Post Office 'has case to answer for corporate manslaughter', senior Tory MP says | ITV News
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- čas přidán 3. 04. 2024
- A senior Conservative MP who questioned Paula Vennells and the Post Office in 2015 on the Horizon IT Scandal says the organisation has a "case to answer for corporate manslaughter" and "criminal wrongdoing".
After hearing a secret recording obtained by ITV News, Nadhim Zahawi said the former Post Office boss and her team “were not telling the truth” when they gave evidence to the House of Commons Business and Skills Committee nine years ago.
Read the full story here: www.itv.com/news/2024-04-04/n...
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This is an absolute joke, Paula needs to be in prison FFS
👍🏾
She’s a psychopath.
Not just vennells, van der bogart et al should joining her. The post office person on the tape " what are you looking for" she knew and was being obstructive. Pity we don't have stocks anymore. I'd be there with my tomatoes.
It's a good example of the establishment protecting their own
All of the various bosses who participated in this scandalous situation should all be in jail.
It's not like a conspiracy, IT IS A CONSPIRACY
My exact thoughts..!!!
That actually remains to be proven in court. Just saying it is a conspiracy doesn't make it true - unless you have a MAGA hat and Qanon horned helmet.
Media likes to water down things as usual
@@weylandyutani9622 check armat industries, mr weyland
Doors need kicking in and arrests need to be made URGENTLY.
@@thetruth9210and many more who were involved eg fujitsu. Imprisonment for them 25 years
back doors!!
Why does it take TV shows to cajole the police into investigating?
It's like they're being embarrassed into doing their job when they can't avoid it any more.
100%
Exactly
The police are there to keep the sheep in their pens. Heels will be dragged and justice arrive via snail mail to corporate bosses.
Yes.
There more interested in arresting comedians and freedom of speech
Post Office management should be held accountable rather tomorrow than next week.
they put people in charge that can vanish via stress in a couple years before anything really bites . Mone had to go b/c she was healthy
Dream on.
And jimmy saville should have been jailed in the 80s, alastair campbell and nlair should be on jail fir war crimes.
As geirge carlin said, its a big club amd you aint in it.
@@deadprivacydo you have any evidence against Tony Blair, because it would kinda help prosecute him. While there is evidence against the post office
@@phill6859 Yeah, a million+ dead bodies and just about as many lies!
"can we keep the language not emotional" says all you need to know about the heartless people behind this travesty of justice !! Shame on her !
Usual corporate bollocks where you are meant to use appropriate and not emotional language to act professional, like turning your personality off and ensuring your inner psychopath is able to surface
I heard FACTS, no emotion, only facts.
It embarrassed her as she knew how they’d stitched these postmasters up.
yes please we must obay YT and not hurt poor puala's feeling YT does not like decent to tory rules .it might hurt poor puala's feeling .they could send the police round the met police for wrong think in places like birmingham and further north .and this is not a joke this very real ........for us .thank god me do not live in a place that sounds like nazi germany .thank god we got brittish justice to trust and the tory party .
Belinda is just awful isn't she
British justice is as slow as a Post Office delivered letter.
2nd class
No it's not, it's working absolutely fine as it was designed by toffs just for toffs but for the likes of me & you it's another set of rules entirely hence the good ole British justice system....!!!
@@govermentsoundsystemrootik8887 Jolly dee, but my post seems to take a jolly long time nowadays.
@@njd2342 I'm like WTF or " I beg your pardon 🤔", which one do you think im settling for 🧐
That's the Royal Mail side - they shared the same issues at the start of this when they were the same body, though.
We need to stop waiting for the enquiry. The police should investigate now. Theres simply too much evidence of wrong doing to wait another few years for a report.
We have a police force and courts for these situations.
True there isn't a legal reason to wait, they could be collecting the evidence and interviewing now. There might be a reason to wait for civil cases but not criminal.
Yes but the police are more concerned with arresting peaceful protestors. Doing a proper investigation require somebody in the police force to get off their arses and do some work. The senior officers are more concerned with budgets and paper shuffling.
Police too busy prosecuting the poor
Investigate and prosecute senior civil servants for malicious prosecutions and perjury? The police and crown prosecutors might feel that's too close to the bone for their liking.
