Naval Logistics - Keeping your fleet in fuel, food and guns
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
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Today we take a look at the logistics of keeping your navy combat capable.
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Just wanted to say: "you know it's going to be a good day when you find an hour-long Drach video in your recommendations!"
drach, what happend to the USS Franklin video?
The image at time stamp 4:58 appears to be building 128 in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. This used to be a machine shop for making marine engine components. I am happy to say that this has been fully restored and is now being used for the manufacturer of clothing, helmets, and body armor for special forces. It would be great if you could dig into the history of the BNY for a future episode.
7:11 during the age of sail, did the crown or Royal Navy have managers of the forest?
27:57 dont forget about canals .. the rail ways slower but higher capacity older brother
“If you’re going to listen to 8-10-12 hours plus of narration, you want to make sure you enjoy the person who’s speaking to you.“ That’s why we’re here Drach!
I checked the video time hoping it was 8hrs lol. Ever heard of dan carlin hardcore history? His stuff is 6 hrs and longer its crazy
@Darthdoodoo his series about the how and why japan became the way it did was fantastic. i think it was called "supernova in the orient "
@Darthdoodoo I tried some Hardcore History but it is quite a time investment and I struggled with him jumping around and felt it needed to be better organized.
"Spare parts"
*shows a picture of an officer being hoisted between ships*
It was subtle but I loved it.
I thought it was hilarious 🤣🤣
Ah, the breeches buoy! We had to practice with that to verify that we knew *how* to do it (but almost never used it in practice - helicopters were quicker, easier, and safer), and to do so loaded our chaplain - a full commander :-) - into it and proceeded to haul him over to the other ship. On the way back the guys tending the line just *couldn't* keep it taut and he got dunked ever so gently into the briny. He returned to our deck sputtering like a wet hen. And everyone felt just *awful*! :-)
Given how "useful" most officers are, "walking organ donors" fits.
I've seen it done. 1977, but our ship didn't have a helo.
@@dropdead234 As Abraham Lincoln is alleged to have said, "I can easily make more Generals, Mules cost money!"
I’m a retired naval supply corps officer. Thanks for the video. My favorite logistics quote is from centuries ago but still holds true today.
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” - Alexander the Great.
@Baby Maybe Actually I served on a Frigate, a submarine and a carrier so I can throw the black shoe, brown shoe or bubble head call sign depending on the situation. 👍
Baby Maybe me: FFG43, SSN680, CV64, and LCC19 (the second ugliest ship in the Navy after LCC20 lol)
Naval logistics. Put another way:
Water, water everywhere.
And not a drop to drink.
Not if you're the Swiss Navy.
Kinda salty
That's what not to do when the bird shits on you - THE RIME OF THE ANCIENT MARINER!
"Doch wär für uns das Wasser zum trinken gedacht
Hätte Gott den Ozean nicht salzig gemacht" - "Blau wie das Meer" from Mr. Hurley & Die Pulveraffen
We just need to modify our kidneys with cells from a cats kidney apperently cats can drink saltwater without any problem
"Why is the Rum always gone?"
Drach: "Well... Let me tell you all about logistics."
@Jo Daniel what has that got to do with pirates of the Carribbean?
Oh, is that why it's called the Wednesday Rum ration
@@sergarlantyrell7847 Very clever. Hip, hip…
"The amateurs discuss tactics: the professionals discuss logistics."
-Napoleon
@@francescomiele6601 I know, right?
Had to invent the infographic just to show how badly it went down.
Edit: fact-checked myself; Charles Joseph Minard was far from the first author of an infographic, and the history of the medium is great: www.smithsonianmag.com/history/surprising-history-infographic-180959563/
Ahhh, the roboute guilliman speciality
Currently doing a degree in military history
This phrase is one that gets thrown around a LOT.
Nothing worst than being unprepared or runing out of ammo lol
Usually expressed as: “An army marches on its belly.”
“Une armée marche avec son estomac.” N
Ah yes. Logistics. Boring, a huge hassle, and, literally, *what wins wars*
Wars also tend to be mostly boring (punctuated with extreme violence and sheer terror) and a huge hassle for all involved ;)
I think the best example of this is the Berlin airlift. Nearly 300.000 flight delivered 2.3 million tons of food, fuel and supplies in 11 months. It was a big blow to the soviet union and most likely prevented the West from having to start a war against to east to free Berlin.
70% of any army is logistics. Probably more for a Navy since it has 0% chance of foraging.
Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
An army marches on its stomach. ~ Napoleon.
My soldiers can eat grass if they have to, but my tanks gotta have gas. ~ George Patton.
My soldiers can walk to the front and fight. Why can't you start a western front? ~ Stalin.
Western allies: Err....sea, ships, logistics.
Forrest nerd here; a very long, straight and well grown tree is quite difficult all in itself. Becuase nature tend not to keep straight lines all that well. Things like long bows on a tree is a very real thing - and you may need a very keen eye to even spot it before the thing is on the ground and somewhat prepared. Moreover, a good mast need to have grown even thru a century and a half. You cannot have things like a trunk that has grown more on on one side, have dry knots, have been damaged (on a storm, for example - trees can splinter internally while keep on growing and looking healthy. Such a tree is useless as a mast. Today they become made into paper or heat) etcetera. The longer the mast you want, the more difficult will it be to find such a tree. And that is when the tree is in the forrest. Getting a whole tree out of that forrest, down to the coast and on a boat to another country - undamaged - is only increasing how complex an operation it is.
I had no idea how complicated this was... thanks for the fun facts Erik!
I've read that growing masts was quite the process. Pick out a likely candidate then cut down other trees around it to strengthen the trunk by exposing it to more wind.
I've read that foresters would use 'braces'. Devices that would force the tree to branch/grow into specific shapes.
Ostensibly, this gave the wood a natural-shape and a natural-strength when it was harvested.
Even though upper masts were generally pieced, it still took good wood. And the lower masts took some damned big trees in Ships O' th' Line.
