I’ve been listening to the bulk fermentation series as if it were a pod cast. My brain is swollen with all of this new information, and I appreciate it.
I love your humor Tom. Great video. I feel like a weak starter is the cause of most new baker's issues. A lot of videos say a starter can be ready in as little as a week. I had to feed mine for 2 months before it was even marginally ready to bake bread. The strength of your starter is the one wild card that makes following recipes to the letter nearly impossible. Your videos really are the most helpful I've seen. Thank you for all your hard work at The Institute!
I agree. When I go back and watch my older videos I can clearly see the impact of weak starter on my loaves. Check out the beginning of this video for a real mind-blowing experiment on starter strength. czcams.com/video/DI0nyQpqzoY/video.html
Thanks so much for this, it explains a lot of the stuff I've noticed in my 9 months of sourdough baking. I've been practising for quite a few months now and have finally settled on what works quite well for a lazy-arse baker like myself with no real ability to control temperature and an irregular and sometimes unpredictable schedule: throw it in the fridge. Turns out that even though my house is cold and Iusually use cold water, I was pretty consistently overproofing everything and ending up with very tasty frisbees and not getting that nice oven spring any time I try to use time rather than other signs... I've got a feel now for how many stretch-folds is enough for a given batch. I do use a few of the tests you use, but I definitely find the refrigerator is giving me way more consistent results even though my timing is even less consistent, if anything. I use 50/50 white and whole wheat flours, my starter usually doubles size in 4-6h, I use 80% moisture (I worked my way up from 70%), and I add the leaven to the water and the flour on top of that, mix it up then sprinkle the salt on top, then set the time for 30 minutes and the first time it goes off is a fairly vigorous mixing and then every 30 min after that I do stretch and folds until it feels when I start like it usually does when I finish (it tightens up, is the best way I can describe it), then I'll either leave it out for an hour or two tll I can see some increase in size or throw it in the fridge overnight, the let it sit out an hour to warm up. Then I form my loaves and either leave it out 2 hours till it passes the poke test the bake it, or throw everything back in the fridge again and bake it the next day. I'm even finding this irons out the bumps when I mistreat my starter and don't feed it previously that week or if don't get the timing quite right and miss the happy place by half an hour, or if I've been feeding it with spelt or rye and it's a little unpredictable, although that could also be because I now regularly fermentolyse rather than just autolyse which I suspect through my winemaking experience gives it a bit of a boost, like making a starter for wine or beer, also I'll use warm water if I'm unsure about my starter's status. I also find that when I feed then refrigerate my starter, I don't get the same rise even if it does ferment itself out, when I warm it up and feed it again, it's fine. I'm wondering if the time it takes to heat up and cool down is enough to deal with it? I'm also not finding out a lot of difference if I do preshaping or just do a final shape either. Since I don't have a dutch oven, baking it on a pizza stone with a big loaf pan flipped over it for half of its 40 min (30 min for buns) seems to be giving me lovely oven rise and I leave the lid on longer if I want a softer crust. I make wine and mead, and yeah, the yeast definitely doesn't listen to when you want them to stop fermenting! It also doesn't read the label either, about its own alcohol tolerance! And good Meat Loaf reference :)
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you have a good process. If I keep starter in the fridge, I like to take it out 2 days before I bake and get at least two feedings at room temp before baking. Preshaping is overrated. I skip it sometimes.
@@thesourdoughjourney I find that life's all about the workarounds, be honest about your failings and figure out how to work around them. I sometimes get a lot more rise in the centre of the loaf (that pyramid thing you were talking about) but the bigger bubbles usually aren't huge tunnels (mostly it seems like they're the bigger bubbles that formed during bulk ferment which I didn't pop when I shaped the loaf) and the crumb is pretty open all the way through. I occasionally get a gummy loaf but that's because they might be a little underbaked, I find I wreck my mouth on the crust and can't cut through the bottom of the loaf without wrecking my cutting boards if I wait for the thermometer to say 195-200F. All that really matters is that they taste good and we can chew them!
I’m 38.06 in on this video and the light bulb went on. I have been waiting for my starter to rise and fall before feeding my starter again. Thus never really having a strong starter to begin my breads with. No wonder I have been having issues. I watched too many other people who didn’t explain it like you have. Thank you so much for all these sciency stuff. It’s exhausting in a good way. I feel like I’m actually learning something useful.
Omg thank you so much for making this video!!!!! Yes those ambiguities in the Tartine book have been a little maddening. Great to have that insight. I got so many great loaves out of Covid but something happened and I have been in a slump that has been unbelievably maddening! 15+ loaves in a row that aren’t right!
