Solar MPPT Charge Controller vs DC to DC Boost Converter, which is Better for Solar Charging?
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- This video highlights the experiment to compare the performance of a solar MPPT charge controller to a constant current DC-DC boost converter. In this experiment, our DIY constant current DC-DC power supply was used to emulate the characteristics of a typical solar panel as a current limited and fluctuating power source.
We will be repeating this experiment in the summer with an actual solar panel so as to achieve more convincing results.
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Thank you for this experiment !
Thank you for the great feedback.
I appreciate it.
👍👍
The Innovati0n Lab💥
I had a misunderstanding in my mind for so long for both devices, thanks for the video
YW, glad to help.
Sehr gut erklärt und es ist nachvollziehbar. Langsam erklärt und gezeigt. Top! 👍
Thanks a lot for the great feedback.
Much appreciated!
👍👍
The Innovati0n Lab 💥
www.theinnovati0nlab.com
Loved it, great info, now a video that compare the DC to DC vs an electric bike controller plz. You can do so many mods on your ebike with the cheap boost converter. 👍
Thanks for the wonderful feedback.👍👍👍
I have added your suggestion to my bucket list for future project ideas.
Just know that the list is long....hahaha.
Our videos are not like vlog style videos. They are essentially recorded projects/experiments, extremely time-consuming and difficult to make.
However, stay tuned.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab💥
www.theinnovati0nlab.com
This video was intended to be a fun experiment to show the differences in function between an MPPT solar charge controller and a constant current DC-DC boost converter. I have received a lot of questions regarding this subject and I decided to perform this experiment to help answer those questions. I realize that the experiment is not perfect and there were some mistakes. However, I intend to repeat the experiment with actual solar panels this coming summer. Stay tuned!
Please share your wonderful comments, questions, and suggestions as usual.
Thanks a lot for watching!
I've been using buck converter for solar too for years now. I only use them for a really small set-up (200w to 300w panel size). What I've noticed is they performed very similar if not better than a pwm on the same array.
The buck converter always manage to keep the voltage constant but the power fluctuate depending on the amount of power the panel is producing.
Thanks a lot for the great feedback. Actually, this is on my to-do list. I will make the time to test out the buck converters I already have. I do have high hopes that the constant current buck converters will perform appreciably well.
Basically, my end objective is to find a cheaper alternative to the expensive MPPT charge controllers out there.
I am not expecting a $12 buck converter to outperform an MPPT charge controller, but if we get a reasonable performance, I will accept it as a win!
Thanks again, I appreciate you sharing your experience with our community.
Can you make the video about this? I can not find any cheap mppt for my 100w panel
@@chinhchinh6265
Mppt with 100w panel, not Worth it... The voltage will be too low to get any reasonable advantage
@Yangmist3r Do you think I can wire that DC/DC boost converter from alternator(or starter battery) to MPPT PV INPUT instead of the battery input??? In voltage boost mode??? Go from 12-15.3V to 36-42.1V???
Oh yeah pmw is joke. Drops the voltage down to battery voltage and does nothing with the extra current. The buck converter and mppt controler work basically the same as each other. Lower the voltage to battery voltage which gives extra current used to change the battery
Great video. Most of the MPPT is basically smart buck converter (typical MPPT spec require the PV input Voltage to be about 5V higher than the battery Voltage) that converts high PV panel Voltage low current to battery charging Voltage and high current.
You should do the experiment with PV panel with one of your buck converter @1:05 to see what you get as long as the Voc of the PV panel does not exceed the max input Voltage of that buck converter.
I use the same boost converter, I got it for $22 with free shipping to US, to boost the 12V LifePO4 to around 24V to charge my Bluetti EB70 and it also extend the run time of the EB70.
Thanks a lot for such great feedback, friend! 👍
I like the idea of experimenting with a constant current buck converter as well. I intend to do more solar batrery charging reviews and tests in the future.
- Buck converter vs. solar MPPT
- PWM vs. MPPT, etc
Stay tuned.
Thanks again!
👍👍🙏
"""converts high PV panel Voltage low current to battery charging Voltage and high current.""" is not only this.
the mppt use "perturbed and observe" to find the voltage of max power is possible. this voltage is only one. above this voltage the power drop drastically. under this voltage also drop. to make this, controller module the resistance of load to increase and decrease the panel voltage to stay at maximum power voltage. this voltage changes are more than 1 time per second. the dc dc conversion is a consequence of mppt working
I have that EPever 20A controller in my camper van, its connected to a (recycled) 250w panel and during the summer I had more electricity than I could use! I was charging drill batteries to use up the excess power when the van wasn't in use during the week. The setup used 2x 110ah lead acid batteries which were great but now they have degraded significantly. I want to build a 24v 18650 'leisure' battery pack to replace them this summer, would you go with 7s or 6s? I already have a ton of cells from e-bike batteries which I sourced cheaply.
Thanks for the video's the ones about the boost / buck converters were particularly interesting.
Thanks a lot for watching this video and for leaving us such remarkable feedback. Honestly, this type of input and success story is exactly what keeps this channel going!
👏👍
Regarding your question, I honestly have not done an extensive test on the Epever MPPT charge controller, using other battery chemistries/types like LiFePO4 or Lithium-Ion.
I do have my DIY 24V LiFePO4 pack here in my lab, and I intend to put it to the test with an actual solar panel, soon.
However, my recommendation will be that you consider making your battery design an 8S Lithium phosphate pack. My reason will be that LiFePO4 packs are usually easy replacements for 12/24V lead-acid battery systems because of the similarity in their respective nominal and charging voltage levels.
