One thing that bugs me is the dangling of the carrot. I’ve been told for 10 years I’m almost there. But never what I need to do. Now I just fight for fun. I’m to old to care.
One of the things I see as an issue is how the new people are treated. I have been in the SCA on and off since 1977. New people used to be welcomed in, helped to participate, never judged, and included. What I see now is events where the period tents are in one area and the non-period tents are way away at the far end of the site. I understand period tents around the list field but this is not that. We are talking deliberate segregation of people with less ability or desire to fully immerse themselves in the SCA. In Ansteorra, this seemed to begin in the early eighties. Titles, rather than being lived up to, became something to lord over with. The group became more than a hobby for people, it became their means of defining themselves. As such, where they were in a pecking order became their paramount priority. This was when the period nazis and garb shammers first began. Prior to that, we had events like "Elf Stomp" where there was noting period about the event at all. Maybe I am just a stick jock but I miss the easy joviality and comradeship that a group of fighters has. I should also mention that I am one of those perpetual squires. I do not have the time to "Play the Game" and deal with all the sucking up required. I don't kiss ass at work and I won't for a hobby.
Yeah, but people who're breaking immersion with their tents (or garb) SHOULD be segregated! People spend a lot of money to have an immersed experience, and it probably shouldn't be sabotaged so that casual "ren-fair" types don't have to walk as far...
So, I'm just finding this video and replying super late, but here goes. I joined in Drachenwald while I was stationed in Germany. It was fantastic. There was nowhere where people weren't friendly and welcoming. When I got out of the military and came back to the states, I moved to the Kingdom of the MIddle. It was a different ballgame, but my new canton was extremely welcoming and I shortly became their first chatelaine. I can't say enough about how much fun I had in Drachenwald and the Middle. Eventually I moved to Ansteorra. While I did find a few people that I got along with...it never really felt like home. It felt like I was the outsider, and I was just never welcomed fully because I wasn't a "native son". This, as well as personal circumstances, caused me to stop having a desire to play anymore. Now, after having been out for almost a decade, I find myself wanting to pick it back up. I can't say I'd like it here anymore though.
I live in An Tir and I have to totally agree with what was said about the newcomers not being welcomed in. I have been back in my shire for 8 years and have never been able to go to any practices because I can’t get rides. I’ve been told that newbies aren’t allowed to get rides to practices and events. I think the best way to help improve the Sca is to get an official mentor system that newbies and people who move shires/ baronies can access easily and use to grow
I'm a Master-Artisan with the Pennsylvania Guild of Craftsmen. I am a sculptor. I have been selling my work since the early 80's mainly at Shows, Conventions, and The Pa. Ren Fair. I have been contemplating joining the SCA, but am not sure that I should. I do not care about accolades since my work has provided me that in the "real-world". I just want to have some fun, but it seems there is just too much crap in doing so. I will absolutely NOT compromise myself or my work for someone that thinks they are above me, as I am the "real-deal", not an "arts and crafter". I can be a team player but.. it is not in my nature to play "political games". Especially concerning my REAL trade of life. Sorry so long....Waddya think? would this work for me? I kind of think not, but I would value your opinion(s). TY
I've been a member since June of '89. And I've seen a lot of this. And yet... Yeah, there's cliques and other social foo. There is in any group consisting of more than two people. I've also been in church leadership (left the fundies, very happily Episcopalian now, which is a very different world), and it's very much the same. In fact, skills I've learned in both the SCA and church have been very useful in navigating a lot of human interaction, from SCA events to diocese convention to employment foo. Humans are humans, whatever context they're in. That said, a lot of things depend on your purpose and perspective. If you play just because you want a peerage, you are not going to have fun, and probably won't get that peerage. If you play because you enjoy what you're doing, and want to share that joy with others... you'll have a lot more fun. And if you get tapped for a peerage, that's cool. If you don't, you're still having fun. Your fun should not depend on letters after your name, but what you make of what is available to you. My oldest daughter is fighting heavy, and she's a squire. She really wants a white belt, but she recognizes that it's a lot harder for women fighters, and she recognizes that she's getting close to aging out (women age out quicker than guys- I think it is largely build/bone issues). She took time off to have a kid, which set her back a bit, but she figures the trade-off was worth it. At any rate, her enjoyment of fighting is not based on potential for getting a belt. It's because she likes fighting. And one of the most awesome and profound things I've ever heard in the SCA is when she said it was indescribably awesome to *get on the field and fight her childhood heroes.* She'd been watching these guys since she was 5. An as an adult, she could get on the field and play with them. Yeah, she mostly got pounded, but they were all happy to talk with her and give her tips and they were all happy that she had fun. It's just a blast to get on the field with Tjorkill or Greyhelm or Ambrose, and fight, and have fun. Where else can you grow up and play with people you admired since you were a little kid? I can't really speak to the Pelicanate as I'm not one, but I can tell you- the Laurels are more interested in watching process- people learning how to learn, finding joy in what they're doing, and teaching others. Like the Chiv, there is an element of skill that has to be accomplished. But what you do with that skill is just as important. Do you use it to be a snob? Or do you do stuff because it's cool and fun and you want to show everyone else this cool thing? I personally find a lot of joy is sharing cool stuff. I love teaching. I love dragging people in for dinner at Egils, for sharing things that can enhance an immersive experience. What it feels like to wear and move about in a period set of clothes. What it's like to sit down with a bowl of something yummy, listen to people talk about their craft, tell tales, sing, watch faces by torchlight... there's that frisson of pleasure at hearing someone armoring up on a chilly morning, that 'shhhoook' of chain mail, and the yell of shock from the cold metal. Or of falling asleep to the throb of drums on the other side of camp. I get a charge out of teaching someone how to read a recipe from a 600 year old text, and figure out how to cook it, even though there's no measurements, no temperature instructions, no timing but 'cook it untyl it be y-now'. It's finding the joy within yourself- and not measuring it by others. That's why I'm still playing, after 32 years. Yes, I've had my ups and downs. But it has been because I've found joy from my own deeds, and not depending on the approval of others. If you're interested in chatting further, Stelios, you know where to find me on Facebook. :-) -Liutgard
I love your positive outlook. However, no matter how much joy we find in creating and learning, we as humans want to have positive social interactions. A lot of us went in with your philosophy, were taken advantage of, used, and otherwise ignored when not convenient for those in charge of the activities. It's easy to say this doesn't matter if we enjoy the activity and love sharing our knowledge and talents. But it's more true that part of the joy is //sharing// - which means reciprocation in kind from the group, be it through honest words of thanks, returned favors when help is needed, or some form of official recognition for the hard work performed. Constantly being used is not fun, gets old fast, and spoils any joy we might have once had within our group.