@@faithlesshound5621 POLICE investigation now or they can add Senior police Commissioners to the list for prosecution. Doing nothing is just helping to cover up the crimes of Post Office management.
Belinda Cortes-Martin must be tried, and I hope she’s not emotional.
Belinda Cortes-Martin "Can we keep the language not emotional..." Staggering words of an almost pompous & uncaring level...
Managment speak trying to control the conversation
I hear it all the time and it drives me insane.
It is quite emotional for the victims, funnily enough.
Paula Vennells, Anglican priest and past ethical investment advisor to the church of England. Once touted for the post of Bishop of London.
So much for values....
I’ll say it again and I agree with you and everyone else, she needs to be reprimanded in custody pending the outcome of any enquiry. Not just her either.
Facade management of pure evil.
She is a true psychopath. There a lot of them about and they all gravitate to positions of power.
Telling him off for "emotional" language? They destroyed the lives of so many people.
The lives of others do not matter to such people.
So true.
How on earth is vennels and her mob not locked up ? A disgrace
They haven't been charged with anything, with is the usual starting point for criminal proceedings.
@@jjefferyworboys8138we could launch a private prosecution against them. I'm sure we could crowd fund one, then use proceeds of crime to get all their money.
Police would rather go after easy targets who can’t afford lawyers
@jjefferyworboys8138 why haven't they been charged ? . Vennels has lied in 2015 and its proven as fact
The mob needs bring down !
Arrest Vennells now!
It doesn’t work like that they will give her a bigger honour than she’s got than if the enquiry keeps going they will start to eat each other 😂😂😂😂😂
can we remove emotional language....amoral sociopath talking there....
Its a case for the police. Not poleticians.
agreed, but the police are not acting.
Even the politicians are saying that the police need to be involved both parties as well.
The police are busy cracking down on hate crimes.
@@plasticbudgieYep. Scouring social media for hurty words……
It's a case for MI5, Military Intelligence and Military Police, as this has affected UK communications infrastructure.
Belinda Cortes-Martin also needs to be arrested for fraud.
Ron Warmington was spot on with his questions to these liars
There are going to be villains who eventually will get caught but there will also be heroes.
These top executives of the Post Office continually express sorrow for what has happened. Folks, you've all got it wrong. They're expressing sorrow for being caught, for their plans being undone, and for having to be dragged into a public enquiry. For ten years or more, they expressed no remorse or regret for the hundreds of innocent people having their lives trashed. After all, these poor people having their lives trashed were little people, who were potentially in the way of the Post Office's grand plans.
i'm waiting for the tory sound bite poor puala it in the post for sure.
How many more cases of outright official corruption that nobody answers for will I learn of during my life? …I am now 65 years old and have watched the cases roll on by time after time with nobody brought to account for the evil they have been knowingly responsible for.
Same, it's grotesque.
The blood scandal has been going on since the 70s I think, and still not sorted.
It's disgraceful
Here's one: Definitive Map Review of public rights of way; when the 20yr landowner dedication rule was clarified by Highways Act 1980 & written into W & C Act 1981; twenty years later (2001) DEFRA was created as a political mechanism to process many thousands of artificial/fabricated discoveries of dedication. Systemic sham public inquiries took/take place where the only place victims can challenge the public fraud was/is in the High Court.
Was the Foot & Mouth pandemic of 2001 a deliberate act to facilitate the complex mechanism to facilitate the administrative frauds: PROW's should be protected and improved, but not forged by events similar to the Post Office scandal. Corruption in public office is cancerous to good honest society. The primary difficulty re PROW is whether Parliament is in on the scandal. House of Lords Alconbury Finding 2001 enabled a gateway to avoid the principles of natural justice: adjusting the event of a public inquiry/hearing to an administrative act unbalancing the scales of justice to favour political criminals.
Please include the vaccine injured among that ignored corruption.
Well hopefully a lot since 65 is quite young in my opinion. You can live another 40+ years and still be within natural human lifespan so you'll probably continue to be tormented by this kind of thing particularly since it has been going on since time immemorial.
