Combat Zones For D&D & Pathfinder (Ep. 136)
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Stop counting feet and start thinking in zones. Fate, Conan, and 5E Hardcore Mode all use zones. They're faster, easier, and flexible. They also allow you to save money on terrain. Professor Dungeonmaster elucidates.
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The way my group runs it is that "Close Range" means you can hit them with a melee attack immediately, "Mid Range" means that you can get close enough to hit with a melee attack that turn, and "Long Range" means you can hit with a ranged attack, but you can't get close enough for melee.
This video was a roller coaster! At first I was empowered by movement based on my hand size as I have large hands. Then I was attacked by the sausage fingers, that hit home.
Great video.
You know what they say: big hands, large movement speed.
Now that I've seen Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, this comment takes on a whole new meaning. :D
This entire channel has really upgraded the way I run DnD, both in quality and the efficiency of running it and prepping for it. I cannot stress enough how much I enjoy these videos especially the Caves of Chaos, showing how it is implemented in play really helps spark ideas.
I wish there was more Zone Combat content available. Speedier than Grid, and less obfuscated than Theater of the Mind.
Awesome! I did something first! Please share if you can.
Check out TSR Marvel and West End Star Wars. They are older games, but they may be good for exploring this topic.
Dungeon Craft Hello! The video doesn’t seem to be working. Any idea on how we can see it? Awesome videos and I’ve been getting a ton of ideas for my games ever since I found your channel 👍🏻
@@heavymetalmystic2430 I've brought it to youtube's attention but they have't told me why it's not working. I am trouble accessing it myself. Working today on re-uploading. This may take a few days. Be patient and check back in a week.
@@heavymetalmystic2430 It's working now. CZcams is crazy sometimes.
This video reminds me of when I was looking to get into dnd and was watching videos. This channel and runehammer were the reason I took the plunge. This way of looking at the game.... This is THE way in my opinion. The ideas are on point and they should both be hired to make 6th edition.
I went down the same path. Got into 5e with Critical Role but struggled with it. Finally found a good system through Runehammer ICRPG and this channel.
I would love to see an actual gameplay video where this is used, not only in a physical in-person game, but also to see the concept on a virtual tabletop like Role20. I think the live theater metaphor is extremely apt, and I love it, but my players really love gridded, heavily tactical combat.
Chris Cooper I’ve also wanted to see how this plays, I’ve mentioned some combat to my players and they don’t seem into it like I am. Would be nice to see how it’s properly ran
Joey The Moose my players really like highly tactical gridded combat, but then they don’t really utilize the terrain I create for them to execute those tactics. I’m thinking of adapting this idea into some kind of compromise where there are “zones” that represent different features that result in different bonus/penalty combos. So instead of just being in the “ranged” zone, they have two different zones to choose from that confer some kind of bonus and incur some kind of penalty. Rather than using actions or rounds to move between zones, moving between said zones just uses the character’s movement.
Holy complications, Batman!
If I can’t play it in a dentists waiting room, it shouldn’t be in the game (I don’t include books, because the rules can be rote).
Ie pencil, pad, dice.
Ndow Roccus mad respect for being able to go that minimal! I don’t quite have the skill to strip things down that far yet. I rely a lot on peripheral tools still to fill in where my reflexes and instincts aren’t quite there yet.
Ndow Roccus I’ve played games where the DM is clearly making it up as we go along... it’s not as fun for your players as you think... I promise...
I love the comparison with Hamilton and theatre. Genre improvisation on stage is commonly setup with minimal set that can stand in for lots of locations, and that's the closest performance art-form to role-playing. Probably explains why most of my friends in improv are also roleplayers :)
Interestingly the 'here' and "there" simplification makes it much more difficult to follow.
He's my actual player, so you know he's not a plant!
Here and There makes sense to me i dont know man.
Yeah, I think things would be much more clear if it was changed to "hither" and "thither" or "hither" and "yon".
I agree. It assumes all of combat is cleanly centered around one area. What if we've got messy combat and there are 3 different 'here's? What if I want to cast a fireball behind enemy lines to hit a bunch of enemies and NOT my friends? That's half 'here' and half 'there'.
@@colinsmith1495 everything is a tradeoff. You get a fast an easy way of tracking combat movement without sacrificing sweet minis and terrain but you lose a lot of tactical movement and strategic use of area effects (although I suspect PDM uses the "hands length" rule for AOE outside the central zone).
Ultimately this stuff isn't for every group (including my group) but it is always an option to consider.
The other thing to consider is that if you use zones you also design your encounters according to that premise and expect the players to embrace those limitations.
This is one of those things that people should try out and see if they like it. I fall firmly into the "give me grids or give me death" camp, but I can see how others could prefer this style of play. Our game group likes just a bit more tactical feel than zones or theater of the mind allow for, and if we get away from the grid, alot of questions arise...thus making the game slower.
