Forza Motorsport 7 Investigation - Do Rear Wings Help FWD Cars ?
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
- Does a rear wing help a FWD car ? Despite there being a fair amount of evidence that it does people still like to tell me that it won't, so i set out to find just what it does on Forza 7.
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When you're drag racing wheelie bars also help front wheel drive cars. The way it works is actually simple. When any car launches the load on the front shifts towards the back. On a rear wheel drive car this helps by giving the rear tires more traction but on a front wheel drive car this takes traction away. So the purpose of the wheelie bar is to stop the load from shifting to the back. Racers do this by setting the bars no more than 2 inches from the ground because a little bit of the load shifting is good and too little load shift can be bad. So when the back of the car starts to take load during launching the wheelie bar stops it which then of course forced the load to stay on the front of the car which helps give them more traction and launch faster.
''alex is ricer'' comment
Oh really? hmmmmmmmmmmm?
if irl touring cars are anything to go by then they should do.
Can u make a video about locking fwd diff?
The thing I have trouble with is not a rear wing on a FWD car, but a rear wing on a slow FWD car, or even a slow RWD car. Aerodynamics are all well and good if you plan to go fast, as no matter your drive train, you still need that stability, which is the entire purpose of aerodynamic devices in the first place, trade off a bit of top end and drag for a better control and stability at speed.
In case you have not noticed, or played any games/sims, F1 cars seem to be able to take corners incredibly quickly, BUT they are also known for not being very nimble at low speeds, where their fancy wing assembly's do them little good. High end performance cars and race cars use aero devices as they actually go fast enough for them to matter, but if you never go past 60 in your civic on the freeway, there really is no point, you are just making yourself look silly.
This is coming from a diehard racing fan since birth, who has a decent amount of knowledge about cars, BUT if there is anything I am missing or have TOTALLY wrong, feel free to tell me, as I still ain't no rocket scientist.
There are cars out there, primarily estate cars, that use a wing to decrease the backdraft created by the car, wich in turn decreases the amount of dirt and mud that stick to the rear window.
No matter what drivetrain the car uses.
Designed for legal speeds, I suppose
Depending on how it looks, a real rear wing can improve the look of a car, if that's what a person wants. But more on the point, it's not because you have a Civic that you can't take it to a track day. It's still a lot of fun, and even some stock 201X Civic could benefit from having a rear wing. The reason F1 cars are so twitchy in tight and slow corners is mainly down to 2 things : They are extremely long cars, and they have an awful lot of power. They still have more mechanical grip than any other racecar on the road, regardless of aerodynamic properties. Sure, on a tight corner where you're going at 30-40 mph at most in a car, the rear wing won't be much use, but it can still help stabilize the car at high speed and under acceleration. That's if you get a real rear wing, not just a decoration that you see on civics all the time, which provide only extra drag and virtually no benefits in terms of downforce.
I like water
if someone puts a MASSIVE, Rockstar GTA levels of wang then yeah, he's a dumbass for putting it on his stock MX-5, but if it's a spoiler like some low end civics (Like an Si) then that does help drag, aero and fuel efficiency.
In the context of Forza, the few times I'll run a lower-class car slapping a wing and front aero on a car is good for knocking some excess PI off the car, letting me put some more work into the engine, brakes, or tires.
I also like to tune, and it's just a habit of mine to min or max the aero on most vehicles. Lower PI, I'll drop the aero as low as possible, because I'll gladly take that extra 1/10th of a second it might give me. Conversely, high PI cars will usually get maxed or near-maxed aero because I've learned over the years that maintaining corner speed is probably the most important part of defending.
Thank you for making this. Just as needed like when Devon made his video showing that powershifting on Forza isn’t “shifting wrong”. I have a slight suspicion that most people saying “rear wings on FWD don’t do anything” either haven’t played Forza or lack some strength in terms of logical thinking OSsloth
I don't put aero on anything with less than 200hp.
just to add, that toyota (the eagle mkIII) also used a front diffuser, giving a mass of front downforce, hence massive cornering speeds
Love love love Failrace investigates
Believe it or not wings don't do a great deal for downforce in real life, you'll get a lot more from smoothing and controlling the airflow under your car than you will from bolting a wing on because it all comes down to surface area. While there are some fairly mighty wings available they just can't compete with the big wing shaped thing they're bolted to in terms of surface area and this is where the true downforce comes from (lift/downforce = differential pressure between two connected surfaces), wings develop negative lift but because they are smaller they can only really be used for adjusting the front to rear balance. If we look at real world time attack cars we can get a bit of an idea of just how big the front and rear wings actually have to be to generate meaningful downforce at relatively low speed and then conversely just how much power is needed to overcome the generated drag of such large wings and flaps.
