I have a REL Strata in front and a Q150E in the back. My room is 50 square meters, 5.5x9 m roughly. The room has a concrete granite chipped ceiling/roof. The roof is supported by a concrete beam, about a third to the rear. It doesn't matter what speakers and sub I have in the front, 30Hz is missing in my listening chair. Then I experimented with a second REL in the rear right corner and that put 30Hz back in my listening chair. So, I can listen to pipe organ music that put the pipes in my room like in a real live performance. My main speakers are 2x ESS AMT 1D's, fed by Audioqusrt Midnight 3 cable, powered by a Valve Audio "Black Widow" hybrid tube amp and a Sonic Frontiers SFL1 Pre-amp. The music is REAL.!!!
Got two subs one next to my front speakers 2 feet off the ground and the second placed 3 feet to my right on the floor under a lamb table. When I got that second sub next to me, the room transformed into a power house. The best way I can describe is you feel it more then hear it. "But", that's not to say if I could treat my room I would but I can't due to "W" factor if you catch my drift. "But" that second Sub definitely made a huge, huge, difference. Best bang for the buck compared to the price and look of room treatment, and by the way it's a lower end sub model, but truthfully compared to my high end, I really can't hear/feel the difference. 🖖
I basically have an F12 Rythmik each side of my listening chair--one pointed straight toward chair and the other pointed at a diagonal and firing in toward the room. Works well in my 12X10 room.
My B&O Harmony TV set has a build-in subwoofer. How does the characteristics and the dynamics of the bass change if I decide to move the TV-set closer or further away from the wall? It's placed parallel to the wall.
Great question, and one that I am glad I researched and played with about 5 years ago when I was designing my current home theater that is very small, ~14'L x 11'W x 6'-7"H. While the room is heavily acoustically treated due to it being so small and having full 11.1 Atmos setup, low frequency modes were still going to be a huge problem. I was racking my head trying to figure out how to put in a 4 sub setup in the middle of all 4 walls but that just wasn't going to be practical, not to mention expensive. So then I was getting into near field for stereo and I started thinking about this and playing with near field sub in my living room and sure enough in near field many of the subwoofer modes went away or could be tamed. So in my small space, I did have space behind my back wall in the center where I mounted all my equipment, projector etc in a rack, so I decided to put my subwoofer SVS PB-16 Ultra right in the middle in the wall where the wall now was a big baffle that is about 18" from the two seats. Works incredibly well. Only issue is that it does sometimes draw attention to itself as it sometimes acts as a fan due to how much air it moves out of those 3 big ports during big bass scenes.
At my desk I have Sony SSCS5 speakers and an Acoustic Audio PSW8 (down firing sub) under my desk, center back wall position. Down firing was a grand improvement. My receiver speaker out goes to low line in on the sub, then to the speakers with crossover set at 60Hz. I run through a Topping E30 to my Kenwood KR-V95R stereo receiver I got in 1986 (great spec class ab). This is a small down firing sub that replaced a larger Polk front firing that was 10" and the PSW8 is much more encompassing in this nearfield setup. Love your videos!
I just purchased an Acoustic Audio sub for a small listening room and have listened to your different explanations about sub placement. Will be playing hop scotch today to see where it sounds best. Thanks, Paul!
One issue that most powered subwoofer users get confuse with is the use of a Y connector. Some manufacturers advise using them to boost signals, others advise against it as it will boost response by 6dB and creates overload all round and distortion and better to use only the left RCA input and volume control on the sub instead. As usual, I use my ears and common sense. I use the Left RCA input, low pass and volume controls.
ineteresting your experience. a lot of situations, places, the kind of music and a lot of factors related to our audios. even in my own house it is complex, and it is easy too ! in my office I had a mini system Kenwood HM-331, a bookshelf component. I tested to plug an "active" Sony subwoofer, the sound was very good and better audio ambience. the place where I'm in my desk, the subwoofer and the other places I tested to listen, a wide difference too. Really I don't know about L or R inputs/outputs.
@@georgemartinezza Some subs have right amd left inputs and outputs and a stack of speaker level inputs and outputs (Line outputs and inputs) Phase controls, low pass crossover, trigger jack input, auto on and off, Some have even more connections. They cost a fortune to buy , mostly made in China, and when they break after say 10 years, there are no parts and cannot be fixed. Just to make life easier I guess. Buy vintage Made in USA.