I haven't found people to teach me anything , as I gave up my fighters spirit after the birth of my second child at 28. I'm 34 now and just sew and nalbind. I don't feel like I belong because most people at local barony events are 20+ years older and haven't been that welcoming. they just sit around and gossip about people and the kingdom politics like old biddies . I'm new and don't know anything or care about that, so I don't feel I belong
I'm a rapier fighter, the mod I was under scolded me for not bringing my gear to an event. He asked "What if I told you that you had to fight today?" That was the same event I stepped down as a cadet.
Dang, this video is 2 years old and still rings true. Personally I joined the SCA for the fighting as a primary means of motivating myself to hit the gym regularly. I only see 2 types of groups at wars: - Kingdom - Mercenary I am in a mercenary group because we play to have fun and we fight for whatever banner gives us the most beer and coin. It is has been the closest thing I have found to being in the military without most of the bullshit. I do try to hang out with some Kingdom groups but as was pointed out they can be elitist and unwelcoming to outsiders (or they dislike mercs). I am yet to visit another mercenary camp and not be welcomed with open arms and given a seat at the fire. The Kingdom groups need to act right before the SCA is just a bunch of mercenary groups trying to figure out how to start a war. Justinian of Black Company
I am glad to see Mercenary units. I started the 1st mercenary unit. We were in Caid the Barony of Angels. Your post is the very reason I created House Blackrune. A home for wayward mercenaries. I too was blackballed by the knights of the Kingdom. This was was 36 years ago. In that day the fighters all fought with the local baron who led the group in battle. Today that concept does not exist in Caid. But do not let the nay sayers get to you. My group grew to over a hundred members and several groups in Caid started in the Household. A few members have become peers and Barons. I became a general in the army of the White Lightning brigade then became 2nd in command under Count Balin for several years and eventually became the Captain General of Caid and commanded the western forces at Esrella. Even with all I achieved I am the ONLY non knight in the kingdom to command at this level. I may have been blackballed but I changed the SCA for the better and I feel that it is a cheep price to pay for others to have fun.
I stepped away after almost 20 years when I finally realized the chance for a white belt had nothing to do with my skill as a fighter or any of the actual knightly virtues purportedly espoused to be so important. Social politics clearly meant more than ability or character....I miss the people and the fighting to this day..I'll never miss what the organisation has become.
I know I am posting quite a few years after this was published but I know precisely what you are talking about. I autocrated 3 events and kept my local Province in a free weekly meeting space at a local community college for two years. When it was time for me to move on to other things, like transferring to a 4 year school, they blamed me for losing their meeting space, when the real issue was their unwillingness to recruit and groom another student to take my place. When the local Seneschal who originally worked with me was stepping down, she gave me an award for service. Immediately afterwards she was confronted within my earshot, by another member who opposed my getting an award. Years after I left, a friend of mine from another Shire, who had been a Kingdom level officer, was shocked to find out that after all I had done, that I had never been granted a simple Award of Arms. She was insistent that I let her know the next time I was coming to an event, so that she could tell the royals to recognize my efforts. I told her that I had no desire to ever attend an SCA event again. Admittedly I was not the most organized or socially adept person at the time; I was 18-20 years old and had ADHD. But the level of hostility and passive aggression I had to deal with was ridiculous.
Especially with 2020 Election. My political views are totally opposite to the majority of My SCA family espcaily in my home area Meridies and Ansteorra where I first joined. I have been ridiculed for my views by those I truly admire and those I don't. I ignore those who don't want to be civil and they are a small obnoxious bunch of (insert word here)
Hi there. I've watched all 3 of your videos on this and I feel a lot of it is still true. That said, I'm a relatively new member of SCA. I joined SCA rapier a little over a year ago. I got into it because I wanted to learn how to use a saber, and at the time there was no Saber study group so SCA rapier was the closest thing. Right off the bat, I noticed a lot of the politics, drama, and passive-aggressiveness within the SCA. I also felt that the SCA's representation of rapier was less than martial with weird rules like you can only cut if you do 6 inches of draw. Any sword, even rapiers, can cut percussively. Luckily, a few months after I got in, the nearby HEMA rapier and sidesword club inducted me into their group after seeing me in SCA, and soon after that the HEMA academy opened up a broadsword/saber study group that I am now a part of. I was very happy with the transition because there was less drama in those groups. I do still go back to SCA events, and it is only because some of the members in the rapier/sidesword group are relatively high ranking in the SCA and we just go to support them. But honestly, if I never went to another SCA event, it wouldn't bother me.
Sadly, with the way things are, covid, new groups forming and a rather stubborn populace when it comes to embracing change, the SCA may have a decade left...if it's lucky.
Hi Amanda with any large group issues can arise and they have. herbert is wrong though I know stelios and he speaks from his experiences and is talking about the issues he has delt with. The SCA is amazing and I love it for the different historical personas to just the fun people I get to hang out with. please do check out your local group I'm sure they would love to have you.
