COFFEE SCIENCE - The Best Water For Espresso
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- When it comes to espresso, water is about 90% of what ends up in your cup. So it makes sense that if you're a serious coffee person or a barista you'll want pay a bit of attention to that ingredient. Considering how many videos I've done about espresso its kind of amazing that I haven't really covered water yet. So this week I put an end to that by putting three of the most popular coffee waters to the test; Third Wave Water, Perfect Coffee Water, and filtered spring water.
↓CHAPTERS↓
[0:00] INTRO
[1:02] SPONSOR
[1:44] TESTING PARAMETERS
[2:28] TASTING & EVALUATION
[4:44] FINAL THOUGHTS
↓TRY THEM YOURSELF↓
- Perfect Coffee Water: perfectcoffeewater.com
- Third Wave Water: thirdwavewater.com
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↓THE MUSIC↓
Falling - Phury
#espresso #barista #sprometheus
Lol Little Red Riding Hood wasn't the one who wanted things 'just right,' that's goldilocks 😁
I use a BWT water filter for my filter coffee and espresso, which supposedly adds magnesium. Not sure how much it actually improves coffee flavor, but it's significantly tastier than our regular tap water.
Haha yeah I realized that, but I feel like as a 35 year old with no kids I’m okay not remember those things
BWT is the way to go. I use it to protect against limescale mostly.
Big fan of Perfect Coffee Water - I’ve been using them for years and their team is great.
I’ve heard that brewing with tears of unicorns guarantee perfect extraction and taste
I honestly just liked the part where you flexed those Q grader muscles with really in depth descriptions. No matter how casual you are, it reminded me that you seriously know your stuff.
Dope vid
I would like to see a similar test to this one, but brewing with a Flair manual espresso machine, that way you could pull shot after shot, switching the water being used and having three cups on the table to taste. Nice video!
Hey.
This is a very important topic, thanks for the video about it.
For sure! Glad I finally got around to it myself! Thanks for watching!
I'm also a fan of PCW, but buying it and distilled water just got complicated and expensive. Now I use 0.57g Epsom salt and 0.57g baking soda in a gallon of my RO water (20-25 TDS) and it always comes out to between 150-155 TDS. It's WAY cheaper and I'm not lugging around plastic jugs from the store.
Interesting! I’m a little weary of making my own water, but I’m surprised to see how many people are doing it!
I would say if you use one of those packet to dissolve in distilled water, get yourself one of those slim fridge 1.25 gallon dispenser with spout and giant twist top opening. Easier to dispense the right amount for filter coffee as well, also easier to shake and mix up the packet, the bigger hole makes it easy to pour both the liquid and the powder, less chance of shaking things out too. I do find the powder dissolves better when you put it in the dispenser first and just chug a whole gallon in, use a spatula and stir.
I’m in Switzerland and we genuinely have some pretty tasty tap water. I use that in conjunction with a BWT Cartridge filter, which I believes reduces limestone and adds some Magnesium
Hey AnJoMa, I live in Switzerland too, I use tap water and a Brita water filter tp brew filter and/or espresso.
All I know is that in my city we have pretty hard water. And I tasted some pretty big differences depending on location with the same filter,
@@silvioniklaus701 Interesting, I never actually tried to use and taste test different waters. We have pretty hard water here too, so could be worth a shot to just see the difference at some point. But from a convenience and ecological standpoint I know I'll never move away from tap water
I bet the water from the river stream in your backyard is better than any water out there :)
Great video, don't underestimate the power of water! I put just a little baking soda ( 0,1 - 0,2 gram) directly into the coffe puck, you will have to lower the dosage of coffee or grind a bit coarser. Especially with light roasts will it take the acidity away and enhance the crema.
Great video! One of the most important but often overlooked variables! I'd love to see another video focused on making your own water with baking soda and epsom salt for those of us that want customizable water for cheaper than the packets. I use an inbetween of the BH and Scott Rao recipe. Also, would there have been differences in the dark roast if you lower the temp? Isn't around 195 the general recommendation?
Also, don't forget the importance of water not just on your shot, but the maintenance of your machine! Using good water is essentially a preventative measure for scale buildup, especially in smaller thermoblock systems.
In between Barista Hustle and Rao? Intriguing. Mind sharing your recipe? I used a pinch of Baking Soda to one cup today in our very hard, filtered water and was amazed at how much better and less bitter the shots were.
Maybe I missed something, but are you using the perfect coffee water with tap water? Or bottled water?
Thanks!
Tim
Great informative video 👍🏼
Thanks for watching!
Japan's water is already very soft, 100ppm. I bought a doodad to test it before I thought about getting speciality water mineral bags. If I went back to the UK I would switch it up. Thanks for another useful video!
