How to Keep Coffee Beans Fresh: A 30-Day Espresso Experiment
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- How to Keep Coffee Beans Fresh: A 30-Day Espresso Experiment
If you talk to most coffee experts, they'll tell you that the age of your beans has a huge effect on the end product in your cup. But how important is it really to use fresh beans?
In this video, AJ takes you through a 30-day experiment monitoring how aging beans change espresso extraction time, appearance, and taste. We'll also look at how these beans age in the original roaster's bag, in an airtight container, and in the freezer.
Products featured:
Fuego Coffee Roasters Ethiopia: www.wholelatte...
ECM Synchronika Espresso Machine: www.wholelatte...
Ceado E37SD Single Dose Coffee Grinder: www.wholelatte...
Acaia Pearl Coffee Scale: www.wholelatte...
Acaia Lunar Espresso Scale: www.wholelatte...
Asso Coffee The Jack Leveler: www.wholelatte...
Coffeevac 1lb CFV2 Storage Container Clear: www.wholelatte...
WHOLE LATTE LOVE
Get expert advice on products to best fit your needs. Call the coffee experts at Whole Latte Love:
585-924-7170
Talk to our experts via chat or email: www.wholelatte...
Whole Latte Love on Social Media
---------------------------------------------------------
► Follow Whole Latte Love on Instagram: / wholelattelove
► Follow Whole Latte Love on Twitter: / wholelattelove
► Like Whole Latte Love on Facebook: / wholelatteloveonline
I really appreciate how all influential factors been standardized and logged so clearly. Really insightful video!
Hi Mason, thank you for the kind words! I'm glad yo enjoyed it.
AJ
Very insightful experiment! I also logged my extractions and have a very similar result. I noticed major inconsistencies at the beginning, where I started to grind more coarsely to get the right extraction and progressively had to reduce the grind size again until it began getting very consistent.
Beans were 1 week old at the beginning, after 2 weeks the extractions started to stabilize. On the packaging it actually says, that I need to wait 21 days until they are ready to use.
This is an extremely well put together video, with impressive data logging and interpretation. Made with passion.
Thank you, Hafez! It helps to have a passion for both coffee and video production.
AJ
We meet, president prime minister admiral general Aladeen. Fancy some ketamine would you?:
A very well thought out experiment. I'm watching a plethora of videos while waiting for my EMC Synchronika to show up. I've been home roasting my green coffee beans for 16 years now & have that process dialed in. It's fascinating how far 'down the rabbit hole' you can get with having the best cup !
Thanks for the comment!
AJ just pushed Whole Latte Love channel to become Whole Different Love Game.
Hi Felix, Thanks for watching and for the very nice compliment!
AJ
Fascinating experiment!!! Thank you
Thanks, Cole! As a huge video nerd, I love the GlamBOT stuff you've been doing. Keep it up!
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage oh awesome!! thank you! and thank you for the coffee insight to drive my productivity lol
holy shit... this is the best video about the whole beans/age/grinder/extraction-thing i´ve ever seen!!!!!!! Thank you for that.
Hey Dunklerlord, thanks for the kind words and the enthusiasm!!!
AJ
This was a very interesting and informative experiment and video. Probably 1 of the best videos I've seen regarding beans and aging coupled with taste. I'd love to see the same thing done with a bag of Lavazza to see how it compares. Nice work.
Hi Michael, Thanks for the feedback! I would definitely like to repeat a similar experiment with a commercial roast that's designed for a longer shelf life.
AJ
Nicely done.
I roast my beans in 125gm batches, air cool, and then store in glass canning jars. Beans fill the jar nearly completely. The seal is airtight. To me, the air oxidation concern is removed this way. The pressure is certainly there, but no risk to glass fracture. Beans are best after about 7-14 days. Lots of CO2 gassing, once opened up and ground. Lots of foam. Containers are washed, dried, and reused.
Sounds like a good system, and I'm glad you can reuse the containers. Less wasteful than some methods I've heard. I still prefer something with a one-way valve to let gas out, but if you're sure the glass won't break, it sounds like it works well!
AJ
800 roasts and no breaks. May need to replace the metal seal now, to improve tightness. 👍👍
Wow, I'm just starting with my coffee journey, so I'm gathering information in the last days. This ist the best vid regarding coffee storage, I have come across. Can't understand why it has only 50k views after two years.
Thank you very much for your hard work!
Awesome, thank you!
This was extremely well experimented and explained. You did a ton of work for this video and took the time to explain every variable that could change the tests. I definitely want to see more videos like this! I just gotta finish painting my new home and I’ll be able to try it myself with my new Bezzera Matrix MN (purchased through WLL of course)
Hey Matt, Thanks! I definitely want to make more videos like this. Love the Bezzera Matrix too, the lights make me feel like I'm at a party every time I make a drink!
AJ
I remember Marc mentioning this testing during the live streaming couple months ago. Worth the wait! Being new to the esspresso world i appreciate the information. Thank you!
I was wondering if anyone would connect the dots with his teases during the live stream, good memory! Thanks for watching and commenting.
AJ
I use a vacuum sealed canister for storing my coffee beans. The coffee was exhibiting a drastic change after the 3rd week. So, I have to set my grinder to finer in order to achieve the pre_infusion and brew time. The taste seems to be much bitter too, and the taste stay through for slightly over one month.
Thanks for sharing this experiment which presented in a more scientific way with graph and data, good job!
Hi Callum, Thanks for the comment and sharing your process/reults!
What a brilliant video. Answered so many of my questions. I have a néw synchronika and have struggled to get a consistent brew and now I know why!