Even though Professor Dungeon Master does ALOT of things vastly different than me, I always appreciate the videos none-the-less. I always want to improve my games whenever possible, and see how other's do things, even if I decide not to implement that idea, it can always provide new insights.
Thank you for that thoughtful and eloquent response. That's exactly my attitude: think about it, try it, and if you and your players don't like it, get rid of it. Cheers!
I remember spending (quite a lot of) time trying to translate FFG's Star Wars RPGs into a grid-style combat game so I could use my collection of miniatures. It was soooo liberating when I finally realized that I didn't have to do that and instead started designing encounters around loosely defined zones.
You seemed a lot more happy in this video than usual. I like that. You get really happy talking about your terrain and it's lovely to see
This is the Whitefell DM. From the moment of its creation. i created and use my ultimate dungeon tile everytime i host a session. It is now the only way i play dnd. Zone combat has saved and improved combat time and allows for unique props and accessories. I highly recommended any DM worth his salt to make this crucial 1 size fits all tool! Adding the lazy Susan really brings life to the table when everyone can access the board. I chose to make one side stone floor zoned the flip side is an outside scene made of flocking and a small river inspired from the Ultimate Sewer Tile.
Thank you Professor Dungeon Master.
I Reward you 1 Inspiration Point.
Sincerely The Whitefell DM!
Thank you, sir!
Zachariah, I've been debating using this, but I'm running into some problems. I have a monk in my game, and one of the benefits of a monk in 5e is the increased movement they get. How do you work around this with a zone set up if everything is abstract? Additionally, what about spells like wall of fire that have specific dimensions and need to be placed? I'd love to hear from someone with more experience in this than me.
@@richardcruz6894 Hello Richard. Its actually quite easy when using the UDT remember that there are a few various versions of its basic design. If you choose just a 1 inch grid set up for the entire face of the board. Laying down props, can give great perspective to how far a char can move. I habe 2 players 1 that flys and one that can move double. Both principles are treated equally declare the hight of your surroundings , as to not lead the player to beleive they can get away with flying to brake the game mechanics. Props on the grided UDT will greatlly assist you as the dm with wall of fire and various other spells as well. But, please consider the zoned combat. It is the same basic feel but know you introduce the tactical combat zone property's ranged,close combat. The center zone is allways inside a building that way you can have more controle of the story and the players involvement in it. Dont forget that your the dm what you say goes, so at the end of the day if you say wall of fire is these 3 squares then thats what it is. Consider how your players go about handling combat and solving quests and puzzles. Introduce the zone combat as an opportunity to test the grit. Zoned combat is strategy and roleplaying at its best in mt opinion.
Thank you for writing. Richard Cruz
I Reward you 500xp!
And a Helm of Loris (Int +1)
Sincerely The Whitefell DM
@@richardcruz6894 As I have already posted above, 1 meter (or 1 yard) is the typical amount of "space" that a normal human occupies COMFORTABLY in the real world. Just set your distances at either 1 yard (36" or 3 feet) or 1 meter (39" or ROUGHLY 1 yard) INSTEAD of feet and then use the standard 1 SQUARE equals 1 Yard or Meter. I don't even change the spell or missile weapon ranges... IF a spell is effective at 30 FEET, I just make that range 30 METERS. NO, it doesn't significantly unbalance the spells either. Many spells in D&D are not properly balanced to begin with, and the increased range doesn't hurt things that much.
@@richardcruz6894 Easy. They can more from the outside ring to the inside in one round.
Thanks for sharing this! I am getting into EZD6. They use this under the names Near and Far. So this was really helpful to me!
Thanks for watching. Check out Scotty’s cameo in my “Lost City” video!
Already watched that one! 😁
Zone combat is the best. So is the Prof.
Thanks!
I don't rock the UDT but I do use zones. I just make landmarks on a more or less regular map into zones.
Like I scribbled out a six-zone map for a session I'm running in less than an hour, hehe.
It's got the road, a pile of rocks, some broken stairs, two burned-out houses either side of the road, and the walltop(with a mounted machine gun).
These are all zones because there's something noteworthy or useful there. Cover, an obstacle, a cool gun. Stuff like that.
Agreed. I break my maps into locations or rooms. If a character is in a room, they can interact with anything else in the room. Larger rooms are split into sections when it's reasonable to do so. One movement takes a character from one area to an adjacent area.
I got this idea from playing "Mansions of Madness" by Fantasy Flight Games.
Im absolutely inspired! I still like my tabletop with terrain and houses but have opined how inadequate the setup is for interior spaces. Particularly large ones like twisted caverns or sprawling castles. I'm going to start working on a set of these and use the zone system for all my interiors! This is so practical and still lets you get the minis out, be tactical, and get that sweet visual stimulus.