@SigmundFaust20 4 years later I've gone to a couple of my local SCA events. There's basically no one under 35 in my barony that I've met in person thats not a fighter , let alone has or brings kids. I'm a parent and it's not fun for my kids under 10 because they don't have a youth fight marshall. Most people are fighters or sewers/ weavers, most are over 50 years old. There's no kids unless the kingdom gets together for Lillies.
I joined the Sca in 1997 but left in 2003 only to rejoin in 2012. I am thinking of leaving again Simply because I’m not able to get rides to practices and have never been given a fair shot to get any training for jobs with the shire. If you’re from an outlying shire like I am you have no chance of getting a deputy job in the principality or kingdom without helping the shire first
Well, I am going to watch rapier for the first time on Thursday, and am very glad to have watched this series before. Thanks for posting it. Opinion: This club requires a lot of skill, strategy and talent lol.
I seem to have gotten rather lucky in the SCA thus far, been doing this for about 5 years now based in Æthelmearc and ive found nothing but welcoming folk and encouragment twords learning and being as active as your comfortable with. Granted at pennsic last year i came across one garb snob (she was drunk and didnt like the color of my tunic...or the fact that it was hand stitched i guess?) But otherwise i hit the jackpot
The reason is the authors of this crap channel are disgruntle twerps., I have been in the SCA for decades and have seen a slew of whiners that quit because they weren't King in two years. The internet has been the worst thing I have seen to be inflicted on our Society in its more than 50 year history. Now every crack pot boob brain is a social science authority.It amounts to " I hate kayak clubs, and kayak clubs need to be changed because I don't like them. Bwaa-Bwaa"
Your lucky. Only about 5 people in my barony have legit been nice to me. There are no kids though and no youth personell. Most are grown fighters at gatherings or old biddies who gossip about kingdom affairs. I'm the youngest female adult there a freak of nature with 2 kids under 10
Even though the SCA sucks I love LARP Combat and I would still play with you if you two were actaully my area and we knew each other. Nice video good job you two.
@@SteliosandLilah I didn't really explain what I what trying to say that good but when I said I "love" LARP what I actually meant to say is not that I actaully play but I was trying to say that I have an interest in it particularly the combat aspect but I definantly don't mind the idea of role playing especially when it has some sort of medeval theme.In the town I currently live there was a boffer group however they preaty much just focused on combat because they didn't have a large area of land available to play an actual Larp game.
You’re totally right! If you’re not fighting then why are you there?! Maybe you should try fighting ACL to get a change of pace It’s like the people trying to run shit have never had real responsibility at all.
Sounds a little bit like being in army boot camp and granted discipline is good but SCA sounds as if it has alot things that sucks.FWI I was never in the military so I never been to bootcamp however I did do Judo and I did do preaty vigorous exercise regimens before.
Bingo, not a meritocracy in any way. The level of politics involved for local service awards even is crazy. Peerages ... ugh crazy. Your Knight is supposed to educate you in the courtly graces and knightly manners as outlined in knightly texts. If thats not your thing then probably better not to go that route.
I was involved with the SCA starting from around 1980 to 2011 as a heavy weapons fighter and armorer. I quit after changing fighter practice on Oahu to the one at the Bart station in Oakland California. The fighters at the Bart practice were quite snobby and insulted me for not agreeing with their interpretation of what is and is not grappling. I sent an e-mail to the head SCA martial and even he did not give me a straight answer so clearly their interpretation of what is and is not grappling was nothing more than a biased opinion. If they had not insulted me for simply disagreeing with them I might have let it slide. Only a formal apology from the head martial of the SCA at this point could bring me back. Incidentally I was never given any official credit for all the armor I made for their members over the years. On another point I came to realize that the SCA has no logically stated mission goal or purpose. In other words the phrase they use most often when explaining what the SCA does is "recreate the middle ages as they should have been". But their explanation did not make sense to me since the word (recreate) refers to making something new in the imagination and not in the physical. To recreate the middle ages as they think they should have been one only needs to write or read a fantasy novel. The combat rules used in the SCA do not reflect a consistent purpose because some are clearly not made for safety reasons. To sum it up the SCA was too ambiguous in general for me and the people at the Bart practice did not respect an opinion of an outsider so I left and never went back. I checked into the local so called WMA groups as an alternative to the SCA but I found them to be even less respectful of differing opinions and so I chose not to be involved with them either.
Sounds like you had a bad experience. Sorry to hear that. It's not for everyone, but our mission is to make sure it is a safe place for people in relation to gender identity, sexual preference and ethnic make up. Our mission is to improve the culture. You appear to be at odds with the game mechanics. I understand that. The EMP, Empire of Medieval pursuits, does allow grappling. They're a lot more rough and tumble. Their aesthetic is very "Conan" which is pretty cool. As for seeking a formal apology from the martial or whatever....frankly? Get over yourself. If you want to come back, just come back. Or do you want the cookie? If you don't care about awards, and you do it for the love of it, awesome. If you want the fanfare, awards and cookies, there comes a price. Do you miss it? Do you want to play again? Ask yourself why you want to and go from there. -Stelios
I used to attend the Rockridge BART station practice and it was a mixed bag. There were some wonderful people there (I'm talking about you Sir Hilary!) as well as some horrible snobs. I have continued to reenact other time periods and generally find a larger percentage of friendlier people "out there". If you join the SCA it is a good idea IMHO to be very selective about who and where you invest your time. At least in my neck of the woods the local provinces and shires were full of people playing power games over what? An imaginary world?
