A human would endure the pain and wait for the hunter to arrive helping the collective by killing him." And Paul truly endured.
Ooooooo...this is so true. Thank you for sharing it.
I know that he loved Chani but I do think he was kinda cruel to his wife, like I get she was just a political thing but idk. I haven’t read far yet so idk
Paul understand ms the Bene Gesserit better than most because of Lady Jessica. He understands it better than Irulan even. And so he knows she can’t be trusted and in this Paul isn’t wrong. I thought he was rather kind to Irulan all things considered. Have you finished reading it? Have you changed your impressions of Irulan?
It si My favorita....is awasome
That’s great! It was so good in the end.
I actually liked Messiah more than Dune.
Too many redundant boring conversations in Messiah. It just drags on and on before any action takes place. The most interesting conversations were between the conspirators (who were disposed of too easily IMO). I imagine the movie will show more of the jihad to prevent it from being a total snoozefest.
Okay how is messiah of all the dune sequels the worst ? If anyone's been saying that.
Please do the full six parts of Frank’s original series
I plan to do that. Thank you for watching.
Can't wait for your children of Dune review any longer. Be kind and please read it.
I've recommended Dune, then warned people that each successive sequel gets worse and worse, until you get to his son's installments, which are not even workmanlike. Your analysis of Messiah shows me it was probably my immaturity and other failings that led me to dislike the sequels. Perhaps another try ... Hm.
Nothing is for everyone, and the style is very different from the first novel. But you definitely may feel differently about it now. How long ago did you read it all the first time?
Dune messiah was interesting,but was horrible ending. And with it being popular again maybe they will fix parts of it.
Very familiar with Dune. Reddit countless times saw all the movies and all the series multiple times even the new one. But I don't remember finishing Messiah. Need to fosho
I loved it.
Great review, but your pronunciation of most nouns is way off. Looking forward to watching your review of Children of Dune.
Haha! This is what happens when a reader doesn't watch adaptations. Thank you for watching.
Dune, amazing. But Messiah is way too different so i am done with the series. Sad.
6:57 It's funny, I didn't dislike Paul, as I get how he got here, save his treatment of Irulan, but what I found ironic here is I thought the opposite. Aside from it being a little clunkier, I thought that this and Children of Dune bludgeoned you over the head more than the original. It felt like a book, starting off with a warning acted like the warning and got unnecessarily preachy. I don't dislike it per se but I prefer the miniseries Children of Dune to the two novels. While missing a few important things (audiobook version first is recommended by me) I felt more respect for the audiences intelligence, like the first Dune novel, and a better flow of dialogue. Also it was miles and away better than the Dune miniseries that gave birth to it. And the adult like kids on screen would have made me worried for the child actors so, glad they got made "teens," even if I would have especially preferred they and Irulan were flushed out better. The series lacks some important components to Alia as well. And she's my favorite character in the two books, so that was sad but I still feel it kept her essence and a well put together crash and burn.
On nature vs nurture. While Montessori would say nurture, and she did prove all kids are capable of far more, no matter the genes or background, I believe it is a combination of genes, environment and choices. Our choices accumulate, like the steps of learning to speak or walk, whatever direction they take us, gets reinforced until it's practically unconscious. Being aware of that can help us slow choose another direction by accumulating little choices another way. This and many other theme in the book like Tyranny, the illusion of control etc. are already interesting to me and honestly when someone is surprised at the direction Paul went here, I gotta wonder how much they paid attention to the first book. Between him and Jessica, the signs were all there.
I agree, the signs were all there. I’ve never watch any of the adaptations for the dune series. I prefer to read first and then watch and I’ve only recently gotten into Dune. I’m on Children of Dune now.
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize Check, when you finish reading Children of Dune, find the Syfy miniseries, it has James McAvoy, Susan sarandon and the Borg Queen. And possibly my favorite Chani on screen to date. Sorry for the spoilers, didn't realize you hadn't read it.
I just finished it and absolutely hated it.
That's ok. Nothing is for everyone.
My OCD couldn't handle you putting GEoD last instead of fourth in the series. lol
Bah hahahahahaaa! My bad!
Hated Dune Messiah. Totally destroyed the first book.
ive read dune and children of dune countless times over last 20-25 yrs two of my favorite books of all time, but never once mde it all way through dune messiah just found it so boring and ive tryed time and time again just to fill in the gap of the lore between the other 2 books that im missing
Nothing is for everyone, and the pacing of Messiah is slow in the middle. I'm glad to hear you got on well with Children of Dune. I can't wait to read that one.
it does annoy me that i have to rely on children of dune to be informed on what i missed in dune messiah
I love it.
The book is so good, right?
Yo leí dune y mesías...este es genial!!! Sobre todo el aspecto zen
Stopped listening after the “mow dib” pronunciation.
Not a fan of the ending or of Paul in this book. Lacks confidence in ruling, does not try to stop or reform the jihad or care for his family. Basically a different person. Enjoyable read overall but different then Dune, completely.
Very different, I agree.
That's the whole point of the book. Paul knew the jihad would be impossible to stop once it was set in motion so the rest of the book was his downward spiral and death by apathy.
You're good! Thanks!!!
Thank you too!
MUAD’DIB!
MY’BAD?
@@ItsTooLatetoApologize NAW YOU GOOD
No it's not hated, stop making stuff up
You and I are a lot alike.
🙌🏼
Not the most hated anything.
But an obvious cash grab.
If you skipped it and read the rest of the Dune series, you wouldn’t miss a thing
If you're just going to look down at a script the whole time, just give us the essay. We can read faster than we can watch you read.
Also: it's Muad'Dib, not Maud'Dib. It's hard to take someone seriously in a book analysis when they get the main character's title wrong.
Dune Messiah requires a second read after finishing the series. After reading the physical books I reread the series in audiobook format. I’ve been stuck relistening to the last 30 minutes of Messiah every night for a month… still learning new things each pass through. This series is master level work.
I found Children my least favourite of the three I’ve read so far. Loved Messiah. The first is the best of course.
Good to know!
It’s not “ mow dib “ it’s moo ah deeb