The Diving Debate - Jamie Carragher, Howard Webb & Gary Neville discuss the act of simulation
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- čas přidán 23. 11. 2014
- Howard Webb joined Jamie Carragher and Gary Neville in the Monday Night Football studio and the conversation inevitably turned to 'simulation', aka diving.
Webb gave his thoughts on diving, what runs through a referee's mind when confronted with a difficult decision in the penalty area and the effect diving has on the game.
Do you think diving is being dealt with correctly? What other steps do you think officials should take to help eradicate it? Comment below.
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I hated Gary Neville as a player but I honestly think he is one of the best pundits around. He raised a really good point about refs never giving penalties for players who stay on their feet. It would definitely help cut the problem out if players knew that if they were truly impeded that they didn't have to start rolling about like a loon to get a decision they should have gotten anyway.
ya def
Yeah I really really like the point that he raised there. One of the most recent example that I can think of was when Sterling gets pushed by Walker. If Sterling went down before taking a shot, he'll have a bigger chance of getting a penalty. But because he didn't, ref waves play on.
@Sheep Shagger He is raising a good point. Obviously we would all like it if there was honesty in the game. But look at it from this angle: U got fouled and the ball goes away from you. So the defender robbed u from a clear chance on goal. It's a penalty by the book but u know that the ref most likely wont give u a pen unless u fall down. U are gonna fall. It's a pen anyway and u know he wont give it even though he should. If the refs dont get better at giving those pens then u get why the player would fall. That obviously doesn't mean that u should fall down with no contact. But if it's a pen by the book then u often have to fall down for the ref to give it.
Same thing with Welbeck against United. Had he stayed down and rolled around he would have probably had a better chance of getting the pen. But he was honest and got up quickly even though it should have been a pen. Often the refs react to the players reaction. It's a catch 22.
There is a simple answer: View video evidence after the game and ascertain whether or not the incident was a dive then hand out punishments accordingly. Three match bans for anybody seen to have cheated. How this procedure is not in place already makes me seriously doubt the competency of the FA, mind you that lack of competency was never in question.
Im with you all the way. They could sort this out if they really want to. It doesnt need a phd or a panel of philosophers. Cheating is against the rules. A worthy and meaningful punishment will suffice. Multiple cameras at every top game covers all incidents and can be used t o determine cheating. Thevtop flight sets the standards for all levels of football yo grassroots. Over time the cheating will stop and that standard will filter down to the lower levels irrespective of whether they have video evidence. Clean up the game of cheats.
I have been saying retrospective action is needed for years! regardless of if the ref dealt with it at the time or not, it should be a fairly long ban and a hefty fine! The people who do it should be ridiculed and belittled until they understand what they done was wrong! It is the foreign influx of players that has made it almost part of the game, it needs to be stamped out!
FIFA have agreements with newspapers from around the world
I don't know why this isn't done. This would soon eradicate diving and cheating if every instance was caught and punished.
I think fines rather than suspensions, will make players think a bit more
Webb should know all about diving. His teammates at ManUre treat the pitch like a pool.
UnknownGenius01 you sound very bitter, learn to accept that your team are shit
Refs should be interviewed after games just like players. And the FA need to stop with this whole "if the ref took action at the time theres nothing we can do retrospectively" bollocks.
02:49 Catch that evil look from Carra to Webb...lol
There's nothing in the law which says a player has to even be touched for a penalty to be awarded, if a defensive player gains an advantage by impeding an opponent a foul can be given, which can mean having to hurdle a tackle. But the amount of diving and injury pretece is absolutely ridiculous nowadays.
Refereeing a football match is actually one of the toughest jobs that exist in sport. it's so nice to hear insights from Howard and it helps public to understand that it's more than what players/managers/fans see in the game. rather every foul is multi faceted. it's a philosophy and all about the methods of approach. so their style differs person to person just like players. just wish everyone can understand before making daunting comments about referees..
I think buisquets made 21 accounts to dislike this vid
Neymar, Robben, Sanchez and Saurez at Liverpool.
lol and ronaldo and drogba just to add a few
This wasn't as interesting as I expected it to be.