I love the tap water we get in Vancouver BC.
Nice test!
Thank you my friend, I appreciate you watching and the kind comment!
This is useful. I live rural and my water is collected from the roof and stored in tanks. This results is zero mineral content and slight acidity. So I'm always looking for ways to add minerals.
Do you think your preference would change on a different grinder? Seems the flavor profile on flat burs might be different than conical.
A very interesting comparison! I´ve been using TWW throughout 2021 although it gets seriously expensive!
Yeah I can see that, in the end any of the options will cost you a decent amount. But it’s less than a full decals or boiler replacement.
@@Sprometheus get zero water jug, make your own 0 tds water (distilled) then add this- 17 ppm Ca/ 23 ppm Na and 144 ppm Mg, now you have your TWW water made really really cheap
Thank you for this video!! Love the spirit :) Do you know the mineral compositions of the waters you tested? Maybe not for TWW nor PWC but for filtered water?
You’re welcome and thanks for watching. I did find a site that listed the mineral composition for the filtered water, it seemed legit but the company themselves don’t publish them in full, but the site that has them is www.mineral-calculator.com/compare-waters
I remineralized distilled using sodium bicarbonate and magnesium sulfate. I Don't use concentrates but instead use micro measuring spoons. No calcification so no decalcifier needs to be run through my profitec. Approx .26g sodium bicarb and .22g mag sulfate, for what's known as 70/30 water.
Bravo and superbly done, very impressive, you covered all the bases . Thank you for all the testing and hard work, I greatly appreciate it.
Love your videos, this was a super interesting test and result! You are definitely challenges some of my assumptions. My biggest question is, "Is Perfect Coffee Water safe for my espresso machine?" I'm still on the scared side, and willing to sacrifice a smidge (but only a smidge!) for machine health and longevity. My next thought is wondering how they might compare if you were to optimize each for taste - for example grinding a bit finer / longer brew times on the TWW and comparing at similar extraction yields, rather than based on the same parameters. Definitely would be a harder test, but I wonder if the results would be any different.
I was told by La Marzocco in boldface, all capital letters NOT to use PCW in my Linea Classic EE as it is corrosive. They recommended TWW at half strength or or Crystal Geyser, but only Crystal Geyser from California or South Carolina.
I found if you're using TWW, it's best to let it sit overnight to fully dissolve. I also had poor results by trying to shake until mixed and brewing immediately. Hope this tip helps for anyone using TWW
I did end up letting it sit overnight as well since I did the filtered water on day one. It was a little better, but still some visible crumbs in the water.
I also dilute it to 40-50ppm with reverse osmosis filtered water (distilled water works too). Non-diluted TWW has about 160ppm which is just too much I think.
@@Sprometheus mmm...crumb water
I place a few cups of RO water in a pot and warm it on the stove to assist in dissolving TWW. The resulting concentrate is then added to the rest of the gallon of RO water and stirred to homogeneity. No visible particles remain at the end of this process.
Do you think your results would apply the same to pour over? Would PCW win out for V60?
You should deliver the ppm of each water. The minerals content is really important to be considered.
You can also separately taste water. The one which tastes like 'fresh good water', of course in subjective way, is often the best for the espresso or pour overs. Or in other words, if e.g. you have the luxury having fresh alpine water at your disposal, OMG, the alpine water tastes so much better than any or most supermarket filtered water options, TW, etc. and lead to so much better coffee brews, be it espressos or pour overs.
I tried 3rd wave water, mixed it with a gallon of distilled water. Shook and mixed it well. The taste in the cup was overwhelming of distilled water making it difficult to pick up any flavors let alone nuances of the cup.
I wound up pouring the cup out and changing the water back to Crystal Geyser.
This is great research. I wonder what PCW shows on one of the inexpensive water tasters. I wonder what's the best inexpensive test to analyze water we have at home.
Your water supplier should be able to provide an analysis, as a starting point. Mine is available online.
I was using Third Wave for a while, but after my own side by side comparisons (which was a lot of fun!) I switched to Perfect as well. I think it’s interesting how it made fruit notes pop but still kept a big mouth feel. But also as you said, I think it’s completely subjective and I’m sure there’s just as many people that would pick Third Wave. Panna is also excellent in the bottled water realm.
Lighting is very good in this video. Have you changed your setup?
sprometheus videos are how I tell it's actually friday
A little worried about scale issues in the machine using PCW because of the calcuim. How is yours doing? I have a brevile dual boiler so its a nightmare to scale so i try and use TWW Espresso profile but i use PCW for filter as fine TWW too acid forward. Would really prefe using PCW for espresso too though.