Interesting post. The social dramas and to a certain degree the politics.... yes that could be (and was) annoying. However you are going to find that in any social club or group. That is to a certain degree human nature. NOW, I have heard many fighters over the years, grousing about . . . " the politics that kept them from becoming a knight " I call BULLSHIT on that one. IF you were/are a VERY VERY GOOD fighter, and have at least some of the social graces, I never saw a single such that was not Knighted within 4 years of joining the SCA. Sorry to be critical of that, but get over your egos and suck it up buttercups...🙂 Now I WILL SAY that I saw POLITICAL KNIGHTINGS where a not-very-good fighter was given the accolade because of who they associated with , or who had some drinking buddies that were knights and actively campaigned for them in Knight's Council...... So there is that.... But some of those were justifiable I felt in the cases of someone that was just a truly wonderful person in every other respect but slightly less as a fighter or for a longtime person in the SCA that had all the other awards and that was all that was left to give them... And this I saw to be true of the other Peerages as well (Laurel, Pelican ... etc) All in all I enjoyed my active years in the SCA very much, so for myself, net net, it was a positive experience ---- Viscount Baron Sir Phelan Swordbreaker
"IF you were/are a VERY VERY GOOD fighter, and have at least some of the social graces, I never saw a single such that was not Knighted within 4 years of joining the SCA." I disagree here. As I've seen that exact thing. But, I've also seen political knightings as well. As you said, it's a social club and all those human nuances are coming with it. Both good and bad. I've enjoyed far more of my time in the SCA than I have not, but I cannot turn a blind eye to fuckery that I have seen and the people it has hurt.
@@SteliosandLilah Nor should you, my good lord and kind lady. Children should be shown that where there be dragons, there are those who shall face them. That is the romance and efficacy of a Knight Light. Thus by definition the truth is brighter than light, and If you understood that of the SCA you would be my age, looking back, rather than your age looking forward... and in this respect, I envy your current station!! A matter of perspective? 😎 💛
@@SteliosandLilah One of the classiest examples I saw of your POV eloquently expressed by a Scadian, was a fellow who was notified that he was to be knighted, during an open court. He stood up and thanked the King and Queen, but then said that he preferred to be made a Master of Arms rather than a "knight' because he would never kneel before, nor swear fealty to any king, and because he thought "knights" in the SCA were bullshit. And I can absolutely respect that, nor could I necessarilly disagree.... Ah well, that was the SCA for you.... 🙂
@@SteliosandLilah And I do agree with the Lady's sentiment : Hey, fuck them if they can't take a joke . . . Sorry for the expletive, but it was the most appropriate word for the sentiments being expressed... 😄
@@SteliosandLilah Another curse of Scadians : Loquaciousness.... But thinking about this group I wonder if the SCA did not tend to draw the extremes from the cultures around them. By that I mean that I never met many moderate Scadians. They were either super-intelligent sweethearts OR some of the stupidest assholes I have ever met.... It is to ponder.....
So... it seems like they should be more welcoming to newcomers... it seems like they should be helpful rather than condescending when it comes to period-accuracy... and they could probably do more to relieve the financial toll... that being said, it seems like the big reason to join the SCA is because people want to be fully immersed in the "medieval" experience. Given that, people should dress close to period-appropriate as much as possible, people should "persona" close to period-appropriate as much as possible, and people should engage with activities, crafts, and camping in a close to period-appropriate way if they can. It's jarring when someone parks their highlighter-green modern tent in the middle of a medieval camp, it's jarring when someone waltzes around a medieval event wearing Assassin's Creed or World of Warcraft attire... It breaks immersion in a frustrating way, and if you really want to wear pajamas and day-drink, you ought to do that at a renaissance fair where immersion is frequently broken anyway. I'm sure it's grating (and maybe feels a little racist) for a group leader to tell you he liked you better as a Moore, but a black man dressed as a Moore is going to feel more immersive than a black man dressed as a Greek (just as white men break immersion when they persona as Mongols, Saracens, Aztecs, etc). People in the SCA are looking for a greater level of immersion, and if you're not down to play that way, it's probably not the hobby for you.
Hmmn... "I'm sure it's grating (and maybe feels a little racist) for a group leader to tell you he liked you better as a Moore, but a black man dressed as a Moore is going to feel more immersive than a black man dressed as a Greek (just as white men break immersion when they persona as Mongols, Saracens, Aztecs, etc)." If me walking around in Greek attire breaks your immersion, please feel free to let me know in person so I can laugh in your face. If your immersion is broken by your own racist hang-ups, then fuck your immersion. :) -Stelios
@@SteliosandLilah Not to mention, there were quite a few black folks in the Greek empire. Hey, St Nicholaus was black, and he was from Smyrna, which was held by the Greeks at that time. And my opinion of personas is that you do you, boo. If you're interested in the Greeks, do Greek! If you're interested in the Japanese, do Japanese! The fact that my personal genetic history goes back to the Franks is not why I'm 8th c Frank. It's because that's what interests me. If someone gives you grief because you don't pursue an African/Moorish persona just because you're black, then there's an inherent racism there, and THEY are the problem, not you. They need to check their privilege.
One thing that bugs me is the dangling of the carrot. I’ve been told for 10 years I’m almost there. But never what I need to do. Now I just fight for fun. I’m to old to care.
One of the things I see as an issue is how the new people are treated. I have been in the SCA on and off since 1977. New people used to be welcomed in, helped to participate, never judged, and included. What I see now is events where the period tents are in one area and the non-period tents are way away at the far end of the site. I understand period tents around the list field but this is not that. We are talking deliberate segregation of people with less ability or desire to fully immerse themselves in the SCA. In Ansteorra, this seemed to begin in the early eighties. Titles, rather than being lived up to, became something to lord over with. The group became more than a hobby for people, it became their means of defining themselves. As such, where they were in a pecking order became their paramount priority. This was when the period nazis and garb shammers first began. Prior to that, we had events like "Elf Stomp" where there was noting period about the event at all. Maybe I am just a stick jock but I miss the easy joviality and comradeship that a group of fighters has. I should also mention that I am one of those perpetual squires. I do not have the time to "Play the Game" and deal with all the sucking up required. I don't kiss ass at work and I won't for a hobby.
