Solar Panels - Do They Make Financial Sense in 2023?
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- čas přidán 20. 04. 2023
- I've used my Solar Array data and current prices to give you an idea on how much you may save, and the tools for you to figure it out for your situation! Because everyones situation is different!
Excel Sheet (Open then Save As): 1drv.ms/x/s!AuJ5inLfMKQsk8Qfj...
Website: www.ev-man.co.uk
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#homeenergy #solarpanels #solarpv - Věda a technologie
I was lucky in January to win some money, so bought a 10 x410w Longi panels and a 5kw battery system on a South facing roof It was installed mid February, and in March it was virtually 50/50 between grid and solar. April upto now has seen me use 82% from solar and the battery. The house is currently at £9.15 for the month, excluding the standing charge. I have also put 85kw into the car from the solar this month, so this is adding to the savings. I look it as not giving the energy companies any more of my money than I have to.
If you invested a £10,000 win at 5% it would be £33,863 after 25 years.
Conservatively, £10,000 on your pension would be worth £25,000 in 25 years - tax free - more likely £30,000.
A solar array cannot compete with either.
@@jimskirtt5717 ever heard of inflation?
@@jimskirtt5717 Yes you are right, I just worked out the example in my main comment, people seem to forget that these installs won't last forever 25 years for example and you won't receive the initial cost of the panels install back.
@@joekupa
Read my full post above - I take full account of inflation in those figures, wise guy.
@@jimskirtt5717 let’s see who wins this debate after 5 years from here guys 😂
Really good and quite representative of my solar savings of around £2K based on 80% consumption. The other thing to consider is battery storage at cheap rate at night over the winter time so for me on Octopus Go is 7p vs 40p and load shifting that adds another £720. So £2,720 return in one year.
Great summary. So many factors to take into play as you mention so difficult to break down the figures for individual circumstances. I had mine installed in December and loving the journey so far, especially now the days are getting longer and longer! 👍
Spent 10k on Solar + battery Sept 22.
Since then saved £700, including the export is covering both standing charges and gas bill as well.
Also, since moving to Octopus Flux, since March, they've paid me £60, and it's looking like they'll owe me nearly £100 for April.
Best with batteries imho, for those lean / dark winter months.
Still not convinced about a heatpump, but that's another story I guess.
Heatpumps are so very, very worth it mate. Especially if you have solar and a battery! Get in touch with Octopus. They're installing one for us, with the increased £7500 bus Grant and octopus chucking another £250 into it, we're paying about £3700 for a full install. And they do a big, proper investigation on your property, so the install should be spot on. Ours is going in at end of January, would have been earlier but had some hiccups with planning permission due to neigh our proximity, etc.
Nice work EVM!
Nice video. One of the one's I now look out for.
Opposite here in France - 6c a kwh between 2330 and 0730, FIT of 27c for solar export. About 30c import during the day. So I try and do everything between 2330 and 0730 and export as much as possible.
Great video thank you
Nice video, thanks
Excellent video, well explained
Luckily jumped into solar PV back in early 2012. So managed to lock in the original FIT contract. All I will say is that I am very very happy with the investment I put on my roof. Very similar annual generation profile to yours and interestingly as I have always tracked the generation I can confidently state I have seen no reduction in solar panel generation over the years when the panel data sheet suggests I would have seen some reduction by now.
Another great video explaining a very complicated topic. Essential comment is the "do your own research", as everybody is different. I was incredibly lucky in that I got solar installed early last year, but was on a 2yr fixed contract from before the energy crisis, so have actually been exporting at a higher rate than my fixed import rate. It's going to be a shock come the summer when I need to re-fix/change tariff. 😀
Batteries?
@@Richard482 To be added. Missus wasn't keen on them at the time, and wouldn't shift. She has since admitted she was wrong (but I couldn't get it in writing 😁).
Just had solar and battery installed a week ago by a brilliant company based in Cardiff. Your videos were a help building the right system for us, 4.8kw array with 4.8 kwh batteries adding another 2.4kwh battery soon. You can calculate your savings quite easily using your consumption figures in Watts from 2022 (not the price). I also wanted to add solar for the future as it will take 7 to 10 years to pay back. Currently raining and I am getting 0.5 kw off the south facing array. Max in the sunshine was 4.8 kw last week (18 kw over 8 hours). House right now using 0.13kw with just desktop PC, router,fridge freezer etc running. I also changed all our light bulbs to LED over the past 5 years (10 LED down lights now draw the same as 1 Halogen bulb and the LED's are brighter, 50 Watts compared to 500 Watts). I charged my EV car when sun was out with excess solar and got 30% charge while dryer and washing machine was on. Importing about 2 kw per day from the grid so £40 to £45 per month bill including standing charge and that's a £100 to £150 saving per month (Minimum of £1000 a year balanced over 12 months). Car charging will save £40 at least per month on top of house consumption. Online quoted install costs don't include additional install wiring and consumables which will vary house to house because of access and cable runs. My system cost £10,300 with a 5 kw inverter so a similar system will cost between £10,000 and £12,000.
Great video, really helps people calculate return on investment if that's the most important criteria for them. I got solar for enviro benefits installing first small system 30 years ago....boy was that expensive.
Solar is so cheap now, have 2 systems on house. Grid connected 10 kW system generated 4,400 kWh and self consumed 1,100kWh Inc charging EV. Haven't got stats at hand for 5kW off grid system but we generally use 8kWh daily from it.