These slime at the PO prosecuted sub post masters for another 6 years after they were told in no uncertain terms that there was a problem with the horizon system. Every single person in the PO management team that knew should be facing prison time. It wont happen because we live in a soft society and these people have money, power and influence.
It's people in high places protecting these people, talk about who you know
Exactly they must find corrupt post masters before it makes them look really bad 😢😢😢😢
@@daviddowns8068No, it’s the “Management class”. They get away with everything because the people who should prosecute them are from the same class.
Evil has influence? There's no hope for the honest ones then.
We live in a tory society. That's why it won't happen.
The only sorrow they feel, is for themselves. The game appears to be up.
Everyone who has done wrong is sorry when found out, it's a common human condition. Whether anyone will be held accountable is another matter.
Taken far too long to get the guilty prosecuted. Did not take that long to get innocent people castergated.
Disgraceful, they knew all along but still prosecuted innocent people.
Welcome to the Paula Vennells standard of morality.
How absolutely terrible 😢
@@noeleneroodt783 I think Paula Vennells has no idea of just how much she has outraged the British sense of decency.
“Can we keep out emotions” shows you exactly how things like this happen.
I am watching all of this from New Zealand and even from this distance I cannot understand why, when it is so bleedingly obvious that your Post Office knew that they were persecuting innocent people over many years and having become aware of that, continued to do so, the Police are not all over this and seem reluctant to be there.
Another thing that needs answering is why, after Horizon was installed and suddenly it seemed that the Sub- Post Offices were seeming staffed by a variety of larcenous crooks, nobody in a senior position actually thought. ''Hey, wait a minute, why have we not seen these losses and criminal behaviour before, what has changed, surely we have not suddenly got all these people stealing from us"" ! Was the Post Office protecting Fujitsu, or what was their motive in so blindly defending Horizon?
Exactly right. Noone involved at the higher corrupt levels wanted the truth. The tentacles spread far and wide protecting and trapping everyone wrapped up inside the mess.
They knew. Unfortunately the Post office is policed internally and they were incompetent, unprofessional bullies. Now the police need to get involved. I really hope many do go to jail for a long time and get huge fines.
And Fujitsu continue to work with government, they must have made billions fron the British taxpayer.
My observation of management is that they have almost a superstitious belief in the efficacy of computers no matter the evidence. They don’t understand that they are simply plastic and wires and programmed by people.
A brilliant comment. I agree, in any other world you would look for the catalyst. In this case it was staring them in the face. But there was greed and corruption at play.
Paula has to been sent to Prison! Just unbelievable!!
You mean Paula venereal ? She is a disease
"If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear.".
Hand over ALL the documents and emails, without exception.
Its called transparency.
They will but they got to check them first in case they find some thing that makes them look baldish
"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" doesnt really mean much in a situation where people who literally had nothing to hide (subpostmasters) were made to fear
3:12 . . the lawyer and Cortes-Martin should be dis-barred and charged. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have to ask, what these terrible no-moral people did to get to their powerful positions ? How many people's lives in the past, have they ruined on their quest to climb to the top of the "corporate ladder" ? Appalling human beings.
Amoral.
That smile's about to be wiped from Belinda's mug.
Anyone asked Vennels whether she still considers herself as being a Christian? Just asking....🤬
What has being a Christian have anything to do with it? Their history isn’t free of the worst treatment to mankind anyway, tortured for being a blasphemer or burnt alive at the stake, yeah they aren’t a nice bunch. Atheists have a better moral conduct.
Remember the Crusades! Remember Ferdinand and Isabella!
@@philhart4849 Justin Welby was Treasury Director of BP. He was roped in to get a grip on the finances, but as the fiasco of the Coronation Oath shows, he has no idea of Human Rights. The flipside is that the Church is all about Penitent Confession, but we see none, despite the evidence. And on a larger scale, go reread the sixth and seventh Chapters of the Gospel of Matthew, which are explicit on how the relationship with the Divine must work, and give the bum's rush to Organised Religion as a whole. It must be intensely personal, and eschew other pontification.