Love this episode I have been doing encounters with my son for sometime. I used a lot of modified rules. When I came to your channel my encounters with my son were so much better thanks to you. You have taken the mystery out of the game and made it better for my son and I to play. I would love to be part of an encounter with you and some other players. I have never been apart of a game. I have just DM for my son and I. Keep up the great work
I think that I'll stick with grids.
Great! You can do that!
Grids are so easy and practical. Zones are vague and wishy-washy.
Might be fun to go loose with the distance rules. Maybe not like this video shows, but what about gridless? Even just using a stick to show how far someone can go and just placing it on the mat speeds up gameplay. This is a common thing with tabletop wargames, especially large armies.
Profs style compared to 5e is like comparing Basic Fantasy rpg to Pathfinder. I gravitate towards this style because frankly everyone at my table plays slightly different. More rules is more to remember and i dont like being the one to tell my players how to play, but i cant expect someone with dyslexia to read the book and understand it fully either. I need a middle ground.
Thanks prof, been watching for a year i think, keep up the great material.
I started with Star Wars Edge of the Empire games which also uses zones. I love it and use it with every system I run.
ALL hail Professor Dungeon Master!!!!!!
love this concept. new to D&D and my earlier games were all "How far away am I?" count,count, count....
Cool!
This setup could be the basis for a whole new game system, and I like it.
Working on one now.
I have a lot of respect for Prof. DM, and he's definitely elevated GMing discourse. That said, the videos collectively are starting to drift into "there's one right way to RPG" territory. To continue the video's theater analogy, is there one best way to do theater? It might be time to consider adding new voices and perspectives before the channel grows stale, which would be a real shame, because it has a lot to offer.
I love this so much! well said Professor
Thanks. Can't remember what I said but I vaguely recall that being on of my favorite videos, then it not getting as many views as I expected (sob).
This is absolutely perfect for Mörk Borg!! That game is all about abstractions
Yep. I’ve spent the entire day making a new one.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 haha that's why I'm watching these again too. I made my own Mörk Borg setting based off NYC so I'm brainstorming how to make udt look good for an urban city setting 🤔🤔🤔
Thank you professor, I recently crafted my own Dungeon zones and attempted to use it in one of my games, however I messed up some of the movement rules, it was still fun but my players complained that it nerfed Ranged built characters because it eliminated the large battle distances. However I ruled that you could move AND attack from the Ranged Zone to the Melee Zone. Personally, I think this is a wonderful thing for individual room combats and tavern brawls and castle sieges. But for large wilderness spaces I think my players prefer the Battlemap. Oh well. I'll continue giving it a try and hope my players take to it better as I get better using it. As always, amazing video.
My group's very minimal, at the moment, when it comes to maps and terrain. We've got some minis and a chessex battle mat, but because our sessions are generally pretty short every week, I don't like to waste time drawing things out at the table during the session. I'll often draw out dungeons or other important set pieces where I'm expecting combat in-between sessions, and if it comes up, great; if not, I don't get broken up about it and just move on with the game.
I do generally prefer gridded, tactical combat when it comes to D&D/Pathfinder-style games, and I know some of my players do as well, but I also play a fair amount of Fate and love the concept of zones. I hadn't heard of UDT before today, after watching a video from The DM Lair on the "best" way to run combat. But I've always gone to "theater of the mind" for those combat encounters I didn't predict ahead of time or don't require as much attention to detail. I think I might try UDT for those types of encounters and see how my group likes it, saving it for off-the-cuff combats and reserving big, tactical set pieces for important plot-driven encounters.
Thanks for all your hard work, Professor DM!
Cool. Thanks to Luke at DM Lair for bringing us together. Good guy.
When I first watched this vid early in DMing is was just "nah, cmon man. There's no decisions for them." After a couple years, i have completely flipped, and I'm absolutely running my next game with zones. Not only does it look simpler, but I think it may very well make combat maneuvering MORE intuitive.
Thanks! That really means a lot to me. Stay tuned. In just 2 weeks I will unveil my new GM screen, which doubles and scenery and is compatible with UDT. You will love it! -PDM
Great video! It's funny when I first saw your UDT a few months ago I told my wife it's like Hamilton. Spinning floor and you can add props same concept. Today you mentioned it..hahaha
Love it!!
I feel like there's still a place for grid combat. I've played with a number of people that really like to get into the more gritty defined space of a grid, but honestly this fits most of my needs (as someone that tended to go for more theatre of the mind as a DM)
I have to admit that Prof DM is DEAD ON with the subject. As a DM for the past 30 years, I tend to simplify the whole picture to make it more acurate... And not only it works, but it captures more the imagination of players.
Thanks, Joel. Please share this video with all your loved ones, friends and pets!
I haven’t played an RPG in 30 years but I still watch your show. Congratulations on 40k!
