LAST OF US - Successes and Failures
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- čas přidán 13. 03. 2023
- My review of the #lastofus show over of HBOMax!
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I actually think the reason why Joel's trap didn't work is because earlier in the episode you learn that he is slightly deaf on one side, and when he's asleep you can see that he's fallen asleep on his good ear and his bad ear can't hear properly. I think Henry did set off the trap, but Joel slept through it.
And the reason he's sleeping on his bad ear is because that's the side it's on when he's *falls asleep facing Ellie*
He was also running on zero sleep and shitty coffee so he was most likely zonked
Pretty obvious really.
and i didn't make the connexion at first but yeah, we learn later that he lost his hearing because he tried to shoot himself and missed
He also just walked up 30 flights of stairs and barely made it, Ellie even pokes fun at him about it. He's completely wiped with a major lack of sleep. We called it at my house the moment he laid down that he wasn't going to wake up short of a bomb going off.
My personal interpretation of Joel's massacre (in both the game and the show) was that he chose Ellie over the human race with his eyes wide open. Joel consistently mentions that people are a bigger threat than the infected, and events often support that. People killed his daughter, people were the ones that were planning to kill Ellie. He both witnessed and participated in the worst that humanity had to offer. I don't think his choice was a reaction to trauma, at least not entirely. I always thought that Joel saved Ellie because he loved her, and because humanity didn't deserve to live.
Spot on. Joel's trauma has made him learn to disassociate, which is what makes him so dangerous. The trauma is not the cause of his actions, but what enables them. I don't think Joel resents humanity though, it's just that in that moment he could disregard their humanity and treat them as obstacles on his way to Ellie.
I'm of the opinion of 'screw the fireflies'. A cure would just be something that they would use as a power move.
I think that's something that a lot of people overlook. Both the fireflies and feds are struggling for power, and I'm pretty sure both sides would only give it out to whoever sided with them. (Though there was a chance their vaccine might not have worked.)
“I used to hate the world and I was glad when everyone died. But I was wrong, because there was one person worth saving.”
Yes, I am against the idea of "objectively bad" as Daniel says. Marlene is saving her world, Joel is saving his world.
I entirely agree with you and to be faithful to his character, he needs no more reason than that.
I will say that it's a side benefit that the doctor was a moron who almost certainly would have doomed humanity by just straight up killing Ellie. He has absolutely no evidence that Ellie's immunity is based in her brain. Just because the fungus lives there doesn't mean that that's how you'd create a cure from her. He had literally no clue how it worked and should have spent MONTHS testing before even considering doing something like that. Freaking idiot. Also, what if it's like anti-venom where it needs to be repeatedly harvested from a living host? Idiot could have ruined humanities chance at survival in one go. So Joel (as a fortunate side effect of his character) probably saved humanity.
I think the lack of a flashback at the end is signifying that it's not really his PTSD kicking but rather a whole new "I need to save this person at all costs". It might be rooted in his PTSD but its not the driving factor for him any more like it was in Ep. 1. His new found love for Ellie is the driving factor, so flashing back to his daughter, at least to me, would send the message that he sees Ellie as his old daughter not his new one. The line earlier in the episode, "It wasn't time" goes to this point.
Came here to say this. The bit in episode 1 is PTSD. The bit in episode 9 is absolutely not. He fully sees Ellie as his daughter now. Any parent can relate to his actions. I'd commit absolute atrocities if I thought my son was in danger. It's illogical but it's just instinct.
So yeah, it's not as if he has a sudden PTSD snap. He knew the moment they sent him out that was the only outcome to do that or die trying. They make a point of slowly walking him out, seeing him check the floor layout, slowly making his way down the stairs. He was formulating his gameplan, knowing that the cramped stairwell was the only place he couldn't get randomly flanked by someone coming from all the doors in the open corridors.
Exactly
I don't think the final shoot out was a PTSD event for Joel. His PTSD manifests as rage and/or panic attacks due to fear of failure.
There was no panic in that shoot out. No anger. He was a soldier on a mission with a deadly calm. He wasn't thinking about Sarah at all. Had flashbacks appeared while doing this, it would have been debilitating and probably would have gotten him killed.
No, he was focused completely and totally on his goal. To retrieve Ellie and remove any obstacle keeping him from her, no matter how small.
It was everyone else who was in a total panic.
His love for Ellie was the motivating power behind that remorseless slaughter, just as his love for Sarah was behind his remorseless disregard of friends and neighbors. Running them over, leaving them stranded on the road, etc.
Tommy: They have a kid, Joel.
Joel: So do we.
Strange how different people do or don't buy chemistry. I personally really loved Riley and Ellie's chemistry. What I loved most is that they felt like teenagers having their first crush. In a lot of media teenage romances most often than not feel like aged down adult romances. But compared to adult romances like with Frank and Bill, I love that Riley and Ellie are much more subdued and unsure in their feelings for each other.
Agreed! They acted off each other beautifully and I felt the crushes.
Completely agree
my thoughts exactly, the awkward teen crush, the anxiety from bella as if fearful of showing too much of her feelings, the obvious internal struggle of "it's now or never" when she was wearing the mask and just showing it with body language, just takes me back memory lane. I am suddenly in my teen years again The chemistry is there, for me. Maybe other people just come in with personal expectations that need to be met as exactly as they wish
Yes! I love how they played this! I think anyone who has ever had a crush on a friend. Especially at the age of these characters, would awkwardly wrestle with the implications of crossing that line. It's even more layered when it's a same-sex crush because it's very likely that neither of them has really formed a full thought on if they are queer or just into this one person. And what does that even mean. Oh yeah, then there's this whole annoying apocalypse and the splintered factions/organizations of remaining humanity and the fact Riley has just joined the other side. Just a small complication, lol.
I really love the sense of "is this a date" which I have certainly experienced hanging with other girls and getting close to them when I was younger. As because we tend to have same-sex friendships more frequently then across genders, sometimes it's easy to be unsure of the signals. And all that many layered confusion was in every scene with Riley and Ellie. I absolutely thought they knocked it out of the park together. I absolutely love the apology after the kiss and then Riley asking what are you appologizing for. So well played!
How many adults you know are paranoid enough to built traps all around their house and build walls only to invite some random dude over into their space? And this guy within 3 seconds becomes super entitled, and then suddenly somehow knows this dude is gay and then they become lovers and then they do the "romantic" self deletion together ..It's sooo poorly written but everyone keeps praising this sht.
It was extremely well acted. But the scenario made 0fkn sense.
The added dialogue in the final episode was great. "It wasnt time that did it".
nah it's corny and on the nose.
Screen Crush pointed out that the reason we needed to see Marlene's connection with Ellie's mom is to show the difference between their motivation. Marlene is motivated by a duty to her friend while Joel is motivated by love of Ellie. I think the ending kind of encapsulates the true implication of tribalism. When the cards are down, people will always do what is best for them instead of the greater good.
I would argue that what the fireflies wanted to do would have had no impact on delving the issue. They came up with a hypothesis based on the fact that she was immune and, without testing anything, went straight to disecting her brain. They would have killed her and most likely never learned anything.
@@phildo87 That feels like a cop out however.
It seems clear to me that they want you to assume that this is going to work everything else would make this whole dilemma less meaningful.
It is just like the last choice in life is strange 1.
Did people survive the storm ? We don’t know but the framing pretty much implies that nobody survived. This dilemma is what makes it interesting and difficult I don’t see how „it wouldn’t have worked anyway“ would be more interesting.
