Fabfilter Pro-L2 Explained: Every Parameter You Must Know for Better Sounding Masters
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
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Hello, I'm Nicholas Di Lorenzo, Studio Owner, Mixing and Mastering engineer at Panorama Studios.
I'm an Italian-Australian born and raised in Melbourne. I've been a creative professional for 10 years managing some pretty awesome projects for artists, labels and producers all around the globe.
What motivates and drives me?
My family,
Good food,
Great coffee.
You can find me on many platforms:
Instagram: / panorama_mastering
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Kit: kit.co/Panoram...
Hey dude, I’ve been researching this too, here’s what’s actually happening with the attack and release: The attack and release settings can indeed be a bit confusing. Basically the limiting stage, or rather the stage of the limiter that recovers from the gain reduction, consists of two stages, a very fast "transient" stage, and a slower "release" envelope stage. The attack and release settings only control this second stage.
The release setting of Pro-L 2 is basically exactly what you expect, it sets the time for the signal to get back to its original level after the signal does not exceed the threshold anymore.
The attack stage however determines how fast the slow envelope stage takes over from the faster transient stage. On short settings, the two stages usually overlap seamlessly. The fast stage might recover a bit of signal really fast and then the release value take over. However, when you are using longer attack times, you are letting the fast stage do more recovery before the release is being applied. At some settings it is even possible that the release stage is never being used, because the fast stage already recovered from the gain reduction completely before the release will be applied.
So in short, the attack button is basically just adjusting the time when the release stage should be starting.
Source: I contacted fabfilter then copy and pasted their response
1:36 You're the only guy on CZcams who explains the Attack, Release and Lookahead relationship correctly. Thank you!
Thanks mate!
The "headphones" difference/null button is actually a really great way to hear how the styles affect your transient releases. Usually the peaks just sound like little "glitches" but at the same limiting level other styles will be limiting more than just the "glitch" transients.
It's interesting; sometimes I like hearing the null/delta signal but with limiting it's not something I explore that often in practice;
What are you listening for in your null's when limiting?
@@panorama_mastering I usually check to hear if it's actually only the "tips" of the snare/kick that are poking through... with the different algorithm styles you sometimes catch instruments or vocals in those peaks - which I prefer not to do. I also want to hear that the percussive transients are as short as possible - the longer the glitch the more likely the you'll hear the loss of transients on the master. I always use "delta/null/difference" with every dynamic effect - from Soothe, L2 and beyond! I've made my own "delta" plugin with Melda MXXX so I can check plugins that don't have the delta feature.
@@mixphantom0101 Nice that's fair ! Would love to learn how you made that Delta processor in Melda MXXX!
@@panorama_mastering Sure... stand by! 🙂
AWESOME!
The true peak isn't just a detector that reads what the true peak is and doesn't let it go above that, that is one aspect of it. In Pro-L the detector works in two stages. It is firstly detecting the true peaks as they exist within the waveform which, to me at least, means it isn't actually looking at the PCM data of the file as it is stored in the session. It seems like it in essence is reconstructing the real waveform as it were. The second part of how the true peak operates is by then detecting any further overshoot that happens after any fast limiting and further reducing that. You can see why there would be clear differences in sound then; the limiting simply is different. To perform a true A/B of which you would prefer at any one time, I don't know if it's appropriate to simply click the True Peak on and off but rather to set the limiter separately for both according to what you sounds best, level match and then compare.
You’ve given me some food for thought! I appreciate that! I will have to formulate some ways of statically comparing it on/off most objectively!
@@panorama_mastering My pleasure. I don’t use true peak either. I don’t fuss with the true peak and I generally don’t need to have strict deliverables like they do in post work.
I would go look at the manual for Pro-L on fab filters website. They run through the controls fairly well and how they interact, though you covered that here well with your tests.
The way you explain stuff is supreme, buying your course soon! 🔥🔥🔥
Thanks mate; appreciate the support; feel free to reach out when you're taking the course; always happy to support the students in any way I can!
Old comment alert. I did find a niche case for using the solo button a while back. I had a bass guitar track that was super clicky and I wanted to smash the clicks down until i was just on top of the tone. The solo button was the only way that I could hear when I really started to cut into the tone. Backed off the ceiling a little and the track was saved. RX de-click and clipping didn’t do as well as the L2. I also didn’t have soothe2 at the time. Like i said - super niche.