There is actually a method I borrowed from FATE that is based on their zones. Basically the same as what you're talking about. But it allows tactical movement. Each zone is a 30ft section. You can move anywhere within that thirty foot zone by any "simple path". Its also very easy to eyeball 30ft movement if you move to another zone. A dash is moving two zones.
Because of this system, it allowed me to have more complex terrain with different heights as well as cover
I wanted to thank you and share my appreciation. I used your video as a jumping off point to create a basic system that makes combat distances simpler for blind and visually impaired players. I wanted to thank you for providing inspiration, sending me down a rabbit hold of articles and the rules for Exalted 3rd Edition. I have referenced your video and provided a link in the set of rules I am putting out to players in our blind and visually impaired community.
Thanks professor! Super interesting video
You're welcome. You can see it in action here: czcams.com/video/MGeXZcuI3No/video.html
Terrainosaurus Rex. ROFL. Thanks, that made my day.
I think this video with the combat examples explain the zone concept well. Whether you and your players can adapt to the abstract nature seems to be the problems some of the commenters are having with the concept.
If you're running 5E, and used to running grids of 5ft squares, you might have to adapt a bit, but nothing a bit of houseruling and discussion between DM and players hopefully can overcome. The Professor plays faster simpler games that may accommodate this concept better. But it seems a nice midway between basic theatre of the mind and fully fleshed out battlemaps with buildings or cavern corridors laid out in full.
Thanks for commenting!
Udt is revolutionary, it creates an easy step from theater of the mind to a small and easy fast pace mini session. Thank PDM.
Ancient Odysseys has the conflict map. IIRC, there are 4 zones: closest, farthest, behind, sneaking/flanking. Worth a look-see.
Zones help keep track of who is “here or there” - needed for games with miniatures- coming from a table top war games background- my group went to miniatures and terrain to stop the players who’s characters seem to go from the back of the party to the investigating the chest in the room ahead of the party and then back to the rear of the party when the trap was sprung - many game masters know exactly what I am talking about 😂
I certainly do. It definitely changes the game and doesn't work for everyone.
It's always the Ranger in our group lol
I'm starting to really dig your philosophy of how train is implemented in your role playing games.
I would call your style "Interpreted Represented Terrain",
Were The DM Crafters guld and More traditional style of terrain i would call "Direct Representait Terrain."
Interesting. That's going into my notes. I'll start using the terms and we'll see if it sticks.
I have been reluctant to adopt this but after meditating on a "soft reboot" of my current homebrew game, I think I will. My players like the strategy of traditional grid combat. I might stick with that for those battles that are "Boss fights." But I am going to use the concept of "here" and "there" for other combat to move our story along.
FYI: the soft reboot is me wiping the slate clean with a bunch of house rules that, in retrospect, were poorly conceived. I was on the verge of a player revolt! I want to thank you for some of the ideas that I will be employing to save my homebrew campaign and bring it back on track.
Now if only this quarantine would end! Cheers!
After watching your episode about No Skills for 6E and seeing this episode about zone combat, I am serious when I tell you to check out 13th Age. 13th Age has three ranges; engaged, which is when you are in hand to hand combat and need to make a disengage check to avoid Opportunity Attacks; near, which is when you can move to someone and attack to the same turn; far, which requires you to spend your whole turn to reach the person.
I know. I like that game. Jonathan Tweet himself showed it to me at GenCon.
Great game. I need to find a group willing to play it.
Another masterful concept video. Thank you, sir! - Chris
Glad you liked it!
Good stuff! I like to use it ALL in my arsenal and whip out what my group prefers. Some of them actually prefer the modular tile/wall system and enjoy the thrill of discovery and tactical movement. Other's will only do it UDT. Flexibility = Fun.
Walls are good too.
I really like this, it combines the theatrics, and certainty of terrain with the flexibility of theatre of the mind.
Long time follower and love all your videos you put out. Add another great video to the collection PDM. Maybe it's just me because I've watched so many of videos for so long, but I also think it's your thing. Always loved it since you began. Confession...Having a hard time hearing anything but...May all your rolls be 20's. Okay, now that I got that off my chest...not saying you have to change or anything, but that truly is your trademark saying. Love the video, and I'm a terrainasauras rex too. Keep'em coming PDM...Cheers!!
Thanks!
This video sold me on the idea of zones a lot more than previous ones. I feel like there are a few types of encounters I would still want a "grid" for, but it seems a lot simpler for 90% of fights. Very cool video
I fell in love with zone combat when I first experienced it in FFG Star Wars
The soldier in me ALWAYS forces me to convert my games to METERS. A Meter is 39 Inches or 3" more than a yard. So I just say 1m = 1yd. When you consider that a person basically COMFORTABLY occupies a space of about 1m (most humans are between 16" and 22" across BUT need space beyond their body to move about comfortably), it becomes pretty easy to consider each square as 1m (or 1yd if you prefer "imperial measurements") and since all ranges and areas of effect are also in meters, the conversion to 1" squares is basically instinct, since 1 square = 1 meter.