@food supply the fact that they believe it will work means nothing. If his hypothesis that the fungus thinks she is already infected so the new fungus won't grow would also mean all of the zombies would just leave her alone like they do to the others. They had no way to know what was the reason she was immune because they didn't test anything and had no way to test until she arrived. The logic of the fireflies was flawed massively and, if taken logically, would have ended up with them killing their best chance at finding a cure or vaccine.
@@phildo87 I was saying that I think that the writers wanted it to come across as if the vaccine is something very likely or else it would be stupid writing. There would be no meaning behind this dilemma if it weren’t that way. Talking about all the possible ways that could go wrong like probability of success and logistics go to far and are a bit of a cop out.
The interesting question here is it justified to kill 20 people and risk a probable cure for the life of a child.
Not „well actually it is very unlikely and the doctors had to actual time to assess all information and because of that I assume the probability of the cure is pretty slim and let’s forget the other 20 people“
@food supply If the writers wanted that to be implied, then they should have done a better job of making it logically sound. Also, how do we know that Joel believes they would succeed. If he thinks it would be in vain, then it's easy to justify killing people who plan to disect a child because they believe it's necessary. The show only says that the fireflies believe that this will work but never explains how they came to that conclusion other than the Dr thinks this is the case.
I think the moment Joel in episode 8 called Ellie baby girl after that massive trauma she endured post episode 6 where he tried so hard to sever his connection to her just hit me like a truck especially being a father myself. It also really for me cemented his decision, whether right or wrong to rescue her in episode 9. The development of Joel and his connection to Ellie was immaculate!
An interesting bit of info on the ending for the game is that when they were testing it, they asked people if they they agreed with what joel did. If the playtester wasn't a parent, about fifty percent of them agreed with his actions, but if they were parents, it was one hundred percent with no exceptions.
I'd doom humanity with barely a second thought if not doing so required me to knowingly sacrifice my kid.
Abraham was not a good father, I don't understand why anyone would hold him or his convictions as something to aspire to.
@@applegeepedigree Abraham didn’t sacrifice his child though, that’s like the whole point of the story.
@@calebrogers693 Because an angel stepped in and stopped him before he could go through with it. The "whole point of the story" is that Abraham was 100% going to murder his son by his own hand because God told him to simply to test his faith.
That's so wild to me that it differed over whether or not someone had kids... I'm not a parent and never plan on having children. I wouldn't sacrifice Ellie. I'm not convinced that killing her is necessary for a vaccine 🤷♀️. Idk, I don't want kids, don't have friends with kids, don't have nieces or nephews. I don't even really like kids lol but if I saw a child in danger you bet I'm throwing myself into it. Kids are vulnerable to violence and manipulation...
@@applegeepedigree It was about faith. Did he trust God enough that everything would shake out okay? He knew that his God cared about him and wouldn't put him through unnecessary pain and that he'd earlier been promised that a nation would be born through his bloodline. It wasnt "will you kill your son because I said so?" it was "do you trust me?" Further, its also explained later in Hebrews that God could raise him up even in some event that his son did die. Either way he knew that God wasn't going to allow the situation to end with his only son dead. And THAT's the point. He knew God well enough that he trusted him to do what he asked, regardless of how it seemed.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that little talk between Joel and Tommy in episode 6. That was some incredible acting from Pedro Pascal.
I was watching the finale with my mom and without hesitation she said: “Ya I’d do the same” during the massacre 😭
If I was your mom I'd leave you. I'm sorry kid, I need the world to find a cure and get back to normal so that they can finally make season 2 of the Last of Us.
@@cigh7445 well good thing you ain’t my mom
I think the Ellie birth scene was more put in to explain why she was immune. I liked that touch since it’s not explained in the game (that I remember). I also loved they had game Ellie give birth to show Ellie. It started off with me thinking “we don’t need this” but I actually liked having it in there.
tbf... the reason she is immune is completely meaningless. "she just is" is more than enough
I thought it was also important to show a connection between Marlene and Ellie. In the game she just said she was close to her mom. We never saw it. I think adding context to show that her choice in the end was hard on her helped with the impact of her choice
it changes the whole world though
@@mcintyre0591 yes that was the most important element of the flashback
@@alicepbg2042 Except the reason she is immune is one of the biggest points in the finale. If they didn't know HOW she was immune then they'd do more testing and not move to immediate "we need to cut her open". "She just is" is completely stupid and removes the finale while they do testing to figure it out. Marlene very likely gave the details and that let them figure it out faster.
"I got you baby girl" almost wrecked me
I’m in the camp that enjoyed the pacing of the finale (might be the only one here 😂). It was fast but it kind of increased the urgency of the situation for me. It actually made Joel’s choice more believable in my mind because he just had to act so quickly he didn’t think of any other path forward, even just talking more to them or something. Like they’re on the verge of killing her, you have to do something NOW
no you're not the only one, it made sense to me too. And some who complained of it being shorter was actually just craving for more or for a longer time ,not exactly about the pacing
Hard agree. Yes, the pacing helped make me be in the moment with Joel and stay with his point of view, relate as a father and connect with him-“yes, kill them all, just save her at any cost”- Deep deep love can make you do horrible, even evil, things and in some sense not even be “wrong”, doing the good and right thing for love is easy, realizing you’d do bad things is both a testament to the strength of love and frightening realization.
And to the Fireflies, sure they didn’t realize how deep Joel’s connection had become and how Ellie had rekindled his fatherhood, but damn, would it have killed you to just take some more time to explain? Or even entertain other options? Or give Ellie a choice (we know that unfortunately she’d probably have chose to give her life)?
Well, the alternative certainly did kill you :/
In terms of the ending: I played this game ten years ago and still don't know where I fall on the morality of it all. But I want to point out that it's not trading one child's life for countless lives. It's trading a child's life based on one doctor's best guess about the mechanism of her immunity and how it could possibly be reproduced. A doctor without proper medical equipment, without a proper lab environment, without an adequate number of subjects to do anything but take a single stab in the dark and hope it works. Even if there were a correctly working vaccine, distributing it would be next to impossible, FEDRA would still exist (and maybe even try to prevent the distribution of a vaccine), the world would still lack a real government, there would still be the extant infected out there, there would still be lawless raiders, there could still be further mutations, there are probably anti-vaxxers. A trap as simple as glass laid out didn't work. This is so much more complicated than that. I think it's important in that discussion to be more realistic about the trade here, because a lot of people talk about it as though if Ellie died, in the next moment the Cordyceps virus would disappear entirely, all extant infected would just evaporate into thin air, all technological advancements would be restored, democratic government would just come back in a fully functional way, and FEDRA would disappear. Especially in 2023, we all know that a vaccine is not a magic spell to resolve all ills from a pandemic.
And like, okay, I'll shut up about this after this one thing: people have pointed out that scientifically, killing basically your only live specimen of immunity as your first and only step/plan of action for interacting with that specimen is shit science, but I think that has more to do with just the writers needing to set up a moral problem more than they needed to be scientifically accurate. BUT I do think the tensions I described above do factor into the diegetic moral problem the writers and devs intended to set up. Does that distinction make any kind of sense?
I agree totally. I haven't played the game but was aware of the general ending prior to watching. I think the uncertainty is undeniable when Marlene briefly describes the process of sample to vaccine. I can't recall exactly but the proposed mechanism of action was basically we think body produces chemical to trick cordyceps into thinking the body is cordyceps, if we get sample, isolate cells, get the molecule, reproduce molecule and voila world is saved.
I suppose morally it could be argued that maybe, maybe, the smallest possibility of success outweighs the risk aka Ellies life. But they also demonstrate in the birth scene that Marlene does not know the actual timing of events, as Ellies mom lied to her saying she was bit after cutting the cord. That single piece of information might be incredibly influential when attempting to guess how the immunity generated and to what extent it could be replicated. Not to mention everything you mentioned, the complexity of this proposed task is just off the charts.
