Creating a soundstage in a small room
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- Not all of us are blessed with a big room from which to play our stereo systems. What can one do with a small room to get that magical depth of soundstage? Paul walks us through.
- Věda a technologie
Thanks, Paul, for tipping us about how to develop a soundstage for those of us who have smaller rooms.😘
You tricking your ears brain you want to lower the mid-high range can be done with the eq
In my cramped little multipurpose music room I found that every inch of distance from the front wall improved the depth and overall sound stage. It was also important to maintain a near equilateral triangle of seating position and speaker placement. This will vary some with speakers of different design. My large horn speakers aren't quite as effected with placement as my 3 way tweeter speakers. I love them both for different reasons so I use them both, sometimes even simultaneously. I have a central equipment rack which defies some conventional wisdom but the front wall is heavy curtains. I've reached exactly what I want and honestly I can hardly believe it. This is has been achieved largely due to you, Paul, and your stimulating my desire for better sound after years of audio apathy. Now I have a system that creates every detail and nuance even at low to moderate spl. So yes, a small room can work very well.
That is such a great question because most people in the UK, like myself, or even Europe at least, live in much smaller houses than in US. My speakers are less than 10 inches from the wall behind them. So helpfully advise 👍
Lots of us live in apartments too!
Love always,
America
@@WeeWeeJumbo hehe I was watching some young couple from Georgia, on YT. They just got their first appointment and were saying it was so small. LOL, it was like the size of a high end apartment here. One of their closets (houses don't really have them in the UK) was the size of my kitchen area. If you're main living area is less than a 10x14, I'll apologise lol.
Great advice, just found your channel and you have been teaching me quite a lot over these past days about acoustics, pa systems and home studios. I rearranged things in my little studio so as to implement these changes and man were you right! I get that wall of sound simply because I added acoustic treatment to the wall behind the speakers, placed them in the equilateral triangle (the sound is so creamy now) and added some bass traps. Its sounding better and better each day and my recording skills are improving 10 fold. Thanks!
Excellent! Great advice for those of us who with small room stereo!
I was just looking into this yesterday, how timely! Thank you Paul for another great video
Linn Space Optimization was my answer. 13x10 room, Wilson Audio Sabrina X, Linn Selekt with amp with SO adjusted to the room.
Great advice! Thank you Paul
In Pro audio studios they do the opposite what Paul says. The "dead end" should be behind the loudspeakers & the "live end" behind you. I use the Pro principal also. It works by using absorbents behind the speakers & diffusers behind the listen position, unless the room is small, then uses absorbents there also. Diffusers requires more distance to your ears to work properly.
I never use bi-polar & di-polar speakers, they should have some "live end" behind too.
this. i have golden ear triton 3+ in a smallish living room/HT room. ive treated my front, back walls and celling with diy acoustic panels and professional bass traps floor to ceiling in the corners. huge difference, with going diy on part of the room, overall cost was about $800. Then i use a minidsp streamer for dirac room correction, another $750. With those in place, the sound is huge, defined and tight. dont be afraid to spend more on your room (or room correction) than on ANOTHER amp chasing that mythical nirvana.
I enjoy these ampside chats with Uncle Stereo
There is also the "near-field" setup. My Elac Unifi UB5s don't fit the decor in my large 4K TV room, but in my desktop "near-field" setup (with a SMSL DAC and SMSL int amp), they are sooooo good!
Always bang on the money! Cambridge is home to Prism Sound and Masalec. I have enjoyed a treated room for many years allthough it's primary role is recording, mixing etc. It seems to be a common theme in home hifi that there is no consideration for the biggest speaker in the room wich offcourse in my opinion is the room. 👍👍
Speaker design is the key, and more “correct” when understanding speaker position, as rooms and unviroment is so different from place to place. So if u have a small room, then look for which kind of design is preferable? Some speakers are in fact designed to get up against the wall (5-15 cm).
Michael's room sounds like my room. I have one whole wall stacked with vinyl LPs and the other wall is stacked with CDs and RtoR tapes. It does a great job of negating standing waves within the room.
It’s actually a very complicated process. In some cases you need to absorb, in others to reflect, and is still more others to diffuse.
@@Fluterra I know, I've worked as a recording and mastering engineer for over 40 years.
Hi Paul, I have Dynaudio Contour 60i speakers and have great depth. They are anything but flat. They are about 12 inches from the front wall with very heavy drapes behind them. It seems that drapes are a very good diffuser.