Hats off to everyone who can manage to have solar installed, very satisfying making your own fuel. 👍
Interesting as always. So I am now 3 months into my Journey. 15 panels (south facing), 10kw SolarEdge battery and inverters, podpoint charger and Audi EV. Octopus Energy Go tarriff. Even though the weather has not been great, we are almost self sufficient 80% of the time through the first quarter of 2023.
Cost of the installation including bird covers for the panels was £16k so an initial big outlay, but I have seen an immediate reduction in our bills, and to top it off, Octopus Energy have just reduced the kWh to 9.5p overnight and 39.5 kWH during the day so will see further savings. Only had to use an external charger once so massive saving in car fuel costs.
My early verdict, expensive initial outlay, I estimate it will take between 7 and 8 years to repay itself so well worth the journey (not factoring in the additional cost of buying a new EV).
Keep up the good work.
I got solar panels in 2021 and it has been saving a great deal on my energy bills. I did also get 2 smart home batteries to store the excess. It also means that I can get an ev in the future. It cost nearly £10000 so a significant outlay but considering we shall stay in this house for at least the next 15-20 years it will have broken even before then. We have just under a 3000kwh system. I have also signed up to Octopus energy through your recommendation. Thank you for your insights.
@james36515 hi system I have is 10 Q Cell 335w panels on the roof, a FoxEss HYD 3.6 Minimum 2 batteries inverter and 2x FoxESS 2.6Kwh Lithium batteries (5.2Kwh)
Your videos are very useful and as I'm shortly going to be moving to a solar + battery setup with an electric car I'd gladly buy you a pint 😊
Thanks for the video, I have Solar in Texas and we get a bit more sun than y'all do. I have a rather large array due to more roof and sun and a bitter home, you know it's Texas. So I noticed last summer I exported more than 1.2MW from June through August. But my buyback won't even cover the $20 admin fee they charge to allow me to sell. That is changing here so I hope I'll sell at 3-4 cents this summer and make it worth selling back. I charge my two electric cars on the weekend when possible and most all of that is covered by my solar, so it definitely works having solar to say I can drive 300 miles and only pay for 20KW of the 135KW battery.
Very informative video as usual and I appreciate the time it must take to research and produce them.
One thing I've noticed is the potential missed to invest the initial outlay cost and possible returns is never mentioned in these types of videos not just by you but everyone....I don't mean just have it sat in a savings account but invested properly. Not done it myself because I'm piss poor but my son basically doubled his 10k investment in less than 4 years in a medium risk package with nutmeg. It's far better return than the solar well at least it has been for him because his energy usage is so small.
I'm on with my first small diy install at the moment and have another system already planned for in a couple of months.
If I'm producing more than I use I'll have to have a squint at used EVs again.
Keep up the good work I always take a lot from your vids.
You definite have to do you own research. It took me a couple of days to do that but is worth it.
The virtuous circle is panels, battery, EV and micro generator for hot water. The EV enables cheap electric tariff to supplement the solar in winter and makes the maximum of self consumption in the summer. Love the videos, very helpful.
Ordered my solar system last March, it was fitted in July - never looked back.
Saving us between £200-£250 per month, with water heating to save on gas use and any excess going into my EV. Also runs split AC in the summer for free and sometimes still generate too much to use.
System : 14x 400w panels, 10kWh battery, 5kW inverter and Eddi diverter
Now you can punch in the numbers in the excel file and check the accuracy. Or expand the file with more details.
How much did that panels+battery setup cost?
@@aliasgharkhoyee9501- the cost was £11k
What system are you using to heat the water? And does it work well?
@@JoseStevThey said they use an Eddi
Had panels fitted 7 years ago and they paid for themselves within about 5 years. I’m on a fit tariff so greater savings. Now have a 9kw battery set up and very pleased with all the savings I have made so far. Just need to get rid of the “ standing charge “ here in U.K. or at least get it reduced a lot
Removing the standing charge and rolling it into energy costs (infrastructure must be paid for) would make more sense and incentivise saving and also be less regressive. Think Octopus advocate for this but ultimately the government make the rules.
solars and tesla battery... works well great video!!
Thanks, we are all individuals, to quote "Life of Brian".
The key is avoid export, which I do with my EV to soak up the excess, and use a battery over Winter on a cheap night rate, load shift to night rate, and use high load items when you have max solar.
I think I have a 6 year payback, but your mileage may vary.
I think octopus flux makes the most sense with battery storage. Charge everything on the cheap rate at 20.39p kWh (02:00 - 05:00) (car, battery, hot water tank etc) then export surplus solar during the day at 22.98p kWh, then force discharge the battery during peak at 36.58p kWh (16:00 - 19:00) after tea, leaving enough to last you to the cheap rate at 02:00 again.
I think you need at least a 5 kw battery for that imo
I'll be getting 8 more panels, and a bigger battery too, and then I'll go onto flux
@@waqasahmed939 Interesting you mention that. A local solar installer near me will not fit a smaller battery than around 7kw. As I understand it, he feels that's the least capacity he feels works for the maximum saving......
@@Brian-om2hh You basically need enough to get you through a full day. However the return on having anything more than that rapidly diminishes.
@@RichardABWmore panels comes into play during the winter, imo. We can generate 3 to 5kwh on a cloudy day with a 4kw array. Double that array and it'll cover a far bigger chunk during the day
Watched one of your Solar Panel videos way back in early 2022, decided to go for it and managed to get an install of 12 panels + 2* batteries in July.