Hello, are nearfield subwoofers a special type? Or does simply placing any subwoofer really close improve the sound just like how nearfield speakers improve the sound?
You may not have a sub, no guarantee you will not hear the low bass from where they are placed 😉 if you do use subs, multiple low end sources distributed across the room, evens out the bass response (helps fight peaks and nulls).
I have 3 MJ Acoustics Kensingtons. Had them against the front wall with the middle unit raised 2 feet. Recently put it to left of my listening chair within arms reach. My room never had better sounding, feeling or integrated bass. I will be positioning another to my right. The 3rd probably will no longer be needed. I say if it is at all possible nearfield stomps everything including bass correction!
Today I simple move my sub next to the listening position, and calibrate REW EQ again, everything become much clearer, and sub doesn't sound that aggressive as well, I think sub can play with lower volume when close to you, and it doesn't mix/cover the high freq sound.
Nonsense - For vibration special devices for that use case exists which vibrate below 40 Hz while the subwoofer skips anything in that range when proper configured - one out-of-the-box solution is called iBeam and cinema seats are prepared for that
it depends, some people find that useful and nice. each place, room or bedroom is a different story and setup / audio experience. it can be easy or complex, right now between my office or my bedroom the audio -..... I got to study the case!
@@Harald_Reindl I think you're missing his point. It's not to shake the seat like an I-beam. It's to hide a nearfield subwoofer lol. I'm sure you know how long bass frequencies are, so you should also know how a couch cushion is basically free air to anything below ~200hz. I also disagree that a sub should only be playing below 40hz. Proper placement and integration is key. But I would be willing to be that if you set up your system to take advantage of it, you could easily take some strain off of your mains and cross your sub up into the +80hz range with no issues. We use that all the time in car audio and end up with the illusion of "invisible" and "upfront" bass.
@@picassoimpaler3243 you don't understand! Nowhere did I say a sub should only play below 40 hz - it should for the sake of god stop tgerr because vibration belongs to the iBeam! Come back after you have the parts of the topic in your living room
Need a wireless subwoofer then because of cabling all over the room Do I drill a hole in the floor and run the wiring under it. This has also always been my bout with a surround sound setup. The satellites.
I have my Kanto Sub8 underneath my desk. To lessen my rumble, I've stuffed pillows, since I have tubes. I used pillows and 24"x24" pink foam from Home Depot to surround the sub. It's truly reduced the vibrations from my desk top.
@@davewin1792 a good AVR corrects frequency response and timings for each speaker including the subwoofer, you have a microphone which you place at the listening position, start room measurement and move your ass out of the room while it's running
@@davewin1792 every random AVR around 500 dollars in 2022 comes with a microphone for room correction which includes correction of delays between speakers
I spent a full day trying to. ove my sub... the best results (listening and based on the new ARC Genesis from Anthem)... was the las place where I would thing to place it!!!! my next step should be to sell this 3000 watts sub and buy 2 to balance my set-up....
Then what good is your a spin speakers if they go that low then why do you need a subwoofer. I got a pair o fisher soundstage 9455 tower speakers in an open room setup they have 15 inch woofers, 8 inch midrange and a 4 x 10 horn. They deliver enough bass to fill the room and you can feel it on your chest.
I've asked this same question on a couple different video's of yours. No luck on a response yet. (I know your a busy man) Stereo sub's cannot image (you call it directional musical cues) if say I follow your advise and put the sub's near the rear of my listening room effectively eliminating any (near main speakers) musical cues. Is there no requirement of (stereo) sub placement in a near proximity to the main speakers. Clearly stereo sub's (in the back of room) cannot produce those (directional musical cue's) And you also only placed 1 sub at the rear of the room. Hight level input? summed mono? Analog RCA or balanced XLR? This video appears to conflict with you stereo sub video. Please explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old. I'm very confused. Thank you in advance for your time.