Thanks Paul for another great video. I also have a small listening room which, to add to the woes, has a chimney breast between the speakers. I have managed to obtain stunning "virtual" depth by using a small full range speaker design (Using Ted Jordan's Eikona drivers). These speakers fire across the wall and use reflective property of the wall between the speakers to create the illusion of space behind the speakers. This can create a "conflict of the senses" as the brain usually correlates what one hears to what what one sees (Close your eyes and the perception of depth is often enhanced) . A lot of the illusion of depth is more about the radiation pattern of the driver, how the sound waves reach the ear (Direct or reflective) and how that driver is implemented in a design. A mixture of different drivers and complex crossovers seem to kill perceived depth...or create a speaker that is both fussy about where it is positioned in a room and the load requirements of the amplifier.
how can i fix the imaging and staging in a room that I cant place the speaker in the center? It's a small house where it stacked living room and kitchen, so the speaker placement will not be in the middle. My right speaker is closer to the right wall, meanwhile my left speaker is far away from left wall. The front wall is already being fixed with 16cm to 20cm away from it, so no problem with that.
yes I've notices with a bit more volume and best source I have CD ( well engineered) brings the sound stage alive. I agree with Paul, the speakers need to be the best you can find or afford. So much of todays speakers and price point leave me wonder how can something so expensive sound terrible. RMAF has clearly shown me this aspect.
Any one have recommendations for what should be used for the diffusers to be placed behind the speakers as Paul suggests?
Regards & thanks, Peter
bongs.
In a small room position the speakers in front across the corners, pointing towards the center of the room.
So absorbers behind you and defusers behind your speakers?
Well designed horns can be the best in small rooms, since they don’t reflect sound off side and back walls.
Example?
@@Ken-vv3os Klipsch Heresy.
@@BartholomewSmutz what about triangle borea br03, are they horns?
@@Ken-vv3os I have no idea I'm familiar with the Klipsch heresy because that's what I have. My Klipsch Heresy are they older ones Klipsch heresy ones from the 1980s. They seem to work quite well in a smaller room. Horn Tweeter and Horn midrange.
What about the horns vs any other speakers allows them to reflect off side and back walls?
does every kind of music have to play behind the speakers? I listen to heavy metal and I like it, the musicians are present in my room, and I can feel the kick drums on my face, is the sound behind the speakers not also due to the production industry in the recording studio??
A pair of stereo speakers can be mounted to a wall and the listeners can perceive soundstage behind the wall. The remaining problems are good tonal balance and bass reproduction from the whole system.
Paul, Sounds like you where eluding to a dip in the mid-range frequencies that are most apparent to our ears. ie: voices will tend to sound forward on a flat speaker. By lowering those frequencies it would lower the amplitude but not so much as to change the tonality of the sound will pull the voices back.
Can you discuss excursion Displacement like ATC woofers ?
I think Chris would be better at tackling technical speaker stuff like that
I get my breathing space in small rooms when I'm stoned. Nirvana.!!!
I wonder how much absorption does a IKEA Kalax full of records gives compared to let,s say a 2 x 4 four inch thick rock wool broadband absorber panel?
For what it’s worth, I have an IKEA 5x5 case behind me, mostly full of books and reference materials, a few spaces more open with art objects. It works great.
How about Michael's F. Electronics I'm sure that has something to do with the Soundstage.
And his Wilson XVX’s are 33 inches deep, so the mid ranges and tweeter aren’t close to the rear wall.
Is MQA is better than DSD? Plzz answer this question ur way of explaining is awesome 🔥
MQA is a PCM based format, partially compressed. DSD is superior as it has more data per second and does not need digital reconstruction filters as PCM.
Just buy Audio Note speakers and gear, push them against the wall and the wall will disappear!
TRY this! Give the speakers extreme toe in, where the focal point will be 2 or 3 feet in front of your mlp.
What's a mlp?
Is having a long room better than having a dead back?
@2:23 "...and he (Fremer) has great depth."
Have you been to Michael's house? Have you listened to his Wilson Alexx speakers?
Paul, I would love to hear your IRS speakers. But I live in NJ, and cannot make the trip.
But Michael lives in NJ (as far as I know). Would you know if he would let this critical listener audition his stereo?