And the church said "Amen!"
-Stelios
What was Elf Stomp? I'm really curious.
Yeah, but people who're breaking immersion with their tents (or garb) SHOULD be segregated! People spend a lot of money to have an immersed experience, and it probably shouldn't be sabotaged so that casual "ren-fair" types don't have to walk as far...
So, I'm just finding this video and replying super late, but here goes. I joined in Drachenwald while I was stationed in Germany. It was fantastic. There was nowhere where people weren't friendly and welcoming. When I got out of the military and came back to the states, I moved to the Kingdom of the MIddle. It was a different ballgame, but my new canton was extremely welcoming and I shortly became their first chatelaine. I can't say enough about how much fun I had in Drachenwald and the Middle. Eventually I moved to Ansteorra. While I did find a few people that I got along with...it never really felt like home. It felt like I was the outsider, and I was just never welcomed fully because I wasn't a "native son". This, as well as personal circumstances, caused me to stop having a desire to play anymore. Now, after having been out for almost a decade, I find myself wanting to pick it back up. I can't say I'd like it here anymore though.
I live in An Tir and I have to totally agree with what was said about the newcomers not being welcomed in. I have been back in my shire for 8 years and have never been able to go to any practices because I can’t get rides. I’ve been told that newbies aren’t allowed to get rides to practices and events. I think the best way to help improve the Sca is to get an official mentor system that newbies and people who move shires/ baronies can access easily and use to grow
I'm a Master-Artisan with the Pennsylvania Guild of Craftsmen. I am a sculptor. I have been selling my work since the early 80's mainly at Shows, Conventions, and The Pa. Ren Fair. I have been contemplating joining the SCA, but am not sure that I should. I do not care about accolades since my work has provided me that in the "real-world". I just want to have some fun, but it seems there is just too much crap in doing so. I will absolutely NOT compromise myself or my work for someone that thinks they are above me, as I am the "real-deal", not an "arts and crafter". I can be a team player but.. it is not in my nature to play "political games". Especially concerning my REAL trade of life. Sorry so long....Waddya think? would this work for me? I kind of think not, but I would value your opinion(s). TY
You could teach classes and sell at events that's what I've figured out as a crafter.
I've been a member since June of '89. And I've seen a lot of this. And yet...
Yeah, there's cliques and other social foo. There is in any group consisting of more than two people. I've also been in church leadership (left the fundies, very happily Episcopalian now, which is a very different world), and it's very much the same. In fact, skills I've learned in both the SCA and church have been very useful in navigating a lot of human interaction, from SCA events to diocese convention to employment foo.
Humans are humans, whatever context they're in.
That said, a lot of things depend on your purpose and perspective. If you play just because you want a peerage, you are not going to have fun, and probably won't get that peerage. If you play because you enjoy what you're doing, and want to share that joy with others... you'll have a lot more fun. And if you get tapped for a peerage, that's cool. If you don't, you're still having fun. Your fun should not depend on letters after your name, but what you make of what is available to you.
My oldest daughter is fighting heavy, and she's a squire. She really wants a white belt, but she recognizes that it's a lot harder for women fighters, and she recognizes that she's getting close to aging out (women age out quicker than guys- I think it is largely build/bone issues). She took time off to have a kid, which set her back a bit, but she figures the trade-off was worth it. At any rate, her enjoyment of fighting is not based on potential for getting a belt. It's because she likes fighting. And one of the most awesome and profound things I've ever heard in the SCA is when she said it was indescribably awesome to *get on the field and fight her childhood heroes.* She'd been watching these guys since she was 5. An as an adult, she could get on the field and play with them. Yeah, she mostly got pounded, but they were all happy to talk with her and give her tips and they were all happy that she had fun. It's just a blast to get on the field with Tjorkill or Greyhelm or Ambrose, and fight, and have fun. Where else can you grow up and play with people you admired since you were a little kid?
I can't really speak to the Pelicanate as I'm not one, but I can tell you- the Laurels are more interested in watching process- people learning how to learn, finding joy in what they're doing, and teaching others. Like the Chiv, there is an element of skill that has to be accomplished. But what you do with that skill is just as important. Do you use it to be a snob? Or do you do stuff because it's cool and fun and you want to show everyone else this cool thing? I personally find a lot of joy is sharing cool stuff. I love teaching. I love dragging people in for dinner at Egils, for sharing things that can enhance an immersive experience. What it feels like to wear and move about in a period set of clothes. What it's like to sit down with a bowl of something yummy, listen to people talk about their craft, tell tales, sing, watch faces by torchlight... there's that frisson of pleasure at hearing someone armoring up on a chilly morning, that 'shhhoook' of chain mail, and the yell of shock from the cold metal. Or of falling asleep to the throb of drums on the other side of camp. I get a charge out of teaching someone how to read a recipe from a 600 year old text, and figure out how to cook it, even though there's no measurements, no temperature instructions, no timing but 'cook it untyl it be y-now'.
It's finding the joy within yourself- and not measuring it by others. That's why I'm still playing, after 32 years. Yes, I've had my ups and downs. But it has been because I've found joy from my own deeds, and not depending on the approval of others.