Having some experience doing lab research in physiology, my brain was immediately trying to calculate how they could ever possibly succeed in discovering, reproducing, and distributing a vaccine.
Outside of practicality, I think it also tips the morality scale pretty largely in Joel's favor. Now lying about the events to Ellie might be more debatable. It also seems fireflies also failed to inform Ellie she wouldn't be waking up, so I don't feel like Joel necessarily did a bad by taking some choice away from her. All in all seems like a pretty reasonable choice for a parent to make.
I really feel like I'd they'd given Joel's decision at the end more time to breathe it would've had way more impact. Also I'm convinced that sequence would've worked best as a continuous one-take, not just because it would've looked cool, but because watching it unfold in real time really gives the audience time to consider what he's doing. I mean the whole moral conundrum of Joel failing utilitarianism harder than anyone has ever failed utilitarianism before has been a central part of fan engagement for a years
There’s no moral conundrum. Joel was protecting his daughter, simple as that.
@@gabethegeek593 brother, I'm not gonna get into it but pretending like there's no moral conundrum just because you firmly fall on one side of it is straight up Silly Billy behavior
@@gabethegeek593 Did you even finish the video? Because Daniel just sums up why it's a moral conundrum
I wanted the continuous shot so badly. I felt like it could’ve really elevated the episode.
Joel didn't fail utilitarianism. Utilitarianism failed Joel 🙃
I personally love episode 7 and see them both struggling with the fact that they have feelings toward each other. Riley trying to push it aside maybe because she knows she’ll most likely never see Ellie after she leaves.
Had a fun time watching you edit this on stream, keep up the great work Daniel!
Glad you enjoyed it!
The series never sold the narrative that the Fireflies were saving humanity to me. They did zero tests, took no time to try anything else, didn't even try to take or grow a sample. They had her and within a few hours decided to kill Ellie. They didn't know what they were doing and were just stumbling around, killing kids, and hoping they found a cure. Joel lying to Ellie was uncomfortable, but it's not the moral equivalent to what the Fireflies were doing. It also felt weird because it was completely unnecessary for him to lie. A simple "I'm sorry Ellie, the Fireflies didn't know what they were doing and just wanted to cut your head open to experiment. Let's go back to Tommy's and we'll try to figure something else out.".
So, the whole PoV on what the Fireflies were doing seems forced and contrived to me and just didn't land. Causing Joel to lie on a plot point they never sold to me was an ever bigger disconnect.
How rushed the whole episode felt, combined with that I felt like was a poor premise made the whole ending fall flat for me.
"I'm sorry Ellie, the Fireflies didn't know what they were doing and just wanted to cut your head open to experiment"
But Joel didn't think of that as far as we know. WE the audience got to that conclusion. Joel just wanted to save Ellie because he got attached to her. So it would've been even worse than the lie. At least with him lying we'll have better dramatic moment when she inevitably finds out.
@@sericsson1996 Joel realizes what the writers let him realize. They didn't sell the narrative of a cure, but wrote the characters as if they did. This is a problem with the writing.
They weren't even killing "kids". Like I would actually give the "choice" to kill Ellie more "weight" if they had kids and not one kid. One kid that if this doesn't work gives them NOTHING. You try everything before killing your only subject first because once you kill your only subject, if it doesn't work you have lost your subject.
Because Ellie is the only one, the Narrative actually fails to sell that Joel doomed humanity for a personal reason. Which I think is what they wanted, but instead the Fireflies look like idiots working with a clueless Doctor who probably couldn't cure anything, no matter what Joel believes. Joel seems like he's in the right simply for the chance that the Doctor knew what the heck he was doing being zero. It doesn't help that we saw a scientist with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE earlier in the series with major equipment still available found the situation hopeless.
Adding in Eliie's birth only makes it shocking no one in the Fireflies attempted to replicate those conditions. As I don't think they'd have a moral issue with trying with a few preggers women. Heck, the firefly women might even volunteer.
@@TheDawnofVanlife Yes, the whole thing is very problematic. I like the show, but the ending made no sense. They managed to make it make even less sense than the game. I don't see how doesn't become an even bigger narrative problem in future seasons. If it's anything like the game, they're going to double down on you not seeing things the way we laid them out and focus all your moral handwringing on Joel. How knows though, they did a lot of things very well, maybe they'll realize it and pull it off? I hope so.
The thing is, tho, Ellie has MASSIVE survivor’s guilt. There’s zero chance she wouldn’t have wanted the Fireflies to do whatever they thought was necessary.
She would NEVER forgive Joel for taking her from them if she knew the truth; especially because she knows him well enough, she probably wouldn’t believe him if he said they were too incompetent to make a cure and he wasn’t gonna let her for die for nothing.
I mean….this is the kid who seemed to genuinely believe she could just put her blood on Sam’s wound, and he might be saved. She knows Jack shit about science, and Joel doesn’t know much more. Why would she believe his analysis over the literal scientists, especially when she never got the chance to actually talk to any of the scientists?
Ellie wasn't excited with giving Sam her blood, she was reassuring him and felt nice that she's been able to help someone she cares about (or thought she was)
Ellie and Riley had amazing chemistry imo.
I think the flashback before the guard punches the guard in ep 1 was important to include, otherwise many people would interpret that as Joel just being violent rather than experiencing PTSD specifically to do with his daughter. He is a violent person but father/daughter relationships are paramount to the whole story so this needed to be stressed. If you have loads of people asking how Ellie knew in ep 8 that David's crew were cannibals, then you know you have to be clear about something that crucial to the story .
Joel's actions in ep 9 were no longer tied to his PTSD about Sarah, we had the conversations before and after the shoot out demonstrating that he's reached some closure about Sarah because of the love he's gained for Ellie, who he has now fully embraced as his new child and he doesn't confuse the two daughters at all ("I think you would have been friends... even though you're quite different from each other"). No flashbacks needed or sensical at this point.
I agree that the show needed to be longer, but I think only 1 more episode would have been nice.
Rather than episode 9 be the finale, have episode 9 be a struggle fest, Joel and Ellie are fighting their way through an urban environment against infected, but they are fucking ON TOP of it. They are communicating with just eye movements and hand gestures, they are moving with decisiveness and swift action. They are one mind in two bodies and are REALLY a team. This accomplishes a few things.
1. It gives us more infected, which let's be honest there wasn't enough of
2. It gives us a more 'gameplay' like scenario which they did not shy away from in the first place.
3. It gives a good contrast to episode 2 with the clicker, but rather than it be chaotic and disorganized we see how much they have grown in the time on the road
4. It gives us a deeper emotional connection to the two characters.
I think this really would have helped sell the finale.
Side note: I wish they made the hospital massacre an 'old boy' style hallway one take.
Going to episode 4, when Ellie tries to use her blood to save Sam: I took it more as she thinks that the Fireflies are just going to need her blood to be able to make a cure, and therefore her blood might be able to cure Sam. Sam is also the first infected person that Ellie has actually cared about, and therefore why she is willing to trust him with her secret and try to save him. In those moments I don't think that she is afraid at all, because she truly thinks that it would work. That's why she was so aloof about it, and didn't tell Henry or Joel.