I know no one, personally, that has such exotic equipment, other than Audio Connection's Vandersteen System Nine, which I have heard many times, when Richard Vandersteen was a guest, when Jim White (Aesthetix) was a guest, when Garth Leerer (Musical Surroundings) was a guest, and when I purchased my stereo (and endless upgrades) from them. But that is the only high-end stereo I have ever heard. I am unable to ever hear any other truly high-end systems.
I feel awkward asking for an invitation (Michael does not know me -- but he knows people that know me: John and Nick and Greg, from Audio Connection in Verona, NJ).
Michael meets people that do not believe in high-end equipment, or they trash-talk vinyl, etc, and he brings them to his home (he has videos where he tells these stories). So people that have little to no interest in his stereo have heard it. And here I am drooling over the chance to hear it, and can not. Maybe you can tell him that this audio enthusiast thinks vinyl sucks (kidding, of course), and he will tell you to send me over?
This is why I am not-so-subtly asking for how to invite my virus-free, vaccinated self to hear Michael's stereo. I have no idea how to contact Michael.
Cheers!
(by the way, I use "Perhaps", because it is a login for an on-line game that I play (www.warzone.com/), where I post links to youtube videos of mine. If I ever e-mail you or call you, I will use my real name)
By the way, #2:
I have some seriously great vinyl pressings and some seriously great sounding .flac files, which I think will impress even Michael. They are chart topping, hit vinyl albums that are in a league of their own, in terms of sound quality.
I would share Michael's contact information but your level of grandiosity is much too extreme. There is no doubt in my mind that a visit from you would not be enjoyable for him in any way.
@@digggerrjones7345 You would not share Michael's contact information with anyone, because you do not have Michael's contact information.
Michael does not know that you exist.
You took my comment as an opportunity to troll for attention.
With that said, I will not feed the troll (that's you) any further. Reply with anything you want. You will be talking to the hand.
At least you live near him, so maybe there's a chance. I live in rural WV. No audio stores here & never really were,& no one is really into it either. I'm somewhat into it; I'd love to hear those systems just once. But I'm not a big fan of most of the music "audiophiles" typically enjoy. I love rock, metal, punk, & a lot of what I like it DIY music so it wouldn't sound too much different on a $1,000 system or a $50,000 system probably. Well, different but probably not better. Either way I like the sound. I like how it sometimes isn't perfect; far from it. & all the other things that make it different...a lot of it sounds like it does intentionally too. Most audiophiles would probably hate it, whine about how this or that is mixed...or whatever. But that's their own loss... They're the ones missing out on some great music if they only like stuff that's recorded, mixed & mastered a certain way. I don't even know how I got into rambling about that; that's not what I was originally gonna say 😂😂😂
@@jesusgavemeaids "...But I'm not a big fan of most of the music "audiophiles" typically enjoy. I love rock, metal, punk..."
If you enjoy this hobby, then you are an audiophile, regardless of what genre of music you like most.
Audiophiles have a reputation for listening to Tinkerbell music, most of which few people recognize, because in high-end stores and at high-end shows, they play that stuff. Why? Because they cherry pick the best sounding songs, even if those songs make no emotional connection to nearly all of the listeners.
Nearly all popular music is recorded only decently (sound quality wise). Most releases sound between suck and pretty good. Nearly none of popular songs sound truly amazing. So the dearth of such hit songs, that also are recorded correctly, is why the stores and the shows play that other stuff, which results in the audiophile = Tinkerbell music reputation.
I have spent a few years hunting down great sounding hit songs. They are hard to find. But they do exist.
I have brought them to my local high-end store, and they were killer good. But this took a lot of time and effort to find these songs, and all of these vendors are not putting in the time to find these songs.
For vinyl, I have spent more than I care to reveal, on White Hot Stampers, at this site:
www.better-records.com
Nearly every album that I purchased from them was fantastic.
They play both sides of every album that they have on their site. They listen for sound quality, and they price their albums accordingly. Most of what they purchase never goes for sale on their site, because they have minimum sound quality standards. They sell only the pressings that are a cut above the rest. Or they will not sell certain albums, because the entire run sucks: Meatloaf's Bat Out Of Hell is one such example. Zero great sounding copies exist.
I was able to indulge myself with those expensive albums, because I had a respectable income. But my company closed my site, and now those days of indulging myself are history.
I also purchased copy upon copy of the same album, hoping to eventually land a great sounding pressing. Most of the time it would pay off. But I would sometimes purchase 10+ copies of the same album, to finally land a great one (and I had an idea of which stamper codes to avoid and which stamper codes to seek out). Without some insight into stamper codes, it is completely potluck. I did this for albums that www.better-records.com would not offer (I asked, and they declined). They seek out only the type of music that they like.