Very niche! But cool track; thanks for sharing;
spiff by the same company is AMAZING for that too
Really cleared up my understanding of how the lookahead, attack & release functions interact. Thank you.
No worries; my pleasure!
Your ears are fine. The source material already had such a heavy pumping/breathing effect, that it made it kind of impossible to judge. I’ve always had a problem with the way The Pro L sounds. I can always hear it. In other words, it always changes the overall tone, the size and depth of the mix. I do use it, but I’m always wary of it. Thanks for the video!
My pleasure! Thanks for sharing :)
Metering Totally Rushed - First Half Of This Video Was Great (Similar To The Video 2 Months Ago) - You Know What They Say "No Good Work Gets Done After Lunch" 🤪🍻
Thanks For The Vids 🤘
Haha ! I know! It was the "boring" part of Pro-L2
Thanks for watching!
This is actually amazing, thanks for your effort and can only hope you continue to do this type of videos.
I definitely will :) Typically whatever is going on in the studio and inspiring me lands up on this page here :)
I have a course for EDM producers on mixing and mastering, but mixing is more of my expertise. The last section of my compression part of the course is on limiters and clippers, and the last thing I need to do is go through FabFilter Pro - L, so I really appreciate this video because I just don't know everything there is to know about Pro L yet. So thank you!
I need to get some of the creators of the plugin on the channel. I reached out once, but will have to again, because there’s a lot I am sharing which is only surface level
21:30 The headphone function is useful to quickly check what instrument or frequencies are activating the limiter. If you engage it and, for example, you only hear bass drum or low frequencies, maybe you can reduce it in the mix to achieve an even louder overall sound. The same, if you only hear cymbals, maybe you can avoid the clipper even inside a very tight limitated mix...
thanks man, the manual and plugin hints do such an atrocious job of explaining whats actually happening, fabfilter should hire you lol
Ha ! Thanks ! My pleasure!
As much as I can't stand how you say aliasing, I really really really love this channel. Thanks dude. Keeeeep teaching!
Best Pro-L2 video on CZcams handsdown .
Thanks!
You answer the unanswered that I have been questioning for ages! Thanks man!
You're absolutely welcome!
Hey Nicholas, this is an awesome channel. Im mixing and (trying, to be honest, lol) to master the music I record as a hobby and in just 3 of your videos I've understood so much more about workflow, compressors, saturation and so many other techniques it's unreal. If you ever do a metal mixing/mastering course I'd gladly pay for that. Thank you so much!
Hey! Thanks man! Muchly appreciate the support; Definitely; I don't know if I would but I may look into it int he future!
@@panorama_mastering You're welcome! Regarding the course - I was just letting you know since I already saw a few similar comments ;-).
incredibly useful video!! Massively underrated channel, keep it up!
Thanks, will do!
The TP test was a good idea. On my phone speakers turned all the way up, the TP kick had a little bit more attack and I could tell the difference by that
The iPhone speakers are a great revealer of all!
Yeah weirdly I was able to discern it even on a phone speaker and honestly I preferred No TP.
Thanks for doing that. As one of the people asking for this video I appreciate the time and effort you’ve put in. In particular, trying to demystify the attack parameter is incredibly helpful. I’m going to have to re-read the manual and see what they say about it because I don’t remember this explanation and it’s pretty bloody important!
One thing I would have found useful would be a bit more discussion about how these parameters affect the sound. Especially the attack parameter because that is making the limiter do something pretty unique. And I know I should just set up my own tests (and will) but would be interested in your thoughts.
my pleasure! Definitely; I should use more audio-examples in my videos; I tend to reserve audio specific examples for technique video's over the decoding ones; because there can be a degree of subjectivity around the discussions of musical content;
Phenomenal research work
Thanks mate!
Great video breakdown. The True Peak -vs- NoTP Test was cool. I guessed right 100%. The no true peak sounds round. But the true peak sound like it hits a ceiling like a clipper would do. Thanks again!
No worries! My absolute pleasure putting this together and thank you for watching!
The TP element is something worth further exploring on my part here on the channel, that will come eventually
No true peak will clip when converted from wav to mp3, for instance...
I love this so much!!! Ive always used my ears to fund the right mode and settings and oversample at 4x just because but now I know exactly whats going on under the hood!!! Thanks for nerding out!
My pleasure! Thanks for watching!
