Repertoire: The IDEAL Debussy Orchestral Works
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- čas přidán 22. 11. 2021
- Here, by popular demand, is my IDEAL list of Debussy orchestral works--no weak links, and a different conductor for each one--the major ones, that is. Debussy's orchestral output is complicated by the fact that there are many short pieces that no one especially cares about, and more than a few that were completed or orchestrated by others. So I've carved out a special niche for those. If you've got your own list, I'd love to see it.
Please check out the ClassicsToday.com shop for really cool merchandise: shop.classicstoday.com - Hudba
Another suggestion: now that you've done the Beethoven overtures, it would be fun listing the ideal Berlioz and Mendelssohn overtures.
Thanks for demonstrating the “single player” technique on the crotales - it brought back memories of my doing it that way 40 years ago!
the ski cap is great,you should do hoodies too along with the caps,now that winter is here.keep listening,and...bundle up
We have hoodies, but the logo is on the back.
You really nailed this one.
If anyone remembers Antonio's film "Blow-up", it has a famously strange ending with a couple of characters playing a silent game of tennis with imaginary rackets and an imaginary net. I think "Jeux" might have served as an appropriate sound track for this movie.
Dear Hurwitz, thanks for introduce me to Manuel Rosenthal. What a hell of conductor, and the sonics are very good for a 50's recording. Hellyeah! I would suggest his Prelude a l'pres wich at 9:52 follows some of Paray approach, but with a little more "soir de vivre" in the tuttis.
Rosenthal led Poulenc's "Les Mamelles de Tiresias"", back in 1981 at the Met. If I recall, it was part of a triple bill of French works. This was a satirical one-acter.
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900 reviews!!! Wow!! Congratulations David . I love the antique finger cymbals. I have been doing rehearsals with my orchestra in Australia and we are doing a absolutely delightful piece called Petite Suite . Debussy is a genius composer!!
Wow, I've been composing, conducting, and orchestrating for 15 years, and I've just learned that there's a difference between antique cymbals and crotales. Thank you!
No, I said they are basically the same. The only difference is how they are played (sometimes).
I think you're right but nevermind, it's maybe due to a confusion with krakebs. Great talk on "vibrato' on your channel by the way.
I don't know recordings of Debussy's orchestral music well enough to come up with a full list. In terms of La Mer though I have a soft spot for Sinopoli and the Philharmonia Orchestra. The end of the first movement is absolutely magnificent. It's coupled with a really good Daphnis et Chloe Suite No. 2
You did it, listening to Martinons La Mer sold me on the box very easily. What a case he makes for the work!
Now let's see if I can find it for a reasonable price. If they don't want me to have it, I'll keep streaming.
I love my Debussy with plenty of "authentic" tang: Rosenthal, Martinon & the daddy of them all, Inghelbrecht. Also marvellous are the Czech Phil performances with Baudo (Pelleas symphonie) & Fournet. I couldn't live without Paray, either...
Hello David. That's an ideal list indeed. Thanks a lot. I miss your chats on less familiar music however. But the "Haydn symphony crusade" series is a lot of fun and quite revelatory. The quartets should get the same treatment (next decade perhaps).
Suggestions for future videos:
"Most beautiful melodies": Zoltan Kodaly's "Ungarisches Rondo" and Frederico Mompou's "Damunt de tu, nomes les flors" from the "El combat del somni" suite
Composers: Hartmann, Hovhaness, Rouse, Schreker, Ligeti, Koechlin, Schulhoff, Julius Eastman, Frank Zappa.
Works: "Doktor Faust" by Busoni, Barraud's 3rd symphony, Zimmermann's "Requiem for a Young Poet", and Poulenc's "Stabat Mater".
Take care
Happy Thanksgiving, Dave!
Same to you!
And speaking of the crotales and their ability to cut through the orchestra, let us not forget their appearance at fig 29 of Le Sacre.
That's in unison with the triangle, just to be sure is works!
@@DavesClassicalGuide True! A marvellous idea of Stravinsky's, to add another tiny metal instrument that also has the ability to cut through the loudest tutti on its own- so, in combination...
Very stimulating talk - I'll try several including the Kocsis version of Fantaisie. Ever since it came out on LP I've loved the Kars LSO Gibson version - then coupled with Delius concerto but on CD in separate issues and composer boxes.
If anyone stumbled into this comment and is into formal analysis of Debussy's works,I can't speak highly enough: Mark DeVoto,Debussy and the Veil of Tonality. He analyzes all his major works and I found it extremely insightful. My opinion of The Martyrdom of St. Sebastian is that the narrated versions detract from that awesome full-length score(not excerpts)with choir. Frighteningly evocative music.
Thanks for the great list and all the content you do to help me build a music library worth listening to and following. I don't collect physical media due to the lack of money to do so and I only use spotify. It sucks sometimes though when I look for some of these recordings or albums and they don't exist on the search for that particular piece/album that contains what you're suggesting and I don't happen to know a good reference point for the piece other than what you've specified in the video lol, but other than that, adoring the Debussy love lately~
Try Apple Music, if you can. So far I have not “not” been able to find a piece recommended by David.