Now I want a video on choosing masts for age of sail ships!
For all that the supercarriers and mega-submarines get the glory, it's the *gigantic* logistics capability that makes the USN the titan it is. Looking at the supply chains and the sheer volume of everything they move, it's outright mind boggling.
Very much so. Large and very capable logistics is also the reason that there are only two navies in the world that are genuinely capable of operating anywhere.
The ability to do that is also the main reason why the UK were able to defeat Argentine in the Falklands war.
@@DarkFire515 French navy can do it too...
The Armed Forces Canada maintains fleet resupply capability for world wide reach. NATO, in its anti-piracy mission, is dependent on replenishment at sea. The US Navy calls it Underway Replenishment (or UNREP).
I know from personal experience that even replenishment of food from the quayside is an arduous task. It can take an long afternoon to resupply a ship of 150 sailors, or several days for a aircraft carrier. Resupply at sea in the 1940's required going along side three ships for the various parts of the logistical train. Oil came from the AO ship, explosives from the AE ship and food and spare parts from the AK ship. Every one is praying to Daniel Bernoulli that the ships are not sucked together.
@@steveschulte8696 With RAS or UNREP the main advantage is, that all that stuff comes pre packaged. If you are in peacetime ops and replenish every week, a frigate with 250 sailors needs ~5 tonnes of foodstuffs. A modern aircraft carrier with nearly 5000 sailors needs ~100 tonnes of food in 7 days.
1:15 Drach - "Lets have a quick look at the logistical supply chain..."
Checks run time and sees almost 57 minutes. Sweet!
Can't wait for a detailed look at the logistical supply chain!
@@Highwind79 It's a book 3 inches thick. That's vol. 1.
@@deathsheadknight2137 And VOL1 is mostly made of "Tables of contents"
In the long view of logistics, that pretty much is a quick summary. I sometimes wonders if logistics officers were prescient about strategy and tactics, so they could start moving the supplies before the commanders asked for it ASAP.
Hour long “quick looks”, 5 minute guides actually being closer to 20... makes me wonder how a “quick” chat over “one” beer would go with Sir Drach 😉😎
Fuel? We don’t need fuel! Emperor Hirohito will supply us with sheer will!
I'm sure that went soo well for the Japanese
If we believe hard enough, shells will start shooting out of our guns!
-wait, this isn't 40k-
@@Big_E_Soul_Fragment Too orkish for IJN, IMO.
@@theleva7 Idk, maybe just a touch too much. They did build the Yamatos, planned bigger ones and flew themselves in to ships, after all.
Or just pour crude oil
Don’t laugh folks. I worked on a project about standardizing packaging. We had to consider the size of the shipping pallets, size of the packaged components, weights, etc. to come up with a way of maximizing the amount of cargo that could be shipped using the least expensive packaging (read wasteful for expensive). It was an amazingly complex project, especially considering the tech we had - a Compaq 80286 luggable running DOS 3.3 and DBase 4. We had to measure thousands of components because that was just as CAD software and computerized record keeping were becoming common.
Edited to add - always a great start to a day when a new Drach video surfaces. Damn, but do you do a great job of making everything associated with Naval warfare interesting. I didn’t even notice how long the video was. Until a dog told me I needed to get up and take her for a walk...
God yes... a 286 at a screaming 16Mhz and a green screen CRT. Running Windows '67 with less memory than Ronald Reagan.
@@darrellsmith4204 Don't you mean less memory than Biden?
Otherwise, no shit. And DB4. Gads, what headaches. Still, I remember freezing outside a computer store at 5 AM because there was a shipment of 56.6 modems arriving that day and they would be sold first come, first served. People today do not understand the thrill of hearing your modem actually connect.
Wayne,
Oh you poor bastard!
I was a company quartermaster and had to get that stuff to the forward pits. I believe the correct reply is oh you poor bastard 😜
Cheers Bro’
Mark
@@whiskeytangosierra6 Either/or.. And try to explain to kids these days about 14.4 dial up modems.
@@darrellsmith4204 14.4 was fast U late to the party Bro
There is a very nice letter in the danish navy's officers school from the forrestry department say that the trees for the replacement of the navy lost in the napoleonic wars are ready. It was sent in 2000ish.
The first rule of warfare is, "Never start a war with your source of munitions."
@Graf von Losinj
Ammo factories are real easy to blow to hell.
I thought the first rule was don't start a war with your source of fuel and food *cough* Barbarossa *cough*
I thought it was "Never engage in a land battle in Asia."
@@benholroyd5221
The first rule of warfare is, "Never start a war with Russia when fighting anybody else.
If you haven't noticed it is always the first rule of warfare. Over on Science & Futurism with Isaac Arthur it has become something of a running joke.
@@calvingreene90 Id say the rule should more accurately be, don't invade Russia from central Europe.
The Japanese didn't really do badly against them, neither did the afghans or the fins
Hospital ships and the naval medical services might be an interesting, related topic for the future.
I agree, my great grandfather apparently spent most of ww1 floating around in hospital ships as he apparently repeated the process of arriving in the combat area, getting on his horse, falling violently ill, riding a ship back to england getting back to full health, essentially getting back on his horse, then falling into near death illness and being carted back to england again (cant verify if its accurate, but its the story i was told)
Fun fact. The current Hospital ships, converted tankers, were built at the same pier as the Exxon Valdez. I spent a year and a half watching that from pier 1 at NavSta San Diego next door to NASSCO.
@@Colt45hatchback Well...your grandfather seemed to be similar to our local pastor/chaplain than...That lazy,actively work avoiding overweight man is sick again...And promptly,the church is visited more during services...