The depth you go into it amazing and delicious and thank you man. Especially as a more creative mind I love learning this stuff to fill my gaps
Thanks for the love mate!! :)
Thanks for the time serviced in exploiting and revealing the functionality of relationships and interactions with the controls, settings, and modes. It is quite an awakening for a purposed and productive approach when using the Pro-L2. Alternatively, it has always been using my ears and fiddling with the controls until something says, “Ah-ha” But in a rather drastic time-consuming manner. KNOWING EXACTLY what’s going on by way of the demonstrations and field tests is far more than half the battle.
Meanwhile, I came here for the “Ah The Metering…the metering-the meteriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIhhhhhIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHiiiiiiihhhhhhhhhhIIIIIHHHHiiiiiiiihhhhhhhhhhhiiinggg #beatbreak wap…pop-chickah-chickah……snwap-thumpk-pop…chuck-chickah!”
haha lovely; thanks for watching;
Ayyy this is a really dope breakdown of the Pro L2. I use it a lot so this is dope to see how it reacts and better understand
My pleasure! Thanks for watching!
I didn't know 0 lookahead clipped the signal until today. Always felt it sounded harsh with faster lookahead, so I ignorantly increase lookahead before touching the attack. I will play around with this. True peak is tricky for me too. I listen to the low-end and the width in general. It jumps out when true peak is on. I usually keep it ON while mastering and turn it off if my track is sounding slightly wider (which generally does) than expected.
very informative channel. thanks from korea
Sad that I’m just now finding this video. But if I recall correctly, the TP detector is just the normal detector engaging 4x OS for the detector only. TP with no oversampling, and non true peak with 4x oversampling should null. That’s why it’s so hard to blind a/b them. It’s the same detector algorithm just working at different sample rates.
Bang on!
I love your videos and the way you explain stuff.
Thanks man!
You're welcome!
Your content is really good, i just wanna give a tip, say more slowly and spaced, and you will get more audience around the world, for people that knows english, sometimes little hard to get what you say, congrats for the channel, and thanks for sharing your knowledge! big up from Brazil
good stuff man, keep em coming
Thanks, will do!
the attack time is always releated to the release time and vice versa, the sooner you set the attack time, the more it grabs into the weight of the sound and digs deeper, it has more work to do now. this is the reason that the release component engages appropriately. it follows the overall digging of the attack component. the sound being compressed has a certain amount of lenght, first the transient comes which is followed by the sustain and basically its decaying. so as of amount of frequencies theres is much and it gets lesser. when you set the attack time long enough it partly operates like an envelope shaper thats cutting the sustain. the difference is that a compressor/limiter also creates a "firmimant/glassceilling" for our perceiptions. everything thats limited is showing us shape. the deeper you dig in sand with your arm the longer it takes for you to pull it out moving horizontally and vertically at the same time.
Thank you so much for this insight :)
You're so welcome!
Thanks so much
And I have the same opinion about TP mode
I found it’s even more on obvious when you apply more limiting
Some of the best info on this stuff
Thanks mate!
I was able to identify the true peak version every time. It makes the stereo image sound smaller and the low end loses a little bit of extension.
It's a funny thing making these video's; I set up all these sessions and planned out all my tests ahead of time; when I did these blind off camera I too picked 8/10 times; so I was pretty confident going into filming I'd hit it with the same hit-rate; but obviously that didn't happen;
At the end of the day; after 3,000+ projects I'm still circling round to the same conclusion you've come to.
@@panorama_mastering Haha, you probably just had a little bit of an off day. It happens to the best of us. There is definitely a difference. It's a little more than subtle even through youtube's shitty audio quality.
On a different note. The best sounding true peak limiter IMO is Sonible's Smart Limit. But I still prefer Xenon or Pro L because I dislike the sound of TP limiting. I can't wait for the next Smart Limit update where they give us the option to turn TP limiting off. It could potentially be the best sounding limiter when that happens.
Genial! muchas gracias
No sweat
Mad props that you are able to A/B w/ True Peak be totally honest with the results. It takes courage to test against your beliefs, great work! Once I tested my mixes on poor DA systems, I obtained an entirely new respect for true peak limiting. Have you ever tested the Ozone TP vs. Fabfilter TP? In my testing Pro-L2 TP was far superior to Ozone. Also even with true peak, some samples will sneak through when converting to Mp3, and lord knows what else happens during all the other conversions possible.