If anyone is interested in learning more the KYLE.ENGINEERS youtube channel has some wonderful explanations of how it all works and why different types of motorsport use different approaches to smoothing and harvesting all the airflow over the vehicle.
Anonnymouse Hacker My understanding is that it depends on the speed you're driving at. The super serious autocross folks tend to run those absurdly large wings because they're running at much lower speeds than if they were on a circuit.
Anonntmouse Hacker - Multiple small wings work the same way as one big wing by providing more surface area but the downside is the extra drag caused by a larger frontal area, its kind of like a bi-plane compared to a modern delta wing jet, one can take off at 50mph but is drag limitted to sub 200mph speeds whereas the other needs to be going at 200mph to take off but can travel at a much greater top speed because it creates less drag. In the case of things like F1 front wings the multiple elements are essentially vortex generators which help to disrupt and channel air over the rest of the car rather than generating downforce themselves, the larger sections at the bottom are where the downforce adjustment comes from.
Michael W - Yes, the faster you're going the more airflow you've got going over the wing and the more downforce you will get. The wings are huge and overextend the body of the car by a long way because that is what is necessary for generating meaningful downforce at lower speeds although I'm not sure that it would be applicable for autocross due to the need for close control and (ie. if your chin spoiler is a foot wider and longer than the front of your car then you're going to collect an awful lot of cones). Have a quick google for a time attack car called the RP968 and you'll see what is necessary to generate real downforce at normal car speed, it's quite the beast.
I believe fan assisted downforce (which I'll assume you mean by ground effect) is banned based on track safety regulations because of potential speed increase and the all-or-nothing nature of the approach. Competitive time attack cars are required to run on a multitude of circuits which will have been built with a certain amount of run-off or gravel traps based on the expected speed of the corner, while some tracks may have plenty of room to handle cars suddenly taking low speed corners at much greater speeds without excessive risk that's not true of them all and the safety regulations must be put in place to cater for all scenarios.
The dangerous part of fan assisted downforce is that it requires the car to remain relatively level while cornering, if the skirts are lifted too high then the low pressure zone collapses and the downforce is lost instantly, this can happen very easily if a driver turns in too soon an clips the inside curb. The danger is essentially that you've safely entered a corner designed to catch cars leaving the track at 50mph at over 80mph and following to a small mistake you're now heading towards the crash barrier with limitted control and insufficient space to slow down.
Ahh ok, my mistake. The point of a flat floor is indeed to utilise ground effect but the most common styles found on time attack cars are a more modern variant of the ideas pioneered in the 70s using side skirts. While the side skirt method is still entirely viable it does have a few drawbacks that make it less than ideal for hard lapping, the main problem is the same as mentioned in the post about fan assisted cars in that if the skirt gets lifted the low pressure zone collapses and all downforce is lost, whether this be through clipping curbs or just pitch induced by acelerating/decelerating/cornering. The other problem is that the low pressure zone (max downforce) usually ends up quite far forward of the centre of gravity with this design which will make the car very front end dominant and therefore will be twitchy at speed while struggling to put the power down through the rear wheels.
Because the skirted car needs to be flat to keep the air under the car you have very little opportunity for balance adjustment and this is where the modern variant is superior. The modern variant is a non skirted flat floor that is raked slightly forward (floor of car is higher at rear than front) for most of the cars length before opening dramatically from around the point of the rear axle backwards. The advantage here is that the low pressure zone is more central to the car and can be further adjusted front to rear by raising or lowering the front or rear ride height to increase or decrease the rake of the floor.
Aerodynamics is a fascinating subject because there is still a hint of magic and mystery to it, even the guys who are at the top of their field will admit that they don't entirely understand how it works. Bernoulli's principle (high speed fluid = low pressure / low speed fluid = high pressure) is still taught as the basic understanding of how wings work because it makes just enough sense but when tested in the real world the figures just doesn't add up so there is obviously something else going on that nobody has quite figured out
*riced out civic intensifies
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
haven't tried it yet in 7 but if you ran a fwd car in A class in Forza 6 a wing benefited you a lot for more stability in the corners because without it the rear starts lifting off on hard braking and anything to keep the rear planted was great. least that's how it was on the civic ek
Enjoyed the informative video man 😎💪
I'm not sure it was really informative, but just reinforcing something that should already be common knowledge.
reAr wINgS dON't hELp fRoNT wHEel DRive cARs
Sure dude! That's why high performance fwd race cars have them. Just for deco. Totally agree!