Breakdown:
The nominal voltage for a fully charged 24V lead-acid battery is about 25.4V.
Similarly, the nominal voltage of a fully charged 8S Lithium phosphate is about (8*3.2) = 25.6V.
My theory is that since the Epever MPPT charge controller charges a 24V lead-acid battery very efficiently, my intuition says that it will also give comparable results with an 8S lipo pack......but let me put that theory to the test first, and I will get back to you 🙂.
Looking forward to the solar panel video
Thanks a lot for watching our video!
👍👍
I appreciate the wonderful feedback. Stay tuned for the follow-on video, my friend!
If you use one boost controller with lower power and a buck with high power you have a MPPT controller. What you are lacking is the microcontroller switching between them as per the solar input. What you gain with the boost is just a marginal energy at dawn and dusk but also when it is a little bit cloudy. If it rains you won’t get anything. The microcontroller ensures that you don’t damage your batteries, very important if you have expensive lithium ones.
Wonderful feedback!👍👍
You have great points.
I have had it in my bucket list to build a microcontroller drive MPPT charge controller.
The boost or Buck contofiguration also depends on the required charing voltage of your battery bank with respect to your solar arrays voltage.
MPPT charge controllers are primarily designed with the buck converter topology to allow for a very wide input voltage range.
I hope this makes sense to you.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab💥
www.theinnovati0nlab.com
I enjoyed that test! Good work.
Thanks a lot, friend!
We appreciate your wonderful feedback. Stay tuned for the follow-on video.
👍👍
Im using a few buck converter, i get around 90-97% efficiency, depending on heat & amps. I adjust amps sometimes on the potentiometer if the weather is very good. I do need to expand it a bit so it can handle more amps while only warm instead of hot. They drain a low ah buffer battery into a larger 12v system, usually at 4-500watt. The buffer is fed by a mppt.
I am planning to do a test with a buck converter as well. But I am waiting until we get some significant sunlight in my location.
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. We need more people like you in our community. Please, we would appreciate it if you could share our videos to help this channel grow.
Brilliant video. Really well explained and presented. Fascinating for hobby types or experienced users. I'm thinking of using my 1800w boost converter to replace my existing DIY dump load controller ( for a wind turbine ). I just don't like the idea of my batteries and turbine depending on electro mechanical coils clicking away, sometime hundred of times a day. I use the well known A30 voltage control switch ( ebay £10-15 ) to switch a high amperage 12v/60A coil relay ( ebay £8-£12 ). But coils will eventually fail or contacts will stick/weld up. But!....I do however have a 1800w boost converter just like yours, just sitting on the shelf. Perhaps I could use this to dump excess current when my battery volts rises to about 14.6. ( there's a little potentiometer for min operating voltage on the boost converter ). Better than spending several hundred £ on a tristar/Midnite/Intervolt. I've searched high and low on Aliexpress, Ebay for a long time and the only cheap possible alternative to handle good power looks like this boost converter. ( my wind turbine regularly puts out 800w to 1200w )
Hi friend!
This is wonderful, I am always excited to hear about projects like these.
👍👍
To be very honest, I have not done much wind energy projects. However, I believe that the concept is very relatable to other renewable energy systems. Your idea sounds very interesting and I would like to know if you are able to make it work.
Please share your findings.
My only comment will be that you should account for the fact that the constant current boost converter has a 30-40A current limit. This means that during the peak/surge yield of your windmill, the power output of the converter will be limited - as a function of the input voltage and current limit.
Hi friend,
Thanks again for the engagement.
However, there is nothing misleading in the setup. I was very transparent in the explanation as to why I had to change the battery configuration from parallel (12V, 24Ah) to series connection (24V, 12Ah). This was because I realized that the boost converter would not be suitable for charging a 12V battery, given the input voltage level we were using for the test.
I recognize that the test was not perfect and that there were some errors, and that was where I promised to make a follow-on video. I am redoing the experiment with real solar panels.
However, there was nothing misleading about changing the configuration from a 12V, 25Ah setting to a 24V, 12Ah setting - giving that a CC boost converter was used at the second phase.
In the end, the concept boils down to a transfer of energy from solar panels to a 12V or 24V battery system. What matters in the end is the question, "Which of the 2 systems does it more efficiently?"
Thanks again for the wonderful engagement.
👍👍
ive done alot of testing in this area and found its best to use the mppt unit and the converter together
with the mppt unit the conveter stays active longer when there is less solar input
Wonderful.
I am glad that it works for you that way.
i originally wanted to charge my 80 volt ebike ,but that was to big of an ask, ,
agreed. many channels produced videos of hooking convreters directly to panels which is only a quick and dirty solution. MPPT is the way to go then use converters to get the exact desired voltage.
Awesome video again! I have a question....Have you ever tried to use the 12v DC port from a portable power station to supply the input for the boost converter? (I tried and failed but maybe that was user error)? It didnt work for my MPPT booster either. But the solar panels directly made it work.... Wonder why the 12v dc jack can't be used as the source...
Hi friend!
This is quite interesting but a bit strange that it didn't work. However, you need to verify that your portable power station is producing a clean DC output and not AC due to some rectification issues. Also, you have to verify the rated output power capacity of this power station to make sure that it matches or possibly exceeds the load you are putting on either the boost converter or the MPPT controller.
Finally, as I mentioned in my videos, keep in mind that you can only get an output power of less than 360W from the boost converter due to the 30A current limit.