Really good job man, thanks for it.
Glad you liked it! Thanks for watching!!
Top notch content as always man! Keep them coming
Thanks! Will do! Thanks for watching!
Great video but is it just me or does something seem off about the side-chain stem limiting method.... if you have pro-l2 on eg. your drum bus, with the master mix feeding the sidechain, isn't that bus limiting going to affect the master signal which is triggering the sidechain? So you won't end up with the same amount of limiting (probably less, because the master is being fed limited bus signals) when you sum it back together? For this to work accurately, wouldn't you need to set up a second copy of the bus which wasn't feeding the master on which you could apply the sidechained limiting? .. Or does it somehow work itself out because the stems would need less limiting individually to reach the same overall gain reduction you'd get limiting the master? (but then there's clipping involved as well depending on what L2 settings you use, surely this willl change the tone of the mix if you're suddenly clipping individual stems rather than the master output?)
"For this to work accurately, wouldn't you need to set up a second copy of the bus which wasn't feeding the master on which you could apply the sidechained limiting?"
Does the chanel link also work for m/s information? For example if a kickdrum which is 100% mono make the limiter work, will a hat that sit on the sides also get ducked with 0% linking?
Loved the video .... can you do the same thing for Pro-C2? I'm sure this would help a lot of people
Super Great revue ;-) Thanks
Great videos! I'm a true peak hater too! (thought I was the only one) :) Focusing on the top end transients I can hear the difference more clearly.
Thanks for sharing!! Same here!
Any chance you will have time to show us how you set up and conducted this test?
Plugin Doctor!
@@panorama_mastering I mean also with like the audio samples you used, the whys the hows, the whats…we love it when you go deep on the technical stuff
Here is another caveat about Pro-L 2 that enables you to obtain louder and transparent masters with less distortion than the norm.
In fact, this applies to any limiter that has this function.
Disable Channel Linking. Why?
When Channel Linking is enabled. the limiter applies the same treatment to both channels when attenuating the gain reduction since it perceives the output levels is identical.
However, 99.999% of the time, no stereo outputs generate the exact same level, as well as immersive audio channels.
Even if TPL is enabled, it is moot. It'll only attenuate once it reaches the output gain's threshold evenly on both channels/sides.
With Channel Linking disabled, the limiter will engage its algorithm independently since the L and R channels output varies.
That means the limiter works less when limiting, in turn, creating louder masters with less distortion. Depending on whether or not you want more distortion on the master, enable CL. Even if you have different percentages set on both channels, due to the style of each limiter mode automatically engages distortion (without lookahead), the outcome will be the same.
Any limiter using independent channels will successfully have louder and cleaner masters, whether or not gain reduction is engaged.
You, sir, are a fucking Saint
Thanks mate ! Appreciate the lvoe!
To be honest every time i load any plugins i have for ages from FabFilterBundle i always find/rediscover something new in them.
Btw that thing with stereo linking... I thought that im idiot for not getting it right,so i always battled that either with mid/side or unlinked option in ProC before hitting the L
In short... Loved the video,i still cant dial in Sidechain from proL T.T
and agree on truepeak... It can fool you,but somehow every time i tried to use it it felt worse.
Thats what put me off from sonibles SmartLimiter
Thanks for watching; I'd suggest if you haven't already watching my video on TP limiting; it debunks a little bit of what I'm saying here about TP limiting! :O
@@panorama_mastering think I watched it... The one where u use oversampling vs tp. Limiting
Very, very good video, learned a ton. The amount of trash you find on youtube about mastering from people who really should know what they are talking about is actually quite staggering.
Thanks mate!
Hey, could you correct me if I'm wrong? So my understanding about the attack and release times is that:
If the attack control is set all the way to the left (short attack time), it limits more gradually, preserving more of the initial sound and reducing clipping.
Whereas, if the attack control is set all the way to the right (long attack time), it limits quickly and might result in more clipping. And It doesn't let much of the initial sound through before applying compression.
Love your channel - this is the first time I have understood the interaction of the Attack and Release on L2. By any chance could you provide practical use cases for each? I get that I might want to clip my drums so I can just set a long attack and accomplish that. but when would I want the release to engage? Is it significantly more transparent with a release like 100ms+? I am using PRO-L2 to limit a vocal bus right now and I am unsure what good settings might be for a pop vocal. I imagine a little lookahead will keep it clean with gain attenuation, but I have no idea what to do with attack and release when I am just trying to catch the rogue peaks. 🙏
Also for Modern STYLE you said 500ms to unity gain, but the graph looks much closer to 4-5 SECONDS to unity.