I agree with wanting more time after episode 8. We see at the end with "It's okay, baby girl", that Joel is finally letting himself realize that he loves Ellie as a daughter. I wanted more time for them to really be able to expand on that portion of their relationship, and also see how the trauma of what Ellie went through affected her and therefore changed how Joel intereacted with her. We see a little bit in episode 9 that he recognizes that she is traumatized and needs help, but he doesn't know what to do or how to really help her (but the fact that he found the Boggle game and was willing to carry it - you have to remember, from a survivalist point of view you don't carry anything that isn't 1. going to be useful, or 2. will take up space that you can use for something more important - to try and help her heal literally broke my heart, it was one of my favorite scenes). And the giraffe scene was such a nice scene to see, as, for a moment, she is back to the Ellie he knows. Right then he sees her smile and laugh and is like "that's my girl, she's still in there"
In the last episode I tracked that Joel had decided to do what he did while still in the room with Marlene. He even stops and looks at the sign on the wall trying to figure out which floor Ellie would be on. I also think the question "did Joel do the right thing" is based on the presumption that Ellie & the doctors might not have found a cure. If Ellie was definitely 100% the cure to the infection, then yes, absolutely Joel did the wrong thing. But if what the doctors were doing wasn't guaranteed, then Joel's actions to save Ellie may or may be justified at some level. We aren't given enough information to know if Joel's actions were right in saving Ellie (and there wasn't a cure) or wrong in killing humanity (and Ellie really was the cure).
And it's established that Joel doesn't like or trust the Fireflies, so why would he sacrifice Ellie to them on the remote off-chance of a cure they might not share?
In reality, it's never a guarantee. But even so, the fireflies were being reckless with the one person in all the world who was immune. She was their golden goose. There should have been weeks or months of study and everything that would not mean her death should have been tried before this. But they were prepping her for surgery the second she was in the hospital?! Zero tests? Not even an MRI?!
They were going for a Hail Mary pass on the first down of the first play, knowing humanity is doomed if they drop the ball.
Stupid and reckless. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it wasn't Joel the one who was saving humanity by keeping Ellie out of the clutches of those nut jobs.
Joel should have taken her back to Jackson, told her the truth about how reckless they were with her life, and then tell her that if she wants to do it, their new purpose in life is to find some real scientists and doctors who could conduct real research to find a cure.
And if one day they reach the same conclusions, Ellie will be old enough and healed enough to make the choice that is right for her after having the chance of living at least a little time in safety and peace.
Even if a cure was found, he still did the right thing because cordiceps isn't the main issue anymore in this world.
People get killed by raider or mauled to death by clickers.
That was always a point I liked about the game: there's nothing left to save, humanity already lost and the Fireflies are foolish for thinking they can fix anything with a cure.
@@dgmilloway How do we know that the Fireflies haven't tried some of those things back in Boston? They had years of her growing up to do blood work and run tests. Maybe Fedra founds the scientist doing that work at some point before Ellie escaped from the school.
@@davebenhart4611 we're talking about the show, and we can only know what the show tells us. The show made no mention of any testing ever being done. If they had had the facilities for testing, they wouldn't have had Ellie chained up to an old radiator in a crumbling house. They wouldn't have needed to send her all the way across the country.
My impression from watching the show is Marlene did not know that Ellie was immune until she came to the mall and found her perfectly fine while Riley had turned. She probably would have shot Ellie anyway, but she knew who Ellie was. So instead she took Ellie back to the hideout and chained her up for three more weeks just to make sure.
It's a very difficult balance to strike. I guarantee that if they had gone twelve episodes a lot of people would have been complaining that it dragged on too long and in general it's always better to leave the audience craving for more.
It's good to get an objective take on the final episode, because I was so blown away by the surprises and the raw emotion of it that I was simply enthralled (haven't played the game so I didn't know what was coming). I agree that it went too fast and tried to pack too much into such a short span, but my God, what fantastic writing and performances. For any writer, that was a masterclass in setting up unexpected and heartbreaking emotional conflict. And what's so great is that these weren't twists for the sake of having a twist. Everything that happened was backed by understandable and relatable motivation. Just brilliant storytelling by the writers of the original game, and an unforgettable adaptation. Bravo.
I agree that the final episode should have been a minimum of two just to give us more of their new chemistry..
But I thought the scientists going straight for Ellie's brain to be an awful plan. Yes, cordyceps grows in the brain, and therefore is capable of crossing the blood/brain barrier, but it seems scientifically dumb to destroy the only known immune person before running any other tests on her..
I always interpreted that decision as the doctor not really having any idea what he was doing. Brain biopsies are a thing, after all. They’re risky, but not lethal. I took it as him just winging it on a desperate hope that he was on to something.
I was one of the people who didn’t like episode 3. I rewatched it and realized it really is a good love story, but I’m still adamant it didn’t belong in this series. To coincide with your gripes later in the season with “us needing as much Joel/Ellie story as we can get to attach to their relationship”, I felt like episode 3 detracted from the story. It didn’t push the plot forward at all and felt out of place. It’s a very well written love story on its own, but as a part of the season we could’ve done without it.
And no, I don’t believe I’m a “phobe” for this opinion. I would maintain this opinion if the same episode was dedicated to a hetero relationship.
I disagree on the finale Daniel, I thought the last 20 mins or so of ep 8 totally sold us that Joel now has accepted Ellie as a surrogate daughter and will do anything to save her. And also throughout the show that he has little faith in humanity anyway and especially not the Fireflies - we are the real monsters, him and Tommy fell out cos Tommy got involved with the Fireflies - and so he just doesn't believe Darleene and isn't willing to sacrifice Ellie's brain on the off-chance the Fireflies can magic up a cure for what is left of humanity - most of whom Joel hates and distrusts anyway. It worked for me
By and large, I agree. I keep thinking that the first game could have been covered over two seasons of TV (even 8 episode seasons) would have made things feel so much smoother. The pacing reminded me alot like a checklist that you said where Action 1 -> Action 2 -> Action 3. Making every arc even last 1 more episode each would have largely been a better option other than the excellent episode 3 which can and will stand out as its own work of art.
Speaking of Rose and her actress (Melanie Lynskey) check out Yellowjackets. It's fantastic.
Yes she's a good actress but the Kathleen character just didn't do it for me. Up until she left the show I honestly worried that it was a sign that this show could become a later Walking Dead ripoff with clichéd not very believable characters etc
Love your review! I don't think Joel was ever in the military, Tommy was the "joiner". Joel just learned how to murderize people really well and didn't care if he lived or died for 20 years.
your insight and words regarding trauma really, really hit. thank you so much for being honest and open with us
It's an adaptive response to Learned Helplessness. Some people shut down entirely and give up, but some just shut off the feelings for parts of life that can't be controlled. (re: Joel and Tess)
I took Ellie's blood cure effort as a desperate, lack of science effort. It seemed very age 14 to me, which is appropriate.
Any doctor able to create a cure can withdraw brain cells without killing the subject. Joel is right here. If he needed the whole brain, the doctor was a hack.
But I agree that more time is always better.
I think the perception of the pacing, particularly in the finale, is probably different for people who haven't played the game. They're not looking each scene from the game to see how they were adapted. They're just along for the ride. IMO the game covered everything it needed to. The finale could've been a little bit longer but to me it didn't *need* to be. Overall I think the show is about as good as it could've possibly been
Ellie and Riley had believable chemistry for me. I felt that twinge of attraction buried underneath the awkward insecurities. Like they have feelings for each other, but can’t really verbalize it for fear of rejection. Gave me similar vibes to Joel and Ellie where they have so many feelings for each other, but they can’t verbalize it. Definitely set up big parallels between Joel and Ellie and Ellie and Riley in that Riley was the biggest love that she lost prior to Joel as the similar dynamic made me buy more into why Ellie loved Joel so much.