@@NashmanNashhaha im not 100% sure he was actively avoiding work/the war more likely he was just not forged from the right material, my mum is quite often sick also, guess it was just bad genes/poor immune system, although she has been known to be a little alergic to continued effort, so maybe a bit of both haha
@@Colt45hatchback Oh,in no way i meant to accuse your grandfather of being some sort of coward or opportunist(is it written that way?)..Just from your story,his "bad luck"(or in his case very good luck,apparently having collected several guardian angels and chained them to a wall..considering you may not be writing on youtube today if it were different ) is somewhat similar to my local chaplain...Although...that chaplain IS rather lazy(please don´t disturb on mondays...Sir,you have a 7 day work week,that´s why you get around 40 days of instead of the usual 24ish),i still doubt that he would injure himself on purpose
"Supplies are never late, nor are they ever early. They arrive precisely when I mean them to!" - Logistics Wizard
Commodore Gandalf!
Never anger a logistics officer for they are overworked and quick to reroute you to Alaska.
"Where should I dump this load of Pipe Weed?"
"How the hell should I know?! Do I look like the Beach Master?!"
Saving Private Baggins
My grandfather, who was a farmer had to get special approval to join the RAAF in WWII because farming was an essential industry and farmers were not allowed to leave the farm.
My (American) grandfather was not subject to the draft, for the same reason.
"Bullets don't fly without Supply"
But your explanation does that expression way, way better!
A BRILLIANT presentation. As an Army officer I was briefly exposed to the rudiments of naval logistics on a professional development FYI basis. Your presentation was hands sown better the any official instruction by the US Army. Plus, you made this potentially snooze-worthy subject REALLY interesting. Thanks Drach. Thumbs Up.
Since you mentioned that superfiring turrets have disadvantage: how about a video explaining the advantages and disadvantages of different turret layouts?^^
I'd reckon the pros and cons of superfiring are obvious. Pros are taking up less deck space and a full arc of fire. Cons are much higher centre of gravity and more exposed to fire.
I see an one-hour venture into all possible turret designs in our future.
I´d think a Con to the superfiring layout is about ranging where because one turret is higher/lower, the relative angles to get the shells to hit a target will be different from one turret to another (IE: one turret will have to be elevated less or more depending) but by the time of WWII, those issues were mostly sorted out
@@KPen3750
I do not see a 3 or 4 meter difference in the hight of the guns being very important when firing at targets like ships and fortresses.
@@calvingreene90 Lest see at 3 meter (30 feet) the shell hits, at 4 meters it misses by a inch, thus does no damage, no difference you say.
“The war has been variously termed a war of production and a war of machines. Whatever else it is, so far as the United States is concerned, it is a war of logistics.”
- Fleet ADM Ernest J. King
The American Military Best Logistics train on the planet.
If you added up all the war goods made by all the countries fighting, Americans made just shy of half, and we got a late start.
You have to build it before you can ship it.
@@lordgarion514 There's a reason for that, starting with two key factors:
1) The USA wasn't being bombed, so its industry wasn't taking any damage
2) The USA is _big_ . CONUS alone is almost a quarter bigger than all of non-Russian Europe _combined_ .
@@GoranXII
Oh indeed, there were many reasons for America being able to do what it did. The abundance of natural resources being a major one.
But even with all the advantages we had, it was far from certain that we could pull it off with such a late start.
"Very pretty if slightly sinky shore defences"
Perfect 🙂
Such a way with words, one of the reasons I love this channel. "Slightly Sinky" snicker, chortle.
Nice description of Tirpitz.
One great point of this channel -- In comments people discuss points instead of yelling at each other, as do so many other You Tube channels.
Hi, everyone.
BTW, *please* keep the robovoice outro. The nostalgia factor is huge for me, it gives me the warm fuzzies.
Normally I don't enjoy robovoices. Yours was the first channel using one whose content hooked me solidly enough that I was able to get past that prejudice.
I like the small bit of it you've retained as a nod toward the beginnings of your channel.
The channel was only CG voice when I got here.
And I miss it.
The C made some spectacularly bad/funny mistakes.
Especially with "naw__tit__ickle" words and phrases.
Ship names were always a crapshoot.
the robovoice reminds me of the meme channels that use the robo voice.
Completely agree, there was never been a robo voice channel that I would watch until I found this one
I served on an ammunition ship for a period of time while in the U.S. Navy.
It felt weird always sailing independently, as nobody wanted to be within about 20 NM in case we went off.
On USS BUTTE (AE-27) we were told that someone did the math and if we went up all at once in the middle of the ocean it would take eight minutes for the sea to go back to normal.
@@williamgoin139 how many tons of tnt where on board
I’m a simple man.
I see a video with warships narrated by Drachinifel, and I watch.
Thank you for your hard work.
As a member of a supply team I can agree that supply is the most under appreciated part of a well oiled machine. You dont think much about it until you dont have what you need. Nice to see a video speaking to how difficult and important a supply teams job really can be.
Thank you for the comment about the Neosho, it getting sunk does get mentions in the history books, it’s actual importance as a fast fleet oiler is usually not even discussed.
IIRC there were but a small handfull of these vessels. Not enough to have a proper war.
We couldn't have used those BBs if they'd not been creamed.
@@its1110 Still couldn't use them after they were repaired. The US Navy was so short of fleet oilers it was we can supply the carriers or the older battleships but not both. Carriers won. Battleship support had to wait till the North Carolina and South Dakota class fast battleships became available with their more efficient engineering plants.
Once again, Drach highlights a neglected aspect of naval history and gives you a taste of how important and complex it was.
"once the USA decided to go it's own way" such a polite wording for a revolution
We will go our own way again.
Actually colonial rebellion.
@@calvingreene90 eh depends on which side your on as an ungrateful colonial I'll stick with revolution
As a guy who was part of the US Army's Transportation Corp during the Viet Nam mess, I have some familiarity with the subject. But only from a "grunt's" viewpoint.
For most of 1968 I was at the only munitions port in Thailand - at Camp Vayama near Sattahip. All munitions that came in by ship for the Air Force bases in Thailand came through this port.
Most of the ships carrying munitions were old WW2 era Victory ships.