For melee, I rate all weapons with a Reach. This Reach includes some movement during the attack (on the weapon user's part), and those Reaches [in meters] are;
Short Reach: 1m (daggers, fists, & knives).
Medium Reach: 2m (swords, axes, hammers & quarterstaves).
Long Reach: 3m (polearms, short spears, & longer staves).
Extreme Reach: 4m (long spears & whips).
For the pass 20 years for D&D one square was 5 ft.
As for Star Wars RPG, one square is 2 meters. ( 6 ft.)
From my own pass experience in close quarter combat training in foam weapons and kick boxing. A sparing area moves within a 10 ft to a 12 ft area ( 3m x 4m), now a boxing fight within a narrow hallway or bathroom is a bit different. " As teenagers my family was rowdy."
@@krispalermo8133 Back in OD&D and 1e/2e, there is mention of 3 persons forming a front rank in a 10′ wide corridor. That's 3⅓′ each, or 40″ .. which is 1.016m.
Math checks out =)
@@krispalermo8133 Yes, D&D was 5ft. The issue is that determining ranges isn't as intuitive as 1 (fill in the blank) equals 1 square. Setting the ranges of weapons and spells in feet complicates the issue because you now have to divide the range by 5 [when 1 square equals 5 feet]. IF every square is 1 meter (or 1 yard) and ALL of the ranges and reaches are in meters (or yards), you now KNOW [intuitively] how many 1-inch squares on the map that is.
@@EricScheid D&D 1980's adventure, " Hall of the Lizard King," first appearance of lizardmen, where the main boss was a vampire lizardman, the main close quarter melee was with ghouls & wights energy draining hd level attack, and lizardmen throwing spears and darts at your characters. It was a drawn out death trap.
The adventure was set up for four to six characters in level range of 6th to 10th. Do to bad dice rolls, wights energy drains. As teenagers my 15 members worth of friends and family lost dozens of PC trying to clear out the dungeon.
It came down to " shield wall " formation, military forks, cross guard long spears, and hammer hits to the enemy's heads.
Other than watching reenactment fighters using foam weapons doing shield combat training. Just watch some prison shows on cable or YT.
Q.) How do prison guards pull someone out of a cell that doesn't want to come out willing ?
A.) They send five officers into the room in riot gear with full roman style body shields to press the inmate up against the cell wall with the shields.
i.) shield rush, follow by mass shield pin to the wall or ground, equals
" helpless defender."
ii.) When mass shield pushing someone or a given line of troops. Armor class is not your defense roll, armor does not help at all. In a shield push one must roll strength checks to be kept from being push back, and dexterity/ Reflex save to remain standing or be tripped. Along with Constitution/ stamina to see how long you or they can maintain the effort to maintain the shield wall push.
Along with dodge your face/ head side to side from spear thrusts.
" In one local reenactment I went too 13 years ago, I was in a shield wall going against a different local group. It was pretty much a stale mate, then a couple ten year old little girls started throwing fresh dog crap into our faces over the contested side formation line. Yes two little girls, " halfings/ goblins " turn the tide of combat."
iii.) The number of defenders that can fill a 10 ft wide hallway.
With over lapping shield, you can in what is some what in an uncomfortably way pack five to eight defender in a 10ft wide area line, that is about, four to six ft deep. Which will have another person/ man with their backside right up against you.
With another one or two rows of troops with long spears to attack those who are trying to get through the shield wall. Follow by archers.
Also of note, do to the type of shields the troops are using, they can gain full cover from
" Fire Ball " spell attacks, if their shield do not fail their saving throws and burn away.
As for Lightning Bolt or Gas spells, well the troops are F-up then.
@@swaghauler8334 WEG ( west end games ) Star Wars RPG from the mid- late 1980's and it ran through the 90's. Then Wizards of the Coast ( WotC ) brought out D&D3e along with their Star Wars RPG. Where you can have Luke Skywalker or Vader go up against your favorite D&D monsters and characters.
One joke we had was, " just because the arrow or riffle bullet can reach a listed given range, does not mean the projectile still has the kinetic energy to cause impact damage to a given type of armor."
During the American Civil War in the 1800's, how many troops lives were saved cause the bullet hit a pocket bible they carry/ wear over their heart ? Or the wisky flask ?
As for most of the D&D books listing spell, I have the AD&D2e, 3e and
" why did I buy 4e,?" most spell ranges were setup in 5 ft/ 10ft adjustment range base on spellcaster level.