So if your load is greater than 360W and your input voltage is only 12V, your boost converter will not work.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 Thanks for the great expertise again. I think you nailed the problem: I was supplying too many amps @ 12v by using the DC output. I think the load was hungrier than the rated output of the power station! Cheers and have a good day.
Thanks for info
Hi friend!
Thanks a lot for the feedback.
👍
It would be nice to have a version of the CC converter that can have the output voltage and max current adjusted by an Arduino. In this way you can make a MPPT in software if you add a voltage and maybe current sensor to the board.
A programmatically adjustable board instead of pots will also allow to make a proper multistage lithium battery charger. Then if you combine your future SPWM inverter with a PLL to sync AC phase to mains AND a fast switchover between mains and inverter we have a UPS! Pls do!
I honestly like the way you think, my friend!
👍👍
Thanks a lot for the thoughtful suggestion.
I appreciate it.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 a DPX800S Boost converter have a MPPT function and on this moment a get 92 percent efficientie I boost from 27 Volt to 40 Volt 36 V battery system
@@theinnovati0nlab782 You can replace the potentiometers with programmable POTs that your Arduino can control. GreatScott did a video on precisely this. There are a couple of challenges depending on the boost converter voltage on the POTs. hard to find programmable POTs that like more than 50V
Perhaps you could add a simple window comparater type circuit controlling the booster's output with an electronically-controlled pot??
Hi friend!
Thanks a lot for the wonderful feedback. I like the way you think. When I get the time to revisit that test, I will give that a try. Hopefully, it will be simple to implement.
Thanks again!
👍👍
Just wondering do you think its possible to series the boost converter to scc to stabilize or boost the voltage coming from the solar panel and then feed it to the scc at double the voltage then process or convert the high voltage into amps by the mppt to extend the harvest in the afternoon or during cloudy days or even very early in the morning?
I always appreciate an outside the box way of thinking! 👏👏👏
Wonderful suggestion, but the problem is that the boost comverter is not really designed to work efficiently with fluctuating input power sources - such as a solar panel. So it during cloudy conditions, your system would probably shut down.
Secondly, cascading converters are never the best practice because you would insure horrible efficiencies due to power losses on both systems.
I hope this makes sense to you. Let me know what you think.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab 💥
@@theinnovati0nlab782 yes your theory is very right but if i can find a boost converter that can automatically adjust the output voltage based on the input voltage like for example if the input voltage is 20 volts the output voltage would increase to 40 volts, or 40 volts to 60 volts rather than constant to a certain output voltage bcoz youre right if i set the output constant voltage of the converter to 80volts then suddenly the solar panel voltage dropped to 20v the boost converter will shutdown or malfunction bcoz i set the output voltage too high.
I think the numbers issues is your load is not constant, when you reduced current to your MPPT, it adjusted the voltage down on the output to keep the current up. However, since the battery's demand depends on the voltage difference your current is not constant. I would re-try with some incandescent light bulbs as their demand will be directly proportional to the voltage making your calculations way easier. Thanks for this video!
Hi friend,
Thank you so much for such constructive feedback.👍👍
I agree that something funny was going on with the MPPT function of the charge controller when I lowered the current on the power supply. I am definitely going to repeat the test with an actual solar panel this weekend.
I got some good solar panels, all set up, and good to go! Stay tuned for the video, my friend!
Thanks again!
👏🙏
@@theinnovati0nlab782 Another thing a MPPT will do that a simple DC-DC buck/boost converter doesn't is try to ensure the voltage of the source doesn't collapse based on demand. The whole idea is they pull out the most power based on tracking, but if you exceed that power, a DC-DC boost converter would just drop out at some point when the voltage is pulled down but an MPPT should limit current limit based on the input power available to prevent that. I think your question is can you use a DC-DC buck/boost converter with solar, and the answer is yes but you want a floating input voltage and an constant output voltage; then the only thing to change on the output is current. A boost or buck regulator Once you have that the question becomes, what is your load and how do you manage those current limited scenarios. I am looking at this exact case for a small load using the MT3608 IC.
Well, thanks for sharing your personal opinion. I must say that this is the first time that I have been called out for explaining the concept presented my videos. Well, I am not really here to teach people how to mindlessly solder or connect wires together. If that is the type of content you are looking for then you are probably on the wrong channel.
I hope this helps.
👍😎
-The Innovati0n Lab
Hi , where do i get some of those battery cables ? The ones that are on the batteries ? I dont want to crimp ..
Those are 10 AWG tinned silicone wires. You can find them on eBay or Amazon.com.
👇👇👇
a.co/d/bjxC8P9
Right around 15:45, you say "does not EXCEED". What are you referring to? the voltage? Is that for fear of driving current backwards? which I'm also told does work, but haven't tested it. If that is the case, then I think a Diode inline would fix that.
Hi friend,
Thanks a lot for the feedback and wonderful questions. 👍👍
Sorry about the confusion, I agree that my explanation in the segment was not perfectly worded.😊
However, I was referring to the fact that the battery may attempt to demand more power than the solar panel can provide - given the panel ratings and available solar irradiance.
I also realize that this is practically an impossibility. However, this will only lead to oscillations.
Also, you are right about the use of a blocking diode, I will implement that on the next test and observe the response.
I need to convert 50v dc to 12v dc , 30A (from 24v solar panel) for using 12v d.c motor ...i searching pwm charge controler or buck converter ...can u please explain which type device is possible to use ....