It was an interesting time.
> Americans lucked out and only had to supply 5" ammunition
Having worked with US Military Logistics; A stopped clock is right twice a day.
In the context of the military, shouldn't that be 'once a day'?
@@whyjnot420 Not really as militaries clock is just a reskinned Civilian timepiece still a 24 hour period of real time.
I am sorry if the humorous intent of my question was lost in transmission.
Also, they make 24 hour analog clocks, electrical and mechanical as well.
Well ... actually ... 24 Hour Clocks are the exception - depending on where you are - most of the clocks are standard civilian office clocks - because they are cheaper.
.
@@BobSmith-dk8nw That was only a reply to the statement of the clocks used being analog, trying to make the point that just saying analog does not automatically make them 12 hour clocks.
While today the argument of 24 hour analog clocks being that much more expensive is questionable due to how cheap a quartz clock can be made, that is easily still true when talking mechanical clocks/watches, also its not only more complex, it requires more precision in any given space. Another big reason for 12 hour clocks is that a 24 hour analog clock is harder to read for many people due to everything being squeezed into smaller increments. Yet another reason for 12 hour analog time pieces is simply tradition, a 12 hour cycle for the day goes back thousands and thousands of years (as does the base 60 used for min and sec). Tradition is why you will also see the roman numeral of IIII used instead of the more modern IV for 4.
I actually prefer to wear mechanical pocket watches myself, old school hand wound. I have a couple of electric quartz ones as well.
Anyways, like I said I didn't by any means want to even hint at implying that 24 hour analog timepieces were common, only that they are a thing and that it is wrong to conflate analog with 12 hour. Also my original comment was simply a joke about military time.
One other thought about how cheap clocks can be these days, I remember in high school, the clocks in the classrooms were all analog. Yet I do not think any one of the ones in classrooms actually did any work other than moving the hands, as they were all maintained and controlled by a central system. They might have been semi-independent and had proper movement, but they were certainly able to be manipulated remotely. None of this involved wireless of any kind as these clocks had been there since the 1970s or 60s when the school was built (and I graduated in 98 for some context). All were wired into the schools electrical and you could see them move when being set from time to time, was always weird seeing the clock suddenly seemingly speed up for a min as the time was set ahead or back for whatever reason. If they were actually controlled completely from a central location, that would mean there was nothing but a couple of motors to keep them moving and if they were semi-independent, that means their movement did not need to be precise at all since all they would need is a periodic update from the control system. Both factors would mean any individual timepiece used in that system would be cheaper than a fully independent one (in theory anyways). And its not like you need the precision of a marine chronograph to tell you class has ended so extra cheap is fine there, perhaps even desired.
Didn't mean for this to get as long as it did so I will end it there.
Coming back from a deployment, my ship was low on fuel and the only port nearby that had a sufficient supply was in Ecuador. I recall the engineers grumbling and griping about it as the quality of the fuel was pathetic at best. They had to filter all of it, and there was not enough fuel filters to do the job. They ended up using just about every coffee filter on board to get the sludge out of it.
Which created a whole new problem, I'm sure.
Was that for boilers or more modern engines?
@@CSSVirginia
A well washed T-shirt works as a reusable coffee filter.
@@calvingreene90 Gotta do what you gotta do. I have worked with guys that get down right hostile without coffee.
Did the crew throw the Captain and the Navigator overboard?
During WW2 my father was in the navy.He lived near Norfolk,VA so joining the navy was the thing to do.After training he was put on a train to Portland,OR .An LST had just been finished there. Like so many LST's and Liberty ships it was constructed where a corn field used to be along side the river .They manned the ship and took it down to San Francisco .There it was loaded to the gills with barrels of aviation fuel.They delivered this fuel to a beach in the Solomon Islands.While they were unloading two Japanese planes dropped one bomb each targeting his ship.Luckily they fell one on each side missing the ship and all of that fuel.That was the first act of aggression he experienced during the war.Back in those days racial segregation was the norm.The black people were assigned to the engine room.One of these guys from the engine room had a pet monkey he had picked up in the islands. That pet monkey roamed freely on the entire ship. The crew grew to hate this monkey as he was always stealing tools and tearing stuff up.His LST (Landing Ship Tank ) was used to carry supplies,jeeps,guns,trucks . My father said that whole time he was on that ship it never carried one tank .He was on board for many beach assaults from the Solomon's to New Guinea . They would go down to Australia to pick up supplies . At Sydney the officers on his ship picked up these women and kept them up in the officers quarters .As there was gasoline rationing going on it was somewhat valuable . The officers were paying off these women with gasoline. He could tell when women on board by watching the monkey .The monkey would get excited and start jerking off. Whenever they left a port(such as Sidney or Brisbane) it was done at night .There were Japanese submarines patrolling off of the coast and sometime ships got hit. There were women who stayed on board (in officers quarters) from Sydney to Brisbane where they got off. One day someone turned on a ventilation fan and the blade chopped off the head of the monkey . He was not missed .
Straight to the red seat for those officers, guessing those ladies were carrying unwelcome guests 😎
Well, that is quite a story! I thought LST meant Large Slow Target.
Makes perfect sense when you think about it. Invasions only happen once every few months. Supplies need to get somewhere all the time. LSTs are perfect for the job. I suspect they were the first Roll on, Roll off type of ships. Much easier if a forklift can just trundle a skid full of beans to the exact spot on the ship.
I really hate reading stories where any mention of logistics is ignored.
Many writers tend to aviod it like the plague because they realise, that their super cool army of doom the dark lord sends to crush the noble rebellion will have all the staying power of a dry leave in a wildfire should the rebels realise how fragile the army of doom's logistical situation is and start to employ scorched earth and guerilla warfare.
Having the super cool army of doom desintegrate into mutineering bands of starving soldiers long before reaching the rebel strong hold is somewhat anticlimactic...
Also: Writing a story that is internaly consistent is hard work...
