David Savery talks to us about cowboy and DIY jobs - SGTV
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2020
- 📢 We're speaking to David Savery on cowboy and DIY jobs, how he combats them and why they should be avoided altogether.
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Agree with most of this but there's nothing wrong with diy for some of the labouring cruft, so long as it's done under my supervision :-)
I’ve come through on a short course I say short, it ended up taking nearly two years. The reason I did it was to re wire my own house. Since then I’ve been doing all sorts of work locally. Carry my own insurance, I’ve seen work supposedly signed off by someone registered with a scheme and it’s been all over the shop! All of my notifiable work is checked by building control. It’s taking me two years of work to build up enough experience to get onto a scheme. Not made easy because I have to pay building control so find it difficult to be competitive. So great to hear you say you want to make it even harder for me! The only thing wrong with the short courses are the people who are pushed through it without actually learning.
Should also add that the cg 2394 that your waving about has been replaced with the new version of the 2391 which I’ve done so how am I less qualified to carry out an EICR than someone else with a 2394?
it's honestly so much better doing the full 4 years training. The reason I say this is because we absorb so much more.
I'm glad I started fresh out of college with my plumbing and gas. I went in part part time to do my electrics but in the end I got there. In all honestly short courses aren't worth the paper they're written on. It's quite transparent through some of the electricians EiCRs that they haven't got a clue. An EiCR should be transparent enough for the customer to digest, not electrical jargon. I feel sorry for people who are being mis-sold short courses. I'm sure It's a waste of money.
A very decent chap. 👍
Useful video thanks
Unfortunately David there are plenty of electricians that are rubbish. Passed courses but don't care and are crap.
Building regs already works as you suggest and so does home insurance. I do my own work and when I've done that batch of work I then pay building regs to check and certify. Expensive but not as expensive as paying for a tradespeople who will have no interest, while as a home owner my family is paramount. So if I have any doubts I get someone in. But when so many leccys make a hash and won't even check torque on boards and route cable right along a hot pipe run. Seen it all. To pay a fortune for that. If the service wants to be regulated half the sparks out there wouldn't make it.
Lastly unless someone's tapping onto electric boards external equipment which is highly unlikely. Then the main risk as you mentioned is for those wanting to mess about with gas. Can blow entire house or more up but on pure electrics worst case scenario, while still awful are shocks or fire risk elevation through poor design or implementation.
But all extra regulation for home electrical, not talking multi phase industrial, will do on a 'less dangerous' [versus gas] is that a person without money or cash careful person will do is go DIY or cowboy job. Then the inept DIYer or cowboy will ignore competence (probably with cash more in mind than lack of competence). Maybe bring in a cowboy rated by a mate or a dodgy qualified spark who has no interest in his vocation other than building a wad of cash for his next holiday. Homeowner will be pushed underground and say nothing about added spurs in kitchen, run standard 2.5 T&E 3 inches underground along garden wall to shed. Many will risk their total lack of knowledge rather than pay either building regs or spark. Reasonableness needs to come into play but it doesn't. Spark's with £100 minimums and council, who with excessive charges, only care about safety providing someone can afford their £400+ inspection.
What should be happening is building regs need to stop shafting people at £400 a time for each and every group of jobs. You may only need a socket or two added in a kitchen (notifiable) when the risk essentially to yourself as DIY'er. Same 2 sockets in living room not notifiable. Council's shouldn't be a massive money making machine. All the while there are many electricians willing to do a sub par job which as you say, look fine on surface but come back to bite homeowner on arse 3 years later because the choc block they used cost them 10p with crap terminals. Prefer to trust myself and consider my home, My Home....unless it's gas which really can affect next door neighbours and infrastructure in road too. Most will probably disagree but while testing of installations may form a major part of regs in future, most electricians will come in, add socket and go. They won't be doing additional testing. It all comes down to one thing really. Are you going to harm anyone else by your work? And is that person external to your family? Could simply alter regs to allow for a DIY'er to prove competence on inspection for work actually done by themselves. If a circuit is added, terminated at all points correctly and essentially completely safe upon verification. Why should you put hard earned money into a spark's pocket where he takes the job and then he has his apprentice who may have no interest or ability himself to do the work. That apprentice may chalk his electrical career up as a bad idea 3 months later.
I like David's videos. But this one just grates me as not all sparks give a shxx
Well said. You know when the job needs doing right, do it yourself. And importantly you know how to do it.
JayzeeBeezee Nonsense you'll hurt yourself though ignorance for the sake of a few quid
I couldn't disagree more, eloquently put though.