In the 8 months since then I have saved £700+, I don’t export much to the grid ( it very trivial anyway) and have not included it in any saving I could have made as I’m not signed up with my current supplier.
I am planning to switch over to Octopus Flux once I hit the 1-year mark in July, by then I’ll have a much better idea about how to run things.
Currently for this year , Jan-March , I have saved £150, now in April I have used in 21 days on 9kWh from the grid
Sounds like a really substantial solar installation, I wonder how much it costed and what the total capacity is.
just had solar panels instilled 3 weeks a ago 3.4kw no battery yet my be later. still on a 2 year fixed which ends in September not got much data yet. do have air pump heating /solar for water heater which would be a good tariff to look for in September we are with octopus. great info in video has help to get solar
great video on solar again, we have two setups, one is 4k with the old feed in tariff and a 3k 10.2 battery storage system all on a south facing roof
How have you found this. The house we bought two years ago has 4kw solar on the original feed in. Got £2500 odd last 12 months. Now thinking battery and extra solar for 0% vat. Have a myenergi Zappi as have a plug in hybrid and full ev due next month
@@keithjohnston1981 if you are going to install a new system go for it but make sure you have enough batteries, the cheep rate at night is not here for ever
@@robin5215 thanks. I’m getting prices at the moment. Been quoted 7k for. 10kw libbi. And double if want 14 405watt panels with it. We’ve been really fortunate and got a four year fixed when everything hit the fan so only pay 23p per kWh until oct 2024
Spot on sir
Have you considered non outdoor panels. Put them in your garage on a rack or basement or attic, spare bedroom etc... Then duct the light in from a Himiwari Sunflower or light tunnel. The Himuwari Sunflower has low roof space usage and low maintenance. Solar tracking and you can use the light to replace indoor old fashion socket lights. Or just feed panels or both. Instead of blank walls you can have solar wall "pictures" and ducted light. Make installation cheap and easy can be used on garage walls house walls etc...
I calculated that a combination of our solar, battery and time of day tariff saved us over £2,000 vs the price cap last year in a fully electric house with ASHP and EV.
Top video, this explains it well 👍
Side note- for a second I really thought you said, "Do you want to spend it on takeaways, smoking, drinking, holidays, a nicer CAT" 😂
I’ve got a 4kw solar on order with a Tesla power wall and my Eddie divert for the hot water. Hoping to save a fortune as live in Eastbourne which is apparently the sunniest place in the uk.
Great video, you do work out things properly, the problem I see for most people are not working out their savings and costs correctly, they then imagine they are getting a better return than they are.
Based on the example £792 savings, £6800 cost and a 8 year return, you then have 17 years of ‘free’ usage of the solar, if you assume they are scraped at year 25 (For arguments sake)
£6800 Initial investment
£792*17 years = £13464 savings after being paid for
Based on these numbers that is a 98% return over 25 years or 2.77% annually, this also excludes inflation.
This would exclude any finance, so if you are financing you need to really work out your savings and the costs involved.
also i never think about the payback, to us it's more about how much money we're not giving to the energy companies..
Yes, "payback" seems to be the holy trail. ..... We don't consider "payback" when purchasing a new car do we, because there isn't any, yet we as as nation buy new carss in their droves, why? Because "we want one"...not a sound financial reason at all. The same when we purchase a new kitchen, a new bathroom, landscape the garden....all of these are usually purchased without the thought of any financial gain or payback.
As EVM says, people spend their disposable income in many diverse ways.....gambling, boozing, holidays, hobbies, cars, even shoes!I
So spend it on what makes you happy and enjoy the ride, if you save or even make money from doing so consider it a worthwhile bonus!
Well, you should consider the payback before purchasing otherwise you will just be giving it to the solar companies!
@@egold33311 ok, the old 4k system cost 9995 pounds in 2011 and has made in fit payment 19860 pounds that's not including the free solar we have used, the new 3k system with batteries cost 12995 pounds so you do the math then😀
What I really like about Octopus is the work they are doing to make this make sense for different scenarios. After a comment I left on Twitter they sent me a message letting me know that Flux was my best bet as I have solar and a battery but no EV yet. I was concerned as I am also investing in Ripple and thought that excluded me from joining Octopus and getting onto their clever Tarifs as Ripples Partner is Coop powered by Octopus.
We’ve been laughing all the way to the bank with our solar, battery, 2x EVs. Reducing our day to day living expenses and leaving more cash in the hand at the end of the month.... it’s such a no brainer.
It's not a no brainer for everyone, espeically if you work out the sums correctly
I don't know in the UK if its possible to download from your power company your hourly consumption throughout the year as it is critical in establishing a solid percent utilization. To achieve you will also need to somehow estimate hourly production by month to better plan your ideal FV size and potential savings/payback. In Spain all companies supply this information.
Octopus Flux has turned my usage on its head. 20p overnight input, 35p peak time of output. I dump everything but what I need to last me 7pm to 2am during that 4-7 35p export rate.
Add an option I have to charge the car at work for 13p and I never charge at home any more.
