Glitch World In Commodore 64 Ninja
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- We take a look at Mastertronic's Ninja for the Commodore 64 which has a "glitch world" much more interesting than Super Mario Bros' famous "Minus World". First we show how to enter Glitch World without any hacking, and then we use the Super Snapshot machine language monitor to dig deeper into the game's level data structures. Thanks to my patron Paul Pridham (aka Madgarden, developer of Death Road to Canada) for this suggestion!
Links:
Vesa Vanhatupa's video about walking through walls in Ninja: • Ninja (C64) : Walking ...
Super Mario Bros. "Minus World" explanation: • Why the Minus World Gl...
Become a patron: / 8bitshowandtell
One-time donation: paypal.me/8BitShowAndTell
Ending music is the unreleased "Learn The Nybbles" by Bedford Level Experiment: bedfordlevelexperiment.bandca...
Index:
0:00 Intro: About Ninja
2:24 How to enter "Glitch World"
7:20 A bit of explanation
8:35 Room warp hack
12:13 Exploring Glitch World
15:30 Walking forward through walls
17:59 Hacking game map in ML monitor
24:26 Examining some game code disassembly
33:13 Thanks to my patrons!
To warp to Akuma's Chamber:
:A3CA FF (to face ninja left)
:64 14 (room number = 20)
:A3C7 5 (floor number = 5, not completely necessary but glitch world will behave differently if on wrong floor)
G AA25 (enter room)
#Ninja #Glitch - Věda a technologie
As a kid I went through the wall, no one believed me, and I didn't know how to reproduce it. Two years ago I finally figured out how to trigger the glitch on purpose. Ninja is still one of my favorite C64 games. Your explanations are amazing. Thank you so much!
other youtube videos i classify as "talking head", this channel is the only one i classify as "talking hand"
🤣 you are totally right!
Just needs some googly eyes.
I'm 120% sure he's literally just a floating pair or hands
AvE is talking "hands"
What about Ashens?
My brother found the glitch by accident one time when we were kids. Now I finally know how it happened.
I've heard it was kind of legendary, some kids would manage to get in but not know how to replicate, and they'd tell their friends at school and no one would believe them :)
Ninja is the best "budget" title I ever bought.
Same here. A friend gave it to me, and I played it a ton back in the day.
I love how the Il Ninja is constantly taking his shirt on an off.
I wish the guys who originally made the game had put as much effort into it as you did investigating this glitch. Great video, thanks.
I know... what a missed opportunity. It could have easily been a decent game.
c64 version of Ninja has more than 1 bug
This reminds me of a CZcams channel called "Boundary Break" which uses hacks that allow the guy to explore outside the normal boundaries of a game into areas we were never meant to see. Like you, by doing this it reveals various methods the developer uses in game design and it's quite fascinating, especially with larger 3D games. But this is also interesting the way you done it with an older 2D game.
okay you made me giggle blending in with the other Ninja... "secret huh.. like a Ninja!"
you're wholesome and awesome, Robin.
I love your vids. I bought my first 64 in 82 and love watching you explain a lot of things that I never had the patience or knowledge how to explore!
As the game becomes more glitchy in the minus worlds, you could name it the “MTV Room”!
By the way, I have been through that rear back door in the game, it’s actually a kitchen area. The kitchen includes a drive-thru window when someone orders chicken stir fry to go! It’s called “Kung Fu Drive Thru You!”
That’s how the bad guys earn money to make their rooms so fancy and glitchy! Great video!
Viewer: I just watched your video. I know coding and Kung Fu.
Robin(Morpheus): Show me!
(Robin activates unlimited energy trainer)
Robin(Morpheus): "What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken. Understand? Then hit me…if you can."
You definitely succeeded in making this entertaining. I love seeing how this stuff is put together, especially since it's not something I have access to do myself. Keep up with the great content. :-)
I remember buying Adventure for the Atari 2600 just because it contained that awesome Warren Robinett glitch.. So yes, these types of videos are very interesting and entertaining. Thanks!
Very cool! Glitch worlds are always tons of fun.
This reminds me of something similar that happened to a game I programmed for the Genesis/Megadrive. It was a mining game. Normally, there was a limit on how deep you could go. However, I found a glitch to bypass this. The game's world was all stored in RAM, but variables, and the CPU stack were at the end of RAM. Digging down enough would cause the game to read past the level data, and start reading this variable&stack data. It was interpreted as glitchy graphics pretty much the same way as in this ninja game. The interesting part is that the player could interact with this data the same way as you could with normal level data. All sorts of crazy stuff would happen.
Fascinating video Robin. I love videos like this!