Well said sir. At least you have a BC that will actually inspect electrics. They simply refuse round here and tell you to get the same electrician in you were trying to avoid. The BC process is particularly problematic when doing a whole-house retrofit room by room. There are 10s of instances of notifiable changes over the time of the whole project, and spending £150 on building control for every damn moved socket or other upgrading of dubious 1960s wiring is a huge incentive for just not bothering, or at least not till the end, and pretend it was all done as one job.
Totally agree with David about grading of electricians. Unfortunately those who get to industry late in life short courses are the best way in. We can't afford to do 4 years apprenticeship with families and mortgages.
A very thought-provoking discussion.
Ive been in the industry for 16 years and some of the worst electricians I have seen have come through an indentured apprenticeship, apprenticeships dont guarantee good sparks.
Yes and its not the first time has mentioned that either - only he said the young guys can be better than old timers - he's a man who likes to instil fear as a way to make money and make himself feel better.
The older guys had it harder we never had the equipment they have today ...
I served my apprenticeship and the first few years of my career covering many different electrical installations gaining knowledge in various aspects of the field. I now only stick to heating system, combi boiler controls to ASHP with solar etc.. we have apprentices that have only done heating for 3 years and still can’t work independently. I’ll be surprised if they qualify
The most important factor in training is the attitude of the learner, and that reads through to their performance once ‘qualified’ and practising in the field. It is quite common to come across tradesman who do not enjoy their job and have no pride (attitude) and that inevitably impacts negatively on the quality standards of the work.
All tradesman have to make a ‘profit’ that is clear but oftentimes focussing on this alone at the detriment of quality work and offering a good value service to the customer. To do good quality work takes time - turning up on site at 1030 and expecting to be buggering off at 1430 and expecting to be clearing your ‘day rate’ is tantamount to fraud.
Call me old fashioned but I would rather be doing 12 hour days on site and completing the project in fewer visits while doing a ‘proper job’ rather than extending the project (significantly) by parachuting in for a few hours and rushing about producing iffy work - producing poor value for the customer.
I've trained domestic installers and gold card holders, and honestly it's your mindset, you are either competent minded or a....(has to be said) Twat.
I agree that the industry needs to tighten up the short course "electricians" shouldn't be able to claim that's what they are.
I didn't do an apprenticeship to get qualified but I did go to college to do my level 2 and level 3 and I went through my NVQ level 3 and 2391, took my 18th edition and did the AM2 it took 3 years to complete and in order to do the NVQ I had to be employed by and working with a registered fully qualified electrician and have provable experience working in the industry of at least 5 years before they would even consider assessing me, and even with all that some electricians don't agree that I should be able to be an electrician (even though I have the same qualifications and experience) because i was never an apprentice so how the short course people think they can be is beyond me.
The 2391 doesn't denote a sparks that's competent in testing and inspecting. I've worked along side people with the 2391 and without and often they're just as competent or not as the case may be as each other. Many times if they don't have the qualification but they have been trained by their company or mentor to look at installations with a fine tooth comb they're more than competent enough. As an NICEIC member I don't hold the 2391 but often I will take them to sites I've inspected with before and after photos etc and been informed that I actually take a closer look than many with the qualification would have. Basically it's down to the engineers personal pride.
As for regulation, insurance companies can invalidate a persons insurance if it's done by a DIY'er and it's stipulated in the small print of most peoples home insurance. The Gas industry isn't regulated - it's a money making scheme to keep colleges open lets get that straight. The amount of sites I've been to and have to RIDDOR a flue not joined together in a roof or tap connectors used on a gas hob. Pressurized hot water cylinders with incorrect controls or materials for pressure/temp relief etc. Also there is actually a stipulation in the Gas regulations that you can work on your own house with limited scope.
Basically regulation is not a blanket fix to bad workmanship, perhaps it should be legally binding that you can't get insurance or sell a property without a (satisfactory hopefully) inspection from within the last 5-10 years. Also short courses should not be allowed without colleges being able to direct someone to a company for on site training. I've lost count of short course installations I've seen and had to fix because people have been out of their depth.
I like David
He's funnier than JW.
Most people are
My current job role as a fitter making bespoke industrial water filtration has put me in an area where i have to install cables trays, armoured cables and flexible functional control cables, mount isolators switches and 3 phase pumps and motors. Theres and electrician who oversee’s all my work and completes the final checks before energising for live checks and programming. My boss put me through an ‘advanced domestic installers scheme which touches on and involves exams for 18th edition, testing and inspection, practical workshop tasks and part P. Along with introductions to cable calculations and selecticity and diversity.