Why is that relevant
@@lucylane7397 Because the Churches are a massive betrayal of Christ. They preach universal Salvation, not through the Spirit, but the Fellowship. Go read Matthew Chapter 6 on the subject, running into Chapter 7. She was a Minister BEFORE she joined POL, and thus there's no Road to Damascus revelation, just a weak and manipulable charade faced with power.
perverting the course of justice, the management of the post office have a lot to answer for
'Justice delayed is justice denied'
Remember that quote? This is just kicking the can down the road. There is an urgent need for fast track inquiries not shenanigans that take decades till they are 'too old to stand trial' or 'it wouldn't be in the public interest'.
Any further evidence of wrong doing and the perpetrators can be retried at a later date. Meanwhile all those implicated should have their passports revoked and charged for corporate manslaughter.
I am absolutely sick of the way things are done in the UK, what happens? we hold an Inquiry, takes years and does nothing (other than
make the legal profession a packet). Covid Inquiry a case in point. The police need to be involved NOW - mind you they will probably take
years as they appear endlessly to be unable to find their backside with either hand.
Basically they need to go to prison
That's unlikely, although it does appear that a great injustice was knowingly committed to innocent people..
A court of law however is very different to the court of public opinion.
This Scandal gets worse by the Day, and it looks as if all they are doing is Kicking it down the Road, why has it taken so long for these Telephone calls to come out.
The only sorrow which Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennels feel is the thought of themselves being tried and prosecuted, NOT for the victims of the massive scandal.
So what that the Judge will have the power to question under oath. We all know by now that it's perfectly acceptable to lie under oath, especially if you're a Post Office executive!
i carnt recall anyone or anything, it was a long time ago
@@seanhaywood4597 Well, if you have no defence, plead guilty to save time. This is the prosecution case.
I cannot wait for the inquiry to resume. Air it live.
"I hope there is enough room in prison" Even prison will not atone for the heinous crimes against the Post Masters treated so despicably.
There is in Colchester.
The Met is going to work really hard to do a cover-up on this one. What is the minimal number of scapegoats necessary for everything to blow over?
How many plehs does it take to make a better than you one 😂😂😂😂
Everyone who was involved in this should be prosecuted and jailed, absolute disgrace
Paula Vennels and others who went along with her decisions and actions need to hear the door slamming behind them. Otherwise the UK system of public inquirery and justice is broken beyond repair.
It would be refreshing, but I wouldn't hold your breath for a personal criminal conviction.
I hate it when people like that say “can we keep the language from being emotional?” Why? So that you don’t have to deal with how your actions have made other people feel?
Can we assume that the rich in power will protect their rich mates from the Post Office?
Yes we can...
My heart goes out to these poor people who’s lives have been ruined
Can we put Paula & her executive in custody until they get to the bottom of this ?
As no one has been charged with anything it's a definite no. Even if charged that's still no.
So ironic that politicians think it’s terrible when others lie..
Everyone lies, but some lies are bigger and have a greater impact than others.
All the persons involved on the legal advice who intentionally suppressed evidence, stone walling and lying to the committees should have their professional licences cancelled for ever and prosecuted
It's utterly disgusting.
It’s a bit rich that Belinda Cortes-Martin accuses a witness of the heinous crime of ‘using emotive’ language. He was simply stating a fact. People were literally dragged away in handcuffs for non-existent crimes
What for the truth, it's all there to hear, scandalous, absolutely disgusting
ITV's Adam Crozier was Royal Mail chief executive from 2003-2010.
Justice cannot wait for the enquiry to be completed.
Same old story...One rule for one and one rule for another🤬.....if there's any justice left in this country, then these lying lowlifes need prison time for sure.....
This is murder...
TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE TWO MPs. THERE IS NO TEASON WHY THE POLICE SHOUKD NOT CONDUCT PARALLEL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS (In consultation with the Public Inquiry).
In fact it is essential - because evidence or witnesses before the Inquiry may well be PREJUDICING A POLICE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION!!!!
The inquiry and Police need to move fast before evidence starts mysteriously disappearing.
Yes another Public Sector Service, totally demolished and Dimised, again and again and again 😢😢😢😢😢
Prison for at least how long this has gone on
I thought this kind of garbage only happened where I live. The USA.