Hi friend,
To get good value out of your system, I will highly recommend you use an MPPT solar charge controller. Personally, I have used the EPEVER models for a few different projects, and they seem to work well. Also, they have a wider input voltage range than most buck converters you may find out there. Just make sure that you get the one that is rated for 12/24V output voltage and an output current of 30A.
The real issue for most people will be the cost, because these MPPT charge controllers will cost you somewhere between $80 to $100 - just for the 30A version.
Also, make sure that you have a battery between your solar panel and your dc motor. The battery will act as both the energy storage device and the current surge buffer.
This is how I would do it.
Solar panels ==> MPPT solar charge controller ==> 12V battery ==> DC motor.
For your battery, I would recommend using a lithium phosphate battery if you can afford it.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 i have MPPT , But i need use low cost charge controler for only using motor (fish pond ) ..
1.May I connect laptop power supply ( 20 V 3 A ) to solar input MPPT ( or PWM ) ? (for test without solar panel )
2. or this booster ?
That was similar to what we showed in this video. As long as your laptop power supply produces a clean DC output that is within the specs of your MPPT charge controller, you can give is a try. However, to test the MPPT function, you need a real solar panel. This is because a laptop power supply provides a well regulated constant power source - which is contrary to what solar panels are designed to do.
What is the impedance of the power source? A car battery has a very low impedance while a PV panel has a very high impedance. So their IV curves will be very different.
Great question.
The answer goes to a much deeper analytical level. However, to keep it a bit simpler, the output impedance of switch-mode power supplies is dynamic. This is largely a function of the voltage and current levels that interfaces with your load in real time.
For example, a 12V, 1000W converter at full load will present a very low output impedance due to a high current draw by the load. On the other hand, if only 1W of output power is drawn from the same converter at the same output voltage, the calculated dynamic impedance will be much higher.
To keep things simple, we assume that given the DC nature of the output, ohms law applies, and that brings us to the good old V = I*Z;
WHERE Z is the output dynamic impedance of the converter - with respect to the applied load.
💥You will notice that I used "Z" and not "R"?
This is because there are some small components AC components present at the output of the converter.....and this we know as ripple.
The same is true if the output voltage is much higher than the 12V example used above. Imagine the output dynamic impedance of a 1000W, 1000V converter ===> Essentially, the output current supplied to the load would only be 1A.
Now, solve for "Z" in the equation above!💥
Essentially, we are solving ohms law at the output of the converter.....again this goes much deeper analytically. It depends on how much math you are willing to do and how much deeper you want to get into the nuances of switching supplies.😊
I keep these videos as simple as I can, for a good reason...hahaha.
This is too much fun for me...hahaha. Sorry for going super nerdy on you.
Your question was quite interesting!
👍😎
I hope this helps.
Does the MPPT constantly change its internal resistance to match the panel?
Hi friend!
This is a very interesting and intriguiing question that is worthy of research. As far as I know, MPPT Charge Controllers use a very complex algorithm to implement what is known as incremental conductance. I believe that conductance is the inverse of resistance, so in a way, your theory may be correct. But honestly, I have not done any research to know how the handshake between the MPPT software and hardware is implemented.
One of the best questions of the year!
👍😎
@john shaw yes, by increasing or decreasing duty cycle.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 you can easily build an mppt controller with Arduino, build a normal buck converter with Arduino and you need to measure solar voltage and current then you can get watt by multiplying them. Implement this simple algorithm for mppt
If(solarWatt > previousSolarWatt){
If(solarVoltage < previousSolarVoltage){
Pwm++;
}
If(solarVoltage> previousSolarVoltage){
Pwm--;
}
If(solarWatt < previousSolarWatt){
If(solarVoltage < previousSolarVoltage){
Pwm--;
}
If(solarVoltage> previousSolarVoltage){
Pwm++;
}
}
i use 12v, 1.5 amp (max) solar panel with >> 5v 2amp (max) dc converter to charge my (3200 mah) old phone. it takes approx. 4- 4.5 hour for full charge on a sunny day. should i use mppt instead of dc converter?
Great question.
👍👍👍
The honest truth is that if you can afford an MPPT solar charge controller, it would be my #1 recommendation, any day. MPPT charge controllers are literally built for this sole function.
I hope this helps.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab
@@theinnovati0nlab782 I read that since the panel power is low, that is, it gives a maximum of 1.5 amps, it will not make much difference at low volts and amperes. Is this true?
Hi...can it be parallel in 3 that boost converter...thank you sir
This is actually a great question.
👍👍
The truth is that connecting two more switch-mode boost converters in parallel is always a difficult thing to do. Now, when the converters have variable outputs, it becomes even harder to control all the parallel converters. I am looking at a way to modify and increase the power of these units. Stay tuned, my friend.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 yes sir...thank you for your reply.. I'll be waiting for your expirement...and more power to your channel
Yes 👍 ⚡
Thanks a lot!
I appreciate it.
I think a buck converter is most suitable to handle the job. Your PSU is giving 24V and the battery is no need to be charged with above the battery voltage (CMIIW), so this is why we need a buck converter to decrease the output voltage so we can get more current
Or it's interesting to see your boost converter working when you make your PSU give low voltage like 10V or less so the boost converter will handle to boost the voltage near to what is should be to charge the battery
Thanks a lot for the wonderful thoughts.
We greatly appreciate it.
However, 24V is the battery's nominal voltage. The recommended charging voltage is usually higher than the nominal, for any battery type.