Yaaa NO! Don't do this especially if you are trying to attain some kind of "soundscape" There's this huge misconception that low frequencies are non-directional and this isn't true. Listen to any orchestral music with a standard orchestral setup and you'll distinctly hear the double basses coming from your right. More importantly regardless of the source, whether it's the lowest notes on a grand piano (27.5 Hz) or a tuba (29 to 32 Hz) these notes contain harmonics in higher frequency ranges that are not reproduced by the subwoofer. This of course creates phase issues and distortions as the fundamental comes from the subwoofer but the other harmonics come from drivers located in other positions. Everything from cross-over frequencies to subwoofer placement in a room should be done only after appropriate testing of room acoustics, and addressing of room anomalies is done first, with further testing of subwoofer placement to ensure appropriate timing, as well as signal strength, is achieved.
i kinda dont agree, with a sub dont do anything next to towers! as you said its about, what the room is like! and the sweet spot, in my or another room. could be next to, the towers! again its more up to the room! i use a svs pb-1000pro for front sub, and a dali suite 1.2 sub as a nearfield sub... and i onyl hear my pb-1000, and only feel the dali sub!
Tried and tested, in my place best location is right beside me... loving the seamless blend.
I have a REL Strata in front and a Q150E in the back. My room is 50 square meters, 5.5x9 m roughly. The room has a concrete granite chipped ceiling/roof. The roof is supported by a concrete beam, about a third to the rear. It doesn't matter what speakers and sub I have in the front, 30Hz is missing in my listening chair. Then I experimented with a second REL in the rear right corner and that put 30Hz back in my listening chair. So, I can listen to pipe organ music that put the pipes in my room like in a real live performance. My main speakers are 2x ESS AMT 1D's, fed by Audioqusrt Midnight 3 cable, powered by a Valve Audio "Black Widow" hybrid tube amp and a Sonic Frontiers SFL1 Pre-amp. The music is REAL.!!!
Thank you so much for your insights.
Got two subs one next to my front speakers 2 feet off the ground and the second placed 3 feet to my right on the floor under a lamb table. When I got that second sub next to me, the room transformed into a power house. The best way I can describe is you feel it more then hear it. "But", that's not to say if I could treat my room I would but I can't due to "W" factor if you catch my drift. "But" that second Sub definitely made a huge, huge, difference. Best bang for the buck compared to the price and look of room treatment, and by the way it's a lower end sub model, but truthfully compared to my high end, I really can't hear/feel the difference. 🖖
You can't do effective room treatment in this frequency range amyway.
Your drift was cought,
I basically have an F12 Rythmik each side of my listening chair--one pointed straight toward chair and the other pointed at a diagonal and firing in toward the room. Works well in my 12X10 room.
Any thoughts or empiricism on Nelson Pass's slot loaded dipole configuration for Bass?
My B&O Harmony TV set has a build-in subwoofer. How does the characteristics and the dynamics of the bass change if I decide to move the TV-set closer or further away from the wall? It's placed parallel to the wall.
Great question, and one that I am glad I researched and played with about 5 years ago when I was designing my current home theater that is very small, ~14'L x 11'W x 6'-7"H. While the room is heavily acoustically treated due to it being so small and having full 11.1 Atmos setup, low frequency modes were still going to be a huge problem. I was racking my head trying to figure out how to put in a 4 sub setup in the middle of all 4 walls but that just wasn't going to be practical, not to mention expensive. So then I was getting into near field for stereo and I started thinking about this and playing with near field sub in my living room and sure enough in near field many of the subwoofer modes went away or could be tamed. So in my small space, I did have space behind my back wall in the center where I mounted all my equipment, projector etc in a rack, so I decided to put my subwoofer SVS PB-16 Ultra right in the middle in the wall where the wall now was a big baffle that is about 18" from the two seats. Works incredibly well. Only issue is that it does sometimes draw attention to itself as it sometimes acts as a fan due to how much air it moves out of those 3 big ports during big bass scenes.
(00),
each place, room or bedroom is a different story and setup / audio experience. yes.
Lotta Sprouts on that table. Love my Sprout100.
At my desk I have Sony SSCS5 speakers and an Acoustic Audio PSW8 (down firing sub) under my desk, center back wall position. Down firing was a grand improvement. My receiver speaker out goes to low line in on the sub, then to the speakers with crossover set at 60Hz. I run through a Topping E30 to my Kenwood KR-V95R stereo receiver I got in 1986 (great spec class ab). This is a small down firing sub that replaced a larger Polk front firing that was 10" and the PSW8 is much more encompassing in this nearfield setup. Love your videos!
Thanks Sir for the info
Looking to do a inwall subwoofer behind the couch. Is that considered near field?
I just purchased an Acoustic Audio sub for a small listening room and have listened to your different explanations about sub placement. Will be playing hop scotch today to see where it sounds best. Thanks, Paul!
