APTERA Vid 2 Part 2 Reid is Done
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Part two of Reid's forced appearance is a bit short, but fortunately this morning I watched Hillbilly Bill's silly video on the brand new lower control arms and noticed they were completely different from the ones in his latest frame depiction. I figured I could give you a couple more minutes of entertainment if I showed you them together. It's more relevant than the solar on the travel trailer.
The absence of facts makes the car lighter and hence more efficient :) Thanks!
Interesting that there seems to be no efficiency in using funds, extraordinarily large empty building, seemingly under utilised staff, frequent trips overseas on business, paying for media staff to travel to france to exhibit a singular frame, paying for sandy munroe to visit carbon maker in italy.......quite bizzare situation.
@@namenotshown9277 And not one day driving around southern California displaying the trike while measuring miles/kWh. Even the In & Out run could have ended with a recharge to measure kWh used.
@@artsmith103 That's an excellent point. The trip to get hamburgers was around 8 miles. It would have been easy to show the trike didn't use one full kWh if the 10 miles per kWh is to be believed.
@@JoeBManco Yes, and those with hybrid experience know that technology improves mpg about 30%. So if Aptera doesn't have regenerative braking yet, they should get 7.5 miles/kWh with a claim hoping for 10 miles/kWh after the improvement. But no....
@@artsmith103 Right now I have zero experience with hybrids or EV cars. I am still waiting for an economy car sized EV to be made by any US auto maker. If they made an EV that looks like a 1970-78 AMC Gremlin, I would get that. Aptera, for a time, represented a compromise. After watching them lie and waste time, they are no longer a consideration.
They release new frame and suspension schematics in the June 2024 webinar but even those do not fully match what they posted to twitter. I do enjoy how many parts for Production Intent builds are not from the Production Intent suppliers but just more one off creations.
So the hillbilly didn't use the latest frame? Typical.
Looks like they are using a 400v system in the test mules, if you go to this video
czcams.com/video/if81LYYWwoY/video.html
at the 2:27 mark, you can see a fairly clear shot of a screen gives some live data.
There is a green rectangle in the middle ( with big D letter under it), just to the right you have the battery voltage at rest seems to be around 400v, driving it drops down to 351v I can read at one stage.
To the far right , top number I believe is max cell voltage, and below that lowest cell voltage,
at 2: 27 they read 3.71v max and 3.50v lowest. I was hoping there might be some instantaneous whr but cant read what the other values are.
Along the bottom you have temperature of the 6 modules, then three numbers in bottom right which I"m not sure what they are, one might be wh/mile no idea really.
Anyhow you can see the voltage of the battery drops down quite alot when accelerating.
I'm guessing one of the three unknown numbers will probably be amp draw.
This screen also pops up in another vehicle in another of the videos by the guy who posted it, there are 3 vids, might be clearer view. Anyhow might be some folks interested to get some live data info...........its what we need!
edit: I think amp draw is bottom left ( there is a bar graph constantly changes at bottom, appears to be amp draw, with the numbers on left side of the bar graph. Knowing volts and amps you can get quite a bit of info, more than ever before!
Maybe if we can speed at same time we will be onto something. Maybe one of the three unknown numbers is speed.......getting interesting.
Here's something interesting, it might be the case that arcimotor trikes were costing around $60,000usd to build, and sold at around $20,000usd, if that is true then cost of building an aptera will almost certainly be much higher than arcimotor three wheelers ( now gone bust).
Arcimotors really did well and produced alot of vehicles, and high quality at that it appears.
So looking at Aptera using a company that makes carbon fibre parts for high end race cars to make their cabins ( binks?) wont be cheap, then freight them to usa, not cheap. Solar panels with shaped glass etc, not cheap. Bespoke parts, circuit boards, motors, batteries etc etc.
I'm guessing somewhere between $80,000-$100,000 to make on of these apteras at low production numbers, none of the small investors wanting a cheap solar car are going to pay that ( they've already been conned by being told somewhere around $20,000 or just over per vehicle). The costs of solar race cars are rediculous, huge amounts put into them.