@@Bird_Dog00 I thought it was more that many authors don't understand that it exists, kinda how much most authors don't understand how basic science or math exists.
Thats always
@@Bird_Dog00 after reading this, I have a big question. How the fuck does logistics work in the Star Wars Universe (for example)????? Like props to the Republic and Empire for managing to maintain these huge fuck off capital ships and never seeming to have any fuel shortages etc
@@SpiritOfMontgomery There's a whole lot on Star Wars logistics actually. It's just mostly on extra side material, fan speculation, the side stories etc., and is left out of the movies for obvious reasons.
Gunnery officer: Keep it simple. A ten step process will see you through.
Supply officer: Numbers are life. Life is suffering.
That certainly explains why the USofA Navy specified that the new duel purpose 5 inch would have to fire the same ammunition as the existing 5 inch 51 caliber guns already in inventory.
My father was in the US Marines in WW2, Korea and Vietnam. At age 12, logistics caught my attention. You have skimmed the surface of the topic! To me as a retired professor, logistics is terribly complex, even mind boggling. Most people haven't a clue.
Thank you for covering this very, very important and critical topic!
Fun fact regarding fuel. Most WWII battleships burned about 2.5 tons of oil per mile at their most efficient cruising speed. Of course if they had to move faster the consumption rate went up dramatically. Sending out a task force of carriers, battleships and cruisers burned a tremendous amount of oil.
Canals were the main transport before trains in many countries.
They were an amazing change to commerce. Extensive systems were relatively recent, waiting for the steam engine to run pumps and such for construction and better explosives and harder drill steels. And Engineers to brain it all out via the Art of Hydraulics.
And today so much are now ruins.
@@its1110 England still has an active and regrowing system. I watch several narrowboat CZcams channels. very calming.
Not many countries. Some yes, but once the railway was invented it quickly overtook the canals. There was an extensive canal network in the UK, US, Germany, China, France & the Benelux. There wasn't much in Eastern Europe, Italy, Japan or Australia. It's bit like the telephone network: those who came late tended to skip a step, like Sub-Saharan Africa going straight to cell-phones.
Rivers in North America, then trains and the Mississippi and it tributaries and then the interstate highways and the intercostal water way.
@@Delgen1951 and then there's those two bicycle builders from "Ahia" who decided that a heavier than air machine that could fly into the wind while carrying ppl was possible.
With the attack on Pear Harbor it was decided the US Navy needed a supply site close to all train,truck and water infrastructure, and so the Mechanicsburg, Pa. site was chosen for a Naval central supply Depot. The Mechanicsburg Naval Supply Depot sprang up quickly adjacent to the largest rail classification yard on earth at Enola, Pa. The base went through numerous iterations up to the present day where dozens of DDG 51 engines can be seen on rail cars every day along with millions of items in que awaiting delivery to the fleet.
Not to mention that the Philadelphia Naval yard was only about 2 hours away. And electrified so no need to burn either coal or oil.
Baltimore harbor was also close and a quick connection to Newport News and Norfolk.
Big place that. I was a station keeper at the Harrisburg Reserve Center. I think THAT reserve center existed to provide reserve officers to support the base. And when I was in the fleet, LOTS of mail from there.
The function of logistics is quite simple; It is to have the right stuff in the right place at the right time.
The *Art* of logistics is to arrange this while everyone and his brother is doing their best to mess things up.
Ahem..."mess things up"?
Surely the logistics section would have been, shall we say, more colourful with their language than that?
You might add in the right order of priority loading and unloading . Failure to " combat load " was a big problem at guadalcanal, market garden, and stalingrad. When Hershey bars and beer come before bullets and weapons your army will have problems doing what it's supposed to do.
@@terencewinters2154 Personally, I'd say that combat loading is part of the "right stuff, right place, right time" algorithm. If you don't have the right stuff in the right quantity then logistics has failed anyway.
And yeah, Stalingrad, where I believe the German logistics train managed to waste at least one precious supply flight by sending a plane load of condoms to their beleaguered troops - *WRONG* stuff, wrong place, wrong time.
Not to forget the proverbial Mr. Murphy, who *always* gets a win somewhere.
Logistics can win you or loose you the war.
Even today I'm often surprized (in a bad way), that standardization in ammunition and materials and methods are not taken even more serious than it is, even though a lot has happened in that area.
Logistics is infrastructure. Infrastructure is often and badly taken for granted by people who have never had to do it.
... and they YELL. "We told you this would happen in 3 months 5 months ago... and we've been working our asses off (while you didn't even notice) since 2 months ago. Now it's STILL gonna take 2 months to fix." (Saw a whole IT department burn-out and quit.)
Also keeping the Royal Navy supplied with Rum up until the mid 1970s is just as important as food,fuel, and guns
Don't forget the most important item of all..... tea!
@@Grimmtoof
Cocoa!
Food, fuel, guns... and toilet paper.
Also, ice cream and soda and beer(for beer days).
USS Sacramento(AOE-1) 97-02
Ah, you were in the fun Navy. We only had one beer day (two per sailor) for a 9-month deployment. USS Essex, LHD-2
USS Camden (AOE-2) 92-93
@@tfwomble The Powerful Pachyderm of the Pacific!
I love seeing the Working Navy representing here- "Haze gray and underway" A Gang on AOE 2 Camden and RAS Div on AOE 7 Rainier.
@@tfwomble USS Camden "90-"94 M-Div
Last time I was this early, Virginia Woolf was dressed as an Abyssinian royal aboard the HMS Dreadnought.
Last time i was that early, SMS Cap Trafalgar was dressed as RMS Carmania
Last time I was this early "Kamchatka" wasn't under attack.
Hahaha, love that story!
Bunga Bunga!
Was a baby greenie on HMS Hermes during Falklands flap, I hear we were almost down to ice cream & broccoli at one point.