So there are great sounding Rock, Pop, etc, albums to be had, on both vinyl and digital. Finding them is a chore, and often expensive. And often only one side of a pressing sounds great, resulting in buying more of that same album, to land a great sounding other side. And sometimes there is a song on an album that simply sounds lousy everywhere, even though other songs on the album sound very good.
The studios are reckless with their quality control.
If you want a great sounding Beatles Magical Mystery Tour, then you must purchase a German pressing to have a chance of great sound quality. Yet, for other Beatles titles, you would not want the German pressing. It is maddening!
I estimate that 90% of what record companies release is between poor sounding to good sounding.
Only 8% have very good sound quality.
Only 1% or 2% have exceptionally great sound quality.
Sadly, poor sounding releases are the rule with recording companies, and great sounding releases are the exception with recording companies. But since they sell nearly exclusively to people that do not care about sound quality, they get away with their crappy sounding releases. And this results in mystery Tinkerbell music being played at high-end shows.
Cheers!
Trade in the Meridians for ProAc DB1's or SC1's
Or Mission 751's which you can pick up about a hundred bucks as you Yanks put it.
How do diffusers give it space?
By scattering the sound. The room sounds bigger, sort of. But they need space, they don't work if you listen too close, depending on the frequency.
@@hqsound5582 thanks
For bass they are not practical, because they must then be way too big. So you use absorbents for bass instead.
Thanks Paul, I love all of your hundreds of videos lol. You truly do an impressive amount of content. Regarding the topic, I assumed perhaps incorrectly that if your front speakers were against the wall you'd want thick absorption panels behind the front speakers to absorb 'boominess'. Then diffusers on your back wall behind you. I should flip this idea?
MOVE IT!!! Can you imagine how slow this guy will be a year from now?
Cross-talk cancellation will make the walls "disappear".
I have some Sony XM3 headphones and sound great. But then I saw reviews on youtube about the Focal Elegia reference headphones, 'The difference between the Sony's and the Focals is vast not even close' So I bought some... I must have missed something because the Sony's blow them out the water... My point being never listen to audiophiles!
This is called buying headphones~ this is why in Asian countries personal audio products like enthusiast iems and headphones are so much more popular because real estate is so limited
Yes, but are there any headphones that really have the soundstage of a decent speaker setup? I don’t think so, honesty. Headphone’s are great in detail retrieval, less much so in creating a convincing soundstage. The reason for this is partially because there’s no crosstalk on headphones.
Sonics aside, the headphone experience is undesirable in many different ways; I gather that many enthusiasts avoid this solution by default
But you will probably not get that done using the meridian speakers.
my speakers are like 5 inches even less mabye from front wall
You need to pull your speakers a minimum of 3 feet from the front wall to get any kind of meaningful sound stage. The only speakers that can work close to the front wall are designed to do that. The Kii Three and the Durch & Dutch 8C studio monitors can be put right next to the front wall. However, all other conventional speakers need to be pulled away from the wall.
so, the aim is to hear weaker wall echoes ..
Try getting soundstage in a car 😀
It’s a challenge that requires a lot of technical skills with hardware equipment.
Tesla has a done a good job on that.
I believe you need a lot of dsp in a car. Would be hard to achieve it without dsp.
Pontificating tool....
Acoustic…. Smaller the room the more acoustics treatment is needed. Diffusion is key here…
well michael has a ALEXX speakers. None of us can afford.
diy is way better an cheaper Audio Science Review tested the sprout its not that good for some much money 200$ amps beat it in every way, dont get it twisted i love watching paul but he gives good info not sure why people dont use it tho? like his new speakers yes pretty but drivers maybe 30-100$ max a driver but want 20-30k its crazy
LETS GO BRANDON!!
“I won’t go there”…..too late lol
Analog planet
Get yourself a 31-band x2 dbx graphic equaliser and an expander
Yes you can use natural wool fleeces is the best half an inch thick fold it up 3 times or 4 times, place it between the speakers and the top of the ceiling about 2 ft
You can get 9 by 6 sheets I think there's bigger
So advocating inaccurate speakers, from a guy selling "Noise harvester" Fremer listens in his basement, and Fremer has what looks like a hoarder's paradise...and his ears are obviously defective, it's NOT a huge room, it's the basement