The cowards are scattering, slithering around & in hiding !
Utter corruption right through the entire establishment
Isn't Vennells involved with the church I bet she doesn't practice what she preaches, it's all a sham.
I've been wondering for quite a while why the post office are not facing corporate manslaughter charges. Could it be because they are part of the establishment?
I can’t see that ever happening. My brother committed suicide 30 years ago naming the people in the organization that had ruined his career. I was devastated and when discussing it with my doctor was told clearly that no one could ever be held responsible for another person’s decision. I had his suicide note in black and white but to claim corporate manslaughter would be impossible to prove and set a precedent that has so many implications.
The amazing thing is that the conspiracy theories are all true.
Not all conspiracies are false. Most are - and I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist - but I could take a reasonably well-informed guess at why justice is being repressed in this case. Many of the people involved are members of an organisation that takes an oath to protect its members above all else. Care to take a guess at what that organisation might be?
@@malloid not the head. Women can’t join.
Many of the police who're involved; many of the higher-ups at the PO, and many politicians, are members of an organisation that swears an oath to protect its members above all else. That's why nothing is happening - and probably won't happen - to the perpetrators of this heinous crime. The rich and powerful have connections that protect them, at the expense of everybody else. A lot of people involved in this conspiracy need to be charged, and convicted, if guilty. But even many of the judiciary are members of the same organisation that is protecting these people. Getting justice is going to be more than just an uphill battle - it needs the British people to wake the f**k up and finally realise who is running the show here.
Spot on with this comment. Couldn’t agree more. That’s why the Met haven’t got stuck into the top management of the Post Office. 🤯
This fiasco just gets worse and worse, I think they have hit the bottom and then more horror is discovered.
They lied under oath and should have their day in court.
Someone needs to go to jail
@@thetruth9210 And if there's no space, Gruinard or St Kilda would work.
Can the police be assumed to be impartial?
Prison for the fat cats? That's just for people who protest this kind of injustice or were victims of this injustice. No time spared on the miscarriages of justice plenty of prosecutions there but no rush on compensation or holding the real criminals to account.
That's because Sarah Munby's little message to Henry Staunton on behalf of the Treasury was No to compensation. He should have resigned on the spot, accusing those who recruited him of misrepresentation.
Bit rich coming from a Tory MP... 🤷
Watch out for the pretense of remorse. It is actually damage control.
Fair play to Second Sight in all of this. They appear to have a wonderful moral compass and weren’t afraid to upset their employers to ensure it was followed!
Any normal person has something called morales….these top bosses had none….yet took massive bonuses.
Normal people, like you and I, don't become top bosses, we lack the necessary qualifications.
@@jjefferyworboys8138 Ruthlessness, connections and a PR budget.
Morales? A Mexican bandit?
Oh, I think you mean morals?
On the other hand, they have behaved like Bandits. Morales it is then. Lol.
They are all sorry because they have been caught
I think it's clear to everyone, the post office as a business is finnished. What once was a trusted and well respected part of our society is now just in the toilet. In my opinion all top management need prosecuting to the full extent of the law. Fujitsu also need to have all government contracts either suspended or cancelled. It's blatantly obvious they all can't be trusted to tell the truth.
You'd be in operational trouble if you did. A break-up, on the other hand, as happened to the Bell monopoly and GEC has possibilities.
Why would a British business turn Finnish?
Perhaps because they are finished?
@@bootstrapperwilson7687 Because Father Christmas has a far better reputation for not only delivering parcels but also telling good little boys and girls from bad ones?
These people are corrupt but in their hearts they will feel no guilt. It's a particular feature of the English class system
the country is getting depressed and the whole nation once great , has lost it's appeal as a safe and properous country .
Is GETTING depressed? That's eerily reminiscent of the Eastender in 1940, surrounded by ruins, pronouncing, "That there 'itler, if 'ee goes awn like this, he's gonna get himself disliked." Fortunately the Nation is more that BH (Calcutta) Failed, Wellington and Tatty Oldbit.