Usually, for a 24V lead-acid battery, you will need a charging voltage of about 28V, that is, if you hope to recharge the battery close to its 100% rated capacity.
This is the same reason why vehicle alternators put out about 14-15VDC. This way, there is enough potential difference between the charging system and the battery to keep the car battery fully charged and above the 12V nominal at all times.
👍😎
@@theinnovati0nlab782 i'm sorry sir. I thought that your battery voltage was 12v :)
@reiya6563
No worries at all.
We love the interaction in here. Please feel free to keep sharing your ideas, thoughts, and questions.
👍😎
But cc cv has settings too to set max output and input voltages currents. Still buck convrrters may do better work with adding low and owercharge protections ofcourse.
Thanks a lot for the feedback.👍👍
We appreciate it.
Saudações!
Pensando na produção e armazenamento de energia com um menor custo de hardware, pensei na seguinte situação que irei testar e que se ao senhor interessar, também poderia testar.
Placa solar de 150w
Utilizar um conversor stepdown da seguinte forma:
A placa solar entra num banco de capacitores comuns retirados do lixo e depois segue para o stepdown de 300w
, configurado para saida em 14.8v
Depois disto entra num controlador de carga pwm barato de boa qualidade, com as 3 fases de carregamento para bateria!
O que o sr acha? Pode ser eficiente?
Agradeço
Wonderful!
Great thinking.👍👍
I believe that you are on the right track, going from solar panels to capacitor banks, buck converters, and then to the battery.
I think you should give a try to see if it will work. The only thing I would say is that the capacitor bank may only help the buck converter during the startup phase - especially with surge currents...that is really it. In other words, I honestly don't think that the capacitor bank is necessarily for solar battery charging. The buck converter should already have some input filter caps built-in.
However, what I would recommend is to test the system with and without the capacitor bank. Also, test all the components to make sure that they are good. If not, you may end up short circuiting your solar panel or batteries.....and you don't want that.
Success Wishes On your diy project.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab
Much better with MPPT as it works in real time and does not 'collapse' the solar panel voltage like a normal converter. You have to keep adjusting a buck converter, which is not realistic as the power keeps moving with the clouds. I can see why MPPT cost more, it's like someone is adjusting it for you.
Very well said.
No better statement than that!
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab💥
where do i buy this at i need one or 2 of them
You can find any of those components online on ebay or Amazon.
Product names:
*MPPT charge controller
*1500W constant current DC to DC boost converter.
I hope these are the components you were referring to.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 I want one like the guy who's building them
What's the ripple?
I heard that ripple could degrade the battery. Any tips?
You are absolutely right about ripple voltages being a possible concern for battery health. However, it also depends on the ripple frequency. The peak-to-peak ripple voltage is important for battery charging systems, but low frequency ripples are more detrimental to your battery cells.
These converters have high switching frequencies in KHz, and I believe that battery systems should be less sensitive to such ripples.
The empirical rule of thumb is that ripple voltage should be less than 1.5% of the charging voltage - for a charger with a decent output.
I measured the no-load ripple on these converters at some point, I will check my notes or possibly remeasure it and update you.
Thanks for asking for a thoughtful question.
I love it when people engage intellectually instead of the random disguised and exhausting trolls.
Thanks again.
👍😎
@@theinnovati0nlab782 thank you kindly! I bought a 3000W Chinese UPS, and turned off the charger because I saw it charging and discharging every second -- scary stuff for lithium ion! (Using a 48V ebike battery, until I figure out how to connect car lithium cell tabs together.)
Now I use an AC power supply feeding one of the AE 1800W boost converters. At the moment, that feeds a Victron BlueSolar MPPT 48 -- which keeps the battery at 50% charge. Theoretically I could use the boost converter directly, but the solar panels are not installed yet.
Was thinking of replacing the 30V PS + BC with something simpler, more efficient, and high reliability.
Looking at MeanWells, the ripple spec is 150-250mV, which concerned me. I am basically floating the battery at 50% 24/7, with the UPS pulling 100mA constantly. (Also, MWs seem to top out around 55V, which wouldn't work if I go to a higher battery voltage -- the UPS doesn't go into protection mode until 60V!)
Would love your advice please!
@mrtechie6810
Wonderful, I hope I understood you well. If not, please correct me.
However, if you have a 48V lithium phosphate battery and your solar system is not ready yet, I would recommend that you try charging the battery using the boost converter. But I will recommend using a well calibrated power monitor to keep a close eye on your charging currents and voltages. I am not sure about the capacity (mAh rating) of your battery pack, but I would recommend consulting the battery manufacturer's spec for the recommended charging voltage and current.
If you built the batrery diy, then what I have found from research is that you need about 3.65V to charge a single lithium phosphate cell (4.2V for Li-ion). This is for both the constant current and constant voltage charging phases.
This means that your 48V battery possibly has about 16 paralleled groups of cells in series
So this means that you need about ==> (16*3.65) = 58.4V as the charging voltage. You can use the 55V just to play it safe....but your battery won't get to 100% charge.
The charging current is really a flexible parameter, and it depends on the charging rate that your battery can handle.
But I believe that the rule of thumb is to keep your charging currents below 0.3C for LiPo4 and Li-ion batteries.
Where "C" is the mAH rating of your battery. Personally, I would recommend using less than 0.2C, especially since you are still testing your charging setup.
For example:
If your battery is rated for 48V, 30,000mAH.