Just found you. Awesome channel. Thank you 😊
Awesome! Thank you for watching too!
Man, I dont get it that sidechain function. Do you use it all the time ?
I never use it; but it was cool to explore; the idea is that you can limit each bus individually limiting the amount of IMD introduced but sidechain the full signal to each of the limiters;
Would love for you to go in depth with the modern mode some time because I think its broken/faulty. The channel linking works completely different on modern and it can't handle low end at all. I've literally had clients complaining about distortion on their kicks only to find out I've accidentally had modern engaged.
Interesting; I've done some tests across all the modes before; I don't think I've published it here to CZcams; I might do so in the future!
Great video! Totally lost me on the sidechain though. Not sure what was done. Lol
Great stuff!!!
Glad you enjoyed it Thank you mate!
True peak doesn't sound good - it's like aux track vs master faders in pro tools. True peak and aux tracks sounds really bad. Great content man!
Thanks mate!!! Go check out my latest version on TP limiting; I'm going to have to do a video at the end of the year debunking EVERYTHING I GOT WRONG!
If you take suggestions could I request an examination of Soothe2? Would love to hear your thoughts.
This video is one year old; when I was refining my process for YT; but it's covering soothe!
czcams.com/video/Vt0eLGh4ZLc/video.html
Enjoy ;)
@@panorama_mastering "so basically it's magic" LOL! too right!
26:04 i am so good :D... i did everything right with my Kali in8 + sub :D - the true peak function sounds bs
Hey ! I invite you to watch this break down of how TP limiters actually work; czcams.com/video/70bqdkej9KU/video.html
@@panorama_mastering interesting, now i understand why true peak sounds more squashed at the same sample rate... thank you
This is a good one to watch when I’m 💩ing
👍
haha? whattt is up with your toilet routine mate?
True Peak Limiting actually turns off over sampling, I believe. That's likely why you don't like it, nor do I.
Ooo;; actually it works in an interesting way; here's something I found out AFTER making this video; czcams.com/video/70bqdkej9KU/video.html
@@panorama_mastering - Sorry, I mean how TPL works in FF's L2 specifically, by not over sampling, even though you may have it selected. I'll have a look at the video. Thank you for sharing.
@@panorama_mastering - aha! watched the second video and that makes complete sense now. Thank you again. I wonder why FF has the TP checked by default. I find I typically turn it off, oversample and set my threshold to -1db.
Did you give away all those plugins yet?
I don't follow what's going on with the sidechain - you said it should be keyed in to the output of your full mix, right? But if it is outputting into the mix then aren't you just increasing the amount of gain reduction from whatever it was before so how is that making the overall loudness of the mix higher than it would be without the sidechain? I didn't understand your example so that's probably the real issue lol
I mightn't have explained myself clearly enough, sorry; it's the fact that the limiting GR circuit is applying to each individual element seperately; you can then drive those individual elements harder with limiting than you otherwise could if it were the limiter across the whole mix-bus;
@@panorama_mastering I don't know what you mean by the "GR circuit" but I think I get the gist of the idea. I tried this out on my mix and it helped me get loud enough to compete with my reference track. Thanks man I really appreciate your help - found you through the last Dee Kei episode
Now i'm feeling like a Pro.L nerd 🤓
seems like you missed the DC offset button 😅
There's always that one thing! :(
man, your mic is saturating.
26:03 HAHAHAH
Honesty is the best policy no caps here;
@@panorama_mastering for real! I loved that part. Makes it so authentic 🤝🤝
Bro u death haha, training your ears.
Your attention to details man🤦🏻♂️ it’s great
I don’t know if you own limitless or not, but if you do, please do these release tests with it
Limitless is also has two stage release,
that should be fun😅😅😅
And for audition feature, if you using L2 as a clipper, you can assure that you’re clipping just transient stuff not sustain and musical stuff, it’s just a use case so whatever😁
Great stuff be well🤍👌🏻
Thanks for watching mate!! Will definitely check out limitless.
@@panorama_mastering i second Limitless! It also has a great clipper section apart from the 2 stages of limiting.
Also the Newfangled Elevate is a very interesting one (and it also has a clipper stage :-)