And yeah I actually will question this show being 12 episodes. It’s easy to say this season should be 12 episodes, but I fail to see how this story benefits from 3 entirely new episodes. I don’t actually see any narrative reason that justifies three extra episodes that wouldn’t feel padded or repetitive. You don’t need three episodes just to show off a bond. I think people are just conditioned by the modern television format where everything feels more drawn out and longer because everything has to be more serialized. I can see an argument for maybe 1 episode, but even then I think a better compromise would just be longer episodes for some episodes.
And I also disliked the flashback in the first episode and I think it was smart not to include another flashback at the end. Joel’s flashbacks in Episode 6 happened because he felt weak and incapable of protecting Ellie. In the finale, a light switch goes off and he is laser focused on protecting Ellie. He is the personification of everything he needed to be when he couldn’t save Sarah. Joel in Episode 6 feels like a different Joel in Episode 9. He feels strong in 9 where he felt weak in 6. Ellie has firmly become his new purpose, and he will do whatever it takes to save her because he already knows what it felt like to lose his purpose when he lost Sarah.
So yeah, for the main pacing arguments, I would like to see more arguments as to why 12 episodes were needed. I just can’t fathom finding new material to pad out the story just to strengthen a bond that may or may not have even needed to be strengthened. But again my sensibilities are more oriented towards efficiently using the time you have and finding ways to tell the most story possible with as least amount as content possible. I don’t think 12 episodes is really needed to tell this story. But I am open to seeing some arguments to the contrary provided they are more than just “we needed more episodes”.
I feel like the show really needed one big episode where we see joel contend with infected and killing a bloater. It really undersold the danger of the infected in the show, the last time we see any credible threat is like episode 5
@@passdoutcouchpotatos
I think that is totally a fair critique. More Infected action would be cool to up their threat level. I personally think they did a good job with quality over quantity as every time an Infected showed up someone died or got bitten, but sometimes a little quantity is needed, so I see what you’re saying. I can see an argument for maybe a good solid episode of Joel and Ellie fighting off Infected between Jackson and UEC. I struggle to see how an entire episode can be made just to justify an Infected action sequence, but I can see that argument at least. Maybe a compromise can happen if they lengthened Episode 6 to showcase more action to up the danger.
I love your reviews, just wanted to say you’re genuinely one of my favorite content makers on the platform and I’m really glad I found your channel.
One kind of minor criticism I have is how much they toned down the infected during the second half. We have the awesome climax in episode 5 and from that point on Joel and Ellie literally don't encounter another zombie. We only see a couple during flashbacks. Obviously this isn't the game and I don't expect them to be fighting off a horde every 10 minutes (and arguably it makes sense for there to be less out in the frozen wild), but why not have for example Ellie and David encountering a couple of clickers in the hut they wait in?
because why would there? the clickers are not the point. the infected are not the point. why waste time in pointless things?
we don't need a quota of zombie action scenes.
Why would they run into infected after kansas city?They are largely in the middle of nowhere. Outside of large population centers infected would be rare and the Midwest is sparsely populated.
@@alicepbg2042 In the example I gave I don't think it's pointless at all. Ellie and David fighting zombies together would help build more trust between them and also later when she says she's infected David would have more reason to believe her. Like I said I understand the point is the characters and I don't need it to be constantly action-packed. But having NO infected to be seen was still kind of jarring
@@yotamkaspi8508 those reasons do not seem at all important.
She never trusted him.
He doesn't need a reason to believe her or not.
It adds nothing
@@alicepbg2042 In the game they do work together and it is a small "bonding" moment.
I definitely agree that the ending was rushed, this needed at least one more episode if not three more. And I'm normally not one to nitpick dialogue that was in the source material being ommitted in the adaptation, but I did miss not having the exchange between Marlene and Joel where after Marlene says she knew Ellie since she was a baby and promised her mom she'd look after her (especially having the added weight of seeing that flashback at the beginning), and Joel asks, "Then why are you letting this happen?" And Marlene says, "Because this isn't about me. Or her." And then, when she says there's no choice, Joel says, "You keep tellin' yourself that bullshit." I just really think it adds an extra layer of strength to the argument for both sides--the pivotal mistake of neither side letting Ellie have any voice in the matter one way or the other aside.
Fucking loved the season. Pedro Pascal is the ultimate single father and is a national treasure.
The end is best summed up by this Amos quote from The Expanse:
*People are tribal. The more settled things are, the bigger the tribes can be.*
*The churn comes, and the tribes get small again.*
In the end, you protect your own, that's all there is to it.
Hey Daniel! Love the videos man! I know doing fantasy and sci-fi related content doesn't give you the most views and subscribers in the world but this community really does look forward so much to all your videos man! Keep it up
Fantastic show overall, easy 9/10 for me. My biggest issue was the pacing for the final episode, I totally agree that there should have been additional episodes to this season. There was abundant time to deepen the emotional significance of Joel’s choices in the end. Still, holy moly what a good time watching!!
Completely agree had the last episode been given more time to breathe this would’ve been a 10/10 for me
I haven’t played the game, series only. The pacing was bad for me…including spending 9 episodes pushing a storyline (bring Ellie to Marlene) just to spend 15 mins on it in finale which made it all pointless and instantly ended that plot
Yep, last episode was the weakest in the season imo, which isn't a great place to be.
@Ryan Nesbitt yeah, the game basically ends the same but feels better paced to me. Maybe just because of the gameplay elements allowing for more time to build narrative tension.
i thought the show was vapid, boring and poorly done. I stopped after the Karen episode and started rewatching the walking dead which is far superior.
I really loved this show! I think the one-off episodes were great and I especially loved the 'procedural' (town of the week) nature to the show - mainly because I miss procedurals and I think many TV shows would benefit from being procedurals instead of being serials.
That said, I do wish there was more zombie action in the back half of the show. I felt like they spent all their zombie budget on the first 5 episodes, that by episode 6 they were only allowed one zombie per episode, which broke immersion for me, "Where are the zombies?? I thought they were a huge threat; why haven't we seen any in 3 weeks??" It was a bit strange.
Besides that, I thought this was a great series and I look forward to future seasons :)
"I really loved this show! I think the one-off episodes were great and I especially loved the 'procedural' (town of the week) nature to the show"
Nah that's the good part with shows. When they have a serialised story to tell where each episode feels episodic but is part of a whole. Not individual episodes being completely episodic with no continuation.
"mainly because I miss procedurals"
Well there you have it. You miss them and you want them back and I'm sure there are some out there.
@@sericsson1996 I think it's a mistake to think episodic story telling has to have no connective tissue. Maybe in old style TV where there was "challenge of the week" and then seemingly an almost full reset to the status quo. But this is not the "exclusive" was to handle episodic TV. You can can a storyline that is wrapped up in an episode two, have characters who evolve, change, and are impacted and then introduce a new threat that challenges them where the impact of the previous episode effects the next. "The Fugitive" (TV show) for example, has a "challenge of the week" in a "town of the week" but the over-arch story of him being a fugitive on the run still impacts the series from beginning to end and then has to wrap up that story in the final episode. "Babylon 5" as it progressed became more interconnective but there are still issues of the week wrapped up in that week. X-Files had an over-reaching threat in their Mythos episodes but also spent time chasing ware wolves and ghost and other things that had nothing to do with the main mythos arch. Buffy always had a villain of the season, but also had several "threat of the week" episodes.