I have took on everything i have been asked by the electrician i work with and have bought the tools i require for my job including a multifunction tester. I have completed my exams and passed all assessments and practicals with 86% or higher and been commented on for how ocd i am in neatness and practicality.
I would love to work aside a domestic electrician a few times a month using my current jobs holidays in order to experience more real life problem solving. I don’t see myself as an electrician., just someone who can change out and replace like for like sockets, switches, lights, and can confidently safe isolate prior to work and test any connections i make, using appropriate BS standard marked equipment. I would love to learn more
In the us regulation is more lax regarding testing but states do have inspectors so any jobs done by electricians can be checked. A second pair of eyes check is always useful even electricians are human. I much prefer that homeowners who own their own assets/property are allowed to make changes but should be required to submit plans and detail of work and materials to complete the work to standard and then pay for an inspection to ensure the work follows the plan that was detailed for a safe installation. That overhead in itself will discourage DIYers but still allow competent person to carry out work to strict standards. Why not have a proper training system for DIYERs. We also have journeyman and master electrician status.
The guy on the left is a David savery look a like………the real DS swears….
Interesting that the new AM2s is only available via the apprenticeship route. AM2 is still available to anybody. Is this the start of a grading a system that can separate between routes? I hope so.
Part P biggest loap of crap introduced back in 2005..,.
Great video 👍
I was left with no other choice but to go down the short cource route, as my campaign to seek an apprentiship was made impossible by the 2008 crash. Now when I explain to other electricians as to why I never did an apprentiship, I often feel like I am being critisised for it, also I am unable to get a J.I.B card either - Not that want one anyway. I got my 2 year full time 2330, then 2392, then (slightly later) the 2394/2395. Haters going to hate, but thats life I guess. I am in a well paid full time key worker position, doing the trade I enjoy, working with due diligence and a critical eye for detail, thats all that matters to me now.
And you still can't spell course
@@richardhall6509 Bravo
@@richardhall6509 so ridiculous! Pointing out a simple typo mistake ....really ??
What about using 3 core and earth for possibility to retrofit smart lifting which require permanent live and neutral?
If that's the case. Would you not contain the spare cores in a JB in some sort of connector/wago no excuse poor workmanship
Need rules like they have in Australia.
Great video telling it how it is and I love the idea of a grading system. It’s crazy that we have regulations but the industry isn’t regulated. Yes there are CPS schemes but they just seem to want to take a large chunk of money when DIY’ers are free to carry out work and drive prices down. The public will always take advantage of this situation, how many times do you see them asking ‘is there any handymen who can fix my lights and install a socket, who won’t have my eyes out’. Makes me so annoyed!
I’ve wired down lights in 3core,I wouldn’t say that was cowboy stuff, extra switch line for splitting the circuit or a handy feed etc. As long as it terminated properly then no problem.
Time served J.I.B sparky from UK. Also Red Seal Canadian indentured and Australian A Grade unrestricted licensed, I can vehemently express that Australia’s system dealing with licensing requirements is far superior. Any work done without a Certificate of Conformity will Void the homeowners insurance.
it probably does here just not talked about, if homeowners knew their insurance invalid by works not carried out by cps... would be a different story
As long as so called professionals are dishing out £85.00 EICRs I think its clear that shoddy work is just as prevalent within the professional side of the industry as it is on the DIY side. You will always get shoddy work in any industry because the fact is, some people are good at what they do and care, others dont care or are not very good at what they do or just want to make a quick buck. Regulation wont alter that.
Getting rather fed up with people who make a living from doing electrical work calling for more regulation too. There is no getting away from the fact that they stand to profit from that regulation whilst claiming it will make installations safer but there is no evidence to support the notion that regulation stops shoddy work. But what it does do is stop competent individuals with a long background in other sectors of the electrical/electronic industry from doing work we are perfectly competent to do. So no thank you David.
Surely Screwfix components are OK if fitted correctly, their cheap light switches are a bit clunky. But there are unsafe chineseium fake RCBOs etc on ebay
You say the industry isn't regulated ....... its a lot more regulated than 20 years ago at least
Maybe so, but with no enforcement on the part of the authority responsible for it then who cares?
Bloody hell david, you didn’t even say f!*k or bugger !
he did say 'uncock' 🤣 [when calling electrician: Hi I need a quote for uncocking my electrics; it was cocked by the previous owner honest.]
@@frankief7111 😂😂😂
I think the only way to at least push the industry in the right direction is to have a compulsary eicr when it comes to selling your house, this would highlight issues to the purchaser and venor alike and inturn make someone think twice about carrying out diy electrics as its only going to come back and bite you in the end if done badly.