Ali Musa Mamman he was mocking the pepole who say that
I learned something today
Ooh, Alex is salty in this one! :D
I jest. I'm assuming that this is a criticism of road cars, specifically hot hatches and (Japanese) FWD sedans, which can be bought from the factory with rear wings, plus those that modify FWD road cars by including rear wings. Why this criticism has been applied to race cars I haven't a clue.
I saw a meme, just the other day, which read: "Rear wing on a FWD... Because race car!" I couldn't tell whether it was throwing shade on this person's car because it wasn't a race car or whether it was generally poking fun at the concept of FWD race cars, especially those with aero. I'm even more suspicious now.
Its not a criticism of the cars themselves. Clearly. Its a criticism of the ignorance and stubbornness of some people.
raregliscor1 Yeah, I worded that badly--I got the gist that it was criticizing a person's choices. However, isn't that just splitting hairs when the reason for criticizing would be something wrong with the car?
raregliscor1 so someone preference is ignorism ? Maybe they like the look of it? Stop judging and acting like you're on a high horse.
No one is forcing you to put on a wing. This is about the ignorance of people who think it isn't beneficial. I'm not judging anyone. Nor am I on a high horse. You should stop being false.
Track day bro!
Mighty wing bias confirmed
I don't understand the argument at all in this one. Grip doesn't have a whole lot to do with your drivetrain, so why would a FWD car not benefit from having downforce on the rear? The friction is going to increase regardless of whether those wheels happen to have a motorized axle.
Alex does the rear wing on a front wheel drive car cause it to turn in worse?I dont know how the physics work so I want to know
While the answer is technically yes, the extra grip is still greatly appreciated the slightly worse turn in is usually counteracted by the weight shift in the braking zone.
The wing putting more weight on the rear both through downforce and its mass also helps the car stop faster, as the rear wheels can be utilised more under braking.
theoretically, if you don't adapt the front, yes(going out from a world where the stifness of the shocks is 100%). Cars are made to understeer, because that is "safer". How can you get rid of understeer, without changing anything to the car? by placing a weight on the front, so you get more grip.(Understeed is when your front loses grip, oversteer is when your rear loses grip). By adding downforce on the rear, you are "placing" more weight on the rear(not physical weight, but if you would place the car on a scale, set it to zero, and then let air rush over it, you can see the downforce in kilograms), so with adding weight to the back, you lower the back of the car, which naturally lifts the front. If you lift the front up, you get less contact patch(the area from the tyre that makes contact with the road), so you are going to have less grip, and thus, have more understeer.
But because we don't live in a world where shocks have a stiffness of 100%(luckely), if you don't over"load" the rear, not a lot will happen to your steering. Your car is normally a little bit pitched forward(so your front is lower than the back). If you get your trunk filled up with bricks, you might get your car levelled. So the weight balance doesn't really change a lot, okay, the back will be heavier than before, but the front won't lose a lot of weight. If you go over the level point(so your car is pitched backwards), you are going to take weight off the front, and put it on the back, and then you will notice a difference in steering.
So, long story short, theoretically, your turning will get worse, in reality, especially for everyday driving, you won't notice a lot. In racing, you use front splitters, vortex generators, and other fancy stuff, to make sure the airflow is smooth, and to get the perfect weight balance. For that reason, I wouldn't recommend going to a track day with a front wheel drive car, and the only tuning you did is adding a rear wing.
BTW, a roof mounted rear wing won't add downforce, unless it is attached to the chassis, if you just bolt it onto the body work, the flex of the body work, will take away any downforce created, the same counts for every downforce creating object on the car(front splitter, diffuser, rear wing), only if it is attached to the chassis, it will work.
yes
Ricers Redeemed
Wasn't this at one point infineon
yeah, then they changed the name of the track for some reason.
Infineon was a sponsor until 2006 or so. (ex. Lowe's Motor Speedway)
Since there hasn't been a sponsor, they named the track after the location - Sonoma mountains. It was Sears Point (a peak in the Sonoma mtns) before Infineon.
There is a whole video on this watch?v=If4SNLi42MA
You'll see some Civics do under a minute laps. watch?v=aEEyX9V4I88
I don't put wings on FWD cars because in my opinion I think they look stupid.
First
First!
Please stop with the camera im gonna puke ..
Fahot you are soft stop whining
Nf TT10 okey :'(