If you're interested in chatting further, Stelios, you know where to find me on Facebook. :-)
-Liutgard
I love your positive outlook. However, no matter how much joy we find in creating and learning, we as humans want to have positive social interactions. A lot of us went in with your philosophy, were taken advantage of, used, and otherwise ignored when not convenient for those in charge of the activities. It's easy to say this doesn't matter if we enjoy the activity and love sharing our knowledge and talents. But it's more true that part of the joy is //sharing// - which means reciprocation in kind from the group, be it through honest words of thanks, returned favors when help is needed, or some form of official recognition for the hard work performed. Constantly being used is not fun, gets old fast, and spoils any joy we might have once had within our group.
I haven't found people to teach me anything , as I gave up my fighters spirit after the birth of my second child at 28. I'm 34 now and just sew and nalbind. I don't feel like I belong because most people at local barony events are 20+ years older and haven't been that welcoming. they just sit around and gossip about people and the kingdom politics like old biddies . I'm new and don't know anything or care about that, so I don't feel I belong
I'm a rapier fighter, the mod I was under scolded me for not bringing my gear to an event. He asked "What if I told you that you had to fight today?" That was the same event I stepped down as a cadet.
Dang, this video is 2 years old and still rings true.
Personally I joined the SCA for the fighting as a primary means of motivating myself to hit the gym regularly.
I only see 2 types of groups at wars:
- Kingdom
- Mercenary
I am in a mercenary group because we play to have fun and we fight for whatever banner gives us the most beer and coin. It is has been the closest thing I have found to being in the military without most of the bullshit.
I do try to hang out with some Kingdom groups but as was pointed out they can be elitist and unwelcoming to outsiders (or they dislike mercs). I am yet to visit another mercenary camp and not be welcomed with open arms and given a seat at the fire.
The Kingdom groups need to act right before the SCA is just a bunch of mercenary groups trying to figure out how to start a war.
Justinian of Black Company
I am glad to see Mercenary units. I started the 1st mercenary unit. We were in Caid the Barony of Angels. Your post is the very reason I created House Blackrune. A home for wayward mercenaries. I too was blackballed by the knights of the Kingdom. This was was 36 years ago. In that day the fighters all fought with the local baron who led the group in battle. Today that concept does not exist in Caid. But do not let the nay sayers get to you. My group grew to over a hundred members and several groups in Caid started in the Household. A few members have become peers and Barons. I became a general in the army of the White Lightning brigade then became 2nd in command under Count Balin for several years and eventually became the Captain General of Caid and commanded the western forces at Esrella. Even with all I achieved I am the ONLY non knight in the kingdom to command at this level. I may have been blackballed but I changed the SCA for the better and I feel that it is a cheep price to pay for others to have fun.
There's nothing for those of use who craft and gave up fighting after having kids... at least in my barony
I stepped away after almost 20 years when I finally realized the chance for a white belt had nothing to do with my skill as a fighter or any of the actual knightly virtues purportedly espoused to be so important. Social politics clearly meant more than ability or character....I miss the people and the fighting to this day..I'll never miss what the organisation has become.
This is a hobby, so when it's no longer fun, time to leave.
I know I am posting quite a few years after this was published but I know precisely what you are talking about. I autocrated 3 events and kept my local Province in a free weekly meeting space at a local community college for two years. When it was time for me to move on to other things, like transferring to a 4 year school, they blamed me for losing their meeting space, when the real issue was their unwillingness to recruit and groom another student to take my place.
When the local Seneschal who originally worked with me was stepping down, she gave me an award for service. Immediately afterwards she was confronted within my earshot, by another member who opposed my getting an award.
Years after I left, a friend of mine from another Shire, who had been a Kingdom level officer, was shocked to find out that after all I had done, that I had never been granted a simple Award of Arms. She was insistent that I let her know the next time I was coming to an event, so that she could tell the royals to recognize my efforts.
I told her that I had no desire to ever attend an SCA event again.
Admittedly I was not the most organized or socially adept person at the time; I was 18-20 years old and had ADHD. But the level of hostility and passive aggression I had to deal with was ridiculous.
Once someone is willing to make a real world enemy over genre oneupmanship is the day you can write them off as insane. Real life comes first.
Especially with 2020 Election. My political views are totally opposite to the majority of My SCA family espcaily in my home area Meridies and Ansteorra where I first joined. I have been ridiculed for my views by those I truly admire and those I don't. I ignore those who don't want to be civil and they are a small obnoxious bunch of (insert word here)
Hi there. I've watched all 3 of your videos on this and I feel a lot of it is still true.
That said, I'm a relatively new member of SCA. I joined SCA rapier a little over a year ago. I got into it because I wanted to learn how to use a saber, and at the time there was no Saber study group so SCA rapier was the closest thing. Right off the bat, I noticed a lot of the politics, drama, and passive-aggressiveness within the SCA. I also felt that the SCA's representation of rapier was less than martial with weird rules like you can only cut if you do 6 inches of draw. Any sword, even rapiers, can cut percussively. Luckily, a few months after I got in, the nearby HEMA rapier and sidesword club inducted me into their group after seeing me in SCA, and soon after that the HEMA academy opened up a broadsword/saber study group that I am now a part of. I was very happy with the transition because there was less drama in those groups.
I do still go back to SCA events, and it is only because some of the members in the rapier/sidesword group are relatively high ranking in the SCA and we just go to support them. But honestly, if I never went to another SCA event, it wouldn't bother me.
Sadly, with the way things are, covid, new groups forming and a rather stubborn populace when it comes to embracing change, the SCA may have a decade left...if it's lucky.
I wondered about the SCA after learning about it. Thanks for an insiders view!
You didn't get one here. You are hearing from disgruntled whiners that didn't get the coddling they feel they deserve.
Hi Amanda with any large group issues can arise and they have. herbert is wrong though I know stelios and he speaks from his experiences and is talking about the issues he has delt with. The SCA is amazing and I love it for the different historical personas to just the fun people I get to hang out with. please do check out your local group I'm sure they would love to have you.