Hey Chris, thanks! Absolutely love the Synchronika and hope this helps you get the most out of it.
AJ
AJ, Thanks for a very informative, brilliant video which was as informative for me as viewing a James Hoffman or a Sprometheus Video.
I use both Black 1.2 Lb Fellow Atmos and Black 1.0 Coffevac storage containers. I single dose with both a Ceado 37S (with a bellows modification) and with a Niche Zero (with occasional bellows blow through to reduce its minimal retention).
I have found that I prefer beans at 21-30 days post roast or even older because of what appears to be a more consistent flavor in my cup.....in contrast to the brighter, inconsistent notes of beans closer to the roast date, as you found. The vacuum of the Atmos seems to increase the relative degassing compared to the natural off-gassing with beans stored in the Coffevac. For me Atmos stored beans achieve desireable drinkability sooner, although storage in both is great.
Your study with its daily taste analysis has given me a greater understanding of my preference for "older" beans and their consistency of flavor, which seemed at odds with previous, prevailing thinking where "fresher is better". Thank you again for giving me that understanding through your study. This is another excellent WLL video.
Hi Victor, Wow, what a compliment! Thank you so much!
Interesting take on using both of those containers for storage, and your findings make sense to me. Do you tend to use the Atmos for the beans you'll be using sooner and the Coffeevac for longer term storage to slow down the degassing?
There are certainly still lots of "fresher is better" people, whether they actually believe that through their own testing or that's just what they've always been told. Another commenter on this video roasts his beans daily and says they start losing flavor after 4 hours. To each his own, but my wallet and sanity are very thankful that I don't fall into that camp.
AJ
Very good test, done in a pretty scientific way, excellent !
I've been storing beans in airtight containers in my freezer for a couple of years now, in periods upwards three months.
And my gut feeling has always been that the real benefit is after 30 days.
It's pretty obvious in shot time, but actually also in the bloom on a pour over in some coffees.
Hi Daniel, While I focused on espresso, it's good to hear your experiences support my results with pour over as well. Seems like you've got a good method down that works for you!
AJ
Thanks for sharing this experiment. I found it very interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love starting my day with videos like this! I haven't even ground my beans, yet- however, I feel awake and happy!! I Love Coffee Science!! Thank You for sharing your knowledge!! Awesome!!!
Hi Charles, I love the enthusiasm! Thanks for watching and enjoy your coffee ☕️
AJ
Hi, yes. Really very well done and informative. However and I don't mean to sound critical or be judgemental but this and most other coffee testing and experiments are always qualified with the "your results may be different" or "results depend on ..." so I with so many variables both quantifiable and not quantifiable I wouldn't exactly call it coffee "science".
Just Wow ! So many variables !
Thanks for your work on this experiment. I'll watch for others.
Thank you!
AJ
Wow ! excellent piece of work, Whole Latte Love ! Appreciated.
Hi Byrod1, thanks for the comment!
AJ
Probably the best coffee storage video on youtube.
Wow, what a nice thing to say! Thank you very much, Amr Ali!
AJ
I thoroughly recommend sealable valve bags. Don't throw them away. I found the same at home on variability. By day 14-21 I don't touch my grinder. Days 1-10 were rollercoaster. Day 1 was sublime though.
Good tip, and I'm glad you've shared similar experiences. Those bags are certainly good storage for smaller quantities.
AJ
So glad I watched this, I thought I was crazy when I had to coursen my grind as my young beans just started to age, Even took the grinder apart to clean..
Happy to help!
AJ
Very informative. Thank you!
Hi Kim, Thanks for the comment! ☕️
AJ
❤ thank you for doing this experiment. It explained a lot about why my beans tasted better at then of the 14 days after roasting
Hi MK, You are welcome - thanks for the comment!
I would have love to see a comparison with a vacuum canister.
Good idea, I'll add it to my list!
AJ
Me too. Thanks for the enlightment .
While you're at it try some vacuum Ziploc style bags too. Amazon sells several brands that are cheap and made for sous vide cookers. I've been using them lately at home.
@@DPaulk87
Can you post a link, please? Currently using the regular ziplock bags, but would love to use a truly vacuum type.
Excellent and helpful video. This is a new (higher) level of video for WLL and I like it!
Hi Russ, I'm glad you enjoyed the style. You keep watching the videos and we'll keep making them!
AJ
I believe the underlying mechanism is barometric pressure which affects the boiling point of water, and also affects the flavor of compounds in the coffee that we extract..
*
I didn’t read all the comments, but did you track barometric pressure with the inconsistent shots?.
*
Anytime I order more than 12 ounces of coffee beans I put them in mylar bags and pop them in the freezer. I have found they keep very well for 2-3 months that I know of...
*
I have little practical experience with vacuum sealer‘s, but my girlfriend stored some coffee in Mason jars with a vacuum sealer. And I was very surprised that the coffee was fresh months later. I would be interested if anyone else has experience with the vacuum sealer‘s.
Hi Rob, I did not track barometric pressure in this test. Vacuum sealed containers are interesting, as they tend to speed up degassing. Definitely something I'd like to include in future tests.
AJ
LOL, I didn’t mean to give the impression that I know what I’m talking about. But I have been googling because of the mysterious sounding humidity being related to tweaking the coffee grind every day. And I’m wondering why this is the case in air-conditioned Environments like coffee shops. environments like coffee shops. It turns out that the relative humidity is variable and depends on temperature and pressure (obviously the temperature is consistent in a coffee shop, but the barometric pressure is not). Long story short (too late), I’m wondering if the barometric pressure is the root cause of needing to tweak coffee grinds every morning (as the barometric pressure changes with the weather).