Sorry for the off topic question, but what are the shot glasses used in this video. Thks
Hi did you mix those two solutions in RO water or the Crystal Geyser. I just got a RO unit and wanted to see what is the best solution to mix it with
Hey Spro! Did you use TWW in conjunction with distilled water?
Is de ionised water ok, rather than distilled?
I’ve used de ionised with the Barista Hustle water recipe.
I’ve never compared it to other methods such as the ones shown. Would be interesting.
I’ve used TWW filter, it’s good.
But I’ve found better success blending my own water at home.
It’s more cost effective as well.
I've been making my own water, you will find that water with a higher alkalinity will "buffer" some acidity from coffees, giving way to more rounded extractions
That would just be one more thing I’d have to be meticulous about, I don’t think I could do it. I need to have some free time, haha.
Daniel, can you share your water recipe? Since day 1 with my espresso machine I've been making my own brew water as well (recipe from WLL).
Rpalvis is the easiest to do as it is just one ingredient. .38g sodium bicarbonate per 1gal distilled
@@ethiopianbuffman Thanks, haven't heard of that recipe. I will read about it.
@@Sprometheus honestly it’s supereasy. Gagne has a calculator to make a single concentrate with Epsom salt and baking soda. You simply add 4 grams of that concentrate to a liter of distilled water. That’s it.
What are your thoughts on rpavlis water? Uses only potassium bicarbonate. Curious to hear your thoughts vs the commercial mineral blends.
am I understanding this correctly? exact same shot time/ratio/yield for all the different roasts? I never pulled a light roast for 25s and not had it be sour- typically I need a higher ratio/yield
I just used a bench top water filter that uses an activated charcoal element and filter my tap water.
Nooooo, my TWW was in last place 😭 I haven’t noticed a difference between it and my fridge filtered water. I mainly use it to keep my profitec as safe as “good” water can protect it. Sucks that PCW is $24 for 15!! Very enlightening video tho, thank you!
Haha well it’s a subjective test, so it all is based on my own opinion, but yeah they are a little more expensive. My guess is because they don’t have the same exposure, I had never heard of them until I posted about trying TWW.
PCW is safe to use in Espresso Machines and it's cheaper if you subscribe or go the 5 Galllon setup route.
I was told by La Marzocco in boldface, all capital letters NOT to use PCW in my Linea Classic EE as it is corrosive. They recommended TWW at half strength or or Crystal Geyser, but only Crystal Geyser from California or South Carolina.
La Marzocco recommends Aqua Panna, and they explain why in the manual.
Which TWW profile were you using? the classic one is based on SCA recommendation which has low buffer for espresso (40ppm as CaCO3). Didn't find the PCW alkalinity but as your test shows that is similar to Crystal Geyser in acidity, I think it's sth about 80ppm (CG has 86). Even though PCW is tasty for espresso but stay away from it as it has so much Chlorine ions. TWW uses Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Citrate instead of Chlorides which are safer options. Even as low as 1 ppm of chlorine can damage your machine in long run. La Marzocco suggests less than 0.1ppm of Chlorine as it's corrosive even to stainless steel.
I'm curious to know which spring source your Crystal Geyser comes from? As la marzocco only recommends two of their spring sources in CA. Here in Texas the Crystal Geyser's spring source is Norman, AR. which seems to be way off in terms of acceptable mineral content. I just ordered an ECM machine and I just want an easy choice for bottled water as the TDS of my tap water is over 350 and I don't even think something like a BWT Penguin can fix that. Considering Volvic or Poland Spring.
Yeah here in San Diego it’s from a spring in California. At least for the last few years.
@@Sprometheus thanks for letting me know. Probably going to go with Poland spring or Volvic here. Tested tap water and it’s 508ppm 😑
I used to use filtered water. Now I just use tap water, which in my area is relatively quite hard. Somehow the coffee is less bitter so I wonder maybe I just get PCW tap by coincident 😅
To each their own, around here (Southern California) I wont let my machine even see the tap water, haha.
PCW does taste better, but after some back and forth with the manufacturer, they admitted that if you use their mix, you should regularly descale your machine. Also the chlorides make it unsuitable for use in machines with brass or copper boilers due to corrosion concerns. Overall I don’t think it’s a great option for espresso given the maintenance requirements
I'm lucky to live someplace with spring water from the tap. Needs to be filtered due to high calcium but it tastes great in coffee and I don't want to try one of these options and realize I like it better. Enough of a hastle already. I get around 150 tds that way, I think that's fine. But I only have cheapo tds meter.
You’re lucky if you can just filter your tap water and it’s coffee ready, a lot of places can’t do that.