You pointed me in the right direction when you did a video on batteries and the Octopus Go tariff. I am extremely grateful you did. As you say, you have to do your own sums. And I did. It demonstrated that a domestic battery should be a worthwhile investment. And then some miserable sod invaded Ukraine and buggered my numbers up. Now things have settled down and better tariffs are available I’m now starting to recoup my battery investment (Octopus Flux). Solar panels and batteries are a long term investment and treating them as anything otherwise is foolish. My suggestion is that if you are considering solar panels also think about domestic batteries and the heat storage batteries/solar diverters. With a Smart meter and appropriate time-of-day tariff you will also save money during months when there is little sun. For those thinking of investing in these sorts of product, start with a Smart meter to collect data. When you know how much you are using and when, start hunting out an installer. Look for someone local (ie. someone who’s lapels you can grab as you explain how dissatisfied you are). Look for a tidy van, someone literate (have a look at the rules for G98/99 applications - you need more than an illiterate sparky with a screwdriver and wire strippers) and someone who is prepared to help you understand what you are getting into. By the time they have left you might be £20,000 poorer but hopefully be saving/earning and breaking even within ten years. Fortunately ecoloons and climate gimboids are spreading so much doom and gloom the price of energy will outstrip inflation for years to come until politicians and governments realise the whole thing is a hoax.
perfectly said Trevor
The secret sauce for your own Solar is using it to charge a USED EV, since 2017 I have saved £12,000 not buying diesel with no increase in home electricity consumption, makes the payback period much faster.
We've only just had solar panels (and a battery) installed in the last few weeks so dont have enough data yet to know about payoff period etc. What I do know is were generating much more than we currently consume. Having said that we will be looking into electric heating at some point and I haven't looked into how to get our EV charger to use the excess solar yet.
I’ve also recently had a solar/battery storage system installed and I asked the installer to connect a CT clamp so that the Harvi can read how much solar is being generated and relay that information to the Zappi. I had to do a bit of fiddling about with the Zappi’s advanced settings (Harvi, connected devices, CT, generation), but now I can charge the car with pure solar up to a maximum of 3.6kWh, limited by the inverter. For topping up at the weekend or on sunny evenings it’s fantastic!
You said the 'magic' word..."BATTERY". To get the lowest possible levelized cost per kWh of energy storage (LCOS) you need a battery big enough to meet the full electrical demand of your house, car, and pond pump, for 24 hours continuous, without any outside energy source. When deciding how many panels, you need ~1/4 the installed capacity of the kWh storage capacity of your batteries. If you have an electric car, be sure to include the average kWh it takes to charge the car. You need to add that capacity to the home storage battery, and you need to add 1/4 that amount as installed capacity to the photovoltaic array. Normally, you use solar during the day, and that's when your demand is highest. Chores like washing cloths, vacuuming, having lights on, and even cooking on an electric stove happen during the day. At night, the batteries only have to run air conditioning for the last couple of hours in the evening, you might be watching television, and running the refrigerator. you'll seldom use even 1/3 that capacity. Now, charging an electric car will obviously use more, if you are at work, and can't charge during the day. Batteries will store and release the most kWh throughput over their life times, if utilized to 30-50% of their capacity, and a 24 Hour battery will operate in that range. That also gives some extra reserve on cloudy days, or, if needed when you have company over.
Great video. I used to do these calculations professionally, so I used this experience to design my own solar PV system to meet the typical daily usage pattern of my home. (Data obtained from the smart meter) Any excess power warms the HW tank via an EDDI unit and a small EV takes the rest, so export is minimal.
Despite living in dreich central Scotland in a house with a less than ideal east/west orientation, the system will have repaid itself in under 8 years.
No, it won't. Show me your data (as you evidently have them) to support that 8 year payback claim.
A typical 3kW solar array with batteries costs £9,795
It will typically generate 2,500 kWh a year
2,500 kW would cost £850 at 34p per kWh, so you’re saving £850 a year
So we can divide the cost of £9,795 by the annual saving of £850...
£9,795 divided by £850 = 11.5 years
In reality, things fail, like inverters at £750 a pop.
So more like 13 years...if ever.
@@jimskirtt5717 In your example if it then lasted 13 years @ £850 per year thats £11050 total return assuming no extra money has been spent, thats a total return over 25 years of 13% or 0.483% annually!
Imagine if the system was also financed!
@@jimskirtt5717 The 3.25 KWP system cost £5,440, including the EDDI management unit. (no batteries) Careful system planning ensures that nearly all power is consumed on-site and inverter is warrantied for 12 years, with a 25 year warranty on the panels.
I am currently saving over £700 per year on what I would have be paying without the solar PV system.
But as many other people have commented on the forum, the key to making this work is to have the system designed to meet the householder's specific needs, and were I not based at home and did not have an EV, my energy bill savings would be far less, as you rightly suggest.
@@egold33311
If you borrowed the money, then you'd definitely come a cropper. The Energy Trust pointed this out a few years back, as people who can't do basic maths were borrowing the money to fund their solar arrays!!!
@@briangriffiths114
Brian, thanks for replying. My data is typical. Yes, if you carefully worked it all out then you wouldn't need batteries. But that's no longer typical. The government is urging people to buy a battery set, and companies like Contact Solar are including it in their prices, now, as most people (typically) have to either sell the energy back or buy batteries. The 3kW set up including batteries costs almost £10,000 (Contact Solar data). In my full post elsewhere here, I give all the data showing that it just doesn't work out (admittedly lifted from a website which explains the madness of it). And I don't even include the cost of replacement batteries, which only last 10 years and cost £3,600 on average to replace! I have looked at it in depth for my large garage roof, but the maths shows it just doesn't work out.