WOW!! Love you guys at WLL 😍 This really makes sense to me and shatters all the myths some “YT coffee experts” keep spewing like a broken record, notably that beans deteriorate after 14 days. Actually, my best and balanced shots are pulled exactly like what you demonstrated in your experiment: week 3- 1 month after roast. I’ve even had pretty decent shots at *2 months* after roast, stored only in the roaster’s 1-way valve bag in a cool, dark drawer.
Hey MunkyBiz, awesome! There is certainly a time and place for super fresh beans, but to say that all coffee needs to be drank in that time window is just wrong. Thanks for sharing your experiences!
AJ
very interesting video, thank you AJ! you seem to have confirmed a suspicion Ive had a long time. I used to order fresh roasted coffee beans online from a fe w different places, and very fresh indeed - shipped in a sealed bag day of roast and to me via overnight courier. At first I was amazed by the lively bright taste of 1 day to a few days old coffee. But over time I noticed regularly (I would order two bags each time so I would drinking those two bags over a month evenly) that while the coffee taste was not as lively in week 3-ish onwards, the flavor was much more balanced, subtle and enjoyable! so then I started ordering 2 weeks into using the 2 bags so I would be getting to the new bags right around 2.5-3 weeks after receiving them. And that provided a consistent balanced and neutral taste. I thought I just preferred older coffee - but you seem to have proven the reason why!
Hey Bondi, Great to hear your personal experience on this topic. Perfect example of doing your own taste testing and find a solution that works best for you. Preferring "older coffee" certainly makes things easier from a consistency and financial standpoint.
AJ
I've been getting beans from my local roaster for years. Often when I come in on a Tuesday, he has just finished roasting my favorite French Roast (or I have to come back a couple of hours later when it's done). I first thought that warm from the roaster was best, but years ago, he advised me that I'd like the taste even better after 4 or 5 days of aging in the bag. I put the bag one I'm using in an airtight cannister, and keep the second pound in the refrigerator. As AJ's experiment shows, it's hard to get solid data proving what's the absolute best.
@@dankruvand4937 so did you enjoy it 4-5 days after? Or something different maybe? It is hard indeed to get a definite time frame, as you said. But I think there is a general truth in the beans tasting better at least a few days after roasting. Much of that depends on the roast itself I think....
This is a stunning experiment, because of your attention to detail and your passion for the craft.
I do really want to know, what was the ambient room temperature you stored your beans at? I live in an arid desert environment (home temp is around 25-26 Celsius), and I'm expecting temperature, not humidity, to be my biggest enemy in the quest to keep beans fresh.
Hi TH, Thanks for the comment and question. Beans were held at room temps ranging from 18-24C/65-75F.
This is why I love that Bicycle Coffee does 2.5lb bags at an extreme reasonable $35. Lasts me about 2-2.5 weeks, I keep what's not in my hopper in a vacuum container. It tastes great and never gets to the point where it varies off the initial point very far.
Sounds like you've got a good system worked out!
AJ
Thanks a million for this video. Now I can show this to one of my overrated local roaster who apparently shamed me for asking for beans that were roasted a week ago.
Ha! There are certainly people who swear by those first few days, but IMO there's nothing wrong with week-old beans. Maybe they'll give you a discount on their older stock.
AJ
Beans are degazing over time. Very interesting video!!
Hey Antoine, thanks for the comment!
AJ
Good job!!! Your analysis dealt not only with issues about age and storage, but also the parameters for dialing-in a great shot. Thanks.
Thanks, Julian! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
AJ
Messed with my mind one this one. I expected it to taste best 5-7 days and steadily decline from there. Now I have to rethink all my assumptions... 😁
Ha! Glad I could make your question your coffee world.
AJ
Roaster shop told me that the first 2-3 days are usually sour, the best period would be on the 4th day, and stay through the week. However, proper vacuum sealed, staying away from hot area, high humidity and even lights will help to preserve better taste.
I've had some really interesting coffees when used 'too soon' like 2-7 days after roasting, I think it depends on the type of coffee and roast level maybe.
I figured when it's super fresh it's still de-gassing rapidly especially after being ground, and you can help avoid that to some degree by grinding and letting the grounds sit for a few minutes before tamping, otherwise I suspect it would cause channeling from the gasses, and brew too fast (but it doesn't seem to be the case here, unless that's why it went from a normal shot time at first to a higher shot time later, possibly after it wasn't de-gassing as much).
You might get different results with a conical burr grinder which brings out more brightness /acidity as well vs a flat burr grinder.
I did get a coffee recently that was pretty bland and meh, from a good roaster, and towards the end of the bag which was probably about 3 weeks later, it actually started to get better tasting, so some coffees need more time than others it seems.
Ben yes， makes a lot of sense.
This is one of the most insightful videos about coffee i ever watch! Thank you.
Ohh by the way. Regarding the coffee ages, i found that: The older the coffee the better the taste. Even when the crema look the worst.
Hi Gusmank, Thanks for the kind words! As for the old coffee, if that's your preference, more power to you. Have you found a limit to how old you'll drink it?
AJ
I never drink coffee older than 30 days. As my 1kg stock only last about 20-25 days. I stored them in Mason Jar. And I separated the the bean into 250g each. So i only open one jar every 5 days. Keep the other intact. But from this routines, i can say, when it reach 20-25 days the crema isn’t look that good anymore. But the taste does.
@@gusmank Sounds like you've got a good system worked out! In the end taste is the most important thing by far.
AJ
Thank you for this more advanced content. WLL always had good content for beginner home baristas. I like the fact that this type of content speaks to those of us who are past that stage and are looking at getting more advanced in our hobby (craft, addiction...).