You did a great job, and I'm really glad you made this video.
Huge thanks for creating this. I remember that glitch world very well from my younger days. I loved this game. This is awesome!
Your time is appreciated, You explain very well and I at least find it entertaining. Thank you.
Its always enjoyable to watch your vids, thanks!
Thanks Robin, this really takes me back. Especially the music! Interesting glitch! :)
As always, you did succeed. It was both entertaining and explanatory :) Thanks!
Gosh, I don't guess we'll be seeing a fascinating machine like this again in the future. Thank you for your beautiful channel.
Awesome video, really enjoyed it!
Great video, I loved it - thank you! 😊
I don't understand the least 'bit' (😏) of machine language, but for some reason it is quite fascinating to watch. Thanks for making these videos!
You sir are a true hacker in the best sense of the word (i.e. Richard Stallman). Playful cleverness at its finest, combined with excellent presentation. Subscribed!
Thanks, much appreciated!
Regarding the Atari 8-bit / C64 versions being on the same side - I copied off the Atari version once. Here's how it works:
The first track and the last 20 tracks of the disk are Atari formatted so the game can be booted. You should hear the game bootup with 3 sector read beeps and the disk drive head scooting over half way and loading.
The C64 version is on tracks 1 to 19, since track 0 is Atari. The BAM and directory can be anywhere on a Commodore disk, the drive just has to find it.
Very cool. Just a couple details I'm curious about: On the 1541 there isn't a track 0, they're numbered 1-35, so do you think the C64 format starts at track 2 in 1541-speak? Also, I'm under the impression that the 1541 requires at least track 18, block 0 to be formatted to be able to find the BAM/directory.
@@8_Bit I thought that's the way it was too: Track 18 is the one and only track that actually needs to be 1541 formatted.
Man a realtime monitor/disassembler running on a second monitor would be 8-bit sweetness.
Yes, that'd be great! I could imagine the C128 doing that since it has dual video out (80 column monitor!) but it would still have some unfortunate limitations.
Have a look at C64Debugger.
Super interesting, thanks for posting.
Thank You Man
Loved this game as a child, loved this video ^~^
Please promise you're going to look into that "three versions of the game on one disk" thing later. I am DYING to know how they got the Atari and C64 versions to coexist on the same side of the disk.
I had already started on it, but then got convinced by a couple people that I need to get a flux image of the disk so I can show a visualization of it in the video. I asked around but nobody seems to have an image of it already. So I ordered a SuperCard Pro which should allow me to make the image myself (if all goes well) but unfortunately it'll probably take 2-3 weeks to arrive here in Canada, maybe longer.
Really great work! Congrats!!
Next could be explaining the "Blue Max" glitch.
Oh, I don't think I've heard of a Blue Max glitch!
@@8_Bit czcams.com/video/QigiGi5H0Ls/video.html ... It's the same with all 6502 versions.
Dope game! Was always nice to beat
Very first Atari ST game i copied in 1987 and was amazed it worked (no protection)
Very interesting!
Thanks Robin, Very interesting, the only questiion I had was why you were able to glitch through screen 21 in the first place, was that due to the programme not handling the sprite position properly?
I couldn't exactly pin-point where the bug is, but it seems the wall collision routine (which I believe is located at $B5EE) isn't called at all when this glitch happens, so the problem probably isn't in the collision detection at all, but in the logic beforehand that decides when the collision detection routine should be called. If anyone wants to dig into it further, I think the bug is somewhere around these three areas: $ad9b, $b1ee, $b20d.
I give it a 10 of 10, because it´s stuck in my memory, and it was hell of a fun to play, despite the simple design.
When I was a kid, the graphics and sound gave a certain mood, and it works well.
If you know the memory locations, you can control the matrix - that makes you the king of ninjas! :-D
That ninja is a real magician...
at some point he just starts _random casting_
:D
Paul Pridham made a glitch machine ios app years back that was awesome. :D Great guy too! :D
Yes, he's a great guy, I've had fun hanging out with him in Toronto a few times. I first met him at TPUG's "World of Commodore" back in 2008 I think?
i once glitched in what i think was named "spider", a game from the magazine "input 64" from heise, i then could run above the whole game :)
I kept waiting for you to try out one of the throwing weapons. I remember those from playing this on the Atari.
I don't use them much when I'm playing because they often get thrown back at me so it doesn't seem worth it :) But I should have shown them, as an aspect of the gameplay.