@@Sprometheus Yeah I always wondered why people insist on water but I grew up spoiled with alpine spring water from the tap. Brita takes it down to 150 tds and removes some unpleasantness which might be the descaler in this house.
Wanting to test it I can get better results for pour over than our tap+Brita water, I picked up Crystal Geyser at the store without really any clue if it would be a good choice. Sounds like it is! One thing, the TDS is a bit higher than what we get with Brita, about 180ppm vs 120. Do you think this is fine? I was considering possibly diluting it with some distilled water.
I use BWT Filtered Water System
Love your video’s! Thank you! Is it ok to use distilled water in the Mini with the PCW packets? Could I use bottled Spring water instead or is distilled the best option?
Thanks Troy. If you’re going to use PCW or any mineral additive you’ll want to use water that’s been stripped of most or all of its minerals, like distilled. Using spring water that has a good amount of minerals in it already will overload your water with minerals that will effect the taste and likely scale up your machine.
I would actually recommend against using PCW in an espresso machine as jt gets its hardness from calcium and magnesium *chloride*. Chloride will damage your boiler. This is why TWW has a different recipe for espresso and brewing.
If you're OK with the damage and eventual repair costs for the sake of flavor carry-on, it would be FAR from the strangest thing we do to achieve better results.
Would descaling alleviate that problem?
@@cheekster777 the problem isn't scale from minerals, it's the chlorides corroding the metal from the boilers
@@cheekster777 some machines shouldn’t be descaled by the average consumer, like dual boilers. Planning for not having to descale is best.
why do you call the spring water filter water? do you pass through a filter?
When you use something like perfect coffee water in an espresso machine, do you leave the water filter in the tank?
I have a breville dual boiler and I can't figure out what water to use to save my life
Can you compare Geyser vs PCW against Barista Hustle's recipe?
Interesting, I haven't heard of having too much minerals being detrimental to the taste, but just thought it was bad for espresso machines (contributing to scale buildup).
I was thinking your temp was a bit high for a dark roast, I thought maybe the Third wave water was somehow more affected by the temp. But then with the light roast, if the temp was too high it shouldn't have been sour. I stick around a 200f brew temp for medium and even light roasts, usually. But your machine is different than mine.
Damn I just bought a bunch of Potassium Bicarbonate thinking it would be better than Sodium Bicarbonate in coffee water :p From my experiment with it, I too didn't enjoy the results.
I thought maybe i just needed to tweak the amount, or add some magnesium or something else (regular salt?) as well to make it work.
i am afraid Spro havn't dailed in with tww well enough...
@@Jason-lp1rx yeah I'm sure you can get better results tweaking the recipe or temps as usual but interesting the other options turned out different with the same settings.
Have you heard that if you have a machine with PID that you shouldn’t use water packets such as TWW/PCW or others? There is one distributers who repairs espresso machines that did a video that stated it will cause harm to machines that have PID’s. Do you have any information to offer about this claim?
do i just use regular mineral water when adding in pcw or do i use distilled water?
You are suppose to use distilled water
Would be interesting to see what difference Perfect Coffee Water would make when used with R0 (Reverse Osmosis) water?
*Edit:* You used it in distilled water, which is different to R0 water.
I’d be curious as well, but they do recommend using it in distilled water. I think anything else would disrupt the mineral balance they were going for.
For the TWW & PWC, are you just dissolving in distilled water or in the Crystal Geyser?
In distilled water, it would be a mineral overload in the CG.
@@Sprometheus thanks, that’s what I figured. Please do one with Gatorade next - for the electrolytes obviously! (JK)
@@michaeltran623 electrolytes, it’s what the plants crave.
can you try BWT penguin water as a comparator please?
is this 24fps? [around 0:57]
Goldilocks...not Red Riding Hood...thx for info about water
Thanks spro. Love this Any experience with something like the Brita jug?
Idk why, but parts of this test feel a little bit biased. For instance, the sour taste in light roasts typically would mean that a shot was pulled for too long. Yet all of the shots from perfect coffee water had perfectly balanced flavors in their own regards. So it wasn't pulled for too long?
Am I crazy, or isn't things like sourness something that just happens from longer shots with lighter roasts? Same with a bunch of other details, I'm just sticking with my example. I suppose I don't get the "one water fits all", which should have different things like shot timing for some types of coffee, but they were all pulled for the same amount of time. Things like shot timing never are a one size fits all, so I don't see how one type of water (all other variables being the same), consistently gets the desired outcome of every roast type, when none of the others could.
Is there something I am misunderstanding about this whole thing? Was the coffee a blind taste test? I just can't figure out how the outcome was what it was.