So will they have to sell below cost ( assuming arcimotor was doing that), just to prove they can produce them and get more money via going onto the stock market once they prove they can make and sell the aptera. Then its arcimotor all over again, but worse.
I think that the only real chance they have of becoming revenue positive, it to make individual hand made cars and sell at rediculous prices, Musk did it that way, which you have to admit is somewhat sensible more realistic approach.
Sorry for rant.
I saw the $60K vs $20K reference in a recent video of car guys that tested one and disassembled it. Where did you see the $60K number? Even $30K manufactured cost would spell doom for Aptera.
No need to apologize. The point has relevance.
Rant away all you want. Your comparison of Arcimoto to Aptera is well worth saying. Aptera fans will say and have said, "Arcimoto is nothing like Aptera aside from both having 3 wheels." It goes beyond that. Aptera is even more complicated and there is no way it will turn a profit at $35,000 per vehicle. Arcimoto learned very quickly that their factory was not up to the task of mass production and cost containment. They had to give up after making fewer than 1000 vehicles. Aptera will learn the same lesson before long. There is no way they will be able to sustain production, assuming they even make it that far.
@@JoeBManco Regarding complexity, it's a great comparison of finished Arcimoto being disassembled vs Aptera stringing a wire between stickers. I don't know how to estimate if Aptera is 1 or 2 yrs away, ignoring the money issues.
@@artsmith103 You must have watched the Rich Rebuilds Arcimoto video. Aptera's wiring is just madness. On the other hand, it looked like Arcimoto had a well thought out vehicle. They must have hired senior engineers instead of engineering interns. It is too bad they just couldn't get production up and costs down.
Another feature the two companies have in common is paying Sandy Munro to optimize the factory. It makes me question just how helpful Sandy really is. Maybe he is just a "snake oil salesman" to other "snake oil salesmen."
Chris "CoolChuckle" M. becomes more annoying with each passing month.
I question what job he'll ever get after his Aptera stint ends.
He better enjoy this while it lasts.
It is a very strange collection of employees. Little to no vehicle operating/fabrication aptitude demonstrated.
If an actual manufacturer had hired a portion of this team to crowdfund/promote, you would have seen an entirely different past 2 years.
By you have a crowdfunding team with no understanding of proper product development or manufacturing.
Steve from AOC used the expression “you don’t know what you don’t know” in reference to Aptera’s need to expect/handle eventualities.
What the fans do not get is that Team Aptera has openly demonstrated that they don’t get the product part virtually at all. Less than 5% and I’m being kind.
I honestly thought they would continue the Beta effort on to the balance of the system.
But they just flatlined on system development.
Short version: They are not building PI’s because they’re in any real way prepared for it, they’re doing it because customers and investors demand it.
This next 6 months will be brutal if they stay on this path.
The only hope they have is if some investor or maybe US Capital demands that they get a real development/manufacturing team in there and the promotional group gets the f out of the way.
They talk $65 mil to production. This group will go through that like water with nothing you would ever want to own in sight.
Their #1 problem isn’t money, it’s what they’re not doing with the money.
It’s ignorance, pure and simple.
Definitely not a Baywatch lifesaver.
The new A-arm looks radically different than what was shown before. I guess that means more testing at the track and another year delayed. William ("Hillbilly Bill") even talked about the 1,000,000 miles the PI will drive before customer vehicles are made. He apparently doesn't realize the amount of time that would take. For one Aptera to reach 1-million miles it would have to drive 24-hours per day for 695 days at a constant speed of 60-miles-per-hour. Add in time for charging, bathroom breaks, time to eat and sleep, and any potential repairs and it would take 3 years to test a vehicle for 1,000,000 miles. They would need a crew to follow it and I doubt the Chevy flatbed truck pulling a Polydrop Travel Trailer is going to be adequate.
The suspension is done just like the Elphae in hub motors. I really get tired of people posting that Elphae in hub motors is not going to happen. Aptera has told us for years that it's a done deal. Aptera is a transparent company and in no way would they ever lie to us about an important part.