On the other end of warships, I served on a wooden mine hunter which required food & water replenishment very fourth day which meant pulling in to what ever harbour was handy, easily the best part of my career. The replenishment at sea is clearly the soft underbelly of any warship. Sink supplies is the go to offensive measure.
Look up US Navy Service Squadrons in WW2. The logistical support requirements and effort in the Pacific was staggering to say the least.
Months before a big invasion operation they and the CBs would bop into some little remote atoll, w/in heavy bomber range of the targets, and build some airfields and supply and repair facilities. Then they'd run the operation out of there for a couple-few months.
... Then bop off and leave the place just as remote as it'd been for a couple hundred years.
Read up on the Cargo Cult religions of the Pacific.
Anything related with the Pacific Theater of Operations... mind boggling the logistics involved with that. 🤯
@@CFarnwide Absolutely, an almost unbelievable amount of coordination involved to win the war in the Pacific. Could the USSR have done this? The answer is NO.
@@73Trident I seem to remember someone mentioning the logistics involved to win the war and how staggering they were... but wanted everyone to remember the logistics involved AFTER the war was won. Getting everything and everyone home safe was no easy task.
@@CFarnwide we didnt bring everyone home really. We maintained occupation armies in both Japan and Germany for nearly a decade after. And then the Cold War fired up and we had to increase troop levels again. We STILL Ahave troops along the DMZ in Korea, Marines on Okinawa and Airmen and Ground forces at Landstuhl in Germany.
Bituminous coal is a little bit harder than what the Irish call “turf”....
Note that many US WW1 and interwar designs started WW2 with 5"/25 AA guns and/or 5"/51 single purpose anti-ship guns. Many of the battleships recovered from Pearl Harbor had mixed batteries of 5"/51 and 5"/25 replaced with a uniform battery of 5"/38 (looking at you, California and Tennessee). While these guns used many of the same shells (Mark 35 AA common, for example), the 5"/25 used fixed ammunition while the 5"/38 used separate shell and propellant, with the propellant in a brass case, and the 5"/51 used separate bags of propellant. So while the commonality of shells simplified manufacturing, there are still separate ammunition trains for all three guns because of the way the propellant is handled. It wasnt fully resolved during the war, either, and USS Indianapolis, for example, still had those 5"/25 AA guns in 1945 when she was sunk.
3:56 components, where are they coming from.
Made me think of the intro of "lord of war" showing the production, logistics and use of an AK-round.
24:15 "8 cases kidneys"
Oh good, spare parts!
I can't even imagine the amount of resources it would take to build a Navy from scratch. The warships would be the cheap part.
For a look at the scale of naval fuel storage, see Tom Scott's video on (or rather *in*) the Inchindown oil tanks.
And on a darker note, for improper storage of ammunition, remember what happened in Beirut this August. That was "only" raw ammonium nitrate, and still massively devastating.
Texas City!
World War Two - Port Chicago.
there's a massive crater in the English countryside (which I believe Tom Scott actually did a video on too) that's a better lesson than the Beirut port explosion in terms of improper ammunition storage imp. 😬
@@francistheodorecatte ah yes, the military accident that created the Hanbury Crater on November 27, 1944 was, at the time, the largest non-nuclear explosion ever to have occurred in the world. It occurred when some 3,500-4,000 tons of bombs, shells and rifle ammunition exploded at RAF Fauld, a bomb dump in a disused gypsum mine.
"Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil" by Rear Adm. Worrall Reed Carter.
While editing to correct the title, The rest of my post disappeared. Rats! At any rate, it's the best book on WWII logistics, and that's now the correct title.
I have that book. It's a Fascinating read.
Hate to be the pedant, but it is 'Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil' a rare book
@@admiralsirrusty3465 Whoops!. My brain apparently went into vapor lock on that one.
$100 at Half Price Books, $183 at Amazon if you want a book. $2.99 on Kindle if you are into that.
@@williamgoin139 Also available free on google books
"crew and other consumables"
I love how they sometimes call the consciptts for shps in 40K "human fuel".
Yeah I caught that one too!
Grim but hilarious nonetheless!
yummy.
@@kaltaron1284 Applicable to both modern day and 40k
If I remember reading correctly, 30% of the hundreds of ships involved in the Philippines campaign were warships, 30% carried troops and their supplies, and the rest carried fuel and supplies for the warships. The number of carriers involved alone exceeded the number of carriers of all nations before WW2! The fleet included repair ships, diesel electric destroyers which would be used as offshore generators, hospital ships, tenders for destroyers and submarines, and a ship just for the mail. And of course, refrigerator ships for frozen meat and making ice cream. As Admiral Jingles asked in one episode "what were the Japanese thinking when they went to war with America?".
congrats! you do understand though that you are the main competitor of audible, do you?
Audible decided if you cant beat em join them
Kamchatka [visibly confused]
Kamchatka does not understand logistics, but Kamchatka has spotted wild Japanese torpedo boats.
Are you sinking or you got a hole in one of the pipes
@@toveychurchill6468 I'm happy to report that the skip is NOT sinking. However the midshipman is reporting multiple Japanese torpedo boat sightings coming from all directions.
@@eric24567 Well that sounds unfortunate,for rest of the squadron , we'll just cross fingers and hope your gunnery won't help making enemies for Russia
@@toveychurchill6468 No need to worry, Kamchatka has guns but they're in storage. We will toss binoculars just like Admiral Rozhestvensky has showned us many times.
For the Tsar!!
Yes I had to google Rozhestvensky's name.
was looking for the Kamchatka comment
There are some excellent books available from Amazon that discuss the logistics of WW2 in both the Pacific and European theatres. But one statistic stands out. For every soldier delivered to a Pacific Campaign battlefield between 1942 and 1945, it took 10,000 tons of supplies to put him there and another 10,000 tons per month to keep him there, and that does not include the tonnage of the transports themselves. So great was the need for fleet oilers that the Iowa class battleships spent 80% of their time refuelling smaller ships from their large tanks and not firing their guns. So vast was the expense of conducting the war that of the US federal government budget in 1943 and 1944, 80% was spent on defense and arms production. The same was the case in the UK and it took until 1990 for the UK to finish paying off the debt it ran up with the USA.