Nothing ever is...
Good to see referees point of view
Johny sins?
Would like to see more of Howard Webb
Neville and Carragher clearly think Howard Webb is talking bollocks
Funny really, seeing as they themselves talk shit loads of bollocks sometimes.
***** Neville is always spot on.
***** Insightful at least 85% of the time. Howard Webb here gives no insight at all
He'd make a good politician.
Robbie Kenneally Spot on
there's two former united players ganging on carra, disgrace
Lol
Butthurt Liverpool fans. Are you crying scouser?
LfcReviewKing Bitter, bitter Liverpool fan. How many penalties were you given last season, and Slippy G still fucked up the title!
Cavan Man u support chelsea?
I have to say I have usually not been that generous when it comes to howard webb but from this he has changed my mind. I think a big question that should be asked of the referees is what they need to do their job to the best of their ability, I can get a bit more empathy for what pressure they are under in the heat of the moment from this. nice to see this
I don't think that video should be analysed during the game but key moments should be analysed afterwards and then bans should be given out accordingly. I also believe that some managers (Brendan Rogers) tell their players to dive as it is such an easy way to win goals. There should be points deducted from the team if one of their players is caught diving.
Man utd would have no players left.
and your evidence for Rodgers telling his players to dive? suarez doesn't dive anymore than any other professional but it just sticks to him if it does. plus the more tricky the player the more likelihood they will get into situations where they are taken down. I'm not saying that lfc players don't do it but pleace lets not pretend like there are certain teams that do it and managers tell them to because you have no evidence for it
ukguy lol out of all the real consistent cheating teams out there, you pick ManUtd?? is this a bullshit conspiracy theory that you use to make yourself feel less embarrassed about their records i.e league positions etc...compared to what your team has achieved particularly in the last 25years? you pretend there's another reason other than simply your team hasn't been anywhere near as good and consistent as them.
I just don't know how you didn't think of teams like Arsenal or Chelsea who are only ever successful when they cheat it seems, at least with ManUtd you can say they win things in style, very convincingly, they've always played many English and British players which is firstly something that should be respected (rather than hating them) and also the majority of them don't have the same "cheating mentality" as many of the foreign players (Arsenal & Chelsea have probably fielded the most foreign players in PremierLeague history and trust me the list of consistent cheats in both Arsenal and Chelsea's history is much longer it's not even close to ManUtd's few, but even many of Chelsea's English players of past and present cheat i.e Terry, Cahill, AshelyCole etc...) when ManUtd win league title's they win at a canter proving they're the best team unlike other clubs when they nick a rare league title now and again off Utd, about 90%of Chelsea's silverware is unconvincing for starters, but they also cheat heavily in order for them to stay in all those cup finals etc...which they end up nicking very narrowly and controversially.
Only phonies pretend ManUtd are bigger cheats than other teams because it's just jealousy from you, it's clear people just say it because some other sore loser said it but you can tell their knowledge is actually extremely poor, if they looked at all the incidents they wouldn't say it, it's just fiction created by jealousy. Every little thing with ManUtd get's blown up but they never win trophies because of bad decisions (Chelsea have done many times) and they've lost chances of more silverware because of bad decisions (again, the likes of Chelsea very rarely controversially lose).
just accept the fact - nobody like united
Great analysis
"there have been cases when managers have cautioned their own players for diving"..
Sadly, Sir Alex supported Young for diving few seasons ago :D
Howard Webb likes to play all his FIFA career mode games
Matt Iles I don't get this joke. 😂😂😂
@@salmanfarruz hes the referee i think
Why is there still no TMO?
Only thing that will sort it is video replays. It's too hard for the officials as they have to make a decision on the spot
Wow I just figured it out.. Instant replay,
Two Manchester United legends🙌🙌
Give a straight red for diving and all players will stay on their feet.
He's bald
He's red
He sleeps in Fergies bed
Howaaaarrrddd weeebbbbb
@will ross
You've just summed up how many decisions Chelski get on their side that even a ref you claim is ManUtd's best mate has actually given Chel$ea way more decisions than ManUtd lol
For every player that is caught diving, they have to wear a pink shirt number, so all the fans can boo and be aware of divers
Why is Mike Dean actually a referee? Anyone?