Add to this, the frame is done installed and already been crash tested. Again, mid year for crash testing. It's just a fact. On Monday they will release the results of the three Pi builds that were for this. Trust me, they will show us the results. If not, then I'll just change the date to something else as they are making an even safer Aptera.
- - superfan
@@billsmith5960 LOL, I am enjoying your superfan posts today. If you've been following my post about the 1,000,000 miles, three of the superfans have interesting solutions. It is too bad they don't see the flaws in their solutions. My favorite bad idea was putting the trike on some sort of treadmill. The other two suggested multiple vehicles will take part in the 1-million-mile-challenge. That is a flawed idea for multiple reasons. If they used 10 vehicles, that only proves the trike is capable of 100K. Secondly, there isn't enough time for that and starting production in late 2025. Thirdly, let's be honest, they are never building 10 PI vehicles if they can't finish one by now.
I'm curious on your real opinion on the A-arms. Why didn't they go with tube steel A-arms like any number of Mustang II kits out there? The billet aluminum just looks like a fracture waiting to happen. Welded tube steel is faster to make, probably lighter, and faster to build over milling a aluminum billet A-arm.
@@JoeBManco - That's a cast aluminum control arm. It's a prototype unit and a major design change when it comes to the bushings and the arm seems to be quite beefy. The rear bushing went from a UFO design to a traditional. I have no idea why this late in the game they did that. As for the front bushing, it's not in there, so I don't know if they went with another mounting method as compared to the old one.
Hopefully, Aptera in their million miles of testing, will drive that thing into a curb and see if the arm is sacrificial, thus bends and saves the pickup points like regular cars do today.
On a similar theme, the stubby shocks at the extreme opposite ends of the control arms to the heavy wheel/motors can't handle the forces and will not save the trike from losing control at highway speeds. Both way too short and poorly positioned.
@@billsmith5960 In the picture the aluminum looked too shiny to be cast, but you're right it is. I am used to seeing cast aluminum for aircraft that is a darker grey than that. I know this, the more I look at the Aptera I am no longer interested in owning one if they ever did build it. I worry about total loss of control if someone so much as bumps the front suspension considering how wide it is reported to be.
Video testing temperatures of maxeon gen III cells here
czcams.com/video/p7N-tNQNtNM/video.html
Around 130degC ( 50degC approx )should be maybe just a little higher for aptera ( thicker glass layer above and below slows cooling). Das is hot.
Test done in Sedona usa and in april appears full sun, air temp he says was 80degf or 28degC,
Some things to note:
roof cells: 2 lots 110w....expect 220watts output.....192watts measured
So can assume aptera should have similar non-max output its about 13% lower than expected.
ground cells: 2 lots 115watts....expect 230watts.....187watts measured
thats 19% lower than expected, so maybe close to 1/5 of the output is lost somehow, the max is using the cell data like aptera does, cell data in lab conditions.
Since aptera has fibreglass below and thin flexible glass above the cells, with very tight bonding, the cooling might be less in the above video. When vehicle is moving maybe some air cooling of glass surface, but rate of heat flow is limiting factor for cooling since cells are tightly encapsulated. Another reason their 700watts will be way over-estimate of power.
Not what you would want on a vehicle.
@@aussieideasman8498 I guess some of the heat of the cells will travel inward into the vehicle. That might cause issues in summer, not sure, but it will have some effect.
since this video relates to solar, I'll put some solar info on this page.
Just for my own amusement have decided to work out how much solar they can output.
My guess is when you work it all out, it will be the exact maximum the cells are capable of producing under ideal sun of 1kw per sqm. I'll also guess that they use the no load figures for the maxeon cells.
( no load or short circuit values for current are unachievable in reality as the current goes down as soon as you put the cells into a load....i.e a battery or mppt converter)....thats my guesses.
It will take a while to work it all out, so have started by counting the number of cells they are using.
This video
czcams.com/video/JD6ES183knI/video.html
shows a nice render at the 2:44 mark, so will use that render to do some calculations.
