Suspension Geometry (A Arm for Baja)
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- čas přidán 12. 01. 2019
- In this video I go over how I decided to go with the geometry for the front suspension on my Baja. I explain some of the pro's and Con's to moving around the pivot points and changing control arm lengths.
drive.google.com/drive/folder...
This is the link to my shared folder where I share some of my designs if anyone wants to work with them. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I’m an engineering student looking to start my own build. After watching an “engineering based” video I got a grasp of things I need to look for, but your model was much more intuitive. I started out my experience working on motorcross bikes, so this is a good reminder to always trust the mechanics!
Very well said my friend!
Thanks for the comment and good luck with your project.
What a great information vid. I hope folks appreciate all the time it takes to make and share this detailed info.
I like that you can virtually work it before building the suspension and then have to alter it. It gives you a full spectrum of its geometry. Thanks for sharing your engineering. BigW:-)
Big W, this is the easiest way for me to see what will happen through the rage of motion.
Thanks for the comment buddy!
Dang man I love the entire cutout board!! Makes everything super easy to see laid out, and I love that it's a "working model" 😁
Thanks DB! I've used other methods before but nothing beats a 1/1 mock up.
I’ve been watching all of your videos and gaining so much knowledge. I hope your channel blows up!! I plan to build a long travel kit for my 4Runner, your videos really made me understand what it takes to build a custom suspension system. I’ll be building it, taking my time and making it right while reviewing all your videos to make it perfect. Awesome content please keep it up!
Thanks buddy!
My advice would have been to take your time, but you got that covered.
Good luck with the build. 👍
Always good to see it to understand it. So simple but it’s defo what il be doing
Excellent video, thank you
Love your full scale geometry modelling.
Sure thing bud! Thanks for the comment.
Great video. Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see the build. Happy new year.
Thanks buddy!
You are going to make so many diy guys’ dreams come true. I am going to learn all I can from you and share with the rest of my community. This is just awesome. I have been looking for someone like you for a long time!
Why don’t you just flip the heim joint connected to the spindle? Would that allow full droop?
Thanks man, very nice comment. Please learn what you can and share what you can. I hope it helps the DIY guys a lot. I love the people like me tinkering in their garages and making great creations, whatever it might be.
I would rather not flip the steering heim. I feel like I'll loose some steering. But because I make these spindles now I suppose I can do whatever I want with them. So when I actually build this and I can see how much travel and steering I get. I might experiment with flipping the steering heims and see if it's better or not. Thanks for sharing your ideas with me.
This video is a freaking godsend for me! I will absolutely be copying your mock up for my minibuggy build! Thank you so much!
Awesome, I'm glad it helped. Good luck with your build. ✌
This video is the messiah of all questions when it comes to suspensions, is the one question mechanics in general refuse to answer or don’t know at all, I see all kinds of stupid people with blogs assuming and guessing shit pounding their chests but is all ignorance that takes no where at all, my old van upper control arms were almost touching the frame due to a 3” lift, it look great once up there but the ride was poor and crappy, after this video I just welded a tube from the upper control to the ball joint with a 3/16 plate and added bolts, after that I saw the difference because my shocks and coil springs were doing their work due to enough traveling up and down, many thanks mister, well done 👍
Great example mate 🤙 modeling it at 1:1 makes it a lot easier to understand. Happy New Year, I hope 2019 is an awesome year for you 👍
Thanks Craig. Happy New Years to you as well.
I actually first tried a smaller mock up but couldn't really visualize it enough. So I made this big bastard, but now I really know all my measurements and can start to build it for real.
Superb video, thank you.
Thanks for the vids ,keep up the great work
Thanks!
I love the CAD work, Cardboard Aided Design. It makes it very clear.
Thanks, glad you like it. 👍
Great video.
Very informative. 👍
Thanks!
man this guy pay attention to this guy he is teaching you how you can make a living for free!!!!!! love this channel.
Thanks!
Appreciate the comment!
Youre awesome man thank you so much! Subscribed!
Glad to have you on board! Thanks for the comment.
love the video and information.
when you shorten the upper control arm, also move the inside pivot point down closer to the inside pivot of the lower control arm.
this might not work for your body, but it does fix your drop position and gives a nice curve with negative camber gain at compression.
might not be what you want at compression
works great with street suspensions
Short Long Arm
you could also rotate your steering heim joint so it is inline with the others. You don't need 180 degrees for steering. If it is not enough steering, a high angle bushing can be used to increase the angle.
That's not a bad idea. I'll mock that up and see if I like it. Thanks for the idea!
Something I didn't see you touch on was body roll. When you corner, having that shorter upper control arm will give you a larger contact patch on the loaded tire, due to body roll.