Hes always been shit that fella, and his arrogance is fucking annoying, id love to punch him.
Robbie Kenneally Last season he genuinely robbed Chelsea and City EVERY time he referee'd a match featuring them, especially the Chelsea v Sunderland, everytime Chelsea touched the ball he called a foul to stop them gaining momentum, makes you wonder why FIFA haven't brought in technology to do the refereeing AHEMcorruptionAHEM
Why sit there debating it? If you dive...you cheat.....if you cheat, red card and a match ban. Zero tolerance. Soon dissappear. Dont need to over analyse. Its for the greater good. If not, then let people dive and stop moaning about it.
Spot on.
1:44 dah dah dad da thats my question
5:01. I think he was referring to Diego Costa vs Netherlands at the WC ^^
As a rugby referee there are two things that I have a problem with: 1. No TMO, it would be a great use for penalties and foul play. 2. Stopping the backchat, giving referees the power to move a free kick 10m closer if someone argues or carding them.
Referees actually have the power to card a player arguing...
"Y2"- Dissent by word or action, is translated to sooking to an official... Straight yellow, the issue is referees (Like me) are worried about this because we feel that many yellows will have to be given out...
WSW ARSFC trust man, the key is to understand the difference between when someone is questioning your decision to an extent that it disrespects you or to an extent where they are insulting you.
@WSW ARSFC - but they don't. If anybody but the captain argues the call - Yellow card. Every time. That would stamp out the bullshit in 30 seconds.
Great point by neville
There is honestly no consistency regarding fouls in a game. A small tuck of the shirt on the midfield is a free kick whereas, to get a penalty, it needs to be a two-footed lunge tackle which breaks the leg in two places... It's an interesting point about staying on your feet vs. falling; Mr. Webb must himself remember the 2010 wc final where Puyol fouls Robben when he is through on goal however since Robben didn't fall, Puyol stayed on the pitch..
Did the referee not call a penalty on shawcross vs bony before he went down earlier in the season? I could be wrong but, the foul was definitely committed before the corner came in and whether Bony fell or not.
ashley young the biggest diver lol!!!
Ahead of the curve
Neville hot the nail on the head there.. I think possibly 70-80% of dives or exaggerated 'impacts' come from the fact that a player feels he needs to go down, for a foul to be awarded. Unless a player stops or goes down, free-kicks or penalties are rarely awarded!
Howard Webb should be on the panel as the presenter.
Another sucker he's with BT though bro
Gary Neville's point about giving a penalty without falling down is spot on.
Niall Quinn in the World Cup in 2002 against Spain got a pen for shirt pulling
Neville and Webb -- two Man United legends
y u leave us howard
Get replay technology then, and hire a guy who does it! Simple as that!
cameras for penalty-box fouls and final third offsides. simple
Football is a flowing match with no stoppages, sadly those kind of things can not be introduced, or at least should not...
Is it diving if the attacker is running with the ball, the defender mistimes his tackle and makes contact with the attacker and not the ball, enough contact to impede the player but not enough to make him go to ground yet he decides to go to ground anyway as he feels if he doesn't then a fk/penalty won't be awarded because refs aren't that great at refing?
ie; is it cheating if you go down after being fouled even if you could stay on your feet because you don't have confidence the ref would award the foul i you stayed on your feet?
Personally I feel this is one of the bigger issues that needs sorting as if refs gave penalties when players stayed on their feet, players would have confidence that refs would make the right decisions and as such would try more to stay on their feet after contact meaning there'd be less "contentious/psuedo diving" if you will
American here. I think if diving in football (soccer) is why it isn't very big here. In professional basketball here if you take a dive You are fined a lot of money. They review every game afterwards and if they see anyone taking a dive they are fined tens of thousands of dollars. If someone is a repeat offender they suspend them from a few games.