Higher temp would possibly make the darker roasts more bitter, but generally you want to extract lighter roasts at higher temps or they're usually more sour / acidic.
So It's a bit surprising that it would be sour still. Shorter shot with a light roast will also be sour, longer should be more balanced, too long more bitter or just weaker / watered down maybe.
@@BensCoffeeRants I typically use lighter roasts, because I prefer the fruity taste they have. When it comes to shot timing, you're half right, the only thing I disagree with is the sourness part. Light roasts start out bitter like every other roast, but they start out weaker generally speaking, and that weakness is what causes them to be sour earlier on.
Regardless though, you saw what confused me right? The results of the test just felt a little biased.
@@joev3783 I dunno. Results are kinda surprising yeah, my buddy seems to like the third wave water. I haven't tried any of them myself yet. But Might be worth trying ourselves with different brew variables with the coffees you like to see what works best.
@@BensCoffeeRants True.
I didn't watch the whole video, how did he flush out the old water in the reservoir and that would takes days. too many bs
Is perfect coffee water safe to use in an espresso machine when mixed with 0ppm RO water? I just bought a Rancilio Pro X. I want to take care of it and prevent scale in the boilers. I saw the Rancilio website recommended TWW and also there is a very vague warning on the PCW website about using it with espresso machines. 🤔
According to PCW it’s safe, but I found scale in my machine after six months and began to experiment with TWW and overtime was happier with it.
@@Sprometheus Thank you for the reply, that's great to know. I'll try TWW espresso profile then!
I almost have a heart attack when he sets the cup down on the book 1:32. Respect your books that should not be done. ☕📖
I live life on the edge
Can you provide a link for perfect coffee water....Google and Amazon don't like that search query lol
Yeah the link is in the video description
@@Sprometheus yeah, of course it is 😂😂 I clearly need my espresso this morning!!
What about filter coffee ?
I use double filtered tap water. As I live in an area with very hard water filtering it once doesn’t sufficiently reduce the calcium in the water. To be honest, I don’t taste a difference though. I just do it to treduce the frequency of descaling. Tried brewing with Volvic which apparently has a better ability to buffer sourness in coffee just for the sake of experientation both for filter coffee and for espresso for some time as well, but I didn’t taste much of a difference so I switched back to the environmental friendliest solution available to me.
anyone mix Evian with filtered water?
I personally buy water bottles because I don't trust my tap water cleanliness. I once used my tap water and my coffee had a hint of metallic flavour, I was genuinely concerned and threw away the water.
It's interesting that the latest Morning Routine videos show you using Third Wave Water. Why the change?
Perfect Coffee Water developed scale in my machine in under 6 months. So I switched over and toyed around with different options, even blending their packets but eventually landed on the espresso profile for the long term reliability of my equipment and just adjusted my dial-ins to make up for the taste difference I experienced.
also becareful using chlorides inside of your boiler, they can be corrosive
Perfect Coffee Water is safe to use in espresso machines! It's about the balance of the mineral profile. You should always do the manufacturers recommended maintenance and cleaning but Perfect Coffee Water is safe to use in machines.
@@KingGarrettVideos yeah I have no reservations about using it. Honestly, putting any water in your machine will result in some kind of negative consequence, it’s like saying don’t go outside cause the sun might burn you. It’s all about mitigation.
looking how irrationaly expensive these products are (for what they provide) and knowing the ingredients list one cannot wonder if it is possibile to create a DIY version of these powders ?
You can do it DIY, but too much and your machine will scale up and too little it’ll cause corrosion. I’d rather trust a company that did the research pay a little bit more for that piece of mind and focus on making the coffee
Oh snap! Dark horse coffee is my local go to for beans!
I wish you kept distilled as a control
Why add your own cheap metal ions to your brew water when you can pay top dollar to PCW or TWW for no better effect?
Goldilocks...
That’s the one. I’m Goldilocks.
@@Sprometheus You're awesome! Thanks for your great videos!
@@chuckbrodsky1479 thank you my friend, I appreciate you watching and taking the time to comment!
I think the common knowledge is to use TWW at half strength.
Never heard this, but I think if something is going to be tested it should be by the manufacturers recommendations.
@@Sprometheus agreed, but you might still give it a try 🤷♂️
@@Sprometheus La Marzocco recommends TWW at half strength. I have it in writing from them! They also adamantly state that PCW is corrosive and not to use it.
2:42 bring on that sexy, sexy data!
Pony Boy?
...what's a "Pony Boy" and why'd you call me that...?
The thing about spring water is there are large differences in mineral content between different brands. Evian, volvoic and supermarket own brand.