As for Star Wars, it was all base in meters. And when my group ran S.W. even if you where outside the grenade shrapnel effect, you still had to roll a Fort save to make sure you didn't lose your hearing for a few seconds from the concussion of air rushing by your head. Their is a reason why soldiers wear ear plugs.
The question always asked, " How close was I to the blast effect ? "
As for the movie " Rogue One," the thought of super heat sand steam vapor going off a few feet or meter from my leg is terrifying. Then you have Empire Strikes Back , the battle of Hoth. When I was 25 years younger, I play with creating " ice to steam " blasts to see what it took to burst apart 2x4 board sheds.
Meters and range is everything.
Now at the age of 43, I have no time, energy, to have anything to do with it other than a math problem on paper.
All the terrain we design is not gridded and like Professor Dungeon Master we definitely encourage zone play. When you get a chance come see what we been doing and give us some feedback. We really appreciate all you do for the community! Be blessed, Frederick & Jennifer
I do something similar, I run a lot of my games in the pub over beer, so we tend to use TOTM rather than models after a particularly distressing incident involving some orcs and a pint of guinness. When combat breaks out, everybody is either "Near" (can be hit without moving) "Close" (Can be hit after moving) or "far" (must spend the whole turn moving towards the enemy). Glad to see the esteemed Professer does something similar.
The quadrant idea isn't bad, or better yet just a few big squares . Maybe three or four, tops, depending on the area portrayed. Characters/minis in contact are melee range with each other, the whole group or chain of them. In same zone is short range, i.e. thrown weapon range. In the next zone is long range. Characters can move into a zone and stay at either short range or go into contact (melee) range when they do so. Pretty easy, but still differentiates some of the weapon ranges yet keeps the movement counting down.
I use the quadrant idea in my game. I started because I'd have ranged fighters that moved from one side of the UDT to the other while moving along the outside edge. I didn't have the hand rule or even thought of anything similar so I made quadrants in the middle circle. For me it's worked out really well. I can see how a hand length rule would work great as well.
@@thatoneguy2057 I suppose you could just use the in-contact=melee in the outside area, and not in-contact as still ranged there. If you didn't want to put in more lines/zones. Works either way!
If you like it, by all means make it and post on the FB group. I'd love to see it!
@@NefariousKoel Thats basically how I do it. I have the center circle amd that is used as normal. The middle circle is split in four and the outside circle is split into eight. If characters are in the same zone they are in mele distance. One zone away is ranged and two zones is to far for ranged. Thats where mine differes. I have enough zones for too far away but still in sight, instead of outside of combat all together.
Chris Perkins namedrop: "You had my interest,sir, but now you have my attention." :D Bravo! I love the enthusiasm; as always you've made valid points. Thank you again for a great vid!
Amazing video! Thanks for the clarifications. I Will now play zones. The theater example works great. I know in the past you used the old 60s Batman show as an example for UDT and that worked great as well.
Glad it was helpful!
Soulbound uses numbered zones, so you can have more variety in environments and can more satisfactorily employ tactics like forced movement and AoE's. It's abstract enough that you can manage combat with a spreadsheet, but it's representational enough that you can use minis and terrain.
Once again, another well-made video with clear concepts and execution. Once our group has a chance to play in the same room again (thank you, COVID), I'd like to try it. That said, most of them are 3E or 5E players, so the grid is 'The One True Way' (tm, patent pending). We'll see.
Again, thank you for the high-quality video. Please keep them coming.
Looks like the intermediate step between theatre of the mind and grid
I find this concept really nice, and not just because I've been playing FATE and 5e with zones, but I could see this working for other RPGs like: SR, CoC, Starfinder. Essentially ranges would boil down to: Close, Near, and Far and which would work well in potentially combat heavy games like D&D and SR...especially SR...though there hasn't exactly been a cyberpunk UDT yet
I really want to use this for my solo game I am attempting to get going! Thank you for sharing!
Dark Helmet: "When will "there" be "here"?"
Col Sanders: "Soon!"
I play with four square divided in 4. Each division is a zone, you move 1 zone per turn, I usualy use 2 or 3 square for a total of 8 to 12 zones. Casters reach 2 zone rogue 1 fighter 0, meelee only. It goes super fast.
My first exposure to zones was in Shadowrun Anarchy. It could be difficult to keep track of using theater of the mind, but I like the concept with UDT. I agree that gridded combat slows down the action
Always a pleasure to see what you have to say.
I came for the zones... but I’m here now for the Like and comment because you uttered the glorious phrase...”FLASHING BLADES!!! Though I too use my terrain more like a theatre set so bravo for that! Yours Truly: The Thespian.🖤💀
May all your rolls be forever 20!
I bought myself a battlemat and made some gridded dungeon tiles. I aspire to use them someday. But with social distancing play over Zoom, I’ve gone to zone combat exclusively. We play entirely theater of the mind and it works just fine. Sometimes I’ll have multiple “heres” with different melee groups. That’s absolutely as complicated as I get. I like it.