Perfect example would have been Coutinho vs Southampton near the back end of last season
I´d never want to be a ref... you can only mess up. If you have a perfect game, no one talks about it but if you make a wrong call or more, people get mad
It has happened. An mls referee recently gave a penalty where a player actually stayed on his feet. Good for that referee.
Why dont they suspend players that dive that are caught after the game?
Lesson learned :
1) Don't dive or don't cheat. Play the game honestly..
2) It is stated that diving or dive will be given Yellow card or worse, Red card which in this case, could change the game or tactics of the formation of teamplay.. if you got a red card for diving, it's 10 vs 11..
I just don't get it why people really like to dive that much.. knowing that diving could be booked for Yellow card or worse a Red card, players still diving sometimes, confidently saying & thinking they would a penalty kick..
Howard Webb claiming diving has gone down from 2 seasons ago and that it's consistent with last season in terms of booking. Carra jumps in informing him they've missed 2 clear ones this weekend and quite frankly obliterates his standing point. Can he honestly stand there and say after 120 premier league matches there were only 7 cases of clear dives,even though this weekend they missed 2. Webb's an idiot
Refereeing, not easy!
its simple really , you dive what's the worst that happens , maybe get a yellow card, however the other side is that you can earn a free kick or a penalty which can win you the game. You'd be a mad man to not dive , I'm not condoning it but it makes sense why players do it . teams getting robbed every season .
damn, Howard Webb's got a good radio/tv voice. Man's got a decent second career option.
Howard Webb is a legend
2 former UTD players Gary and Webb
British sports television is so much better than anything in America. It's unbelievable.
I've seen someone give a penalty without someone going to ground..... a handball
If you want to know aboit diving ask strikers not defenders
If players didn't cheat there would be no issue here. Refs are in a no win situation with diving.
Didn't Howard Webb used to play for United?
The way to irradiate cheating from the game has to come from managers who manage the cheats ,managers need to have strong words with there players and "rest" or fine players that cheat , even if the act of cheating brings your team an advantage then that players needs punishing retrospectively ,
if the players don't stay on their feet then you can't give a penalty from a player that stays standing
Neville made an awesome point on never seeing a penalty given where a player stays on his feet
im a referee i gave one or two
Can't believe that the FA let a Manchester United fan referee a Liverpool VS Manchester United game in September 2012. Isn't it funny that in that game at 1-1 they added 8 mins extra time and United had a last minute penalty and won the game 1-2.
A reduction in cautions doesn't mean theres less of it happening. This could be eradicated if there was a willingness to do it among authorities in football. Has the Premier League ever suspended a player whose diving has unfairly won his team 3 points. Its ruining football.
This is the stuff we wanna see, not that stupid 'slam city' crap. Real talk, for real men. and some women i guess
The reason players dive is simple: because referees blow the whistle for every slight bit of contact and are trigger happy handing out cards. Obviously, send them off in extreme circumstances, but let players put proper ball-winning tackles in (and have minor fights) without sending them off. That way; players toughen up, they think twice about blatantly cheating at a players expense and eradicates the need to spit at each other too.
Thanks Mr. Webb. Now take a look at the state of the ref helping Chelsea (top of the league) beat Hull City (relegation zone) this past weekend. Hull were already 1-0 down and up against it, so why does the ref chose to ignore the ‘simulation’ rules? Cahill was already on a yellow card and took a clear dive in the box! It was in the refs line of vision as he instantly points for a goal kick, all the players saw it, the fans saw it, the managers saw it, the camera’s saw it…so way no yellow card?? Especially when he’s clearly willing to book players for this, 2 other Chelsea players were given a first yellow card for simulation in the same game, so why is it not a second yellow for Cahill?? Is it a case of "let’s protect the big boys??"
What about all the penalties Chelsea haven't got this season.
Nav Seira So lets turn a blind eye when Chelsea players dive?? ALL players should be punished for this
HullMarkCA obviously all divers should be punished. But then football would be without penaldo and Ashley young
Nav Seira I'm sure the world would be fine without Ashley Young in the game
HullMarkCA brilliant!
One of my biggest bug bears is the shepherding the ball out of play. Surely it's obstruction.
if the ball is shielded by the defender, but within playing distance then thats fair. once it goes out of the defenders playing distance then that's impeding and should be penalised with an indirect free kick...