Just for a start...number of cells used:
Hatch ( rear fold up bit): 93 cells
Roof: 50cells
Dash: 20cells
Hood ( front): 30cells
7 strings in total
3 strings of 31 cells in hatch
2 strings of 25 cells in roof
1 string of 20 cells in dash
1 string of 30 cells in hood
Next calculation what values to use for max volts and current of each cell.
Will use maxeon data of highest values of 0.626v per cell and 6 amps per cell
( there are various different values but this will theoretical best case)
hatch: 31 cells in series gives 19.4v. Times by 6amp and 3 lots of strings gives 349watts
roof: 25 cells in series gives 15.6v. Times 6 amp and 2 lots of strings gives 188watts.
dash: 20cells in series gives 12.5v. Times 6amps just 1 string gives 75watts
hood: 30 cells in series gives 18.8v. Times 6amps just 1 string gives 112watts
Total is 724watts. So there you go just a quick calculation of what is theoretically possible but realistically unachievable for many reasons. Note its done quickly so maybe errors but will be in the ball park figures.
Just a rough summary:
hatch: 350w, roof 190w, dash 75w, hood 112w = approx 700watts
So certainly achievable under idealised conditions, the voltages need to be changed to charge the batteries of course, and some mppt losses etc. So I think you could say they have used the maxeon data to get this figure of 700watts
Also I'm not sure of the cell sizes, the cell output data I used are from maxeon and are for the 3.75watt cells ( seems to be the current best cells)........this is quick rough calculation
I notice people are seeing more suspicious things and commenting, yet no fanboys or ambassadors are found defending the silly trike. It's all one-way thinking here - Aptera is almost finished (not in a good way). LoL
If they made the panels for their own vehicles why would they not film themselves doing it or at least take pictures of panels in the molds? There is zero proof they made the panels in that warehouse. AOC must be truly dense to have not thought about how panels in the shade would react. Aptera would be even more incompetent than we know them to be if they had not done so as well. The guy who did most of the work has been gone since May 2023 and he left a not so complimentary review on glassdoor
Polydrop is so small as to be irrelevant. They may have not even sold a hundred trailers and they are very expensive. The base model shown with panels is thirty thousand and goes over forty thousand when optioned up. Averest is a very small privately held company with what amounts to a small contract with Delta at only one airport per their own website. Neither company has mentioned Aptera yet.
Polydrop is an industry leader and everyone knows it. When you say, "Polydrop" everyone knows what you are saying. I'll put them on the level as like Ford or Toyota. The millions of panels they are making for them right now is literally going to fund the company. This is why we have been told that the IP is so valuable. If Polydrop was a no name brand and not relevant, Aptera would just walk away.
remember, Delta Airlines has gone with Aptera to make and convert all of their tuggers and baggage handlers to solar. More of that IP value.
Nobody ever found out if the airport tug with that number had solar on it. I'm pretty sure it didn't.
@@aussieideasman8498 it was a render, I note the yellow robot arm in the 'factory' has been sitting there doing nothing for a very long time, it appears in older videos too.
Maybe its a showpiece, look we have a robotic arm, it could do many many things.
Just one more thing, that video that had the flatbed truck following, the young guy said tell Jerry we are leaving just before they left,
at the 3 sec mark we get to see the mysterious Jerry, flatbed truck driver I assume and all round tech guy when things go wrong in this video
czcams.com/video/if81LYYWwoY/video.html
Being a fan of In-N-Out, I would always agree with bringing a truck.
Jealous East Coast guy here…
Ok managed to find another video with the solar data on display being shown, its not very useful, apart from getting some numbers as it doesn't show how the vehicle is sitting in the sun, but you can see sun in the reflection on the screen so can assume its sunny day in carlsbad, and you guessed the numbers are not good again:
hood: 35watts dash: 8watts
and we get a total of 43watts
Now isn't that interesting, that is exactly what it was showing in the abu dhabi video in my last post. So once again using the same data we can see its once again 22% of the estimated maximum watts.
Its almost 5 times lower than what they are saying, closer to 20% than 25%, either way their output is extremely low.
Video is here, at the 9 min 41 sec
czcams.com/video/DDmeqLEB9c0/video.html
This is second video that has same power output in the sun, if I find a third one with approx same values again, i'm going to be thinking these are near maximum output of the cells in alpha.