Hey Speedster, I'm glad you enjoy the content. We definitely try to cater toward the full range of espresso enthusiasts. With nearly 1,300 videos on the channel, Marc has made some seriously deep, expert level videos that I'm sure you'd love, and we'll continue to make more stuff that speaks to this level!
AJ
I wish this test was performed with a bottomless portafilter. I've had massive channelling issues with older beans even with an OCD.
Hi Patrick, I didn't want to use a bottomless portafilters because I knew I'd be dealing with improperly dialed-in grind sizes, which can get messy with bottomless PFs. Dealing with precise weights, any squirts that missed my glass could throw off my results.
With the OCD, are you tamping afterwards? My personal favorite distribution tool is the Bravo Distributor and Leveler. Instead of setting the depth of the blades, it's gravity-fed so it will distribute evenly regardless of how high your grounds sit in the PF. Followed by the Bravo spring tamper, it's nearly impossible to achieve anything but perfectly consistent results. Here's a link to both products:
www.wholelattelove.com/products/bravo-espresso-distributor-58-4-mm-matte-black
www.wholelattelove.com/products/bravo-espresso-tamper-aluminum-handle-58-5-mm-matte-black
AJ
I am amateur (meaning I only make coffee at home). I get freshly roasted coffee shipped to me but for various reasons I sometimes last on a single shipment for an entire month. I try to only put in the grinder no more coffee that I will use in a day and also I time and weigh every single espresso shot and add corrections to the grinder as I go. I also weigh the coffee to 0.1g because my grinder does that for me. The packages I buy are made from plastic and beans are sealed pretty well so I don't transfer beans out from their original packaging. I seal the bag every time, very tightly.
I found that yes, the extraction times do change over time (so I need to correct my grind settings every other day typically) but I also found that when I finish one package of beans and go to a fresh one I need go back with my settings a bit which means that having the package unopened does a little bit to preserve the beans.
I also found no channeling issues unless I screw up the distribution and then I know it. I think this is largely a matter of properly storing the beans. If you don't let them dry out completely, for example storing it in a hopper for many days, then you should be fine as long as you have good technique.
In particular I think tamping very hard causes the puck to be prone to cracking if the coffee is older (dry? I don't know how coffee humidity changes). Try to grind more finely but tamp gently to get puck that is bit more elastic and not too fragile.
This is an amazing experiment. I sure learned a lot from this. Good job 👌
Hi Yuri, thanks for the comment!
AJ
The rise in extraction times in the second week are so extreme and unexpected that it might be worthwhile repeating the experiment that far with all the same parameters. This may have been outlier event (due to unknown causes).
That's fair. I may repeat in the future, but I also welcome anybody else to run a similar experiment and share their results.
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage I'm not new to coffee or espresso, been grinding and pulling my own shots for almost 8 years now using various beans from various roasters small and large. Your experiment proves what I've long expected that coffee is like my other hobby, (previously profession), photography. In photography shutter speed, aperture and ISO control your picture but within those variables there are so many other variables like subject, scene, and the human that no two shots of the same scene even at the same time and certainly over time are the same, it is truly a snapshot in time. It would appear coffee is much the same.
I wish I could afford and had the time and level of equipment to repeat your experiment but I don't have any of those so I only hope other coffee shops and retailers will take up your challenge.
In the meantime as someone who enjoys an Americano everyday and an occasional espresso based specialty drink, I'll keep enjoying the uncertainty of the journey.
Thank you for the information.
I have the same observations as Mathew too.
Excellent and thorough experiment!
Thanks for watching and for the comment!
AJ
I roast my own beans I usually drink them at the 7-10 mark and start going through my batches...I've never had anything over 2 weeks but its good to know that potentially 3 week old beans is no big deal so I can really roast ahead more than I have been doing. Great video and quite informative.
I'd be curious to know your experience as you test out older beans from your roasted batches. Feel free to report back!
AJ
Awesome attention to detail.
Thank you! Cheers!
Woah, this is gold.
Can imagine the amount of work put into doing this, much appreciated!!
Hi D L, It was definitely a lot of work! COVID hitting right in the middle didn't help, but I'm glad I got to finish it anyway. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage absolutely! Sharing this with my team of baristas.
I personally find that it varies from type of beans. Brazil beans are much more stable, the most drastic change of extraction time is Colombia. It can swing from grind setting from 15 down to 1 within 2 weeks.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
AJ
Very cool experiment. Thank you for doing this.
Awesome picture for what is going on. Thank you.
Thank you! It was a fun experiment and your support allows us to keep doing videos like this.
AJ
Great & thorough testing, thanks for doing it!
Hi Mongoose, thanks for watching and commenting!
AJ
Both fascinating and informative.
Thanks, John!
AJ
very nice, AJ! humble and scientific!
Hello Ko Amin Samudera, Thank you very much!
AJ
This is the nerdiest video I’ve ever seen on this topic and I loved every minute of it. I’m going to have to buy a coffeevac!
Haha thanks Mike 🤓
This is the Coffeevac I would recommend most: www.wholelattelove.com/products/coffeevac-1lb-ttv-1-storage-container-black
The black container will keep light away from your beans in addition to fresh air.
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage I have a black Tightvac container of the same size. It has the button to provide an airtight seal but there is no one-way valve that I can see. Is there then a difference between the Coffeevac and the Tightvac containers?