I am convinced that there won’t be a single prosecution for perjury or conspiracy to pervert the course of justice for any PO or Fujitsu employee and there certainly won’t be a corporate manslaughter charge. Nor will any barrister or solicitor who worked for the Post Office suffer any serious professional penalty.
Agreed. It happens too often.
Emotion will override logic…
They don’t want to be treated the way they treated others.
Tough 😎
A brilliantly well put together piece of reporting!
“We have provided all the documents we think we should give you….” There is the criminality right there.
If it’s not this scandal it will be other government departments such as CMS and DWP.
Just needs time to expose this and people power!!!
I am one of the victims of the Post Office and I would like to say this. We are seeing what back in the day would be called "the Establishment" closing ranks. They are all pointing the finger at the Post Office bosses (rightly to some extent) but then trying to escape accountability themselves.
Every single political party at senior level knew about this and approved of it, yet none of them are in the firing line. Nothing done by the legal oversight bodies with regard to solicitors and barristers misconduct, nothing done with regard to the judges who presided over the miscarriages of justice, at the very least they should be made to review these cases and work out how they got it so wrong, and none of the senior civil servants involved who also knew and are known to have incentivised the POL management to do this.
How many Post Offices were closed never to open again and was this simply a way of closing down the network without paying the compensation Postmasters should have received.
Why is this taking so long. The CEO and her staff should hand back their bonuses and face jail. Who is dragging this out!
Michael Keegan needs to be interviewed by the police too.
Get the police up to speed
My mind just blew. Anyone seen it? It touched the ozone layer before burning up on reentry.
Wow. How much evidence is needed. Stone cold criminal behaviour. That programme director is so defensive in those calls
Worth noting: this particular conservative MP - Nadhim Zahawi - was sacked (as chancellor no less!) for not declaring his tax interests, after being fined £5m by HMRC.
He also billed the taxpayer for heating his stables. He actually expensed that.
Pot, meet kettle.
Mr Blair needs to answer questions and junior ministers that were involved at the time a Horizon contracts were given out. To many Brown developed have been passed around behind closed doors. Yes the post office execs are culpable but so.are the ministers.
If this is kept out of the courts now, there is no justice in this country for the common man or woman, these are clearly very serious issues and they need their day in court.
Long overdrew where has accountability gone?
Why are you asking Zahawi for his opinion? He lost any and all right to give an opinion on supposed (well, actual) withholding of information to help with an inquiry and investigation when he obfuscated the investigation into his own tax affairs.
The execs who clearly lied need substantial prison time.
Bit rich for Zahawi to accuse them of not telling the truth!! His tax settlement is just that- it’s a deal: no full frank and open disclosure and no certainty he’s in fact paid the tax he should have done if he hadn’t concocted the ownership model he did. Not someone to hand out lessons
Why was Jenkins not questioned over his previous position at ICL which designed Horizon before Fujitsu bought out.
Paula Vennells and others have to go to prison.
Why have these people not been given prison time ?
The Post Office Managers need to be prosecuted. Prison time for sure. I'm an accountant and the question I'm still asking myself is, "Why on earth was this 'secret unit' in Bracknell changing the branch accounts anyhow?" I just cannot fathom the purpose why? Was it just a bunch of Post Office or Fujitsu techies playing around for a laugh or were Post Office managers perpetrating a fraud to cook the books. Either way, it's a failure of management and the senior Post Office managers at that time are guilty of gross negligence, a failure of proper care to their employees and as the news item says, corporate manslaughter. This is such an appalling story. To think Vennells is a vicar says a lot about her hypocritic, if not schizophrenic, morality. The most worrying thing is, the Post Office hasn't changed, this culture is still there and you will find such indifference, such avoidance of accountability and such lacking on so many levels throughout all public sector bodies. I know from personal experience that rather than deal with a problem, a public sector body would rather slap on a non-disclosure agreement. The behaviour of the so called managers is absolutely disgraceful. If these Post Office managers sleep at night, it shows they have no conscience whatsoever. Perhaps time in prison will provide the time for reflection they so obviously need. My condolences are with those that died and were prosecuted unfairly by these Post Office criminals and that is what they are, conspiratorial criminals.
Tyburn!
They should all be in prison!