You missed the best tariff on the market at the minute, certainly for the summer months. You mentioned FLUX but never did the maths. It gives a short window for battery/car charging but the longer, sunnier days give export at 22p and 34p! between 4pm and 7pm. Best summer tariff by far, use intelligent tariff from October.
Regards,
Bill
Need to add interest payments on borrowing for installation cost. Anyone with a mortgage could overpay by install cost amount so mortgage interest rate can be applied.
Over the last few years I have invested in panels, batteries, ashp, ev. House is 100% electric, I do 1300 miles per month, this month Octopus will pay me. I am now on Flux and I feel great being green. For the most part it is all home improvement work every addition adds some value to my home. It is a journey well worth starting. What I would say is do not skimp on panels, while 4kw is enough for most if you have the roof space for more get more. Panels are very cheap. Once you have them you can add more options bit by bit as funds allow. Shop around for installers until you find one who speaks clearly and is helpful who suggests different panels, inverters etc rather than just pushing kit they currently have in stock. Some good deals to be had.
Would you say it's better to get batteries first.(and use the night tariffs), as otherwise plenty of solar power is wasted?
@Ali Asghar Khoyee pv is a cheaper way to start and should see better savings over a year. Excess can be sold back to the grid too. But pv isn't suitable for everyone and an ac coupled battery is easier/quicker to install. So depends on circumstances? Personally I'd go pv first and time appliances to run when the sun's out 😊
Good analysis. I think electricity prices should come down and payback period would go back to 15+ imo.
Would like your view on Ripple energy community solar, they are low on details about cost per kWh ATM though.
Great to have an update. We used your first video as part of our research before getting our solar. We did over estimate what we thought we could use, though. For others to learn from, We are on track for 35% usage over a full year. 3.8kW install, with no real divert options. No hot water cylinder, no car charger. We are home at the weekends and 2 days working from home. Rest of the week we are home about 5.30. Regular do 3x washing machine use, 3x dryers and 2x dishwashers a week. Switched to an oil filled heater during winter when wfh to use more of the solar. I even heat water on the induction hob when home and exporting. I store the water in a few thermos flasks to use when cooking and washing up.
That's great to hear, I would've thought most UK houses would be using more like 8kw worth of solar panels.
Is your house well-insulated? And have you tried far infrared heating panels, and adding a battery to save the otherwise lost solar power?
@@aliasgharkhoyee9501 We were funds and time limited. We were installing external insulation to our Victorian property at the time. It was mentioned that the scaffolding could also be used to install solar. We stretched ourselves on found an additional £5k to install the 3.8kw array. As this was turned around very quickly to make use of exsisting scaffolding, we were limited to a 3.8kw install. This is because you need additional permissions from the district network operator for a larger system and we didn't' have the time. But there was only space for 2 more 380watt panels. The budget wouldn't stretch to a home battery at the time. The inverter will not work with a battery, so the plan is to save up and install a hybrid inverter and battery at the end of the inverters life (the inverter guarantee is 7 years). The more near term plan is to install a heat pump now that we have adequate insulation. More saving needed but hope the old boiler holds out to have the funds to install summer 2024. I have looked at infrared but think the amount of panels needed for the size of rooms with high ceilings, would work out very expensive when you factor in professional install from an electrician. We would still need another solution for hot water as well.
@@MikeHarEV that's interesting, good to know the context of your energy upgrades. I'm in the middle of a boiler repair/replacement and it's made me reconsider whether a standard gas boiler should be the solution for the next 1-2 decades.
I'm concluding that the answer is no. So it's all electric from here on for my house, with infrared panels likely the solution - or electric oil radiators as backup if needed. In the long term the ideal solution might be an air-to-air heat pump along with solar & battery. This should keep things relatively simple, as you'd minimise the inefficiencies of heating water, pumping the water, then heating the air with that water, etc. (with infrared you'd also heat things directly so skip heating air)
My thinking about hot water is that the advantages of a standard electric shower (and similar instant water heating devices for washing up if needed) outweigh its cost disadvantage. With it you avoid a cylinder's issues like extra space, noise, ventilation, heating water to unnecessarily high temperatures (in order to fight microbe growth) then remixing with the cold feed - as you only need about 25-30° C water in taps.
Yes - but predict the future price of electrons to see how much.
Theoretically there is an option out there to make money on charging and discharging your batteries. I am on EDF`s go35 tariff with 4.5p per Kwh 5 hours, I can export with a separate SEG contract to Scottish Power for 12p per Kwh, I am not convinced that is worth, adding to your charge/discharge cycles. It has changed the way I was charging the batteries and the car, now I charge to 100% during the night time and any production during the daytime will get exported.
Definitely invest in battery storage. For one thing, it acts as a buffer to smooth out load vs solar generation e.g. if the sun goes behind a cloud and the oven's on you don't start drawing from the grid. I think I've heard the payback on batteries is less than solar if you use a time of use tariff, in fact some people would argue it's better to invest in just batteries if you can't afford both.
Also, get as big a battery as you can afford if purchasing solar. I wish we'd bought double the size we did when it was VAT free so to make even more use of cheap rate electricity in the winter.
Depends, if you have an E-W roof you need less capacity than a South facing.