If I remember correctly, it is mentioned that many infected do not live forever. In most Zombie lore, the rise from the dead goes on nearly indefinitely and continues to populate as more people die. It's implied that isn't the case here. They do eventually stop being functional. With the Cordesyps(sp?) it is mentioned rather early in the series while some seem to have longer function, they do stop moving at some point. So they aren't just roaming "always waiting" in the shadows. I think the mistake was the first two episodes establishing this link that made them rise and attack if you triggered one as this mechanic is dropped and ignored later. But rather it's communes or Fedra or cults or some guy who's gated off his community, as humanity has gotten better at "fencing themselves in" it seems like the threat literally "died" out, not in a "not a threat" way, there's plenty of dormant nest out there it seems. But as long as you don't stumble on said nest, there seems to be plenty of places to navigate. They don't seem to hunt humans so much as attack when they sense humans are near (such as the one triggered in the mall) so they don't endlessly roam searching for a feeding. They are more so triggered into action by proximity. As this isn't Joel's first trip outside Fedra walls, the ability to navigate dormant areas makes sense. Infected aren't actually hiding around every corner and while there is a degree of caution needed, this isn't the walking dead with roaming zombies at every turn. They kind of just chill until food stumbles across them. And some infected literally "die out".
Random but thank you for reading Hyperion and continuing to reference it 😭. I chose to read it for a sci-fi class in college and it changed everything for me moving forward. Really moved and shook me to my core.
I just finished it a couple of weeks ago! Can’t believe I’d never heard it spoken of on booktube
I mostly agree with you, except for the chemistry between Riley and Ellie but my score is higher i would give it like 8,5.
The show has flaws but they don't make it unenjoyable in any point and the good parts are just too good. My favourite episode is definitely ep8 i wasn't so disgusted by a villain in a long time.
Ahhh what an analysis!! I finished binging the whole show literally a few days ago and I'm in awe. It truly was much more engaging and emotional than I thought it was going to be, considering what I knew (and I haven't played the game, so I knew very little) - Bill and Frank's episode had me sobbing the whole time and I was so impressed by Nick Offerman's performance!
Yes, I didn't particularly feel the chemistry between Riley and Ellie but I loved the backstory that episode brought into the bigger picture, I was surprised to see how 2 teenagers were able to sustain and hold up an entire episode by themselves!
And Joel's massacre in the last episode just reached a whole other level. Yes, it is "objectively" morally wrong but it felt right for that story and the main characters acting in it, it felt inevitable and the way in which it was shot makes you physically feel the detachment and determination Joel must have felt in that moment. *shivers* I'm just sorry about how abruptly it ended. I would have loved more time to explore Joel and Elle's relationship after what happened in episode 8 and after what Joel did in the hospital but I'm guessing we'll see that in season 2 and I can't wait!
I feel like the lack of infected ends up undermining the ending. Things as a whole seem a LOT less dire in the show than in the game, which makes the Fireflies' actions seem a lot less reasonable. I also feel like the hospital shootout was really underwhelming. The choices of cutting around and playing music over it completely eliminated all sense tension for the whole sequence for me. I wish it had been more of following Joel as he works his way through the hospital as a faux-oner with maybe a bit of handheld camera action instead of what we got. It felt like I was watching a flashback and I was not in the moment at all.
I posted a reply to another video before I saw this one that echoes a lot of what you said, especially about the last episode. All season everything felt like they were taking their time to really explore the world and the Ellie/Joel relationship as well as humanity's relationships with each other, then in the last episode it felt like a speed reading after the giraffes.
I never played the games so my opinion of the show overall is around an 8/10, though could've been almost a 9 if the last episode wasn't so weak.
My criticisms: their inability to avoid using zombie tropes on multiple occasions. It seemed to me they used a LOT of phantom bites, which of course cropped up again in the superfluous opening to the last episode. They also used "getting jumped" as a way to move the plot forward way too often. This was used again in the last episode before Ellie went in for surgery. That device works when used a little, but it felt like when the writers needed something to happen they wrote in something or someone coming out of nowhere. Like at some point I started thinking Joel and Ellie are just extremely unaware for living in a post apocalypse.
As for whether or not Joel was right, I think we're supposed to think he's a monster, but really the fireflies brought a lot of it on themselves. First you jump them, then tell Joel she's under the knife, he doesnt get to talk to her, she's gonna die, now we're going to walk you out uncuffed and with rifles in close proximity. K. ALSO, did anyone consider that killing her might be for nothing? That it wouldn't work? Maybe some research was needed? Fireflies rushed it. I also think if they just took them in calmly and Joel had a chance to talk to Ellie, Joel might've been more subdued.
Lastly, for a post apocalyptic world overrun with zombified humans leaving everyone in survival mode, we really didn't see many infested humans except in KC. Basically, after the opening episode, and the start of the infestation, the world got pretty tame in 20 years.
34:57 It’s a reminder of the issue addressed in Star Trek Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock: one for the many vs. many for the one. Kirk was willing to sacrifice himself and all of Starfleet to save his friend.
I felt like a season could have been longer is well. Although, I too suspect that it must have been a budgeting issue. That cinematography was too gorgeous for words. I wish we could go back to TV seasons being 13 episodes again. That number was perfect for me. My favorite EPs were 8 and 3 respectively. I think they did the best they could with what they had and I'm eager to see more
A lot of this got shot where I live in Calgary Canada it was cool to see !
I also felt like, while the individual episodes were strong, the journey felt a bit compressed. Fast travel from Boston to Kansas City and then from Kansas City to Wyoming. I think that while the flashback to Ellie's birth did provide us some nice things (fleshing out Marlene's character and her relationship to Ellie, providing a beautiful bit of casting in Ellie's original voice actor serving as her mother in the show, etc.), it ended up hurting the ending by trying to explain too much about Ellie's immunity. I think it's much stronger if we just know she has this immunity and the process of trying to operate and replicate will kill her. Instead, we're given enough information to make their plan seem questionable and make the necessity of killing Ellie more questionable.
Maybe I didn't follow the explanation well enough, but what they described made it sound like the cordyceps in her wasn't modified, nor was her immune system modified, but rather growing up together, they had developed a symbiotic relationship, where the cordyceps identified her as fellow cordyceps/infected to other specimens. This makes the idea of harvesting and taking samples from the fungus in her brain more questionable. It seems like there is a (barely) replicable process - not a unique mutation in Ellie or her cordyceps.
Whether I understand correctly or not, they just gave me too much information for me to take their necessary premises for defining Joel's failed moral dilemma at face value.
Mostly agree with you! Love your content. I think 12 episodes might have been too many. 10 would have been perfect. I say this only because I know some people who aren't fans of the game who were getting annoyed by what they were calling "filler" episodes. I think we are so conditioned by streaming and binge watching to fly through a show quickly and have moved away from enjoying a show for what it is and allowing each episode to sit with us for a solid week.
I totally agree with your thoughts on the last episode, we needed more time to explore these threads! I actually found that it messed with the tone and chemistry between Joel and Ellie, and it almost feels like it's hinting at Joel being the "final boss" like his love for her is another monster brewing. Which in a way true but I don't know if it was intentional, and it feels too soon for that shift regardless. His opening up about his daughter and suicide attempt almost feel more like a mental break because it was too rushed.
I absolutely agree with what u said abt the last episode. The entire thing was like a constant "Oh this is nice, oh we're doing this now? Okay, Ig this is nice too... oh now we're onto that already?"
it just couldn't breathe imo
Really solid adaptation. Not the best thing in the world, but quite enjoyable experience.
So I actually agree on the point that the choice is as black and white as save humanity vs. save Ellie. The fireflies are nowhere near organized enough/experienced enough to reliably conjure a cure for something that we in modern times still do not have a cure for. As far as Joel is concerned it may have been the choice he made but knowing what we as an outside audience know I wouldn't say it as Humanity or Ellie.