How David got his electrian qualifications?
I think he said before that he done it through a course not apprenticeship?
And if you are in your 30th is it wise to be apprentice for 2 to 4 years to get qualified?
He started in telecoms and then did the short course
@@TheHambletonbiker exactly but it seems like he prefers apprentices more.
@@joealex1700 he already had adaptable knowledge and experience from the field were as others who would typically do the short course won't and that's the difference
I have a huge respect to David and everybody in this channel.
I really want to be electrician but what's makes me stressed that I can't do it like a 19 years old lad.
I have a family I have to study and gain experience while I am still earning money.
So I am really looking for an answer, how can you solve my dilemma?
if you find an apprenticeship with an proper company you should go for it , but its quite hard to get one atleast for me and I had to go thought the other route, both are fine but the other route you get paid ''more'' for day rate and learning more advanced stuff will be hard if you dont work for an electrical company , theres a lot of agencies work as an mate/improver but they will only teach you some stuff to a degree since you are there only temporary most times. Though and electrical company you will learn once you have been working for them for a few years, I also need to mention that a lot of contractors dont do apprenticeships. But in the end My opinion you should do an apprenticeship or a good Electrical contractor company to learn your electrics since both work about the same, I advice you to stay away from agencies
You have Tried the Cowboy Now Try the marshal
To do a good job you need to understand electricity and how it works, ohms law, the regs and good workmanship is a must. Other than that it's all smoke and mirrors as far as I'm concerned. Nothing difficult about electrics or any other trade for that matter. You just need to understand and practice the art. It's other peoples lash ups, where no logic or care is applied, that make it difficult.
I’m grading myself as top grade
What does David mean by short course..? In my case in New Zealand I was one of the inaugural candidates in a new training scheme for electricians, where you have to meet all the same requirements of qualification, however it started with going to the polytechnic and studying your electrical engineering theory first then going and seeking an apprenticeship. This was done to get more bodies out in the field to help with the re-build of the City of Christchurch that was devastated by earthquakes. Sadly to this date I have been totally unsuccessful at securing an apprenticeship, and I did it all for the best of intentions. It seems that the local contractors were not pre-briefed as to the situation and some still won't come anywhere near us with a barge pole.
A short course is where you can do 3 days studying the Regs and on the 4th day take the open book exam . This means anyone can pass the exam and have never touched a cable in their life. Ideal for those upgrading from 17th to 18th Edition but dangerous for beginners!!
@@davegreen7223 Just to let you know I studied for more than 3 months and I had to wire neon light ballasts and diagnose motor faults etc. It wasn't all text book.
hairdressers should be regulated also
Also Eastern European’s Many come and go ..and there work is poor ( the ones I have seen) the training schemes are usless apprenticeships are the only way imo I retire shortly and I am glad I am far to many stupid rules ..today yes better equipment but not so many better sparks. ...I have allways enjoyed my work as a apprentice when I was 16 years old ..yes things have changed. A lot for the better In my days is was never be a jack of all trades but a master of one. ....
If you grade people to do different jobs then the person who does the grading should be liable for that person work as well if done badly
I had a new consumer unit fitted, no gland on the tails cable entry holes the size of the channel tunnel in the back for cable entry. Yup it was a large electrical company doing work for councils and housing associations! My insurance requires notification of any notifiable works (Start dates and end dates companies name(s) and insurance details) so it's sort of there already, how many people read their household insurance? BTW I have rewired the house Myself and it's a damned better job than the company that did the fuse board would have done!
No requirement for the tails to be “glanded “ my friend
What do you mean 'unregulated'? There is a pile of regulations applied to electrics since the 1990s so the poor old DIYers can now hardly do anything without having to file a load of paperwork. OK, yes in practice you can do what you like in your own house and probably no-one will notice until you move, but mostly that's contravening building regs. It's easier to do (your own) DIY gas work than electric, AIUI, without falling the wrong side of the law.
I'd vote for less regulation, rather than more, or at least a system which actually works for competent DIYers (the current 'just ask building control' is useless because in most places BC won't do their job of checking that things comply, and just tell you to get an electrician in).
Nothing wrong with trying to help average punters avoid being ripped off, and professional standards being raised: that's obviously good, but we shouldn't be making DIY unreasonably difficult in the process. The reason I like to DIY stuff is _because_ I don't trust tradespeople to do things properly, or at least not at reasonable cost. The few times I have paid someone else to fix my house or car, it's mostly been a very unsatisfactory experience.