Thanks for the video - enjoyed it. It may be the programmer(s) wanted to make the map bigger and ended up scaling it down and leaving in some of the legacy checking code. Or it could be just bad code :)
Yes, it seems likely that there were bigger plans that were scaled down. For example it's strange that the map just has a single fork/branch in it (the 3rd floor has two holes in the ceiling, all the others just have one), when the code is in place to do a lot more.
How did you learn machine language so well? As a kid it was like this great mystery to me I could never figure out 😂
Missed opportunity not calling them “flippy floppy’s”
'bird on wall': Looks more like it's leaving a silhouette on the shoji.
Your vidz somehow always find something interesting to say.
Part of the trick to multiformat has to do with where the directory structure is located. (This is, for example, how on the Apple ][ a ProDOS/DOS 3.3 hybrid disk is possible, since the DOS 3.3 directory has a master sector on track 17 sector 0 and the rest can be anywhere on disk; the directory on ProDOS is in track 0.)
Hearing you nonchalantly say, "A ninja. another ninja..", reminded me of the Chuck Norris movie where he tells someone in a rather matter-of-fact manner, "I ran into some ninja last night." Like that was a common occurrence in the USA in the 1970's :)
For him, it was :-)
Reminds me of the the "Saturday Night Live" sketch where the ninjas attack the hero one at a time instead of all-at-once.
Chuck Norris appeared in the ‘C64 Ninja’ video game, but was removed by Beta Testers because every button caused him to do a roundhouse kick. When asked bout this “glitch,” Chuck Norris replied, “That’s no glitch.”
This is one of the most interesting channels I subscribe to. ☺
I love this game
Paradroid on the C64 has a similar glitch where you can exit the main level area, ending up in a glitch world.
Really cool video I have a lot of retro machines. Can you please tell me what hardware you're using in the cartridge slot and also is their anything similar for the atari 800xl. Thanks for reading
Hi, I'm using a Super Snapshot V5 cartridge, and an EX3 cartridge port expander to plug it into. The SSv5 is hard to find nowadays, but I'm told an EasyFlash3 cartridge can emulate it. I don't have one for my Atari, but I hear the Turbo-Freezer XL is similar. Here's a video about it: czcams.com/video/e7NF0jkHwkM/video.html
I know its 16 bits but when playing Judge Dredd on the real Snes almost 20 years ago, I ended up on minus world for no reason I remember. I have been trying to emulate that for years but I just gave up. Funny that the minus world had something written, like "exit here" so it means some programmers were expecting abnormalities to happen and had some sort of countermeasure. Jumping in the exit it restarted the level.
This is great to watch. How did you trace all these memory locations? Since watching your video's a few months ago, my commodore hart has been beating harder again and I've trying to program assembly on the C64 as well. I even bought a 128D when I saw one for sale. A lot of fun to spent time with these machines.
I used VICE for a lot of the initial research, because it has super-powerful breakpoints that can trigger when memory locations are written to. Usually I look for screen memory to be written to in a particular spot, such as the room names that are displayed before entering each room, or when the number of idols is updated, set a break point for that, and then study the code backwards from there.
@@8_Bit That sounds very logical, thanks for the explanation.
I wonder what would happen if the game was modified to ignore all wall collisions. Would the game eventually crash at some point when going through the glitch world?
I have got a Bubble Bobble Copy that has something similar. After Level 100 it just goes up with weird Levels until it crashes.
I have to ask: how did you deduce the location of the memory addresses that manipulate the map? Perhaps looking for the PETSCII name of each room and working backwards?
That was my first thought. I'm always stuck at where to start when opening the monitor. How do I know which areas of memory are being used to store data or maps or lives? Every game is different in some way.
Nowadays I'm lazy and use VICE :) You can set watchpoints (break) for stores to memory locations. So the general strategy is: find the screen memory location where something of interest is written, such as the number of idols. You can examine the IO registers and see where screen memory is located (starts at $5C00 in this game) then set a breakpoint for the idol count: break store 5fb2 Then grab an idol, and the monitor will enter at that moment, and you can trace the code backwards (usually) and find the idol counter. It's not always so easy, depending on how much indirection there is and the style of the programmer, but it's usually a good starting point.
Before I had the VICE monitor, I'd just hunt memory for the location in lo/hi format: H 0000 FFFF B2 5F and then investigate each occurrence of those two bytes. That's just as good in some cases, but doesn't catch things like indirect indexed writes.
nice i did this when i was kid i was like wtf how did i get to this and all my friends thought i was nuts or lying lol
How the heck did you find those memory locations and how long did it take? The value for a hole could have been anything!
Everybody gangsta' until they start approaching A:;Y= L)A:;F= LL `
This game seems like a good springboard for a shinobi port with a ram expander and more interesting levels
Glitch world looks like if Jackson Pollock made a C64 game.