@@labtechguy I am an insider in the Sca and I can say everything that they are saying is still true especially if you have a disability
@SigmundFaust20 4 years later I've gone to a couple of my local SCA events. There's basically no one under 35 in my barony that I've met in person thats not a fighter , let alone has or brings kids. I'm a parent and it's not fun for my kids under 10 because they don't have a youth fight marshall. Most people are fighters or sewers/ weavers, most are over 50 years old. There's no kids unless the kingdom gets together for Lillies.
I joined the Sca in 1997 but left in 2003 only to rejoin in 2012. I am thinking of leaving again Simply because I’m not able to get rides to practices and have never been given a fair shot to get any training for jobs with the shire. If you’re from an outlying shire like I am you have no chance of getting a deputy job in the principality or kingdom without helping the shire first
Well, I am going to watch rapier for the first time on Thursday, and am very glad to have watched this series before. Thanks for posting it. Opinion: This club requires a lot of skill, strategy and talent lol.
I seem to have gotten rather lucky in the SCA thus far, been doing this for about 5 years now based in Æthelmearc and ive found nothing but welcoming folk and encouragment twords learning and being as active as your comfortable with. Granted at pennsic last year i came across one garb snob (she was drunk and didnt like the color of my tunic...or the fact that it was hand stitched i guess?) But otherwise i hit the jackpot
The reason is the authors of this crap channel are disgruntle twerps., I have been in the SCA for decades and have seen a slew of whiners that quit because they weren't King in two years. The internet has been the worst thing I have seen to be inflicted on our Society in its more than 50 year history. Now every crack pot boob brain is a social science authority.It amounts to " I hate kayak clubs, and kayak clubs need to be changed because I don't like them. Bwaa-Bwaa"
Hey Jacob Clark, we're in the same Kingdom. :D
Your lucky. Only about 5 people in my barony have legit been nice to me. There are no kids though and no youth personell. Most are grown fighters at gatherings or old biddies who gossip about kingdom affairs. I'm the youngest female adult there a freak of nature with 2 kids under 10
I would mainly join just to fight as well.That is if the SCA didn't sound as if it friggen suck so much.
Neither do I Stelios. I have a low tolerance of BS and Drama/Politics. I just go my own way , In reference to the social media that is sadly true
Even though the SCA sucks I love LARP Combat and I would still play with you if you two were actaully my area and we knew each other. Nice video good job you two.
What LARP do you play?
@@SteliosandLilah I didn't really explain what I what trying to say that good but when I said I "love" LARP what I actually meant to say is not that I actaully play but I was trying to say that I have an interest in it particularly the combat aspect but I definantly don't mind the idea of role playing especially when it has some sort of medeval theme.In the town I currently live there was a boffer group however they preaty much just focused on combat because they didn't have a large area of land available to play an actual Larp game.
@@garynaccarto8636 understood
You’re totally right! If you’re not fighting then why are you there?!
Maybe you should try fighting ACL to get a change of pace
It’s like the people trying to run shit have never had real responsibility at all.
On the money. Miss seeing you, and hope our paths will cross again one day. Natasha Orionova
Tell me more about the greek....u do the pennsic or wich ones?
Sounds a little bit like being in army boot camp and granted discipline is good but SCA sounds as if it has alot things that sucks.FWI I was never in the military so I never been to bootcamp however I did do Judo and I did do preaty vigorous exercise regimens before.
Bingo, not a meritocracy in any way. The level of politics involved for local service awards even is crazy. Peerages ... ugh crazy. Your Knight is supposed to educate you in the courtly graces and knightly manners as outlined in knightly texts. If thats not your thing then probably better not to go that route.
I was involved with the SCA starting from around 1980 to 2011 as a heavy weapons fighter and armorer. I quit after changing fighter practice on Oahu to the one at the Bart station in Oakland California. The fighters at the Bart practice were quite snobby and insulted me for not agreeing with their interpretation of what is and is not grappling. I sent an e-mail to the head SCA martial and even he did not give me a straight answer so clearly their interpretation of what is and is not grappling was nothing more than a biased opinion. If they had not insulted me for simply disagreeing with them I might have let it slide. Only a formal apology from the head martial of the SCA at this point could bring me back. Incidentally I was never given any official credit for all the armor I made for their members over the years. On another point I came to realize that the SCA has no logically stated mission goal or purpose. In other words the phrase they use most often when explaining what the SCA does is "recreate the middle ages as they should have been". But their explanation did not make sense to me since the word (recreate) refers to making something new in the imagination and not in the physical. To recreate the middle ages as they think they should have been one only needs to write or read a fantasy novel. The combat rules used in the SCA do not reflect a consistent purpose because some are clearly not made for safety reasons. To sum it up the SCA was too ambiguous in general for me and the people at the Bart practice did not respect an opinion of an outsider so I left and never went back. I checked into the local so called WMA groups as an alternative to the SCA but I found them to be even less respectful of differing opinions and so I chose not to be involved with them either.
Sounds like you had a bad experience. Sorry to hear that. It's not for everyone, but our mission is to make sure it is a safe place for people in relation to gender identity, sexual preference and ethnic make up. Our mission is to improve the culture. You appear to be at odds with the game mechanics. I understand that. The EMP, Empire of Medieval pursuits, does allow grappling. They're a lot more rough and tumble. Their aesthetic is very "Conan" which is pretty cool.
As for seeking a formal apology from the martial or whatever....frankly? Get over yourself. If you want to come back, just come back. Or do you want the cookie? If you don't care about awards, and you do it for the love of it, awesome. If you want the fanfare, awards and cookies, there comes a price. Do you miss it? Do you want to play again? Ask yourself why you want to and go from there.