Thanks for adressing all the Questions of your Viewers! Keep the good work coming… we are hungry :D
Thanks. Keep suggestions coming. This one is lagging in views. Pass it on!
Here little metric, got a cookie for you. Thanks for the content
Thanks for that!
Oh my God, I have that same toy dragon! I found it in a thrift store about a year ago. It may sound dumb, but that really brightened my day.
Breathtaking presentation and terrain! Gave it a 'Like', but - GRIDS FOREVER!!! :p
I respect your opinion.
Prefer using zones instead of counting out every 5', 2m/yds, etc. Especially on 'theater of the mind'. Although it works just fine with minis too, and less fidgeting with numbers.
I know some people have a sort of mental block when it comes to understanding how they should work when it comes to RPGs which use them by default, but I'd chalk that up to difficulty breaking old habits. It's still quite similar, only with much smaller and more universal movement values, and larger zones versus many small squares.
From what I have read, this really reminds me of 13th Age. I have not played it myself, (Would like to try a one shot) but they have 2 similar zones from what I understand.
You are either Near By or Far away, and all enemies nearby are 1 move action away, far away enemies are two moves away. I supposed if a character was REALLY far, you could say it takes x number of rounds for them to get to far away or something.
To facilitate this, they also change a decent number of mechanics to make it work. Like AOE spells hit a certain number of targets(such as 1d4 nearby enemies in a group) , instead of a 15ft cone or some such.
13th Age does sound a bit 4Eish, so it may not be my game, but when I think Zones it is the first thing that came to mind.
As he said 2d20 Conan does zones, too, and it does sound interesting. Good Video
**Edit, I just realized he is referencing 13th age in other videos... Should have looked before my first comment...
"RyuTama" and "The Elephant & Macaw Banner" are zone combat game system
this is actually perfect to help better visualize my combat for my cypher system game. thanks again dungeon craft!
Love this. Thanks for your endless insight PDM. Always appreciated 🙏🏼🥳🧙🏼♂️
Thanks for watching! But the insight isn't endless. Get on FB and suggest topics. Looking for the next topic now.
Thanks PDM! I needed some dungeon craft this week!
Glad I could help!
I am adding quadrants. I intend to use them for spell shorthand: cone is one zone or quadrant, area blast hits two connected zones/ quadrants. It also works for spaceship battles against a capital ship, establishing it's firing arcs.
I am skeptical about zones, I use UDT now, and I think my players like the more precise gridded combat. I’d love to watch a game with
you running combat on UDT 2.0. Thanks!
You can. I put them on Patreon.
My UDT is perfect for semi abstract encounters like a tavern brawl or a woodland ambush. I still love my mats for those big bombastic tactical crunchy encounters. ( I play with war gamers that like big 2 hour combats every few sessions). We still use the grid but the smaller play area allows me to abstract street toughs running away or guards coming in very close to the combat.
That's cool. I'll break out some pieces for a city siege now and again.
Is just me, or I think those would be great even just to hang on the wall while not in use? It gives me some round viking shield vibes.
Yes it would.
This was very helpful. I'm implementing this system and you addressed most of the questions I had
The episode I was waiting for! Thank you professor.
Thank for the the examples. I’ve watch plenty on the udt and the examples really helped
Great to hear!
I'm very interested in implementing Zone Combat, but I really didn't understand this. Sorry to be dense. I really ❤️ that circle piece!!
Watch the Lost City. DM Scotty explains how to use it in this video: czcams.com/video/MGeXZcuI3No/video.html
Really digging these videos. Thank you!
Good video as always! Sly Flourish talks about zones also in his the return of the lazy dungeon master which also works very good as well. For theater of the mind games this can be done by describing the different zones like the door into the tomb is one zone. The grave In the room another zone and the hallway on the side also a zone. Zones and abstract thinking is the best and speeds up the games alot.
Loving the videos!
Zone combat is alright in certain types of games, it is better than theatre of the mind, but it lacks tactical depth in my opinion.
I don't understand the obsession of people for "speeding up combat". Combat is a big part of the game. The most game-like part of the game.
The obsession for speeding combat led to game systems simplifying combat and making them boring. Of course, when all you gonna do every round is "I attack" or "I cast Eldritch blast", yeah, you might want to be done with that chore as fast as possible, but if your system has depth that make combat a problem to solve, and if there is stakes and a risk of death, you should be engaged. Combat should be thrilling and exciting and should challenge the players. Otherwise, why not just solve the whole thing with just a single roll of a die and be done with it?
I respect your opinion. My players LOVE combat. They seem pretty challenged. They've been coming back since 1994!