I calculated a while ago using beta proto type data, that power to just move the vehicle is about 700watts on smooth flat concrete at 2km/hr( from a video), and that worked out to somewhere around 10miles range if I remember correctly if you used that solar energy over 8 hours.
But now if it is the case that the wattage of the solar panels is somewhere around 25% of what they are predicting, that would mean when the video linked above was taken the max range gained would be 2.5miles or so. Anyhow my guess is they will never ever ever show watts from solar panels on purpose when aptera is in the sun, because the numbers are looking absolutely disastrous. I think I can see why they are not showing the actual numbers achieved.
If their numbers are so far fetched on the solar side, we can only imagine the wh/km or wh/mile will also be grossly exaggerated.
It's possible the numbers are the same because it doesn't read power - it is just a static page. As far as I know Alpha's never had working solar; they just plastered cells on the body to make it look like it had it.
@@aussieideasman8498 No its a live display, you can see the numbers change as it goes around the track at abu dhabi, they could of course manipulate the software to get results they want, but they got crank sofware to do the code, so they would have to go back to them to modify it.
The watts are useful to know, should be pretty accurate it looks like, the 'miles per day' readout will be based on their wh/km over-estimate, so it wont mean much I'm guessing. But I think 43watts was 2 miles range per day from solar on screen , and that will be the max or over-estimate with wh/km they input, so you can almost certainly say it will be lower than 2 miles anyhow. Whatever the real numbers they dont look good when you factor in their over-estimates and assumptions they make.
There is a very good reason they dont show the watts of the solar on their videos.
If they were good numbers they would splash that screen all over the place.
Sorry Aussie ideas man for so much info, but might be an opportunity here to get some real data,
this other video from same guy
czcams.com/video/1RRGYPCfLJw/video.html
At the 1:25 mark, shows same screen i different vehicle whilst at rest. Can see max cell voltage 4.00v, min cell voltage 3.99v, and battery voltage 392v. So we know its 400v approx on these cars so far.
The three unknown values are all on zero, but I cant read what they say underneath, will try some zooming and copy/paste see if I can work out what they are.
If can get volts/amps/speed could be very interesting to work out some other values.
The info is not just for me, but for anyone who is interested. I just provide the platform where you can share.
@@aussieideasman8498 Thanks, I hope someone else watches the video I linked, its probably not an off the shelf display, but you never know. One other thing that display shows, there is a bar graph at the bottom, its two different blue bars, top one shows regen amps, bottom one shows motor amp draw.
A little more research shows Crank Software is the company that did Apteras dashboar display board software, yup outsourced it to someone else, even though they are saying they are now a software company.
Anyhow crank software does make bms display boards, and I'm guessing they also did the display board shown in the video I linked at start of this thread ( this is part of their speciality).
Just spent a bit of time looking at the video I linked before ( linked again )
czcams.com/video/if81LYYWwoY/video.html
I think I have worked out what all the data is. Here we go:
Top right: highest and lowest voltage cells at any given time for example when drawing max amps ( over 300amps, you get 3.46v and 3.17...highest and lowest cell voltage at any time of all the packs)
Interestingly the cell temps are in degC ( not F), and the speed seems to be in km/hr .
Bottom bar graph at left shows amps with an "A" next to it, bar graph changes as amps change, there are some vertical divisions which I think might be 100amp divisions but not sure on that.
Theres regen brake amps above motor amps.
Near Centre green rectangular have battery voltage on right, and battery state of charge on left ( at start its 77% and 387v)....note with regen active voltage goes up to 400v or just over.
So I've gone over it again and can gain some info from it.
When they reverse out its 2amp draw and 387v pack voltage multiplying gives: 774 watts.
So can say with confidence it takes over the solar pack voltage to just make the aptera move on smooth flat concrete. Maybe 1amp might just get it slightly moving.
A bit more info just to break up the posts a bit:
I've written down quite a bit of data at different times, basically when the camera picks up the display clearly.