@@mathof1 They're the same company, just different product names, and use the same system. There is a degassing valve built into the button. From the TightVac site:
"All our containers despite the names ( Vitavac, Minivac, Tightvac, Teavac, Coffeevac, Kilovac, Breadvac, Pawvac ) work the same and can be used for many different things ( dry food, coffee, tea, pet food, treats, vitamins, pills, etc.)... Our one way degassing valve eliminates carbon dioxide buildup...our degassing Valve was designed to allow any build up of gas or odors to escape, so if you have a product that omits gas or is particularly strong smelling then this odor will leak out of the degassing valve."
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks very much. That's good to know.
Fantastic experiment and data analysis! Also, as opposed to freezing the beans only after letting them rest first, what would happen if you took the frozen beans you had, and after removal from the freezer, you THEN continue the test again for 30 days. I have a feeling that rather than "locking in" the early results, the now unfrozen beans will produce a profile over the next 30 day period similar to the beans stored simply in the bag. If so, you start with a 30 day supply, freeze the remainder, test over 30 days for the best profile, then unfreeze everything and let rest the amount of time that yielded the best results from the 30 day test, then RE-freeze and then only defrost a 2-3 day portion each time, locking in a flavour profile that you could reproduce even months later. Or simply wait until you get a great profile, then freeze everything left and only unfreeze what you will use in the next 2-3 days.
Hey Reuven, those are all great ideas! I agree that removing the frozen beans would likely result in a similar profile to the bag (or the Coffeevac, if you don't open them) over the next 30 days. The suggestion about testing and discovering the best profile, then either freezing everything at that point, or using that as a target "age" for future beans also seems really good, but certainly more subjective and less easy to quantify. It would probably work if you use the same beans all the time, to determine the perfect age for that specific brand/roast. I would encourage you (or anyone) to use that method to find what works best for your specific beans and taste preferences. Feel free to report back!
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage Beans may vary a bit but I've heard that waiting 10-15 days after roasting is basic and then it would just be fine adjustments if someone is a more experienced and sensitive coffee expert. So maybe just waiting 15 days, then freezing and then using small amounts is an easy hack for most of us. Getting the air out and possibly using a better freezer (under 0 degrees fahrenheit) also protects the beans from moisture which can disturb the good flavours.
Excellent, well-thought-out experiment. I’m very impressed. And a very intelligent set of takeaways. Well done.
Hey Marc, Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
AJ
Great test and information.
Hi Tham Tham, Thanks for the comment!
AJ
Great video.
I would like to see a similar experiment with a vacuum container. What's interesting about vacuum containers and fresh roasted beans is that it seems to be helping the beans de-gass faster, which could be to a huge advantage for home roasters like myself and many others.
Hi Dö Lö,
Good suggestion, I definitely want to do some testing on vacuum containers. Keep an eye out for future videos.
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage i find zwilling fresh and save...it s ok for keep beans ?
That's quite an interesting experiment! Thanks for the effort to share with us!
Hi Álvaro, I'm glad you found it interesting. Thanks for watching!
AJ
Amazing work and commitment! Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
AJ
An excellent experiment. This mirrors my experience with Kicking Horse beans on a Breville Infuser and grinder, using a fine balance and a 2:1 brew ratio - extraction time was inconsistent (with newly opened beans stored in an airtight container at room temperature) for the first week or so, with a trend to longer extraction times (near 35-40 s) to reach the 2:1 yield, necessitating coarser grinding (to my surprise), which then switched to much (!) shorter extraction times after (even falling below 20 s) for the next 1-2 weeks, forcing about finer grinds once more, despite a good (I think) tamping technique. A real art - there is nothing static (no pun intended) about pulling a good shot. We need more experiments like yours. One on the consistency (or lack thereof) of latte art would also be good :). Nothing like celebrating one of the greatest beverages ever invented by humans.
Hi Herbert, thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like they match mine almost identically. As for the latte art experiment, what would you test?
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi AJ :). I found lowering the brew temperature in the "early" phases, with some of the more overextracted shots, helped rescue them to a degree, to the point that they were quite interesting esp. in milk-based drinks. Adding a very tiny amount of salt also could help temper the bitterness on such shots, to the point that one of my friends labeled a 48-s shot on a 2:1 brew ratio as "excellent". Overall, however, I found the best-tasting, smoothest, shots were about a week into room-temperature bean ageing with a more classic 20-25 s extraction. Re latte art, an experiment (a) comparing foam consistency from whole milk vs. 2% or 1% and (b) studying the effect of frothing time and final milk temperature on foam consistency for art would be interesting (Is it true that only full-fat milk can produce good latte art, or can one compensate with more intense frothing and temp adjustment? Some people should not consume whole milk, so that could be a good contribution). Anyway, great work!!
So your environment was the likely cause moving from work to home. Your left image for Day 1 vs 30, also shows the power light has more depth and color, so its likely not the extraction. But i think if there is an actual take away, regardless of the testing, yes vacuum or air tight containers that are not plastic would be a better choice than most other storage options.
Thanks for the comment!
Nice job! Learned something.
Thank you, glad you liked it!
AJ
Amazing information thanks a lot, it will be even better if you make a second part of this series, all the way until your beans gets stale.
Hey Josue, A longer test would certainly be nice, but that could take a long time! Especially in a CoffeeVac or similar container.
AJ
Excellent one of a kind video! When you say airtight container, do you mean a vacuum container, container with one way valve or container with neither of those features?
Hi Muhammed, I'm talking about a container with a one way valve, specifically the Coffeevac CFV2: www.wholelattelove.com/products/coffeevac-1lb-ttv-1-storage-container
AJ
Thanks so much for this great video!!
Hey Jan, you're welcome!
AJ
Excellent and useful presentation. Thank you.
Hi Bill, Thanks for the comment!