I feel this is just one interpretation of what happened among many, because even if the fireflies had the ability to make the cure and get distributed, would that fact alone be enough to stop Joel? Honestly I doubt it, but I 100% see where your coming from
I loved the series and you did a great job with review. While you mention the similarities between the game/show and credit the actors by name
I was surprised you didn't have a comment about Troy Baker.
For the bloater, it actually does make sense to have one since fungus physically spreads and we've seen how the infected clump together at roots. And this was an anthill of clickers that are already overly infected coming from underground where they likely clump together even more. It's understandable if the fungus builds on one even more.
This series needed 2 more hours, action could be better, and more focus on Ellie and Joel’s relationship. It felt too episodic, like who’s going to die today? Idk solid 7/8
after all that you give it 7/8. it’s a 5 and that’s generous
@@paulwoodford1984 I’ve only mentioned the bad parts, there are a lot of good parts
Really enjoyed the season as a whole. I wanted either 1 more episode or a longer finale, though. Just felt like a sprint to the finish with the 43 minute run time.
Other nitpicks : 1) would have LOVED a continuous shot (Children of Men-esque) of Joel rescuing Ellie. It just felt like ripe material to utilize in that manner - maybe directors feel like it's been done before so they shy away from it but man, as a viewer I find it SO fun and it feels like it elevates the tension. I wanted the final episode to have a longer draw on the tension-factor.
2) People all said it - but more infected sprinkled in would have been nice. I definitely understand why it might be difficult to work them in from time to time without it feeling forced but essentially anytime you enter a city there should be infected somewhere and I think, if done correctly, it would have been a nice upgrade to the show.
3) I wanted more screen time. There were a handful of episodes that felt so short. I was stunned that the finale was one of those - I wanted to feel more tension through that episode. Especially considering that the show opened with a flashback to the birth of Ellie. Someone pointed out that this decision was actually problematic for the story as well and now I am kind of shook. Slight misstep in allowing Marlene to be able to figure out how Ellie is immune.
Edit : 9/10 season. Pedro Pascal is a damn gem. Bella did a great job. Appreciated the care they took with this adaptation. Episode 2 remains my favorite.
I totally agree with you with the 12 episodes, for the final episode, I think the show should have build more so when put in the balance of "save Ellie or make the vaccine" both cases are closer and not so one sided
5:12 I had the same exact problem with that flashback. It was unnecessary. We knew exactly what Joel was thinking at that moment and I think the scene would’ve been way better without it
I think the reason they rush the ending, is because the more you analyze it the more obvious it is there is 0 chance that fireflies, shown as incompetent many times in both the game and show, would actually be able to cure mankind by killing Ellie(which killing the one immune person hours after getting is mindboggling in and of iteself). Which kind of steals the morale question they were tryin to pose out from under them.
May I say, I actually love that you use the phrase "this is a preference thing" because some reviewers will treat their "view" as gospel not acknowledging someone else could have liked something they disliked. Or they treat such a view as "wrong" if it doesn't align with their view. I wish more reviewers would acknowledge moments that are more wrestling with a preference than some sin of storytelling.
Fun fact: I don't believe Joel actually has military experience, the truck at the beginning with the Desert Storm Veteran sticker on it is Tommy's I think, and Joel actively shows disdain in episode 4 for the fact that Tommy enlisted.
Regarding the length, I actually think just adding twenty minutes to the final episode would probably have fixed those pacing issues. I don't know if you can add much more after the hospital slaughter because the pinnacle of the conflict is already gone and the source material is also extremely brief after Joel escapes with Ellie. 20 extra minutes of runtime in episode 9 would have smoothed out that pacing though. Just my thoughts.
I don't think it needed 12 episodes. one episode more would'Ve been sufficient I think. end ep9 when joel and ellie are attacked, then last episode for the shooting and aftermath
Thank you for sharing. I think it would have been nice to have some more time this season as well as some more infected. I dont agree with a 7/10 this season. This season deserves at least an 8/10. The show is amazing. I also disagree with your rating of episode 7. That episode is great and the chemistry between Ellie and Riley works.
As for Joel's decision at the end, Joel killed people to save his daughter's life. He is also tramatized by the loss of his original daughter.
That being said, I find it hard to think he "did the right thing" if he let her die. It's also hard to say whether the Fireflies would have even gotten a cure from Ellie since they "think" it can be used as a cure. (that is what is said in the game and the show - they "think") The Fireflies are also killers who probably wont even offer the cure to the world and keep it to themselves/be selfish. Also, they didnt even give Ellie a choice.
Now with that being said, the back and forth discussion around the ending and what is right and what is wrong is part of what makes it so interesting.
As someone who has never played the game and had no idea of the story, I loved the season, and while the last episode could have taken its time more, it felt absolutely shocking and impactfull. Having it end with the closeup of Ellie really got her doubt across and helped solidify the impact of the massacre. The closeup of the dead doctor was particularly horrifying. I actually felt like this could have been 8 episodes because for me, episode 7 was just filler that added nothing to the story. I loved every other episode, but that one just didn't need to be there IMO. Oh, and one little detail I loved was Joel's brother's reaction when Joel says they're communists. "It's not like that." Such a classic American reaction that rang true to me. Great show!
Last of us? Truly groundbreaking. Will be taught in film schools in a hundred years.
I have been thinking about this for a little while though and... I actually think BOTH groups were wrong. The Fireflies should have had a discussion with Ellie and tell her the risks of the surgery and outcome... She WILL die and it might not work. While Ellie is a child in our world... in that setting and what she has already gone through she is more mature then many young adults in our world are. She should have been allowed to make the choice AND Joel should respect her decision. I do think ultimately she would have chosen to sacrafice herself but not only did Joel kill the hope of humanity finding a cure but stole that decision from Ellie because he couldnt bear to lose a child yet again.
Looks like there's no Berserk video this week
BUT i'm looking forward to Cyberpunk Sci-Fi Manga Blame! video 👍
Agreed on pretty much everything. Could have used a little more time with the characters, especially on the back end. Pacing is really hard to nail. The ultimate fine line. In general show runners seem to error on the side of faster
My problem with the show was the lack of infected. Was a cure really even necessary? They traveled across the country and only encountered infected twice.
Joel: [Kills humanity’s last chance at a vaccine by murdering every soldier in the building in cold blood]
News Outlets: “DiD jOeL dO ThE rIgHt ThInG?!”
For his sanity, yes XD
What would it change? One side is immune (Fireflies) and has the ability to subjugate the other side (FEDRA)? Great.
Joel know people better, fireflies with cure just gonna be another dictatorship, they won't share the cure to all people they gonna use as bargain power. Noone can save the world, might as well Joel save who's he can save, just like Tess said in her last moment also in line with message from Bill, to protect his purpose which is ellie.
It's more morally grey in the game given how dubious the Fireflies are presented; they've already killed multiple children trying to find a cure to no success, are hostile to Joel despite all he's done for them, they take his gear and don't let Ellie make the choice just sedate her. Even if it worked there's no guarantee that would be a positive for humanity, the fireflies are selfish and violent they already blew up a government building at the start of the story. It's likely they'd hoard the cure and use it to secure dominance over other communities I can see them becoming new-world tyrants with that power.
The show just plays sad music, because "Joel bad"
Yes he did 😀. I mean not really but there was no right thing for him to do.
Never played the game and they have done a great job on season 1, I see lots of awards in their future
I agree. I really wanted an extra episode or 3.