I would try using the following;
Charging voltage: 55V
Charging Current: 6Amps
SAFETY TIP:
These batteries have very high energy and power densities, and this makes them vulnerable if overcharged. If you built the battery, make that you used a reliable BMS circuit that will prevent your battery from overcharging or overdischarging. Make sure you watch the charger and power monitor very closely. Charge your batteries away from any possible flammable objects. Make sure that the charging area is very well ventilated. Again, please keep an eye on your charging system.
I hope this helps in some way. Please don't forget to update us on how your project went with the solar.
Success wishes to you!
👍😎
I use buck converter which stays at the same volts even if it's is cloudy.
Hi friend!
Thanks a lot for such great feedback. 👍👍
However, I have not really used either a buck or boost converter for solar charging in the past. I have always used either a PWM or MPPT charge controller. This is a learning experiment for me as well, so thanks a lot for sharing your experience.
However, when there is a cloud going over your solar panel, does the charging current drop?
@@theinnovati0nlab782 when its cloudy current drop in buck converter just like mppt.
@innovati0nlab782, are you saying in the video the converter is cutting off from low input power?
Hello.
As you said, big mistakes...
The mppt needs a higher voltage than the battery to charge it.
The boost converter needs a lower voltage than the battery to charge it.
To compare, you need a buck converter witch, as the mppt needs a higher voltage than the battery.
It seems that you showed one buck converter, the SZBK07, but I would’nt ask it to deliver more than 3 Ampères without ventilation, and max 5 Ampères with ventilation.
I often used the ZK5012 buck converter to charge 12 Volts batteries from my 24 Volts solar system, or even directly from my 6 x 100 Watts solar pannels 2 series, 3 parallel wich produce up to 42 Volts peak unloaded, and about 15 Ampères around 32 Volts when connected to the Epever tracer 50 an.
I must admit I made mistakes too, with the ZK5012, I inverted the polarity when charging a car battery, the out fuses 2x20 Ampères smoked, they are surface mount, I will replace them with car fuses, easyer to replace when I blow them again. 🤣😂🤣
Cheers.
Thanks a lot for such wonderful feedback, friend! I appreciate it.
👍👍
Yes, the experiment wasn't perfect, I plan to redo it in the future with a solar panel.
Thanks again for the wonderful feedback.
Mppt Incremental conductance?
Hi friend,
Thanks a lot for the very thoughtful question.👍Honestly, I don't know much about the inner workings or design of the Epever MPPT charge controller used in this video. However, I do know that incremental conductance is basically baked into the control software/hardware of every efficient solar charge controller that performs MPPT or MPPC.
Why u don,t go direct to the main topic and test both because the are different thing and mppt just with battery because .
Ok. Thanks for the feedback.
a dc dc converter is a component of mppt but cant maintain the panel at mpp. the mppt controller modulate the resistance of load to keep the panel at correct voltage. and in partially shadow is possible to have 2 or more mppv, but only one is real.
This sounds like you are repeating what was already explained in this video. Please watch the video.
We appreciate your feedback, but you have to keep them constructive.
CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK FORMAT:
- what was good about the video.
- what can be improved on.
- Now, your suggestions.
These videos are time-consuming and very expensive to make. It's never inspiring when it seems that some people are watching content online just to find faults.
Thanks!
The Innovati0n Lab 💥
Reveal. And compare mppt components. And buck converter components. Whats tge diff.
Hi friend,
Thanks a lot for all the wonderful feedback.
This sounds like a great idea. 👍👍
Being a "boost converter" it will always output a higher voltage than the input => You will need to add a step-down regulator ( extra loss ) in order to make this work as a charger.
You could have skipped the "testíng part" and just read the specifications to reach that conclusion. 😉
Hi friend,
I like your sense of humor,
Hahaha. However, your comment was predicated on a preconceived notion that this content creator can actually read....you never know, maybe he can't.😉😂
However, thanks for the great feedback, though I appreciate it.
But I very respectfully disagree with your viewpoint about boost converters. The fact that a converter works in the 'Boost' mode does not mean that it can not be used as a battery charger. As a matter of fact, I have demonstrated this concept in multiple videos. To charge a battery, you basically need a power source that can perform the following functions.
1. Supply an output voltage that is greater than or equal to the required charging voltage of your battery system.
2. A current controlled source that helps you dial-in the required charging current for your battery.
Now, having said this, these are the features that this boost converter has already provided. Voltage control, current control, etc. The idea was to boost the output voltage from the solar panels using the boost converter such that it can be used to charge the 24V battery shown in the video - and it works!
The question is not if it works.....the question is, can its efficiency come close to that of the MPPT charge controller....as a "Solar charge controller"? The clear answer is .....NO. This is simply because a solar panel is basically a weak power source that is dependent on the solar irradiance incident on it. The MPPT charge controller uses an incremental conductance algorithm to regulate charge with varying solar irradiance by implementing the 'Maximum Power Point Control' function.
Now, if you can glean all of this performance/efficiency behavior from reading a poorly written spec on Amazon, I salute you, my friend!
👍😎
Thanks again for the wonderful feedback.
@@theinnovati0nlab782 You're right. And I thought that you made this content entirely. :D
I think we're misunderstanding each other.
My point has nothing to do with efficiency, but with safety.
As far as I know. This controller doesn't support "CV regulation" of the output voltage, in the case you want a lower voltage than the input voltage!
( This is important info and should IMHO be stated in the video. )
If the voltage on the output rise beyond float charge levels, the boost converter will "as you say" go into CC-mode.
But if the situation is maintained for a long time and there's enough power available at the input, the voltage will eventually also rise, and it will damage the battery.