There is a middle ground. UDT uses simple 1-2-3 zones, but you could easily add more complex zoning. In Shadow of the Demon Lord, zones are based on locations. For example, a pub is zoned as “The Bar,” “The Kitchen,” The Dining Room," "Stairs," "Loft," etc. Characters move to specific adjacent zones like UDT, and characters can attack characters in the same zone with melee or ranged in the others, but now ranges are based on multiple zones instead of here and there. It goes from being generic to tactical, without sacrificing game time to eternal measuring.
Stakes and a risk of death can be done in TotM, UDT, or full grid & minis. The only reason to use full grid & minis is if your tactical combat rules actually emphasize movement, range, and positioning round to round. D&D's combat is not that, it's usually pretty static round-to-round until a combatant drops, and ranges are so generous that they don't matter 95% of the time. I think zones is probably the sweet spot for most D&D players these days; it's honestly going to have about the same number of tactical decisions as a full grid, but cuts out the bookkeeping of movement speed and such. I think UDT is a little reductionist (can't do big epic set pieces that span a whole city block with dragons flying overhead very well), but should satisfy the average D&D player.
I agree with your posts, but I've personally cast Eldritch blast in creative tactical ways.. :)
I've played with many people who want to "speed up combat." Strangely, these same people don't have a problem with a TWO HOUR roleplayed negotiation with a traveling merchant (yes, that was in a game in which I played) for some goods the village needed.
To them, combat is boring and the sooner it's over, the better. But roleplaying every interaction with every NPC is boring too.
I actually wrote my dissertation on Theatre Vrs Roleplay, the actor and the Roleplayer, the director and the DM.
Fun to basically spend my last few months of uni writing about RPGs and Table Top games 😅
in my opinion this is a cool idea, especially for less important encounters and a great tool to speed the game, i imagine do it some little adjustment for my personal games. Normally i fuse theather of the mind with the grid but this is a new thing. Planning in using the three. Very cool.
Zones are a great idea. I tend to use melee, short, medium and long. I also allow those in short range to be targeted by someone in the melee range.
It's a nice compromise between grids and pure theatre of the mind.
"DnD is closer to live theater." And then all was clear to this theater kid.
Those lines were written by my wife--the theater teacher.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1Carpenter/Math Teacher/Theater Teacher? Mrs. Prof. DM is quite the Renaissance woman!
@@TaberIV She is! She is without a doubt the most interesting person I've ever known.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I've been trying to run my game with black box theater scenes in mind! However, as someone who isn't a theater expert, setting scenes this way is pretty tough. How do you know when to cut? And where to start scenes?
I really like this, I think i'm gonna use this idea. I'm purely whatever-goes style theater of the mind. I think this structures the theater a little bit more
1. DnD Hardcore Mode has a section about zones in encounters where he says there are only two distances, "here and there" but if you look at his actual encounter zone examples they have 4 or 5 zones apiece and not all are adjacent to all others. He pretty clearly has a more detailed zone system in mind but didn't want to bog down the flow by being explicit about all the specifics of how an encounter might have "here", "there" and "over there" (as an aside, these 3 distances are baked into some languages--such as spanish--but are a bit harder to communicate in English).
2. I'm still confused as to why you don't just add some quadrants to the outer zones since you pretty clearly don't treat it as a single zone. The "it slows things down" explanation doesn't seem good enough because adjudicating quadrants is objectively faster than adjudicating your "hands length" rule. Who's hand? Be honest: is it just aesthetics? Obviously whether or not quadrants are present on the UDT it is pretty easy to say "this section of 'there' represents this room, the rest of it represents this other room" but having the quadrants makes it really easy and doesn't take anything away when not in use. Simply put, if everyone in "there" can't interact with everyone else and everything that is also "there" then you don't have two zones--you just have vaguely defined zones. Less is more except in those situations where less is less and more is more. The question is about where the diminishing returns start kicking in--"less is more" isn't a truism or a generalized best practice.
Lots of people on the DungeonCraft FB have added quads to their UDT . If it works, do it!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 yeah, some of those are really cool.
Another great episode professor! Thank you as always for your channel and the content it provides. I'm looking forward to trying this out myself. Combat zones would be an interesting discussion for a collaboration piece. Discuss the pros and cons with a guest. I feel like there is a lot of great discussions to have yet!
My pleasure!
I'm happy this works for you, I don't think this is for me. I like elaborate terrain set-ups, and you can use dry erase pretty quickly. I do like your way if you don't have a dedicated room to store terrain.
Yay the Prof fixed the sign off! If all rolls were 20's, it'd destroy the game, so "May all your SAVES be 20's!" is a good fix!
I use the old Mordheim movement rules instead of the grid square idea... 1 inch equals 5 feet works just fine in any direction and around corners and obstacles. Base contact is in combat. For those monsters and weapons such as spears and other pole arms I allow the characters to attack over their companions heads