Anything to make the THX roll, more intense.
One issue that most powered subwoofer users get confuse with is the use of a Y connector. Some manufacturers advise using them to boost signals, others advise against it as it will boost response by 6dB and creates overload all round and distortion and better to use only the left RCA input and volume control on the sub instead. As usual, I use my ears and common sense. I use the Left RCA input, low pass and volume controls.
ineteresting your experience.
a lot of situations, places, the kind of music and a lot of factors related to our audios. even in my own house it is complex, and it is easy too !
in my office I had a mini system Kenwood HM-331, a bookshelf component. I tested to plug an "active" Sony subwoofer, the sound was very good and better audio ambience. the place where I'm in my desk, the subwoofer and the other places I tested to listen, a wide difference too. Really I don't know about L or R inputs/outputs.
@@georgemartinezza Some subs have right amd left inputs and outputs and a stack of speaker level inputs and outputs (Line outputs and inputs) Phase controls, low pass crossover, trigger jack input, auto on and off, Some have even more connections. They cost a fortune to buy , mostly made in China, and when they break after say 10 years, there are no parts and cannot be fixed. Just to make life easier I guess. Buy vintage Made in USA.
A very Happy Christmas to you, Paul, your family, and all at PS Audio, from Oxford, UK.
Hello, are nearfield subwoofers a special type? Or does simply placing any subwoofer really close improve the sound just like how nearfield speakers improve the sound?
I own two REL S812’s. Can they be used as nearfield subs?
Absolutely.
If the bass from the Aspens can't be heard so well from their typical position, what is the rationale for them going that low?
You may not have a sub, no guarantee you will not hear the low bass from where they are placed 😉 if you do use subs, multiple low end sources distributed across the room, evens out the bass response (helps fight peaks and nulls).
I have 3 MJ Acoustics Kensingtons. Had them against the front wall with the middle unit raised 2 feet. Recently put it to left of my listening chair within arms reach. My room never had better sounding, feeling or integrated bass. I will be positioning another to my right. The 3rd probably will no longer be needed. I say if it is at all possible nearfield stomps everything including bass correction!
Today I simple move my sub next to the listening position, and calibrate REW EQ again, everything become much clearer, and sub doesn't sound that aggressive as well,
I think sub can play with lower volume when close to you, and it doesn't mix/cover the high freq sound.
You could bury the sub or subs in the couch majority of couches are hollow frames just cut the material on the bottom place the sub in
Nonsense - For vibration special devices for that use case exists which vibrate below 40 Hz while the subwoofer skips anything in that range when proper configured - one out-of-the-box solution is called iBeam and cinema seats are prepared for that
it depends, some people find that useful and nice.
each place, room or bedroom is a different story and setup / audio experience. it can be easy or complex, right now between my office or my bedroom the audio -.....
I got to study the case!
@@Harald_Reindl I think you're missing his point. It's not to shake the seat like an I-beam. It's to hide a nearfield subwoofer lol.
I'm sure you know how long bass frequencies are, so you should also know how a couch cushion is basically free air to anything below ~200hz.
I also disagree that a sub should only be playing below 40hz. Proper placement and integration is key. But I would be willing to be that if you set up your system to take advantage of it, you could easily take some strain off of your mains and cross your sub up into the +80hz range with no issues. We use that all the time in car audio and end up with the illusion of "invisible" and "upfront" bass.
@@picassoimpaler3243 you don't understand! Nowhere did I say a sub should only play below 40 hz - it should for the sake of god stop tgerr because vibration belongs to the iBeam! Come back after you have the parts of the topic in your living room
@@picassoimpaler3243 and when you think you can burry a random subwoofer inside the couch with no negative impact you are an inexperienced naive fool
Directly vibrate the chair. Far more efficient and bone conduction is what we use at those frequencies anyways.
I really like listening in Nearfield for anything. Maybe its the recording studio world thats just ruined me though
Need a wireless subwoofer then because of cabling all over the room Do I drill a hole in the floor and run the wiring under it. This has also always been my bout with a surround sound setup. The satellites.
You could pull out the baseboards and run the cable through the wall. I use in-ceiling speakers for surrounds, works very well
@@Pete.across.the.street All walls ceilings and floors are concrete. I could drill some holes to the crawl space...