Percy Grainger made wonderful arrangements of Pagodes and Bruyeres. Geoffrey Simon recorded them 30 or so years ago.
Can't quarrel with any of your choices from Faune forward. I think Silvestri's Nocturnes is gorgeous and perfectly paced. Cluytens would probably make my list for Jeux , haunting evocation of texture and piquant at the same time. Argenta's zestful Iberia is also a favorite of mine and he gets the OSR to sound better than Ansermet often did! Also thanks for the lesson on the crotales, I didn't know there were specially made Faune ones; Massenet used them too in Thais; and, oh yes, the correct Koechlin pronunciation. Too bad that last disc didn't include Stokie's Cathedrale Engloutie which is incredible and scary.
I’m a bit late in coming up with my ideal list because there are so many choices and I have tried not to duplicate Dave’s.
Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn: Boulez/Cleveland (DG)
Nocturnes: Abbado/Boston
La Mer: Haitink (love those horn fanfares!)
Images: Tilson Thomas/Boston
Jeux: Rattle/CBSO (though Haitink would be my first choice)
Martyrdom of St. Sebastian-Symphonic fragments: Salonen/LA Phil (also contains a wonderful Damoiselle elue with Dawn Upshaw and a fine Nocturnes)
No favorites for Printemps, though Boulez/Cleveland (DG) will do fine and his Dances for Harp are also good.
Dave, got the coffee mug. Like it, but it would look a lot better with the your CT logo shrunk down a bit to fit on one side of the mug, or appearing twice (one on each side), like most logo-ed mugs. With the "wrap-around" logo the letters are too big for anyone observing you drinking from it, or seeing it on the counter, to read what it says (which is at least part of the reason for having it.
Would order another one if you can make this happen.
I love Charles Dutoit and the OSM for his orchestral works except for Martyre de saint Sébastien for which I think Michael Tilson Thomas' version is the best I've heard. I will listen to all of your list if available and see if I'll find any new favourites.
You should check out the recording of Prelude d'apres midi d'un faune by Charles Dutois and the Orchestra Symphonique de Montreal. It is 10 minutes 45 seconds long, and is like the midway point between your choice and that slush fest you were talking about.
I was wondering what your thoughts are about Guido Cantelli, as I think I haven’t heard you mention him so far, at least in the videos I’ve watched… I used to love very much his La Mer and his Faune, as well as his Unfinished and his Beethoven 7th among other things - on EMI and Testament . As I tend to agree with your vision, was I very disoriented when listening to his versions?
He was a wonderful conductor, and your instincts are all good! Trust them!
Yes! Thank you for following up on my suggestion so quickly.
I gotta admit, the traditional French orchestras playing Debussy and Ravel have been pretty startling for me. The Haitinks and Karajans of the world tend to emphasize the music's languorousness, like playing through a gauze. The French orchestras have a lot more bite. I just listened to Rosenthal's version of "Fetes" from the Nocturnes, a piece that I've always loved. Most conductors make it sound like the soundtrack to a superhero movie. Rosenthal's really does sound like a parade! And Paray's version of "Prelude" is pretty startling in how he just blazes through it.
It's definitely challenging a lot of my prior conceptions of the music. But that's why you have to keep... you know.
Love the hat. Being hair-challenged myself, I'm ordering one.
Awesome! Thank you!
Didn't Debussy finish the piano score for Khamma and Koechlin only completing the orchestration? In any event, I find the music of Khamma more compelling than Jeux, and sadly it's preformed much less often.
I like that hat!
Loving the beanie! They look super soft. How about a stubby holder ("koozie?") for your southern hemisphere fans!?
Some other versions worth hearing...
Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune:
- Los Angeles Philharmonic · André Previn
- Cleveland Orchestra · Vladimir Ashkenazy
La Mer:
- Cleveland Orchestra · Vladimir Ashkenazy
- Orchestre Symphonique de Montréal · Charles Dutoit
- Philharmonia Orchestra · Evgeny Svetlanov
- Orchestre National de France · Emmanuel Krivine (… includes rare 3rd movement fanfare sketch)
- Orchestre de Paris · Daniel Barenboim
- London Symphony Orchestra · André Previn
Clair de lune:
- Philadelphia Orchestra · Eugene Ormandy
Here's my two cents worth of the one's I know well enough to offer suggestions - La Mer Baudo LPO (although I also like Beinum with the Concertgebouw, so conflicted in that choice). Trios Nocturnes Haitink Concertgebouw (again though Abbado and the Boston Symphony are pretty special). Images Salonen LAPO. Prelude a'l'apres-midi Tilson Thomas Boston Symphony. Printemps Tortelier Ulster Orchestra (generally a underated Debussy cycle on Chandos). That's the best I can do.
Have done Shostakovich’s 5th Symphony? Please do if you have not as I can’t find the link if you have.
Coming at the end...