Its for this reason that there will never be another global war. Its just so prohibitively expensive, specially these days. In todays money, one 16" shell fired from the New Jersey costs about $18,000. One Harpoon anti-ship missile with the same weight of warhead costs $2 million. One Tommohawk cruise missile costs nearly $7 million. It cost the USA almost the same to fight in Afghanistan in 2005/6 as it cost to send all its forces from Normandy to Germany in 1944-45.
The sheer cost to the USA of maintaining a global defense presence during the cold war was the reason that the US could never afford a free national healthcare system, something that nearly every developed country today takes for granted that its government would provide.
I just imagine Oprah: "And YOU get a shell, and YOU get a shell, and YOU get a shell!" Each audience member getting a different size.
C. S. Forester managed it in several short stories particularly Rendezvous and USS Cornucopia. I find that even after nearly 20 years of retirement that Rendezvous brings back memories of bad weather and night underway replenishment on an Adams class DDG.
His novels do a pretty good job on logistics, in general. Food and the men are so often his subjects.
If we run out of shells, we can always fire biscuits and burn bread.
No No No man, are you insane, fire the bread and create a new currency based on biscuit crumbs!
Or launch a boarding action with the ship's cats!
And the kitchen sink
Let's not forget potatoes!
Load the baguettes!
Logistics, dull, is that the SS Kamchatka on the horizon?
o god
Binoculars: Why do I hear boss music!?
Edit: spelling
@@kingquackie7284 Fish: why are there binoculars in the water.
Nah, just a Japanese torpedo boat. Move along, nothing to see here.
Open fire don't let it come close! For the love of God why.
"Who is on catching duty?"
Duh, the new guy. Why do we have to go over this?
guess who gets to oversee the new guy?
@@Delgen1951 The NCO who pissed someone off.
Nuclear ship engines are basically just a big steam engine with a different heat source
Just go to the spawn point and you get everything you need. Or better, pick-up ammo off your fallen enemies.
Supply Drop Unlocked for In-Game Currency!
Only if their ammo/weapon is same as yours
nice of them to load their ammo into lifeboats while sinking
There’s a quote from Rommel during the African campaign when asked about supplies “get them from the British”
That is how Finland got ammo and weapons in the winter war take them from the dead Sovjet soldiers it's not like they need it anymore
Interesting point being made in regards to propulsion, the PRC today still strips Russian fighter jets to take their engines and place them in their own!
This is the sort of video that gives nightmares to the wehrmacht high command.
Napoleon said it best, an army marches on its stomach.
Back in the 80s we ran an "attack the logistics" scenario in the OP-961 ASW appraisal. The shuttle ships only had the protection of a couple of FFG-7 or FF-1052 class frigates. It turned out that it was far easier to defeat the battleforce by starving it than attacking it.
2057: Drac makes an hour long video on the various types of design for oil tanks found on naval bases
Most of Drac’s audience: claps joyfully
If somewhat feebly.
Having spent many a wet hour on deck whilst RASing, I appreciate the effort put into it! Excellent video as always.
Is this like a sequel to the navy planning episodes, and also when is the next episode on the history of naval guns?
Drachinifel, your remark at 54:48, “after all that effort, you now have a navy ready to fight. Just hope the enemy makes it worthwhile”, almost made me spill my coffee. Excellent video! Every time I think about military supply and logistics, I realize that Eisenhower was right. Your supply chin wins the war. That is often overlooked because it is so mundane, and unglamorous when compared to the shooting, and fighting. Thank you for the video.
As a US Army support battalion vet (50th MSB/42ID (now 250th BSB/50th BDE)), it's nice to see a video about the most important, yet "underrated" portion of any military branch.
Guess who started refueling while at sea for the USN? Nimitz when he was an officer on an oiler helping USN destroyers get to the UK during the Great War. This way they could sail direct.
Thankfully, there are others that have to manage and worry about these things. Add land armies and air forces to a national demand and add theaters of operations - mind boggling!
Thank you for this overview!
You would be an AWESOME Narrator for them, I have listened to you for years and I love your voice and enunciation.
Having served as a plank owner on the USS Platte, AO 186, I recall that often we replenished water in addition to fuel. We transferred mail and various other goods and supplies on occasion. I was in charge of the forward CIWS mount. My UNREP duties were firing the initial shot line across to the alongside vessels and standing by with an explosive-bolt cable-cutter in case we had to cut away the tension line in an emergency. I just wanted to mention that topping off the drinking water was a needed luxury in addition to all the rest you mentioned.
You had mentioned the paperwork involved in tracking just part of what the Royal Navy's logistic arm had to supply. But it doesn't necessarily end there. The amount of extraneous paperwork, reference manuals, etc., that ships are invariably tasked with taking with them can be enormous. There was a scurrilous unsubstantiated rumor in circulation that the U.S. Navy's Pegasus class hydrofoils had to get special dispensation to keep some of their required paperwork, manuals, etc., in storage on shore. Or else they would be carrying so much weight they couldn't get foil borne.
I have also observed that while the widespread use of computers has made some things easier in that some "paperwork" can be done on a word processor and that storing certain information on floppy disks and hard drives takes up a lot less space and weight than storing it in printed form; the amount of such paperwork that was then required increased at a greater rate than the ability of people with desktop computers to process it all. :-(
I half suspect that computer documentation was invented solely so that the bureaucrats could force people to do even more of it. Or at least not be beaten to death by their own paperwork.
The saying in aerospace engineering is that when the weight of the paperwork is equal to the weight of the aircraft the aircraft is ready to fly.
Very interesting video, Drach.
2 little known facts re topics covered:-
(1) The officer largely responsible for early U.S. Navy adoption of the diesel engine was ... Chester Nimitz;
(2) The officer who pioneered under-way refueling/resupply in the U.S.N. was ... Chester Nimitz.