AJ
Very informative and interesting....thanks for taking the time and effort to do this👍👍
Hi Donn, I'm glad you found it helpful!
AJ
Great work worthy of the Hoff!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
AJ
This is great stuff. More of this please
Hey Russel, thanks! Definitely hoping to do more of this kind of thing. Got any suggestions?
AJ
Thank you so much for this video, so useful. Great job.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
AJ
Wow...the amount of data from all of those variables... The rabbit hole of espresso, eh. The 1st week' results maybe outliers. Can't wrap my head around it.
Anyway, amazing work. I thought earlier you guys are here only to sell coffee stuff from your store - in which case, being on the other side of the world and a global south resident, I would be your last customer. But from this experiment and commitment, I don't think so no more (discussion in the comments too!). Suscribed.
Thank you! Your subscription is important, even if you're not a potential customer. Thanks for the kind words!
AJ
So after you took your entire setup to your home, where you then gained complete control, extraction times stabilized and became consistent. Have you considered that someone was messing with your setup in the office?
Haha, that would be a cruel prank. No, Marc and I are pretty secluded from the rest of the staff. I also roped off that area and put up big "LONG TERM EXPERIMENT IN PROCESS, DO NOT TOUCH!" Signs all over. I think it's safe to say that people stayed away.
AJ
Great video fun and informative, superbly done, thank you
Hi Orrin, Thanks for watching and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
AJ
Thanks, this is insane well done and controlled well
Hi HOB, you're welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting!
AJ
I'm amazed at the wild swings in extraction time. I've been noticing a similar problem when I make v60s lately and I'm thinking it's time to invest in a few Atmos containers.
Make one think that beans pull the best shots after they’ve had time to stabilize after degassing.
Hi CJ, Yes, I imagine the results would have a similar influence on pour-over, too.
AJ
fantastic upload!
Hi Bob, Thanks!
AJ
I love these types of experiments and videos. They’re super helpful in providing context for my own espresso making.
I usually wait until 10 days after the roast date before I pull shots. But I do end up with shot time variability, which can be pretty frustrating. So I’m glad to see that if one waits longer, the variability is less.
One part I’m confused about: The result graph starts at day 1, but the video says he started the store/pull experiment 5 days after roasting. Does this mean Day 1 on the chart is 5 days after roast?
This would mean waiting 21 days from roast date instead of the 10-14 I’ve read about. Is this correct?
Hi Will, thanks for the feedback and question. You are correct variation starts to subside at about 3 weeks. Keep in mind that's for this particular coffee and YMMV for other bean types and roast levels.
Don't anyone tell AJ that I'm watching this video while drinking coffee from a Wegmans K-cup.
We need to talk...
AJ
Great science, thank you!
Thanks for watching and commenting ☕️
AJ
Just to clarify, "Day 1" should really be like, "Day 6" right? Since it's +5 days from roast, in case we wanted to use your results as a benchmark when looking at very recent roast dates?
love this video thank you so much!
Thanks for watching and commenting!
AJ
Whole Latte Love ❤️ ☕️
Great experiment! true to scientific principle. As I suspected there are way too many variables in coffee to have a consistent taste. From beans (altitude, climate, regions, type), roasting method, storage method, grind method, brew method, brew technique, water chemistry, margin of error and taste...spending hundreds of dollars is bs.
You're right, there are SO many variables in coffee, and especially espresso. I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
AJ
AJ this is a very interesting test you've done. In the world of testing, however, data scatter and outliers are your enemies, which is why you ensure the results are repeatable before you draw any conclusions. It’s risky to look at a sample of one. Equally important is a controlled environment and having to move your experiment to a different site, in the middle of testing, might have inadvertently altered the results. Was the water the same? Ambient temperature and humidity? Could vibration during transportation have had a subtle effect on the equipment, like the grinder? Maybe not, but the only way to find out is by showing that the test results are repeatable. I encourage you to complete the experiment. Thank you.
Hi Alejandro, All of the points you bring up are certainly valid. I agree that this sample of one shouldn't be taken as more than a standalone test and reference point, and tried to make clear the "your milage may vary" idea in the video. If you read through the comments, you'll notice that my findings are in line with a number of other viewers' experiences. While I would love to repeat the test, it is a huge time and resource commitment, which would take away from our ability to keep regularly producing other videos for the channel. I'm not saying it won't happen down the road, but it's more likely that I'll focus on testing different types of beans, variables, etc. I will certainly keep your feedback in mind when I run those tests.
On your notes about the variables, both the office and my home are kept at 72°F. I measured humidity in both locations with a hygrometer and they were consistently within 5%. My home is 5 minutes from the office, a short, smooth, car ride (not to say that this couldn't have effected the equipment). We're in the same city and share the same water supply (though I recognize that plumbing differences could effect this). While I agree that the move wasn't ideal, I did whatever I could to control all variables when the state locked down due to the virus. That said, even if you wanted to look at the two halves of the month as separate experiments, I think the results are just as interesting, especially the up-and-down curve in the first half of the month while I was still in the office.
Again, thank you for the feedback!
AJ
Wow, what a great job AJ! The results are very interesting. So many variables to control and consider.
I noticed your graph started at day 1 yet the beans were 5 days old when you began the experiment. Should the data points all be shifted to the right?
I'd like to see you repeat the experiment with a dark roast as I'm interested to see if the roast/bean type makes a difference.
Cheers
Phil
Hi Phil, Yes! X-axis in the chart is days into experiment, not days from roast (which would be X+4). I meant to mention this in the video, so thanks for bringing it up.
I would like to repeat a similar experiment with a dark roast, as well as a commercial bean blend, to see how the results differ.