@@DavesClassicalGuide many thanks and deeply appreciate Classics Today and your series
My Ideal Debussy Orchestral Works:
La Mer - Boulez, New Philharmonia
Images - Argenta, l'orchsetra de la Suisse Romande
Nocturnes - Monteaux, Boston Symphony Orchestra
Deux dances pour harpe - Hollywood String Quartet with Ann Mason Stockton (harp)
Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun - Stokowski, LSO
Jeux - Anserment, l'orchsetra de la Suisse Romande
Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra - Samson Francois (piano)
Printemps - Munch, Boston Symphony Orchestra
Petite Suite - Paray, Detroit Symphony Orchestra
Childrens Corner - Cluytens
Suggestion: How about doing something about John Philip Sousa or even marches in general?
Sounds good to me.
@@DavesClassicalGuide 😀
Great talk. Celibidache's live Prelude To the Afternoon Of A Faun is absolutely spellbinding at 17 minutes! It's on CZcams; check it out.
Please do a talk on the last two string quartets by Schubert. Happy Holidays!
He has already done a talk on the Ideal Manfred Symphony. Look it up.
@@detectivehome3318 I stand corrected.
Ok, here’s what I want to know, and I recognize that we’re still a ways out from getting to Bb major symphonies (which I m really hoping you won’t spend most of on Bruckner 5): When are you going to address the big French elephant in the room? I’m talking about D’Indy’s Symphony No.2. Next to the symphonic canons of Saint-Saens and Roussel, D’Indy’s second is the greatest symphonic statement in the French repertoire. I’m dying to know whose performance you think is best. I have listened a half dozen or so of these and keep coming back to to Plasson, who I know you think is not such a good conductor. I really want to know if there is fabulous performance of this work out there with which I am unfamiliar.
I don't think he's a bad conductor, but I do not like that symphony at all. Maybe you will convince me otherwise.
I am not sure I can convince you that it’s a good piece because no one seems to perform it in a way that suggests that they understand the push and pull between the two big themes that permeate the piece and are both at odds with one another as well as complement each other. In addition to Plassons, both Gamba with Iceland and DePriest with Monte-Carlo play it with a lot of pizazz and excitement, but sadly both also miss the point. The remainder of what’s out there that I have heard play it like it’s a stuffy late-Romantic symphony written by the likes of Gernsheim or Herzogenberg (the latter of whom wrote some outstanding chamber works but whose orchestral music is a snooze fest at best). Unfortunately, it’s not a popular symphony, so it’s pretty rare for someone to take a crack at it as it is French music from the Franckian school, which, quite frankly and sadly, no one gives a shit about anymore. There’s a glimmer of hope that Magnard, Dukas, and/or Ropartz may still get some attention in the future. However, because this piece is difficult both musically and technically, requires large forces, and is written by a composer who has a reputation of being anti-Semitic, it is more likely than not that it will fade into oblivion before anyone can play it with the approach that the score requires for it to speak for itself.
Crotales. Sounds like a tapas. Maybe something fried.
Thought for a moment Santa Claus had gone classical :)
Van Beinum for any Debussy he recorded...Munch/Boston for PRINTEMPS & L'APRES MIDI D'UN FAUN...Boulez for JEUX.
David, can you recommend a book on Debussy that would be enjoyable to someone like me, namely, a non-expert who loves his music?
I can't, to be frank, but maybe someone else here can.
May I suggest Stephen Walsh’s recent biography- very readable and reliable.
@@robkeeleycomposer Thank you - I will check it out.
Debussy: His Life and Mind (in two volumes) by Edward Lockspeiser is a great way to get acquainted with Debussy's life and work. It was published in the thirties and was long considered the most authoritative book on the subject.
If still available, it is well worth seeking out.
@@robkeeleycomposer Excellent book.
Dave, you could be doing us a disservice inadvertently with these "IDEAL" cycles by choosing a different conductor for each work.
Let me explain. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Pierre Monteux made the very best recording of both 'La Mer' and 'Trois Nocturnes'. You could choose Monteux's recording of 'La Mer' as the very best, but you could not choose his recording of the Nocturnes as the very best because you had already chosen a Monteux recording for another Debussy work.
As another example, let's assume that Eugen Jochum made the very best recording of both Bruckner's 7th and 9th Symphonies. In compiling your ideal Bruckner symphony collection, you could choose Jochum for the 7th or the 9th Symphony, but not both.
And so on and so forth. In the future, I would suggest allowing the same conductor or artist to be chosen more than once in these "IDEAL" collections of symphonies, concertos, operas, string quartets, etc.
You miss the point. First, there is no such thing as "the best" in the standard repertoire. My whole objective is to show that it's not necessary to think what way. Second, an IDEAL list is merely one with no weak links, not one that has my (or anyone else's) favorite selections in every work. It's important to recognize that there's a range of interpretive choices that are excellent and equally valid,, at least within certain parameters. So nothing is getting shortchanged or overlooked.
Love the sound the crotales make! Wonderful! Be good to hear Elgar orchestral works survey! Me being British would love that.