Revealing the means by which Ellie was made immune entirely breaks the narrative. Marlene Knowing the origins of her immunity gives rise to the possibility of synthesizing a cure. As soon as she found out about the immunity she have drawn the logical conclusion that Ellie‘s mom lied to her about cutting the cord first. Not only does this mean we can go find a bunch of pregnant women to do other research, knowing this means that the more prudent course of action is to keep her alive to use for comparison research; test the possibility that the immunity is now hereditary, replicate the process using her stem cells, etc. etc. The only reason killing her was justified in the game was because we had absolutely no idea how she was made immune. This also notifies the level of monstrous selfishness inherent in Joel’s decision to kill everyone and lie to her; as it can be argued, they are only killing her out of impatience, rather than necessity.
I kind of hope the second season is going to be longer, because there is actually a lot more happening, that you also see from more than one view. Really exited for the cast announcement
They have said that the second game will be told over two or more seasons.
@@dgmilloway I believe they'll tell the story of the 5 year time jump. Or at least I hope that's the direction they're going. They can't end things with Joel so quickly.
@@sericsson1996 I think that's a good idea, but I think the show runners have come out and said that they only intend to adapt the games.
Hot take: cannibalism of already dead bodies in a post aplotyptic world makes sense. You got to do what you got to do.
Idk about feeding a kid their own dad tho...
I think the insinuation is that they kill and eat anyone they come across
Couldn't agree more. That last episode felt way too rushed. Everything episode leading to 9 had fine pacing, and even gave us a chance to sit back and stew with our own emotions. Looking forward to season two!
The "military guy" that gets torn apart by the bloater (the big infected) is Tommy's actor from the game, Jeffrey Pierce, btw 😅
I liked how you focused on David when discussing episode 8, because from what I saw on the internet, the actor's performance was overlooked a lot in the shadow of Troy Baker (game's Joel) playing James (David's right hand man). That was obviously very cool, but David's actor did such a good job and deserves more recognition for that.
Yes! Anna Torv is an amazing actress! Love her so much!
if you like nick offerman in a serious role please watch devs. its a show made by alex garland wo directed ex machina and anahilation and who basically directed dredd. its a realy good sci fi show
I know it's too late to do anything about it now, but Joel isn't ex-military. Tommy joined and flamed out of the army, the sticker was on Tommy's truck. Joel even tells Ellie this in episode 4 I think, he says that Tommy is a "joiner" and that's why he joined in the first place.
You give the general viewing audience WAY too much credit. The general viewing public needs the narrative spoon fed to them. Makes things redundant or heavy handed to those who pay more attention.
I don’t think the flashback scene was that poor of a decision. Feels like Daniel’s just very anti-flashback and so it didn’t resonate with him. I thought it worked and didn’t think twice about it until seeing the internet talk about it.
I would've really liked to see at least 1 additional episode. I think the best thing to do probably would've been to extend the Henry/Sam section - give us a little more time with those characters, maybe fight off a few infected along the way. I also would have extended the finale to include the infected encounter in the tunnel - doing this would've re-established the infected, so the audience feels like they are a more immediate threat. Aside from that, the show is an emotional roller coaster, and at 9 episodes, it's all killer and no filler at all. Even the flashback episodes that some are calling filler, are actually important to the messaging in the show.
I love the show but since I already knew the story it was ep 3 the one that got me to tears of sadness and happiness for them. the sarah scene was good but the whole episode 3 got my throat berserk trying to hold up the crying
I never played the games but i so emotionally invested in these characters.
Yay Hyperion! One of my favorite books too.
Never clicked a video so fast!
I agree that episode 7 felt like the weakest for all of the reasons you mentioned. That being said, the set design for the mall was fantastic and it was probably my favorite set from the whole season. I think this episode should’ve been released as a special somewhere between season 1 and 2. That way we could’ve freed up an episode to further develop Ellie and Joel’s relationship.
I agree with most of your points about how Drukman and Mazin needed more episodes to properly tell this story of the first TLOU game. My least favorite episode was 7, despite liking Riley and Ellie.
Although I love Melanie Lynsky in Yellow Jackets and other various movies/shows, I think it was one of the weaker performances in season 1.
I also thought Riley's actress did a great job. I totally bought the chemistry between Riley and Ellie, and was surprised to hear you didn't think they had chemistry. I felt their emotions and even cried in the episode (which is hard for me to do).
I disagree about the overall score, though. I think the show is easily an 8.5 or 9. My biggest issue with the show was there wasn't a strong sense of danger in the world of the show (more infected and human threats needed as well as some longer action sequences).
You gotta remember the vast population that are watching these things need that "DO YOU GET IT?" type scene to make them feel good about getting it. I learned this by discussing shows with my parents and work colleagues..
Since I don't have HBOMax and I don't like too much suspense and gore in film (I can handle games to a little higher extent; I beat the original game), I enjoyed hearing this complete walkthrough of the series.
The biggest issue I had was near the end of ep 7. Like Tommy makes it sound like their journey is going to be full of danger but then they end up there with like no problem. Like have them get attacked by raiders or a random zombie. Then add an extra ep that focuses on them getting to the school, learning why the fireflies left, maybe fight a zombie monkey, then getting attacked by the raiders and having that ending scene. Otherwise, why hype up the danger so much and have nothing happen? But yeah, I loved the season, but it wouldn't have hurt to have more eps. Hopefully season 2 they'll be able to take more time exploring the world etc. I did like that Joel was his most violent when Ellie wasn't with him (minus that scene where he punches that guard to death), and I did buy he just checked out, he wasn't thinking enough for a flashback just enough to come up with a plan/(give into his instincts) for his murder spree. Plus, rather than seeing Ellie as his daughter, the lack of flashback felt more like he was seeing Ellie as herself and not Sarah, but I could be reading too much into it lol. Again, the ep felt unnecessarily short, but the scenes from Joel snapping onwards really worked for me.
I loved almost everything about the show. I loved how some scenes were almost beat for beat recreations of the best moments of the game, but there were also enough changes to keep me invested. Episode 3 was just amazing. Episode 7 was admittedly pretty weak, but I was never the biggest fan of the Left Behind DLC it’s based on, so my expectations weren’t super high. It would have been great to have one additional episode between 8 and 9 to really build up Joel and Ellie’s bond and maybe get a chance to put some more infected in the series. And as great as it was to have Ashley Johnson in the show as Ellie’s mother… it just wasn’t necessary to have any of that there. My biggest issue with the whole show was the explanation for Ellie to be immune. Her immunity didn’t need an explanation, especially such a bad one.
I still loved it, though. I thought the ending was great, I always thought it was brilliant how that game ended so abruptly and with such uncertainty about what Ellie believed. I’m really looking forward to seeing how they’ll adapt part 2.
9/10 for me. I loved every episode, and I thought Pedro & Bella were PERFECT.
I'm actually really surprised that you did not at all buy the chemistry between Elllie & Riley. While the initial meet in the room didn't do it, as soon as we were out the window I told bought in. It not only seemed true, but obvious to me. Don't get me wrong, still one if the weaker episodes (I think 4 & 9 are the weakest), but very much enjoyed this one and loved their chemistry and relationship.
Don't think I disagree with you too much. Doing critical analysis is part of your job and your amazingly good at it. I thunk the only thing is the Left behind episode. Most of the gamers saw it as fantastic nostalgia. I couldn't see any bad acting or chemistry myself but as you say it's all personal preference. Yeah last episode too short and of course Joel 's perspective is the one we've been sold the most. I think in our safe environment critical thinking is supposed to be king . Our way to factual enlightenment but we can very rarely live up to it. Especially in there apocalyptic world. What's going on in the inside is the one that's going to win out. Thanks very much for your insights. Can't wait for season 2 now. I think you can get at least 2 seasons out of LOU2 with that kind of pacing.
Also, my husband and I had the conversation of "what would we do if we were on Joel's shoes?" and I am basically the monster as he would sacrifice our imaginary child for the sake of the world