15 pence export to the grid is way better than 2 p export per unit. I’m missing out. Thanks EVM
In principle I would like solar but we’re not certain how long we’ll be staying in our current house. I recently signed up to Ripple Energy’s latest solar park project. Fingers crossed it will yield some results next year.
Useful video EVM. On IO, currently 7.5p per Kwh at night and shifting heavy usage to overnight the numbers look considerably different. I will run the numbers but at the moment the cost of solar doesn't seem worth the investment for me.
Yea solar definately doens't work out for everyone, when everything is considered
I guess you might not be aware but MCS is not the only way to gain the export licence. A Flex-Orb will get you an export tariff with British Gas who will pay 6p 50% more than Octopus. You do not need to switch to BG, You can remain with Octopus though I think that the moment BG are cheaper for gas
Even though I did a fare amount of research I was not aware about MCS until the installation started as my main consideration was using an NIC approved contractor as I have “Island non essential” and generator input outlet if ever needed and the most frustrating part was that I contacted Octopus Solar installation department who took 2 months to get back in touch with me by which time the installation was almost complete and they said they were unable to do “Essential” I would have to get a separate electrician, and my roof was not large enough to fit the required amount of panels, but when questioned it was because their chosen Solar panel supplier did not do the panels that were required.
I think this MCS Certification is an attempt at a closed shop and a lot of the installers are geared towards what they can do rather than what you might want to achieve. When I spoke to Octopus they said they speak to a lot of people who are not aware of the MCS requirement. It is not a big deal for me as I have no intention of supplying electricity at 4p when they want to charge me 45p. Worse than the Banks
I hope that in the future the grid will handle all of this. No need for home solar or batteries or time of day tarrifs. Its just too complicated for my little brain. But thanks EVM for trying to explain it all.
Yep, the export tariff is terrible, it would be far more cost effective to build industrial scale storage facilities and pay home generators a decent tariff than spending £billions on new nuclear power stations.
Simple rule of thumb, each kW installed delivers about 1000kWh per year.
Just checked. So far I've used 2MWh this year so far at a rate of 4.3p when solar and battery are taken in to account. So a save of 30p X 2,000 kWh = £600 saving January to April.
For me right now it's cheaper to export all my energy.
I charge batteries, car, run appliances, heat water at night for .08c per kW.
Then during the day I have full battery and export for .19c per kW.
But each to there own really.
Just had 6 panels crammed onto our Victorian mid terrace roof, and a givenergy battery (inspired by a previous video of yours) and really looking forward to getting some actual data on how effective they are. Sadly the givenergy dongle is refusing to connect to their cloud platform atm but fingers crossed it'll be up and running next week 🤞🏻
We are looking to do the same because of these videos....Do post to let us all know how it works for you.
@@ianbishop247 new WiFi dongle getting installed tomorrow, pester me if I don't update the thread 👍🏻
@@olninyoConsider this a polite pester!
@@TheTrueWelshIdiot 2 WiFi dongles and a 4g dongle in, still no connection. The theory now is it's the inverter itself that's the issue, givenergy themselves will either be coming out (in a few weeks) or I go with a different brand. It has not inspired much faith I'm afraid. But I do really want that octopus integration so I may forge on..
Sorry to not have better news.
@@TheTrueWelshIdiot @Ian Bishop
The whole system is working perfectly! it took givenergy and the installer 4 weeks to figure out it was a faulty inverter. Now it is glorious, the cherry on the nerd cake being I have integrated it into home assistant too with a fancy little power flow UI.
Good video ... and even if you are not in a forever house, but one you expect to live in for at least around 5+ years then solar panels are a no-brainer ... why? When you go to resell your house or rent it out you can ask a lot more because you are basically starting to futureproof your home ... I can see buyers wanting to pay a bit extra for a house that already has solar panels on it, especially if you've installed them in the past 4-5 years.
Though a small risk that a significantly better solar tech is launched in the near future?
@@aliasgharkhoyee9501Yeah, but you could hang about forever thinking that way. Just bite the bullet now.
@@CastleKnight7 you're right, it's just that the technology has only had incremental improvements in the last 10-20 years, which is causing the hesitation - we may well be on the threshold of new tech launching
@@aliasgharkhoyee9501 new tech is expensive and do you want to be an early adopter dealing with teethig issues? I highly recommend jumping on now, don't hesitate any more as you're potentially missing out on savings
Good video . More than a financial saving you are also saving the planet 🌎 if u can afford to buy solar it’s a no brainier . If u continue to pay the electricity company .. you never get your money back … so if u can afford it and the conditions are right get on with it 🌱🌎
I think we need an EV-AI to work out costs, savings, and payback times. 😄
With all the tariff changes and having 2 Solar arrays(one on a FIT the other just SEG), battery storage, EV, HP, and a share in Ripple Kirk Hill I would need a spreadsheet of impressive complexity to work out my cost/savings every year.
Luckily I view it as more of a hobby now than anything else so the fact that it's a hobby that's going to save me money is just a bonus.
Can be done on a spreadsheet not a problem
@@egold33311 The issue is working out where the power running the heat pump at any given time comes from.
Was it off peak at 7.5p was it peak at 40p? Was it power stored in the battery as that will have a different cost? Did it come from the solar, if it came from the solar or battery did using that power mean I had to import from the grid later in the day? They are lot's of variables.
I think you need to add the cost of borrowing (or opportunity cost of earning interest) in your sheet?