I'll be building a Beetle buggy with a Hayabusa engine, and I'm planning on using perfect geometry for the rear, but a shorter upper geometry for the front. I'll definitely be build a 1:1 scale model like what you have here, though, to make sure I get the most desirable outcome.
I agree with you. The issue with this chassis is the shorter upper arm will bring the top of the tire into the front clip. So I'm trying to keep it to a minimum.
But you're right, cornering wise that would be a better design.
Great video. Im in the middle of figuring mine out.
Great, hope this video helped you out a little bit. Good luck with your build.
Love your videos
Thank you!
@@DougBugBuilder thank you for your videos. Im not ready to do what your doing right now. You give me the confidence to attempt somthing way out of my comfort zone.
Awesome video! The visual representation helps out a lot, I hope you keep producing even more content and look forward to it.
Yeah I have to see it in a 1/1 scenario. Thanks for the comment! I plan to keep the videos coming.
Thank You for share
You bet! Thanks for the comment.
Might work on dirt munchers but take it to a smooth asphalt your tires would be eaten up in no time this thing on roads is a precise trigonometry, very often to 4 decimal numbers accuracy and even if I like your way and style, this will work only in jumpy speed not with really fast players. You got my like regardless
Reading "dirt muncher" made me laugh out loud! 😂
Thanks
what about the weight difference from the back to the front? are you plan on jumping the Baja A lot? are you also using a strap?
Yes I plan to jump this as much as I can. Weight distrubition won't be a problem as long as it's under control on the take off. It would be an issue if it really had time to free fall, but not the jums I'll be doing.
Yes when complete this will have limiting straps on it.
Hi, do you recommend any book about suspension design? Thanks for the video it is really good!
I've never found a good book for off road suspension. CZcams videos and google searches I think are best ways to gather that info.
To echo what backyard boogie said, is there any reason you cannot flip the tie rod heims such that they rotate on a horizontal axis like the uniball joints? It seems to me that this would free up a few degrees of droop. It may limit steering deflection some, but that is already limited at the uniball. Just a thought, there is always a trade off.
You are right, and I've actually thought about that a couple times. When I actually make this and have it on the bug I'll be able to actually see what limits things. If I think I'm really giving up some good travel because of the steering heims I might mock up a spindle with the heims rotated and see how it looks.
I like your thinking and thanks for sharing your ideas with me.
Would you be available for consultations? I believe we are nearly neighbors. Looking to boost my mk1 Caddy suspension for a visit to Baja.
What about roll center effects when you change the geometry of the upper arm? What about jacking if the roll center is too high?
I know just from you asking these questions that you already know and understand the answers to those questions. Most likely you have a really good understanding of how suspension like this works. But a lot of people don't and are hesitant to play around with it. This video is really trying to keep it pretty simple and give anybody an understanding of the major things to consider in a suspension like this.
Plus to start talking about roll center that would be a video all in it's own. It's called "roll" because everything you do affects it. lol.
But not to dismiss you, if you really are indeed curious about some of what you asked email me at dougbugbuilder@gmail.com and we can discuss.
Thanks for the comment!!
Thank you so much helps a lot anyway I can dm for some question
Email me at dougbugbuilder@gmail.com and help if I can.
These are the type of physical models that make complete sense to me. Very hard to translate books on road geometry to off road.
Glad it helped.
Thanks for the comment.