Hey Robin, you should plan a book on "Writing C64 Games". Preferably without relying on PRGStudio or similar tools (so it can be followed with any OS, not only windows)
Felipe Balbi That's a great idea!
@@baardbi I would pay for a full video course with Robin :-) The guy is incredible
Felipe Balbi Me too. If you go to Udemy, there's not much competition when it comes to 6510 assembly programming. I bought a 6502 course there once. But that was all about making Atari 2600 games. Yep! Robin is awesome!
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys :) I'd certainly like to write a book like that, but I know it's a lot of work. All respect to Derek Morris for taking a shot at it with Retro Game Dev: C64 Edition.
8-Bit Show And Tell I hope you come to it at some point. :-)
which format is best ? will you be showing the 2
I'll see if I can get the PC and Atari versions working on real hardware here.
What is the name of the song at the end? I like it!
It's a song I wrote a few years ago, probably called "Learn the Nybbles". It isn't released though - I've got a bunch of songs I need to put together and get out sometime. You can find my released stuff here: bedfordlevelexperiment.bandcamp.com/
@@8_Bit It isn't released yet? I went trough all the songs on your channel and couldn't find it. Now I know why :) I really liked the song '6502'. And 'TRON song' of course. ;)
I'm now curious if "Glitch World" exists in the Atari 8-bit version, or any other version. I know I got the Atari ST version - "Ninja Mission" - to glitch one time after my friends and I had been playing it and other ST games for several hours. All of a sudden, we were able to hack off the limbs of the villains with the sword and even behead them. So that left a pile of body parts. The ST was very hot - it was a 1040STf with the built-in power supply - so I shut it down for about an hour to cool it off. I never saw that glitch ever happen again. Not that I ever played "Ninja Mission" for that long ever again either!
I tried replicating the glitch on both the Atari 8-bit and PC versions and couldn't get it to happen, at least not with the same technique. If anyone knows a trick for these versions, let us know!
8-bit ninja acid trip.
1:27 It seems that a composite C64/Atari disk would be pretty easy to make, since the 1541's home track is 18 and the Atari's is presumably 1 (I don't have much knowledge about Ataris). So, they could just make tracks 1 to 17 and 36 to 40 be formatted for Atari and tracks 18 to 35 for C64. The C64 would have 81.5 KiB available and the file blocks can be linked to never use tracks 1 to 17. The Atari would have 49.5 KiB of available storage, assuming its file layout can be manipulated to avoid certain tracks.
6:56 Reminds me of the "Saturday Night Live" sketch where the ninjas attack the hero one-at-a-time instead of all-at-once.
33:59 Apparently, snails have only one foot. I don't know what would (naturally) have three feet, or most odd numbers.
The Atari DOS format is fixed 18 sectors per track, the 1541's sector count varies on the track number so you'll need specialized hardware to create the disks.
@@Okurka.: The 1541 is programmable, so a stock device can be programmed to format only specific tracks. There are multiple fast-formatters, for example. I don't know how programmable the Atari drives are, but even if they aren't, you could fully format an Atari disk and then pop it into a 1541 for a half-formatting. The drives won't get confused if they never attempt to read a track that is formatted for the other system.
I did some digging yesterday but couldn't find any flux .PNGs of these multi-format disks. Anybody within the sound of my voice know where one can be seen?
Wow
Interesting! I wonder if it works on the Atari also? They seem really similar. re: Bird - perhaps it was a translucent wall, ricepaper, etc? ; - )
I gave the Atari version a good playing last week on my 1200XL. It's WAY more difficult. I finally managed to get up to Akuma's Chamber, but could not manage to walk through the wall despite many tries. I can pretty much do it 100% of the time on the C64 now.
A game to rival Cheetamen! Just kidding. Looks much better. I'm learning to code demos on C64. Fingers crossed. 😊😊😊
My copy of F-15 Strike Eagle was a flippy. Commodore version on one side, Atari version on the other.
Thug life is not so good in this game. :D
A few other games also used to have "glitch" levels, that were supposed to be normal levels, because of corrupted level data; just one example from the top of my head is the third level of Red Max. Some copies had that one intact, in some others much of that level was gone, with just a pattern of dots in place of the missing part. My original copy (on tape) was the second one, and most of the emulated game sites got that one as well. It was kinda frustrating. Probably that was only an issue with the tape version.
In Shadow Skimmer there was a possibility to go through walls and everything, but that'd normally never occur, unless you happen to play with a dismantled joystick, and press, I think, left and right microswitches / contacts simultaneously maybe; can't remember, it's been long ago..... Sometimes if you got stuck into a wall piece, the game would glitch up and crash.