You could probably extract some interesting info from this one short video and a bit of maths. I'll just give an examples of data that is visible at one instance:
127amp ( motor) 360v ( pack voltage) 3.56v ( lowest cell) speed 39km/hr
It appears max current draw is around 334amps ( highest I could see clearly), at that time battery voltage was 334volts ( by coincidence) giving max power of 111kw approx before losses of course. So I'm guessing a 110kw total for the two hub motors ( assuming beta has two front hubs?) Beta is the green open atpera.
Near the end the vehicle accelerates to approx 110km/hr, seems its fairly constant accel at max amps, using the time of that acceleration might be able to work out some other stats.
Anyhow I do believe we finally have some actually real data or as good as we are going to get at the moment.
enough for now. This probably doesn't help to calculate efficiencies would have to think more on that but its a start.
So the abu dhabi video showing solar output goes like this:
czcams.com/video/8a2wVOuGWbY/video.html
Hood and dash solar output using maxeon cell data is:
dash: 20cells in series gives 12.5v. Times 6amps just 1 string gives 75watts
hood: 30 cells in series gives 18.8v. Times 6amps just 1 string gives 112watts
Thats 187watts total possible, so why are they only getting 43 watts which is about
20% of the maximum possible ( 22% exact).
Since aptera will not show any real world data, the only thing is to use test drive data,
there is no other choice, so lets say the real world solar figures are 1/4 of what aptera are saying ( thats being generous in the video above), that would mean the 40 mile max range is actually 1/4 that, about 10miles range........can only go on this real world data from video above.
If that is the case then aptera is absolutely making false claims about solar alone range,
and investors should be aware of this.
They have always made false claims about production dates, but I think they make false claims about wanting to produce at all, and have done so since 2006.
So here is a solar 'expert' from aptera, saying that the 700watts is only 'theoretical maximum" at the 21:08 mark ( note also a bit earlier he said that the solar cells can come in whatever colour they want!!!! not just black..........got to have a laugh.
czcams.com/video/8KZDZRHOx70/video.html
Well installed solar rarely even has a moment of rated output. It's just a number that goes into the performance calculation. Array rating, compass angle, tilt angle, clouds/humidity, temperature, elec conversion efficiency, etc.
And that's just for the best moment, then you have annual weather forecast which I have found extremely accurate. My array is +/- 5%/yr from forecasted. Months are +/- 10%. My 3.3kW array has had only a few 15 minute interval full rated output performance in 5.5yrs.
That is so funny. He said when talking about the solar roof panel at the 18:50 mark, "Right now we are focused on black panels... but we can make the panels whatever color... we can make them clear... white." Then Audra jumps in and says, "We can have some fun rainbow..." (I couldn't hear what else she said.) He goes on to say they've "screen printed on them."
Even newly minted solar "experts" get the "theoretical maximum" thing wrong. He likely meant it's the "rated" maximum. The rated value is usually referenced to what is known as "Standard Test Conditions" (STC). STC is 1000 w/m^2 irradiance at a spectrum defined by Air Mass 1.5G and a CELL temperature of 25 C. Between the STC irradiance and cell temperature, rated Pmax is generally always higher than what one would see under more typical conditions. Also, with respect to the color comments he and she made, they were talking about the options for the BACKGROUND color not the solar cell colors. The background color is dependent on the back sheet used. White is commonly used but black is typical for residential solar panels. By far the majority of solar panels I've made use a clear backsheet.
@@johnreeves7261 That might all sound intimidating but the whole derating fudge factor is wrapped into the published solar calendar that inputs: location, array geometry, array max rating, and typical elec efficiency. An array with good angles and conversion equipment typically sees 4-5 peak equivalent hrs per day, 365 avg. Seattle, Michigan do worse. Phoenix and Las Vegas do better. And for sure there is a measurable difference between 4.25 and 4.75. That will be location specific (zip code) for otherwise similar arrays.
@@artsmith103 You've basically made the same error as our newly minted solar "expert". It's not "array max rating". For PVWatts, for example, it's "DC System Size". Basically it's the STC rated power. Incidentally, hes' not wrong. When added up, Aptera's 189 individual solar cells do come to ~700 watts (at STC).