-Stelios
I used to attend the Rockridge BART station practice and it was a mixed bag. There were some wonderful people there (I'm talking about you Sir Hilary!) as well as some horrible snobs.
I have continued to reenact other time periods and generally find a larger percentage of friendlier people "out there".
If you join the SCA it is a good idea IMHO to be very selective about who and where you invest your time. At least in my neck of the woods the local provinces and shires were full of people playing power games over what? An imaginary world?
Interesting post. The social dramas and to a certain degree the politics.... yes that could be (and was) annoying. However you are going to find that in any social club or group. That is to a certain degree human nature. NOW, I have heard many fighters over the years, grousing about . . .
" the politics that kept them from becoming a knight "
I call BULLSHIT on that one. IF you were/are a VERY VERY GOOD fighter, and have at least some of the social graces, I never saw a single such that was not Knighted within 4 years of joining the SCA. Sorry to be critical of that, but get over your egos and suck it up buttercups...🙂 Now I WILL SAY that I saw POLITICAL KNIGHTINGS where a not-very-good fighter was given the accolade because of who they associated with , or who had some drinking buddies that were knights and actively campaigned for them in Knight's Council...... So there is that.... But some of those were justifiable I felt in the cases of someone that was just a truly wonderful person in every other respect but slightly less as a fighter or for a longtime person in the SCA that had all the other awards and that was all that was left to give them... And this I saw to be true of the other Peerages as well (Laurel, Pelican ... etc) All in all I enjoyed my active years in the SCA very much, so for myself, net net, it was a positive experience
---- Viscount Baron Sir Phelan Swordbreaker
"IF you were/are a VERY VERY GOOD fighter, and have at least some of the social graces, I never saw a single such that was not Knighted within 4 years of joining the SCA."
I disagree here. As I've seen that exact thing. But, I've also seen political knightings as well. As you said, it's a social club and all those human nuances are coming with it. Both good and bad. I've enjoyed far more of my time in the SCA than I have not, but I cannot turn a blind eye to fuckery that I have seen and the people it has hurt.
@@SteliosandLilah Nor should you, my good lord and kind lady. Children should be shown that where there be dragons, there are those who shall face them. That is the romance and efficacy of a Knight Light. Thus by definition the truth is brighter than light, and If you understood that of the SCA you would be my age, looking back, rather than your age looking forward... and in this respect, I envy your current station!! A matter of perspective? 😎 💛
@@SteliosandLilah One of the classiest examples I saw of your POV eloquently expressed by a Scadian, was a fellow who was notified that he was to be knighted, during an open court. He stood up and thanked the King and Queen, but then said that he preferred to be made a Master of Arms rather than a "knight' because he would never kneel before, nor swear fealty to any king, and because he thought "knights" in the SCA were bullshit. And I can absolutely respect that, nor could I necessarilly disagree.... Ah well, that was the SCA for you.... 🙂
@@SteliosandLilah And I do agree with the Lady's sentiment : Hey, fuck them if they can't take a joke . . . Sorry for the expletive, but it was the most appropriate word for the sentiments being expressed... 😄
@@SteliosandLilah Another curse of Scadians : Loquaciousness.... But thinking about this group I wonder if the SCA did not tend to draw the extremes from the cultures around them. By that I mean that I never met many moderate Scadians. They were either super-intelligent sweethearts OR some of the stupidest assholes I have ever met.... It is to ponder.....
So... it seems like they should be more welcoming to newcomers... it seems like they should be helpful rather than condescending when it comes to period-accuracy... and they could probably do more to relieve the financial toll... that being said, it seems like the big reason to join the SCA is because people want to be fully immersed in the "medieval" experience. Given that, people should dress close to period-appropriate as much as possible, people should "persona" close to period-appropriate as much as possible, and people should engage with activities, crafts, and camping in a close to period-appropriate way if they can. It's jarring when someone parks their highlighter-green modern tent in the middle of a medieval camp, it's jarring when someone waltzes around a medieval event wearing Assassin's Creed or World of Warcraft attire... It breaks immersion in a frustrating way, and if you really want to wear pajamas and day-drink, you ought to do that at a renaissance fair where immersion is frequently broken anyway. I'm sure it's grating (and maybe feels a little racist) for a group leader to tell you he liked you better as a Moore, but a black man dressed as a Moore is going to feel more immersive than a black man dressed as a Greek (just as white men break immersion when they persona as Mongols, Saracens, Aztecs, etc). People in the SCA are looking for a greater level of immersion, and if you're not down to play that way, it's probably not the hobby for you.
Hmmn...
"I'm sure it's grating (and maybe feels a little racist) for a group leader to tell you he liked you better as a Moore, but a black man dressed as a Moore is going to feel more immersive than a black man dressed as a Greek (just as white men break immersion when they persona as Mongols, Saracens, Aztecs, etc)."
If me walking around in Greek attire breaks your immersion, please feel free to let me know in person so I can laugh in your face. If your immersion is broken by your own racist hang-ups, then fuck your immersion. :)
-Stelios
@@SteliosandLilah Not to mention, there were quite a few black folks in the Greek empire. Hey, St Nicholaus was black, and he was from Smyrna, which was held by the Greeks at that time.
And my opinion of personas is that you do you, boo. If you're interested in the Greeks, do Greek! If you're interested in the Japanese, do Japanese! The fact that my personal genetic history goes back to the Franks is not why I'm 8th c Frank. It's because that's what interests me. If someone gives you grief because you don't pursue an African/Moorish persona just because you're black, then there's an inherent racism there, and THEY are the problem, not you. They need to check their privilege.
Why do I have a feeling that the gal talking in this vid is 300 pounds?
Oh look, an old, bald, sexually inept guy attempting to attack a stranger on the internet. Cuuuuute.
Also, you were really easy to find.
facebook.com/christopher.whitcomb1