Good times.
Interesting, I hadn't heard of the Red Max glitch. I own the game on tape (I showed the first level in a video a while ago) but I don't think I ever managed to get to the 3rd level! :)
That's funny about the Shadow Skimmer one; I worked on some games for GBA and NDS around 2005-2009 and part of Nintendo QA was they would test the device on system with a broken dpad that could have left/right or up/down pressed simultaneously, and reject the game if it didn't respond well! I couldn't believe that at the time, but I do respect how Nintendo keeps high standards and doesn't require patch after patch.
I remember playing this game growing up, on an IBM compatible if I remember right. Don't remember this glitch though
I actually tried the PC and Atari versions from that 3-in-1 disk I showed, and couldn't get the glitch to happen on either of those other versions.
I had this for IBM. But mine wasnt in color :(
One is a monopod :o)
It's likely that the Atari version will share much of the same code, so I'm wondering if this Glitch World happens on the Atari version too?
It's been quite a while now, but I'm fairly certain I tried on the Atari version and couldn't get it to reproduce there.
@@8_Bit I've done some research, you can go through the walls on the Atari version if you use the facing right and crouching technique that takes ages to get right. I'll send you a link shortly.
What was the Mastertronic basketball game where you could accidentally play one on three?
Advanced Basketball Simulator? I haven't heard of that glitch, but it sounds interesting!
@@8_Bit doesn't sound familiar. I thought it had a simple name. But I could be wrong. It was notable because the players could break the glass backboard and then someone would sweep up the glass.
It was two on two. You picked colours for your team's jerseys. If one picked black and the other picked brown, there would be three guys on the brown team and only one on the back team (might have been the other way round).
@@8_Bit oh! It was SLAM DUNK. I can recall the image of the disk label in my head.
@@KC9UDX Aha, same game. It was released as both Slam-Dunk and Advanced Basketball Simulator. That's an interesting glitch!
Try fix glitch in Battlefield ;)
Glitchz word ELXARINB reminds me Elixir+magical drink.
imagine if you kept walking and it actually turned into a good game lol. i could never get into "ninja", i liked Ninja Master though, i was only a kid.
I remember cutting a notch in 5.25" floppies to allow the back side writing, thus transforming them into flippies; with the 3.5" rigid disks you needed to burn liteally a second hole into the plastic!
Never used your knives our shuriken?
I wonder what grudge these game magazines held against the producer of this game. It might not be the greatest game, but for sure it's not as terrible as a game lower than 30% should be. And while as kids we might often have been naive and believed in the game testers as some always objective and truthful gods of judgement, we nowadays know better ;)
In the most renowned German home computer and game magazine of that time, it scored 60% btw. and the game was sold at 9,23€, calculated from DM to € inclusing inflation until 2020 :)
I wonder how much was a case of expectation vs. reality. A lot of young guys in the 1980s (the core C64 game reviewing demographic) would have been very into the concept of ninjas and might have really worked themselves up into a frenzy thinking they were going to get a hardcore ninja simulator... when instead they got "ninja floating up through holes in the ceiling" and some decidedly iffy combat.
Yeah, unless there was something more sinister going on, it must have just been major disappointment in the game based on big expectations, so the reviewers punished it. I bought it as a Mastertronic budget release for $10 and had some fun with it, so it's a 60 or 70% kind of game in my mind.
It's a low score but looking at ZZap issues of the period (a mag which scored it 25%) they were making a genuine effort to use the entire 0-100% range. You could still argue that the score is objectively too low (in part because tastes and mileage vary) but I do think they have it scored near other peers of comparable quality.
QUITE NEAT HOW YOU CAN FIND THE PROGRAMMING CODE AND JINX AROUND WITH THIS GAME...!
Flippy Diskette? Wait what..?
A term for a disk with information on both sides that didn't really catch on.
Ninja's gameplay on C64 is broken, use Atari 8bit version
Wow i could create that game within a day using UNITY game engine
Cool, I didn't know that UNITY was ported to the C64!
To be honest, they probably had enough code they reused, they probably didn't spend too long writing this in assembly.
@@Brian-vs9sd it's basic animation sets aren't they
@@hqqns hehe..you nether know one day.....
Rob Hubbard does Unity?
People got paid to make this game.
It was only £2.99 in the UK on cassette ;-)
I don't know why the new commodore couldn't include a web browser and other stuff
Mastertronic is almost the same what LJN in on Nintendo.
So many horrible games.
wow, looks like the most boring game :D
8-bit ninja acid trip.