How much better timed could the cut in intelligent octopus prices have been?😁
Installed solar 12 years ago and we get paid roughly 70p for every kWh we generate
im on FiT and i get 20p kwh as i live alone i import nothing and i have E S & W facing panels so i can charge the car all day now . i have a powerwall . and try to use as much power as i can in the day , yesterday i put 30kwh in the car , but it was a nice day .
Can you please do - buying only batteries on a ToD tariff (intelligent octopus)
Presumably this was recorded before the IO price drop? Any chance of an updated version?
When I asked Octopus, they said that only Octopus Go wasn't compatible with Octopus Outgoing. Are you sure it's true that Octopus Intelligent isn't compatible with the 15p rate? They obviously do support filling of batteries and then re-exporting it, as that is what Flux is designed to do.
Having just come off Intelligent myself for the Sunmer, I can confirm you can only have the 4.1p seg rate for export
Have you considered adding a hip end to your house instead of a gable to get more solar? Or do you have loft conversion?
We need a new roof so are at the early stages of looking at in built solar panels, any advice gratefully received
Fit as many as you can afford.
Octopus 7Eco Import is 18p/kwH - so I charge the battery up overnight ALWAYS, then during the day I export at 15p/kWh. No need to think - charge the car up at night....if it is sunny I export at 15pm if it is not sunny I use the battery. No effort no planning costs 3p kwH....
Have a look at the Flux tariff, you might be better with that tariff…. I do exactly what you’re doing and I get paid on average 23p per kWh exported
@@robhoulden Thanks Robert, I calculated it through and I prefer the 7hrs as that keeps the battery at 100% o/n and if the next day has no sun I don't run out. I might be able to do better - but my method is totally stress free, I never take peak rate electricity, and the rest of the family are not impacted or compromised.
When analysing something like this you should always use the net present value method. In this case I would discount the future cashflows (savings) with the same rate as you would have to pay interest on the full investment, maybe even little higher since there is some further risks involved such as the future price of elecricity. One should also include degradation and maintanace costs. There are no gadgets that will work for 20 years without something failing.
Where I live the cost of electricity varies between 10-15 cents per kWh. During summer prices are between 0-5 cents. On top of that there is some transfer fee and taxes. At this point I consume most electricity for heating with a geothermal heat pump. Solar panels are covered in snow during winter. In my case solar panels would only start to be of interest if I had an EV.
A battery is for me out of the question. It would not last long with the heatpump running on 3 phase 16 amp fuses.
Merci beaucoup. No I don't have solar panels since my neighbors blocked my project. No help from our government, so I'm taking them on in a suit.
How could your neighbours block it? Are you in a conservation area?
What is your ev charger setup to get the most from your solar panels? Does the solar power go through your 7kw EV wall charger or do you use a standard 2.2 kw 3 pin plug setup to charge from solar energy?
The fit payment is running at 60p at the moment with another 12 years of inflation to go.
Hmm, so the capex divestment will take 10 years on average to break level. Meaning for the proceeding 10 years it should in theory become an asset. Question is, will energy prices stay this high particularly if electricity is removed from the gas spot prices, or once the Morocco power line is complete? Or once the 8 new nuclear reactors come online? Difficult one. We should also factor the increased house insurance cost as the panels constitute an elevated fire risk & reinstatement cost.
Great video - got to love the whiteboard of truth!
Now having a 8.2kWh Battery which majority of the days this covers our usage (97% off peak a month) our case for solar on top isn't as clear as I would like it to be, Ie the 3000kWh at 10p (now 7.5p) is more like £250-300 a year;
Is there any further way of justifying this to myself? Do you charge at night and leave some room for the solar replenishment?
Sometimes… but even with the SEG tariff from octopus I “lose” 3.4p a kWh that I export, and it costs 40p if I have to import at peak.
Getting that balance right can so easily result in wiping out any savings you make.
I have a similar setup to you and once you have a battery capable of powering your house for a day it makes solar panels too expensive. For example if you are generating 3000kWh a year at the night rate of 10p per kWh then your are only saving an extra 3000 x 10p = £300. solar system at £6,800/£300 = 22.66 years payback.
I find this helpful.... surely any system WITH a battery is clearly useful as you work in the day but consume at night. So it will take 10 to 15 years to pay for the installation alone. Whilst I totally support the idea of solar etc.
....I don't get the idea of staying in one property for 20+ years
It all depends on the size of your system- I probably have an average size (inc batteries) and has saved me £2.7K in one year on an initial outlay of £8.5K. Who knows where energy prices are going in the future but if they stay as they are the repayment at that rate is 4 years.
@@andrewl9020 You are claming that you are getting over 31% return on your initial investment, care to share some of your usage statistics of say how many kWh you used to pay for and how many you pay for now? The average ROI is usually less than 15% often much less.
It isn't worth bothering with if it takes 10 years to pay back, assuming you get 25 years out of the panels (for arguments sake).
10 year payback @ £10k initial investment and £1000 per year saving, at year 10 you have 15 years left of ‘free’ solar so £15k, you then scrap the panels so your initial investment has returned £15k over 25 years or 1.635% after paying for itself.
@@egold33311 Great response with the maths to back it up..... pathetic return on your money.