The spare core should be going to earth.
if you mean when he said about the three core cable , here in the uk we use twin and earth but we dont count the earth so when he said 3 core the earth its not included so those lights will have a live neutral earth and a spare cable doing fuck all
@@cocoino2307 I know what he said, Here in the UK if you have a spare core example 3 core and earth, so brown, grey, black and cpc, and you only used brown, grey and cpc, if there is no use for the black cable then that also must be connected to earth on both sides sleved up green and yellow.
The spare cable only needs to be treated as an earth if it’s not connected or used , I would make it a permanent live.
@@supersparks9466 why would you make it a perminent live?
Incase you or anyone else needs to pick up a live to add to the circuit. I prefer the loop in method at switches but if you don’t take at least one live to the lights it means if you need to add in the future then chasing out down to the nearest switch maybe the only option.
I take offence from many of these types of videos at the DIYer bashing. I bet thousands of DIYers potentially have great knowledge and take greater pride and care in the work they do than a vast number of those in the trade.
The issue is the incompetence in many who give everybody else a bad reputation.
I for one take great care in all the work I do on my house and previous flat. My work is significantly better than some of the crap I see in my day job working for the big 5 in the house building industry.
Over regulating it will send even more people into desperate measures to do it themselves as the costs will only increase.
I would however like to see a much better system for qualification levels in all trades and a much more comprehensive grading system. Why not have a sparky grade for adding a socket for example! Show DIYers where to find the relevant regs and good practise guides and let them do minor works.
Many look at the building professions in this country as second class citizens unlike they do in the US, Australia or New Zealand and certain countries in Europe. This also really annoys me and it's because of the cowboy image the industry has.
It would also help to educate people more about taking pride in what they do whilst also educating them about all trades at school.
Yes and the incompetence or not giving a damn is I am afraid not limited to DIYers, plenty of registered professionals dont care either, the £85.00 EICR is proof of that.
he seems a bit quiter here and not foul mouth as in his videos
Mainstream public awareness advertising by CPS organisations would be very helpful.
Don't tar all DIY jobs with the same brush, we are not all cowboys.
Ray Roulstone, I’m sorry but I’ve been in after ‘DIY Dave’ has done his accumulated know how of electrical work you can put on a postage stamp, and quite frankly have been astounded by the sheer degree of his incompetence. How can you dismiss someone who has had years of professional experience and expertise in this field, not to mention the unaccountable amount of money spent going through updates and qualifications, just so that you and your barmy DIY buddies can leave someone in a potentially dangerous situation, which should never have been done by a Cowboy!!
@@sheargillsparkie9588 Ouch. I knew this was coming. I'm not a professional but what I know about electrical installations would not fit on a postage stamp, even if you used both sides. You don't know my background and have no idea my level of knowledge. My last major piece of work was a new final ring circuit in my garage to workshop conversion. Work I was perfectly within my rights to do and the local building control were notified of the work and it was subsequently inspected and tested by a professional who, by the way, was impressed with the quality of my work. So we are not all the same. TBH I have seen shocking installations from so called "professionals" who only want to get the job done as quickly as possible and move on to the next one.
If you have demonstrated your abilities to the satisfaction of a professional, then I am glad. However from my experience, attitudes to ensuring safe practices and having an outside body check them off, are very few and far between. My best regards.
@@sheargillsparkie9588 I'm not sure about DIY Dave, but DIY Jason has the advantage of a near limitless amount of free time. I can take as long as I want to optimize the design of a job, order the exact parts that I want and wait days or weeks for those parts to arrive if need be. Over the decades I've read books and watched videos to prepare myself to take on those jobs that I'm comfortable with. I have to live in my house going forward, so I'm not going to do any work that may be substandard. By saving money on labor I can tackle more projects and make my home safer and more modern than I could otherwise afford. I also hire tradesmen frequently for the more advanced tasks and larger renovations. I rarely hire by quote though, as at times I ask for work items to be done to a higher standard than a tradesman may initially plan for.
Jason Dragon, I say good for you. I don’t know many individuals with the luxury of limitless time, but there you go. If your point was to say you stand out above those common diy’ers, that’s okay then. Where as Ray demonstrates having his work passed off by the local authorities, who you obviously seem to undermine, and gets official consent to carry out work within his limitations, you obviously think yourself above that because of your decades of studies and watching videos? Well Bravo. I wish you every success but you have shown nothing but contempt for those who do work safely and under the guidance of local authorities. I’m sure we can all sleep well knowing that.
David Savoury?
lots of poor nic iec sparks aswel
Electrician moaning as ever. The same can be said of all trades. Very few in the trade bother to do the job right. Get in get the cash get oht.
Very true.