So the safety topic I'm missing in this video is: Before considering this controller at all, you have to make sure that the "solar panels" does not have an Voc, higher than the highest safe voltage of the batteries. ;)
Hi friend,
I am loving this interaction and I am glad you get my sense of humor....Hahaha.
However, you are right about safety - always very important. The points you raised were absolutely valid.
We feel blessed to have such brilliant minds supporting our channel.
Thanks again my friend!
If you use 48volt solar panel to charge 24 battery adjusting DC DC booster 28.5 volt current also to 20amp
I like the way you think, but that is technically not possible. You can not lower your solar panel's output voltage with a boost converter. Unless you meant a buck converter?
Why would you want to boost up charging voltage? Rewire your panels.
Thanks for the wonderful engagement.👍👍👍
However, the goal of the experiment shown in this video was precisely what we were testing - to know if these boost converters could be used as cheap and efficient alternatives for solar battery charging.
We were not desperate for battery charging solutions. This was purely an experiment designed to answer a specific question.
"Can a constant current DC-DC boost be used as an efficient solar battery charger?"
I hope it all makes more sense to you now.
Thanks.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab
If have a good battery bank
Thanks for watching our videos.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab 💥
i found with these chinese boost converters when you input lower voltages ,the eff is terrible ,but when inputting 60 volt to get 80 volt with 10 amp and up input the eff increases,but there is huge differences ikn quality between units ,generally they are poorly made
Agreed!
You are on point.
👍👍
But most converters exhibit similar edficiency behaviors with respect to input voltage levels.
the final solution was actually no mppt or booster just 5 of those thin and flex pannels in series and straight to bms@@theinnovati0nlab782
we love to make life hard for ourselves dont we
Mppt use programming code a pwm ic and op amp can’t handle tracking current and automatically adjust so without programming skill it not going to work
Thanks a lot for the wonderful feedback.
You are absolutely right, and I fully understand the functional differences between an MPPT, a PWM controller, and a DC-DC Boost converter. However, this was presented as an experimental project to satisfy our audience's curiosity on the subject.
We presented a video a while ago to show how to use the constant current DC-DC boost converters as battery chargers and after that, we recieved multiple requests to conduct the experiment......well, giving that we already had an MPPT solar charge controller, a working DC-DC Boost Converter, and the time to make the video, so we decided to give it a shot. The primary goal was essentially to show that attempting to use a boost converter to replace an MPPT solar charge controller is never a great idea.
In a nutshell, I agreed with you even before making the video...hahaha. Again, this was an experiment that I embarked on mostly for entertainment and educational purposes.
I hope that this makes sense to you, and I hope that you are a subscriber. 😊
Thanks for the wonderful feedback.
- The Innovati0n Lab💥
I dislike this because 1. You are using different measuring equipment. These cheap power meters may be very inaccurate so readings would differ compared to your inverter onboard readings. Should use the same power meter for both tests. 2. Comparing two different situations - voltage buck charging 12V battery and voltage boost charging 24V battery. This is unfair comparison because buck conversion is generally more efficient. So your epever mppt controller has unfair advantage here. You should compare cheap buck converter (pick one with low voltage protection feature and set to solar panels MPP voltage). Only then you will get a fair comparison.
Hi friend,
Thanks a lot for the wonderful feedback and for letting us know your reason for disliking this video. We appreciate it.
👍👍
However, this video was not really intended to be a one-for-one comparison between the Epever MPPT controller and the boost converter.
This video was merely a response to multiple questions regarding if this boost converter will be suitable as an efficient solar charge controller replacement. The Epever controller was merely used as a control equipment as a source of good data. Comparing two cheap converters may not tell me anything because both of them may end up being outright bad. I understand what you are saying about the cheap power meters, but the fact that something is cheap, doesn't necessarily mean that they will automatically be inefficient. Also, I verified the readins of those meters using my calibrated Fluke DMM.
As you probably know, making videos of this nature takes a great deal of time, resources and effort and perfection is almost impossible - especially with limited time and resources. There is always room for improvement with good positive feedback.
Just an FYI,
I have also made a video to actually compare a buck converter with the Epever.
But now I am worried that you will dislike it as because of the cheap meters...😂
Thanks again, my friend and enjoy your weeks.
Success wishes on your projects.
👍😎
You should have used original solar panels for this experiment for accuracy 😢
Thanks a lot for the great feedback.
That was also done in the video below.
👇👇👇
czcams.com/video/4RfOrXcBvOY/video.htmlsi=57aHHwStWrXhKpTy
You should've used a Buck Converter. Not boost!
czcams.com/video/xrGDlZx0fKQ/video.html
They have different functions bro
I see your point.
But quick question to put things in perspective for you....What is the name of my CZcams channel?
I am not trying to call you captain obvious or anything.😄 However, the entire premise of this channel and this video specifically is to find unconventional but affordable ways to accomplish a function. Yes, you are right but this video was intended as an experiment....mostly to tell our audience who sent me multiple questions about using a DC-DCboostconverter as a solar battery charger, that this is not a good idea.
Explaining to me what I already already explained in a video almost 2 years ago is a little funny, but it's all good.
We welcome and encourage all interactions audience interactions in here. We just ask that you watch the video fully before you make your comment.
I hope this helps.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab💥
be careful with this boost converter
it can only limit the current if the voltage in is lower than the voltage out.
example 20V in and 24V out
this doesn't work. 37V in and 24V out.
then you need a buck/boost converter.
Hi friend.