Oh, and he also pioneered U.S.N. submarines; AND built the submarine base at Pearl Harbour!
Looking forward to further vids on the subject.
Having worked on both the T-AKE and T-AO designs for USN, I can assure you that the design process is interesting. The final product is, as are all ships, a compromise, but work well and will keep the fleet supplied as necessary for operations.
Without going into details, I'll just say that I've been in a spot or two in my time serving on a US Navy submarine where food supplies have become a significant limiting factor on operations. Gave me a whole new perspective on the importance of our Supply Department and logistics in general.
Great video! Having been a WW2 historian since childhood (particularly the Pacific Theatre), I’ve always been amazed at the huge supply chain the Allies maintained. Enough has been said about D-Day (and Operation Neptune), but not so much about the refueling/resupply of the vast fleet of ships crossing the Pacific Ocean. I’ve had people argue with me that the largest fleet ever assembled was at Normandy, but I counter that both the invasion of Okinawa, and then to the lead-up to the planned invasion of Japan proper was unparalleled just by the sheer logistical nightmare of maintaining the forces of the Allied Powers [primarily Britain and the United States] whose nations were respectively half a world away! I also get asked sometimes why there wasn’t a great carrier presence at Normandy as was in the Pacific. My answer is obviously because no amount of carrier force could compete with the nearby airfields of England, and then I preface this by positing what your video just explained, that such ships require logistical support in addition to, and as well unique unto themselves.
I want to say I appreciate your videos immensely. As I am a history buff-and Western Civilization has largely been defined (or at least greatly influenced) by naval history, I digest all of your discussions with much enthusiasm. If you plan a trip to the U.S. anytime soon, I should like to meet you (and “Mrs. Drach” of course) in person. I am most enthralled with battleships, and have visiting each museum on my personal bucket list. If you plan a trip to see any of the East Coast ships, I would gladly tag along. I apologize in advance for being an unabashed Anglophile. I do revere the Royal Navy and its great legacy. In fact, some years ago when I bought a boat, I was determined to name her “HMS Warspite” after, in my humble opinion, the greatest ship that ever sailed, but was ultimately overruled by my wife at the time, and the boat was named “Rhiannon” instead. She and the vessel are both now gone!
Once again, thank you for your almighty work.
If you can't make then move the beans, bullets and boots, then you shouldn't go to war.
Also I think its worth mentioning that crude oil quality varied from place to place much like coal. And if the refinery that refined the crude into bunker oil wasn't a high quality facility then you'd end up with a poor quality fuel.
Fantastic video as always Drach.
Excellent story! Some consider maintenance, especially repair, as a part of logistics. I'd like to see repair of ships ( during wartime) in the future.
My father served on a water supply ship in the Pacific during WWII. He said it was sunk and the survivors were stuck on overcrowded lift rafts for quite some time. He stated his skin was damaged by sunburn, and was always easily sunburned after that.
I truly appreciate all the hard work in researching and producing these first class videos. Thank you!
One of the most hated pipes: "Clear lower deck, Store ship" .. dammit.
Is that because you have to move a load of things out the way to take on the supplies... and then put it all back after?
@@wraithcadmus No, the 'clear lower deck' just means all the junior sailors not senior or officers.
So it's 'stop what your doing, and come load stuff onto the ship' and because you are the low life's you get to be part of the bucket brigade and carrying supplies onto the ship.
Speaking of power projection, the US Military Sealift Command possesses more tonnage and hulls than the next ten naval auxiliaries combined.
Thank you for this fine work! I served in the US Navy from 71-75, 1971 to mid 1973 was on a Fleet Oiler USS Manatee A0-58. We supported the Battle Groups in the Gulf of Tonkin and the waters off South Vietnam. We provided Fuel, Ammo, and Food, we would work non stop for two weeks day and night rain or shine. Sometimes we would resupply from smaller oilers and return to the Battle group and sometimes back to the PI to resupply. Never a pat on the back. From 73 to 75 I served on a Destroyer Escort USS Blakely DE-1072 and did a Med cruise. This was literately like being on a cruise ship than a war ship. Well with the exception of playing chicken with a Russian tin can now and then.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
Mast crane in Copenhagen:
da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastekran
Built in 1748-51. The trick was that the majority of the Navy was laid up and only aquired mast above lower mers when fitting out.
And don't forget it all has to be there at the same time! From the fuel oil right on down to the little ten cent gizmo the ship's engines just won't run without. I spent an extra hour at work today getting a machine running because the micro switch we had for one machine wasn't quite the same as the one for the broken machine and the switch had to be modified to fit. At least the floor beneath me wasn't pitching and rolling.
Two is one, one is none!
I love you logistic videos. They are the not sexy part of war, hence they are barely ever talked about.
However, as you've elegantly show, they are also a critical and deciding factor in war.
One thing I think you missed regarding resupply at sea was the need to keep the supply ships resupplied, which generally means you need several sets of the resupply ships to keep the fighting force supplied. For example, and operating from memory (i.e. don't trust my numbers), you have one resupply group keeping the fighting force supplied. You have a second resupply group transiting to a forward supply base to be replenished. Finally you have a third resupply group heading back to the fleet ready to relieve the first group.
It takes on average 10 military personnel to support ONE combat soldier. Throw in the civilian workers and you're looking at about 35 people per soldier. Yeah, that's not ships, but the principle is the same. And every sailor is counted as a combatant.
You and Mark Felton are the only channels I can listen a complete hour video, great job sir!
3:40 Drach: Food, fuel, ammo and spare parts
Altmark: wounded crew, prisoners, prize crew...
This brought 2 things to mind, 1st was the 2nd Pacific Squadron FULLY loaded with coal, and 2nd, 2 ex North Korean soldiers talking about their submarine crews "they have the best jobs, they very rarely suffer from malnutrition".