6000 generated, 20% exported at 4p= 1200x0.04=£48 then 4800 x 40p=£1,920 Total £1,948. The other savings granted are a result of having an EV and being on an overnight rate of 7p for 4 hours, but if I did not have batteries then I could not take advantage of this. By using the Octo-Aid app it has been showing a monthly saving of between £120-£140 each month (75-80% off peak) since I switched to overnight charging 6 months ago, so 6 x £120 = £720. So £1,948 + £720 = £2,668
Seems like it should be THERMAL panels outer layer, on sky scrapers and cars...Other side would be l.e.d...The led's can light up from the heat, powering solar panels beneath them.
Any chance you can share the details of the installers you consulted for this?
Individual homeowners have no negotiating power with power companies or hardware resellers. Renters and most home unit owners generally cannot install solar panels. A better solution is a subscription model for optimally positioned wind and solar farms.
What about the new octopus flux tarriff, pays much higher for export, I am going to move from intelligence this week and give it a try during the summer when I have more excess from m panels
Since we got solar and a battery in the middle of june last year we generated 3448kwh of which we exported 795kwh. I would like a solar divert immersion heater but we have a combi boiler so a bit stuck on that one
Here in Slovakia the plumbers just drop in an immersion tank with solar diverter inline before the combo boiler and it works great. Even if the water is not up to temp as in winter with less solar, it just feeds the boiler with warmer water than the cold, and saves gas. For 9 months a year it gets to 60C anyway. You can get solar diverters for around £280 that wire into the consumer unit / fuse box - ours is a Greenbono unit.
Hi, no water tank, look at electric heater, single room air to air, storage heater etc. Either manually switch on or via a diverter.
Hi, no water tank, look at electric heater, single room air to air, storage heater etc. Either manually switch on or via a diverter.
Solar panels can definitely save you money in the long run.
I've got an 40 kWh EV (eNV200), a 'dumb' domestic charge point, solar panels, 14kWh of batteries and I'm on the original feed in tariff and Octopus Go. What I could really do with is a control system. Am I right in thinking that a smart charge point like a zappi would do that?
I don’t think anyone will ever have zero export unless they are storing in a home or car battery; peak solar production is often at times when usage of power is low. Solar plus some battery capacity is a good plan
Although batteries degrade fairly quickly and would need to be replaced, ( someone pointed out in their comment here).
Prices are going up. But the cost of manufacturing Solar PV panels has halved in the past few months. Someone's making huge profits.
So if you dont have the money to pay for the install you will need a loan or if you have the cash you can get nearly 4% interest a year. If you dont spend enough time at home using the electricity or have an EV as well not a great deal.
If people won the lottery I think it would be worth starting with strong insulation and similar energy saving measures first.
Then a large battery, air-to-air heat pump, solar panels, get rid of gas entirely, and eventually replacing your oil-based car with electric cargo bikes - or if really needed, an electric car.
No brainier indeed. Solar for the win!!!!!
Here's the thing. I can only afford one. Irrespective of cost is it better for environment if I have solar panels installed ( current mains gas heating) or get an ev car?
November 2022 installed 12 panels and 9.5 kWh give energy battery for £13k….with a caveat. £10k was a home energy Scotland interest free loan for 10 years…no brainier as the the value of loan is eaten up due to high inflation so the government is losing out and I am gaining from that. The money saved on energy will just go towards paying the loan which works out at about £70 per month. I paid £12 in electric for April 2023…and it’s been the worst weather for solar for many years so we haven’t done too badly
Let me add though, for anyone navigating home energy Scotland loans for renewables….it’s an absolute nightmare . You’ll be made jump through so many hops for Liam to approve because the process is a shambles. After 6 months of emails and angry phone calls loan was approved
Great video thanks. I have a question though. If you could only afford solar or a battery, are you not better off getting a battery (assuming you're on a time-of-use tariff)? If you can charge a battery every night on cheap rate, charge your EV too, then you should only ever pay cheap rate for your domestic and EV electricity. This will work year round too. The problem with this would be that then solar is less appealing as self generated elec only saves you cheap rate costs.
Can you look at the costs (and savings) of batteries?
IMO, if you can only afford either /or….get batteries and get on a EV time of use tariff.
@@chriss4949 Yep, that's my thinking too. Payback time for solar depends on how much each generated kWh is saving you. If you can use a battery to effectively run your home from off peak electricity, then solar is a less compelling option.
I already have EVs and solar panels (thanks to the previous owner) and am now looking to get a battery. If I had neither though, I think I'd be going for a battery... until V2H/V2G is available anyway! 😀
@@matt7997 one thing I discovered today is battery only you pay VAT. If you buy solar, that, and the battery is exempt. So from just wanting a battery for reasons you mention, now considering going the whole hog.
@@chrismower5173 Oh that's interesting. So if I'm looking at adding a battery, maybe I want to add a couple of panels to my existing array at the same time? If adding two panels (assuming it's that simple) will save me 20% on a battery, it feels like that would pay for itself and overall be cheaper than me just adding a battery. Time for a spreadsheet! 😀
Still debating whether to spend £6k on solar or battery first. Or borrow more to get both…
You save 20% VAT on the battery when bought with Solar so I'd do both if that's the ultimate plan. Could save into 4 figures.
May i ask have you seen the state of first4solar at the moment.
I did as you said and now like many cant get my promised deposit, great cant get MCS now.
Probably be ignored as i have been before
I think that the Flux tariff changes your argument for people with a good battery and an EV. You do need both the import and export rates to give the true balance.
Shame we’re not using PV-T (or it’s not accredited). The Abora panel is upto 89% efficient