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage I'm looking forward to watching it AJ
Thanks for doing this. I think I’m using beans that are too fresh. I’m going for 14 days on my next bag.
Hi Damien, you're welcome. Hope waiting a few days helps!
AJ
Great video. But how seasoned was the Ceado grinder? My Ceado drove me to mild insanity while it was breaking in. It was just impossible to dial it in and have it remain consistent for more than a few shots or a morning until it had six months of daily use. I hang my head in shame for all the sink shots...
This particular E37SD has been used around the office for a year, and is thoroughly broken in. I believe it's actually the same grinder featured in this video: czcams.com/video/qPWNcfbRcIs/video.html
I hear you about the "sink shots." I've had to sacrifice many while filming, you can only drink so much espresso in a day.
AJ
Very interesting results. I usually freeze my beans and then take them out one bag at a time, however, I never looked into freezing them after a set amount of time after the roast date. From now on I'll start doing that, say, only freezing them after 7 days after the roast date.
And speaking about naked porta-filters, I for one always feel that there is difference of flavor between using a naked PF and a regular PF. What about testing that out?
Hi Luciano, Sounds like a good thing to test! Feel free to report back your results.
As for the naked portafilters, I recently had a discussion with Dalla Corte Coffee Pro and WBC judge Danilo Lodi about bottomless portafilters, and he explained that naked portafilters can have less thermal stability due to the reduces mass of metal causing temperature fluctuations in the basket (think of the metal of the spouts as insulation). If this is the case, there could in theory be a difference in flavor. Testing is a little harder, because taste so individualized and nonquantitative. I suppose I could get a group together to do blind tasting, but that may need to wait until after COVID.
AJ
Very interesting! Cheers
Stass Brewing, thanks. Cheers! ☕️🍺
AJ
I can see a difference on pull after as little as 5 days from roast.. for me they are best from day 2-4 after roasting. Maybe I should roast a few batches and let one sit for a few weeks and then try them.. my half pound batches I roast are always gone within 5 days.
I'd love to hear your experience comparing your fresh from roast shots vs. the ones you let sit a few weeks. Feel free to report back!
AJ
I too have a had similar thought with regard to a Yemen batch I roasted. Whenever I get new beans I like to make espresso once a day starting 24 hours post roast and will do these on each day to profile the flavor. The Yemen beans I am currently brewing went from fruity and rounded on day one, more chocolatey and slightly smoother on day two, and most recently a full texture that wasn’t present in days prior on day three.
It would be helpful to me to see similar comparisons with brewing methods. I primarily use an AeroPress.
Hi Tim, Thanks for the suggestion! I'll mark it down for future videos.
AJ
Probably similar results to some degree with an aeropress but less noticeable
I wish this kind of tasting data was available for Aeropress and pour over.
Hey Sparktrician, thanks for the suggestion. We're always looking for new video ideas so I noted that one.
AJ
Bravo! A great answer to an often asked question.
Would like to see more videos with a similar scientific approach. For one such idea, I'd like to see an experiment that quantifies the changes in coffee beans over time when held in the hopper of a typical grinder. A typical user might buy a 12 oz bag of coffee and dump the entire bag in the hopper, leaving it until it's gone. So the question is: how much is lost over the week or so that it takes to use those beans?
I like this idea, and definitely a good real world test. A 12oz bag will give you twenty 17g double shots. After accounting for dialing in and waste, and let's say you drink two double shots a day, that's probably about 6-7 days worth of beans. What would you measure over the week to quantify it? If it's set up similar to the experiment in the video (leaving the grinder set and measuring difference in extraction time), I imagine the results would be close to the paper-bagged beans for any given 7-day stretch on my graph, depending on how fresh the beans are. Is there some other parameter you'd like to see measured?
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage The purpose of the test is to see what, if any, difference there would be between a typical, lazy user's workflow of using the grinder's hopper to store the current bag of beans that are in use, vs a more involved storage of beans in the paper bag, and grinding each day's worth, as needed. To sort this out, you cannot single dose one while hopper-grinding the other because the use of a different method of grinding introduces a second variable.
As in your experiment, I would keep the grind setting constant and pull shots to measure the time to target shot weight. For one setting, just fill the hopper and pull your shots each day until it's all used up. Maybe discard the last few shots where the weight of beans (or lack thereof) are affecting the grind (report this data because it's interesting, too!).
For the control, store beans in the bag or vented storage container and fill the hopper of same grinder (or same model of grinder) each day, then after the day's shots have been pulled empty the hopper and return beans to storage bag.
Consider whether also to discard the first few grams of beans ground each day.
Also suggest use of beans that are not recently roasted (a typical use case). I would suggest beans that are at least a week from roast, and preferably 2 to 4 weeks. This will reduce the effect of rapid off gassing of recently roasted beans while maintaining a more typical end-use case.
It's a 5 to 7 day experiment. If the hopper will hold a full pound of coffee (e.g. Eureka Atom grinder), then do that. This will give a few extra days of run for the experiment.
Yes. A good quality single dose grinder would be the answer to this. However, most of us don't have single-dosers and are not about to buy one!
So, ideally, if one is buying large wholesale quantities for long term personal use, best bet is to split it into smaller bags and store them in a freezer? While using one bag, the next one is resting and stabilizing out of the freezer. And so forth ...
That's not a bad strategy, but once you open a bag/container that's been in the freezer, don't put it back in there. The cold beans will attract condensation which can wreak havoc on them, especially if re-frozen.
Personally, if I were buying large wholesale amounts and I wasn't single-dosing, I would let the entire batch rest before putting it in the freezer, then dose out a few days to a week's worth of beans into small mason jars (less wasteful than bags). When I'm out of beans, I'd take one jar out, let it thaw, then use it up until I need more.