Looks like you have a good understanding of suspension geometry. There is an easier way to model your suspension online. There are several tools out there but I find vsusp.com the easiest to use. All you need to do is enter your arm lengths, pivot points, spindle specs, and tire size. Vsusp builds the suspension model that look much like your foam core model. It then allows you to simulate suspension conditions such as full compression/droop, extreme bump/pot-hole, extreme body rolll, etc. In addition it calculates many of the key measurements in these suspension conditions such as camber change, scrub radius, control arm scrub, proper location for steering knuckle, etc. Here is an example of a Yamaha Raptor 700 setup (Note: CZcams automatic link does not work, so copy paste into google.com) -> www.vsusp.com/#0.8%26project_name%3ARaptor700%26trim%7Bbody_roll_angle%3A0%7Cfront.left_bump%3A0%7Crear.left_bump%3A0%7Cfront.right_bump%3A0%7Crear.right_bump%3A0%7D%26front%7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bottom_y%3A32000%7Cframe.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A7950%7Cframe.bottom_to_upper_mount_y%3A16500%7Cframe.center_to_lower_mount_x%3A6850%7Cframe.bottom_to_lower_mount_y%3A2000%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length%3A32000%7Ccontrol_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_x%3A11900%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_x%3A7500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A5800%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_y%3A9500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_strut_axis%3A14000%7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Csteering.active%3A1%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_x%3A11000%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_y%3A-4000%7Cwheels.offset%3A2850%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1000%7Cwheels.diameter_expl%3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3A0%7Ctires.section_width%3A17500%7Ctires.aspect_ratio%3A7500%7Ctires.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.width_expl%3A7620%7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26rear%7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bottom_y%3A9200%7Cframe.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A28500%7Cframe.bottom_to_upper_mount_y%3A24000%7Cframe.center_to_lower_mount_x%3A17000%7Cframe.bottom_to_lower_mount_y%3A2400%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length%3A24800%7Ccontrol_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_x%3A15000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_x%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_upper_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_strut_axis%3A14000%7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Csteering.active%3A0%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_x%3A7620%7Csteering.hub_to_outer_tie_rod_y%3A7620%7Cwheels.offset%3A4000%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwheels.diameter_expl%3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3A0%7Ctires.section_width%3A19500%7Ctires.aspect_ratio%3A4500%7Ctires.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.width_expl%3A7620%7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26pref%7Bdiag1.px_per_mm%3A150%7Cdiag1.front_or_rear%3Afront%7Ctab.active%3A0%7Cunits%3A1%7Cshow.f%3A1%7Cshow.ca%3A1%7Cshow.k%3A1%7Cshow.st%3A1%7Cshow.stl%3A1%7Cshow.w%3A1%7Cshow.t%3A1%7Cshow.rc%3A1%7Cshow.rcl%3A1%7Cshow.ic%3A1%7Cshow.icl%3A1%7Cshow.fvsa%3A0%7Cshow.tl%3A0%7Cshow.kpil%3A0%7Credraw_during_drag%3A1%7Cchart.x_axis_center%3A0%7Cchart.x_axis_window%3A10%7Cchart.x_axis_num_steps%3A21%7Cchart.x_axis_field%3Atrim.body_roll_angle%7Cchart.y_axis_fields%3A%5BFR%5D.general.roll_center.y%7D
Thanks for the link buddy! I have tried some of these before and it can get me close but I've never been able to get it exactly like my setup. Sounds like this one might be a little easier to input. I'll give it a go, thanks for the link!
Thanks for the link to that tool. Very helpful!
Can you have a tiny bit of camber change with the rear wheels? Great video by the way
Yes, matter of fact having them lean in a little is pretty good. On this build I kept them straight only because they are already to close to the fenders.
@@DougBugBuilder thank you
Heyzz what books do you used to read for suspension design???
No books really, I played with and raced radio controlled cars for the majority of my life. Almost everything I learned about design and tuning offroad suspension I learned from those cars.
Can you guide me to the sources I can use for better understanding of vehicle suspension
@@gauravlakheraofficial This is a good resource. amzn.to/2Tv3D1m
nice video, I just want to understand the representation on the chassis the half inch fixed points drawn in circles....
The half inch holes are my bolt holes. Those really reflect the tabs on the chassis that the control arms will bolt to.
Is there ever a point where you can have too much angle on your arms on droop?
Yeah two real issues with to much droop.
First is that it causes the track width to get to narrow. With that you lose traction and it gets unstable.
Second is it can cause the connection points to much stress if the arms droop to much. Because the force gets transferred to the bolts before the shock if it droops to much. But it has to be pretty extreme for that.
@@DougBugBuilder any idea what that max angle is before energy starts transferring into the chassis and pivot points and less into the suspension? I have heard 30 degrees max droop on the lower arm and I’ve heard no more than 135 degrees between upper arm and spindle. But haven’t found out the real science relating this information.
How come you're not running SLA double wishbone? I don't know anything about offroad vehicles and you mentioned you don't want any camber gain, how come?
Technically this is SLA, but the difference in length is only about 1/2".
I don't want camber gain because this bug is pretty small. When the suspension cycles to full bump the tires really get up near the chassis. I wouldn't have room if they were tipped in at the top with camber gain.
Make more vedios on chasis and suspension design and links...
I should have the new shop set up here soon. Then I plan to really focus on chassis and suspension videos.
At this point, you showed what would happen if you moved the pivot point of the upper control arm (czcams.com/video/73qUJBAgd8o/video.html). Would the same result occur if you lengthened the upper and kept the original pivot point (the one you circled)?
I'm trying to understand what dictates the length of the control arms (besides the track width you want to achieve). If the lower control arm determines the track width AND you don't have the option of moving the pivot point of the upper, what happens when you change the length of the upper?
Your 1:1 model is very, very cool. Thanks for sharing, I am really enjoying your videos.