Ruffles my ear drums 👂🥁
I have my Kanto Sub8 underneath my desk. To lessen my rumble, I've stuffed pillows, since I have tubes. I used pillows and 24"x24" pink foam from Home Depot to surround the sub. It's truly reduced the vibrations from my desk top.
Paul, how important is it to have the subs arrival time be identical to the main speakers i.e inline with the bass drivers of the main speakers. TY
Important and hence good systems correct the timing based on microphone measurement
@@Harald_Reindl Harald could you elaborate please for the end user.
@@davewin1792 a good AVR corrects frequency response and timings for each speaker including the subwoofer, you have a microphone which you place at the listening position, start room measurement and move your ass out of the room while it's running
@@Harald_Reindl Thank you. I'm not familiar with this, is it cheap :)
@@davewin1792 every random AVR around 500 dollars in 2022 comes with a microphone for room correction which includes correction of delays between speakers
Coffee table sub?
What's wrong with an SUV sub?
Wonder if your Darren Myers has heard about Dave Rat, and his motorized concert super-subs?
The rooms were fine until Audiophiles moved in😉
Lot of truth there.
@@morbidmanmusic yup, never used a sub, ever
No I don’t need a $6,000.00 DAC for my $20.00 Bluetooth speaker..😳🙄
@@davidfromamerica1871 Your $20 Bluetooth speaker already has a $0.50 DAC in it and it's a perfect fit.
@@davidfromamerica1871 Correct. You need a $200,000 DAC. Sell your home.
*ROFL* just thougt you had a good coffee - then io realised i have speed at 1.25 on CZcams :-)
Been there, done that! At the music at the end you hear the difference
I spent a full day trying to. ove my sub... the best results (listening and based on the new ARC Genesis from Anthem)... was the las place where I would thing to place it!!!! my next step should be to sell this 3000 watts sub and buy 2 to balance my set-up....
Then what good is your a spin speakers if they go that low then why do you need a subwoofer. I got a pair o fisher soundstage 9455 tower speakers in an open room setup they have 15 inch woofers, 8 inch midrange and a 4 x 10 horn. They deliver enough bass to fill the room and you can feel it on your chest.
Coming from a car audio background I can say subs can seem to be louder when up close but I can't say that they sound better, prob the opposite.
I've asked this same question on a couple different video's of yours. No luck on a response yet. (I know your a busy man) Stereo sub's cannot image (you call it directional musical cues) if say I follow your advise and put the sub's near the rear of my listening room effectively eliminating any (near main speakers) musical cues. Is there no requirement of (stereo) sub placement in a near proximity to the main speakers. Clearly stereo sub's (in the back of room) cannot produce those (directional musical cue's) And you also only placed 1 sub at the rear of the room. Hight level input? summed mono? Analog RCA or balanced XLR? This video appears to conflict with you stereo sub video. Please explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old. I'm very confused. Thank you in advance for your time.
My sub is right next to one of the front speakers. And that is where it plays the best. So this was not quite right..
Paper....
Scissor - I won! 😁
Yaaa NO!
Don't do this especially if you are trying to attain some kind of "soundscape"
There's this huge misconception that low frequencies are non-directional and this isn't true.
Listen to any orchestral music with a standard orchestral setup and you'll distinctly hear the double basses coming from your right.
More importantly regardless of the source, whether it's the lowest notes on a grand piano (27.5 Hz) or a tuba (29 to 32 Hz) these notes contain harmonics in higher frequency ranges that are not reproduced by the subwoofer.
This of course creates phase issues and distortions as the fundamental comes from the subwoofer but the other harmonics come from drivers located in other positions.
Everything from cross-over frequencies to subwoofer placement in a room should be done only after appropriate testing of room acoustics, and addressing of room anomalies is done first, with further testing of subwoofer placement to ensure appropriate timing, as well as signal strength, is achieved.
All these people with expensive toys they can afford. Are all you people lawyers and politicians 😳
What about the ones that have absolutely no concern of affordability and simply choose to get Uber expensive toys of what they prefer when they prefer
i kinda dont agree, with a sub dont do anything next to towers! as you said its about, what the room is like! and the sweet spot, in my or another room. could be next to, the towers! again its more up to the room! i use a svs pb-1000pro for front sub, and a dali suite 1.2 sub as a nearfield sub... and i onyl hear my pb-1000, and only feel the dali sub!
Spouce is the biggest problem not the room.
Divorce will take care of that. Plenty of others out there, You can always do better.