Who nicked their chairs ?
Webb should know about giving penalties for dives. Remember the 2 penalties he gave ManUre at Stamford Bridge to help them get a point from 3-0 down?
Robbie Kenneally that was webb
lol, maybe welbecks pk, but on Evra most definitely a pk
Adnan Chowdhury At Stamford Bridge 2 years ago ? it was clattenburg, he sent off Torres and Ivanovic too, Maybe it was a different match.
Robbie Kenneally Different match. The 3-2 was Clattenberg, Webb was the 3-3 when United were down 3-0. I'm a United fan, Evra was taken down, Welbeck was a bit dubious. But you can't blame a ref for letting a team come back from 3-0.
Robbie Kenneally You dumbass, Clattenburg's match, Chelsea were not 3-0 up.. You should keep your bullshit to yourself....
Howard Webb does a good job of making refereeing looking almost scientific, he's a professional at talking a load of shit to back himself up when he has one of his classic refereeing performances
also the retrospective punishment like in other sports is a great idea. sure you might have some people and some matches that end 8 on 10 but it would teach the players pretty fucking quickly, the trouble is the disconnect between the television and the ref perspective on the same play. fans can look at something through slow motion replays etc and say well he wasn't touched, in a lot of cases refs may not be in the right place to notice all of those calls. they need more. fifa and such go on about not runining the purity of the game. well the purity of the game was ruined when 18 year olds started signing contracts for 50 plus grand a week for kicking a ball around a field. p.s can we get some referees who aren't ten plus years older than the players? these guys are eelite athletes and you are expecting middle aged men in some cases to pelt up and down the pitch for an hour and a half and to makethe right calls every time and to be in the right place every time.34 year olds can't do that in the game bombing up and down the pitch so why can a man ten years his senior be expected to
will be a great shame to lose sky sports next season. i will miss the live coverage, the debates, banter, and lots more. BT sport doesn't even come close. but they do have a good presenter.
simple...look back, review then charge them. if they do not show improvement, then fine plus suspension.
so is this how players talk to the refs during games? (except maybe in a more aggressive manner)
And another Man utd legend...
The thing is what used to be a dive is now a foul so now we only say a player has dived when he makes it look bad. if a player moves his leg on another players leg and goes over that's a dive but the player always gets the foul just look at hazard he is the master of it. it's got that bad now that they is no way of stopping diving because what's a dive in some people's eyes is not in another like i say it all depends on if he has made it look good or not. even if contact is made if it's not enough to make a player go down then that should be classed as a dive.
Diving should give players a suspension! It's cheating
This is ridiculous cameras ffs
Do what the NBA does on flops, that'll cut it down
Referees should be analysing games more often, get Webby on MOTD!
Écossais Français I agree they do this in the NFL. they get former referees on on Monday Night Football who analysis referees decisions and then explain to the fans.
Obligatory comment regarding Webb being a United legend...
Great to include Howard Webb on MNF to give another point of view. Should be a regular edition
Only one player doesn't easily go down even in the box and that's Messi
Why won't Webb look Carra in the eye?
Webb has a sense of authority dealing with noisy mouthy footballers must be tough
Howard Webb looks like a police or military man.
Webb always gives man u the decisions
Surely Mark Clattenburg is a bigger United legend than Webb!?!?
Did you watch the United and Leicester match then no ?
united legend
What shade of lipstick is Webb wearing?
Lost all respect for Howard Webb for not sending off Nigel De Jong in the World Cup FInal... he bottled it, didn't wonna send a player off so early... After a Kung Fu kick on Alonso...
Best question to ask a referee. You can be all over a player shoving and nudging off the ball in the box get the ball and bang no penalty. Next time, guaranteed that player is going down and getting his penalty.
messi has had many penalties denied by staying on his feet
Simple. Watch a fucking replay to see it, it's not rocket science
PETER PAWLETT
Howard Webb and Neville are old friends from the time Webb spent in fergies bed
how about almost all penalties for chelsea, y are they ALL dives