Thanks a lot for the amazing comment. Safety is always an important note and the number priority.
However, it appears that you may be confusing this video with a different video.😊
Please, where did you see the "37V INPUT and 24V OUTPUT" that you mentioned? Were you able to watch the entire video?
The solar panel emulator provided a 24V input that was boosted to about 28V level... which corresponds to the charging voltage required for two 12V lead-acid batteries connected in series(24V).
Please let me know if you have any questions. But this test is very straightforward and actually presents a low risk.
If you are to use it with a solar panel that provides 37V, then you should never be using it to charge lower voltage battery as you mentioned....that is correct. As a matter of fact the boost converter will never produce an output voltage that is lower than the input - that is against the design principles of boost converters.
Thanks again, my friend.
Success wishes on your projects.
👍👍😎
First of all, yes, you need to use a real solar panel as a power source.
Then, the DC/DC boost converter MUST charge an higher voltage battery than the PV voltage.
And finally, the DC/DC boost converter has a low voltage "source" protection.
If We select that protection voltage to be the nominal Maximum Pover Voltage of our solar panel, We could get fantastic resoults!
Please try better again in the next occasion! Bye
Thanks for watching this video and reacting to it, we appreciate your feedback.👍👍👍
However, this video was made a while ago, and as promised, we had already made the sequel that you were referring to - with real solar panels.
See the link below
👇👇👇
czcams.com/video/4RfOrXcBvOY/video.html
Thanks again.
👍😎
The Innovati0n Lab.
YOU CANT SIMULATE A PANEL WITH POWER SUPPLY!!!!a panel make less power if you pass the mpp voltage!! is a characteristic of silicon cells . Is the mppt that change panel voltage , not the panel that change itself. controller not change the voltage, but change the load resistance to mantein the panel at a precise voltage independent of load voltage
As it was clearly explained in the video, the solar panel emulation was not perfect. The goal was to create a current limited power source and use it as a basis to make a comparison between the MPPT controller and the boost converter. This was the reason why I promised to make the follow-on video with real solar panels... and I actually made the follow-on video about a year ago.
What I see a lot is that people will take a glance at a video's thumbnail or maybe not watch the entire video, and next, they are leaving comments with ALL CAPS and exclamations.
Please watch the video in full and watch the follow-on before you make your comment.
THE FOLLOW-ON TEST WITH REAL SOLAR PANELS!
👇👇👇👇👇
czcams.com/video/4RfOrXcBvOY/video.htmlsi=WzgYgkmtj2DMRPUC
yes this is , you explain the difference between mppt an converter. but the power suopply dont have the same behavior of panel. or is possible? how can power supply increase the power increasing the voltage and at some point , if you pass a certain limit, drastically drop the power? is possible? I think no. is a specific behavior of solar cells physic. im wrong?
ok sorry I miss the part when you explain that thensimaulation is not perfect. for me is more than not perfect. but ok. I say this, because thousand of people speacking solar mppt on CZcams, not comprend the mppt essence. for example in a video the guy show 2 mppt with same panel and different output power, and say that is a efficiency problem. but is not. one of the mppt, totally fail the mpp voltage. It would be some like 30v and the mppt put the panel at 36v. Simply cant produce the max power at that voltage.
The mppt controller wiorking in mppt mode only in bulk phase (max current). in absorption and float constant voltage phases they dont make mppt. In this phases the panel voltage is some between the mppV and open circuit,. depend of the load. but the controoller dont modulate resistance to reach a precise target voltage for the panel.
@@theinnovati0nlab782
Göstermek yerine bütün videolarında boş boş konuyosun. Videonun tamamı bla bla
Its so true what they say that no one can possibly please everyone! Usually, I would IGNORE and DELETE rude comments of this nature because they undermine and show absolutely no appreciation for the amount of work that goes into making these videos, but I have chosen to look at this as a constructive criticism - even though it is nothing but demeaning and insulting to my intellect.
In the past, my audience asked for more explanations of the concepts presented in my videos....and this is the format we will continue to use. If you are looking for those videos where people mindlessly solder wires and MOSFETs....or maybe cut transformers, then you are probably on the wrong CZcams channel.
Please be mindful of not becoming an internet bully. I know that we can be tempted at times, but it is always good to practice good self-control. Your feedback and recommendations will be better received if you keep them respectful and constructive.
Example: Tell us what you liked about the video....then tell us how we can improve on the areas you didn't like....then give us some ideas for future content.
AGAIN, PLEASE DON'T BE A TROL. This planet can always use one more positive human being.
I hope this helps.
👍😎
Ok... what about battery to battery? If I have a 51.2v 105ah lithium battery and a 12v 50ah AGM accessory battery in my golf cart... what is best for keeping that 12v battery charged...? A 48v-12v stepdown converter, an MPPT solar controller or a DC-DC charger?
Great question.👍👍👍
It comes down to the transfer of stored energy from a higher voltage battery to a lower voltage one.
Any of these devices would work. It's just that you will have to deal with the power losses associated with the process.
MPPT charge controllers would be my bet because they are designed for better performance and high efficiencies, which translates to lower power losses.
This will make a great experiment.!
I hope this helps!
The Innovati0n Lab 💥
www.theinnovati0nlab.com
@theinnovati0nlab782 ok, so you think the MPPT will be more efficient, BUT which will maintain the 12v agm battery better... I'm not concerned with loss of energy of the lithium pack... that would be 2 scenarios... efficiency and maintenance... which has better charging profile, the controller or the charger