AJ
Whole Latte Love Great video AJ! Perfect timing as I’ve been thinking about buying fresh roasted in 5lb bags instead of 12 oz bags. The whole ? about storage and will it extract properly was stopping me. I’m going to give it a whirl. I recommend that people keep those used one way valve 12oz bags to use for storage after taking out of the freezer. That’s how I’m going to do it, plus put them in a air vac container. Will take some time to get thru 5lbs.
What do you attribute the inconsistent swings to in the first few days? You said extraction, but what caused that difference in extraction time without any variables changing? Older beans cannot be an answer because then it stabilized towards the last 2 weeks
Fresh from roast, the beans are undergoing a lot of rapid changes to their structure and composition. In particular, there is a lot of CO2 trapped inside the bean that will cause inconsistency if not allowed to partially degass before brewing.
AJ
Curious, when you say "Day 1" was that from roast date? I ask because in my workflow, where I order direct from a roaster, I find that the bean starts tasting and reacting the best on Day 5 from roast date. Any attempt to use it earlier, and the beans are still doing some major off-gassing, and any attempt to dial in a grind on Day 1-4 will yield very wild results in the following days (sometimes I had to grind it finer, sometimes coarser, but also the amount of dial-turning was relatively large). But if I dial in on Day 5, it stays pretty consistent throughout the week I use the beans, with me just having to minutely grind finer every day. I use a Ceado 37S with the upgraded worm gear similar to what you have, and a 1st gen Vetrano V2B dual boiler with PID. Also, I have a bean hopper that has a lot of airspace above it. I found that putting a piece of Saran wrap on top of the beans, which then went down as I ground throughout the week, made the final day or two worth of shots still pretty consistent, whereas prior to doing that, those last two days were pretty noticeably worse than the previous 5 days.
Hi Carlo, when I'm referring to days in the video, it's days into the experiment, so "day 1" is actually 5 days from roast. It sounds like we're experiencing similar things (wild swings early on, then stabilizing), just at a different rate. Could be a result of different beans, environments, equipment, storage methods, or any number of factors.
AJ
Marc always asks us to subscribe. Sadly, even though he is supremely awesome, I did not. It took this video for me to subscribe. :-)! Awesome job :-)! as a science teacher, I am going to use this video my first day back into class to break the ice with my students and to show them that science is embedded into hobbies that they may not have even thought about. LOL. Thank you so much! Apologies if anything is written incorrectly, using voice to text.
That's awesome! As a former professor myself, I know how important breaking the ice that first day is. Glad I can help be a part of it!
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage Holey canoley! No way! That's probably why you used such specific vernacular, lol. I really hope you upload more videos :)! Marc is amazing, don't get me wrong. But you were just a thrill to learn from, too :)!
@@freezingsunbreaka Haha! I taught film production, so a bit different, but coffee and science are hobbies so why not combine all three? Thanks again for the kind words. And I agree that Marc is "supremely awesome" and an amazing source of knowledge. I wouldn't have learned 90% of what I know without him around.
AJ
I don’t understand why the extraction time continued changing … can someone explain?
Hi dd, Fresh beans have a lot more CO2 locked up in them. As they age, they off-gas which changes timing.
@@Wholelattelovepage So if you hold grind size, pressure, temperature, tamp pressure, water volume, and dosage grams constant, you’re saying that the bean’s age is the only factor changing extraction time?
@@dandan1364 that is correct.
is this mean that if we have different shot doesnt always mean the grinder have bad consistency? Some people I know talk about my grinder inconsistent while they dont actually use it and I make a better shot than theirs.
Hey it, Thanks for the question. Does not mean grinder has bad consistency. As beans age or other variables change grind size needs to be adjusted. Grind size is never set and forget!
@@Wholelattelovepage for me, I always adjust grind size dosing, and tamping based on what I see in previous cup, so I always get better shot compared to that friend
I thought you were supposed to wait 10-14 days from roasting day to start using the beans. Whats the point of pulling shots with unripe coffee beans?
Hi m, Thanks for the comment. You do not have to wait 10-14 days. Many opinions of course but real point of video was to show how extractions changed over time.
Can I get a copy of your extraction log, please?
Dear WLL. I purchased a drying cabinet that can set humidity from 5-60%. What humidity setting would you recommend for coffee bean storage?
That's a good question and I'm not actually sure the answer. A quick Google search yields results anywhere from 11% to 60%. I would imagine lower is better, but is there a tipping point? I'm not sure.
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage : thanks AJ.
When I bought my gaggia brera last summer, I bought two different types of beans, and one of them left in the cupboard till this spring when I decided to try it and I kid you not, it tasted just as good as the fresh stuff I bought right after. It was in the original bag but I was very surprised how good it tasted and how much Crema I got from it. I think some people that have been in this a long time are just a little bit too critical. I've learned that a lot of things experts say are blown way out of proportion and it's really not that critical for good tasting espresso
Hey Square Hammer, Thanks for sharing your experience. We've long said that certain blends from commercial roasters can last a LONG time in the original bag. Do you mind sharing what kind of beans you were using?
AJ
@@Wholelattelovepage yeah no problem. The brand was caribou Coffee, mahogany blend. I've always liked the dark roast for espresso and I know it's bad for the Super Auto machines but that's the one brand I found that it works perfect in and doesn't hurt the machine. I just clean my grinder out regularly but I honestly don't have a problem with it. Bought my machine from you guys last year and I couldn't be happier. Customer service couldn't be better either. I appreciate you guys