Another fantastic video! I am learning everyday. I knew my starter was weak, but seeing the under proofed loaf here proves it, as it looked just like my last loaf. I think "Miss Jackson", after a couple weeks of strengthening (from another of your videos) is strong enough now, so back at it tomorrow :)
Tom, I LOVE your careful, experimental approach, presentation of data, willingness to question your own assumptions, and everything else about what you do in these videos! One thing about the conclusion about weak starter and weak levain: How does it square with the examples of bakers making decent, to above average, to great loaves (in terms of fermentation, oven spring, crumb), with unfed starter, straight from the fridge, no separate step to build a levain, and much longer bulk fermentation times (some 12 hours or longer, not including any fridge time). I myself recently did one that had great oven spring and respectable crumb, with a starter straight from the fridge that I hadn’t fed in about 2 weeks, and a bulk time of about 15 hours. I’m trying to think how to explain those results in light of what your data here show. Here are some possible explanations rolling around in my mind: 1. Unfed but mature starter is not weak in the same way that new starter is. It still has a reasonable amount of yeast for the bacteria, though numbers and activity of both are much lower than active starter at peak. So even if it starts very slow and goes long, you get adequate rise before the protease from the bacteria weaken gluten too much. 2. Lower innoculation: using a tiny amount of starter as some do, gives the yeast and bacteria time to reproduce and work in a balanced way, and there’s very little protease activity for a very long part of this bulk fermentation because of starting with so few bacteria relative to the amount of dough. 3. Lower temperatures. Most of these approaches (including mine) bulk ferment at a room temperature of 67-70 F. This may slow protease enzyme activity more than yeast activity, so that we still get enough gas production over the longer bulk fermentation before gluten starts breaking down significantly. I’d love to hear your thoughts, either here or in a future video. (Or if you’ve made a video that addresses it, could you point me that way?) Thanks!
Thank you for the feedback and insightful questions. Watch Episode 6 of this series where I answer this question. What I’m calling a “weak” starter may also just be an unfed, acidic starter bulk fermenting at high temperature. The acid impedes the yeast production and the protease enzyme deteriorates the gluten quickly in a high temperature, acidic environment. I have had good luck with “unfed” starters at low temperatures, but everything changes as the temperature rises.
Open this comment for clickable links to sections in the video... 0:05 Intro 2:51 The Experiment 5:00 Other Videos to Consider 10:43 The Recipe 13:58 Mixing the Dough 16:54 Stretch and Fold #5 21:07 Bulk Fermentation Percent Rise 22:35 Stretch and Fold #6 / Loaf #1 Bulk Fermentation Done 32:55 Loaf #2 Bulk Fermentation Done 36:24 A Message from the Future 38:37 Loaf #3 Bulk Fermentation Done 42:33 Loaf #4 Bulk Fermentation Done 48:07 Day 2: Score and Bake 49:55 Comparing the Loaves 57:43 Cutting the Loaves 1:08:09 Slicing the Loaves
Thank you so much for your video! I made my sourdough with a weak starter but I didn't realize it. I spent tons of time to analyze the cause and try to tell whether it's underproof or overproof. However, the result is confusing since it's due to a weaker starter! My starter was only two weeks and went through 100F accidentally for a few hours🤣 After watching your series about bulk fermentation, I can understand the chemistry of dough much better! Normally I don't like to strictly follow a recipe, so your video provides me confidence to try!
Very interesting, I've had this problem a lot myself, I always thought a weak starter wouldn't matter too much so long as you give it enough time. But now I understand why it doesn't work, too much time and the gluten structure will get shredded!
Yes. This is one of the most important things I’ve learned. The acidity of your starter is critically important to the outcome of the loaf. If the acid outruns then yeast, the results always suffer.
I also thought that a weak starter/levain just needed time - until I watched this video. I discovered this channel a few weeks ago, and have learnt so much. The methodical, scientific approach and clear in-depth explanations rarely found elsewhere, are a valuable resource.
TLDR; for me it seems like 83F is too hot for the young starter. About this vinegar smell. What I've learned, is that there are two types of lactic acid bacteria in the starter - homofermenters and heterofermenters. the former produce just lactic acid, while the later produce both lactic and acetic acids (hence "hetero-"). And the yeast doesn't like acetic acid (aka vinegar), while tolerate lactic. As I understand, heterofermenters thrive at higher temperature, and homofermenters feel better at lower. So, when one does bulk fermentation at around 73-75F, it smells more yogurty (lactic acid smell), while at 83-85F one have more vinegarish smell. Fruity smell, as I understand, is a proper mix of vinegar and yogurt. And I guess, for the younger starter, with not well established yeast population, suppressing effect of acetic acid is more pronounced. I even killed one not-yet-starter by overheating - it turned to a vinegary smelled mass.
This is the reason my first loaves of bread was door stop. Learning by sniffing the dough & starter really helps, specially if u live in a hot place like, where during the hotter months temp could rise all the way to 38C. So many times i simply got to bulk ferment my dough in the fridge for 6-10hrs then shape & final proof it for a whole hour at room temp before baking to get decent result.
Tom, the Sourdough Baking Academy Internationale of Cleveland will need a rather extensive wing in the museum dedicated to examples of under proofed loaves on exhibit. The question is do the loaves and slices have to go into a jar of formaldehyde or can they be preserved for eternity, as is? I too have told myself many stories about what a supermacho levain I had because I was under the gun to make some damn bread. It's better to never listen to those stories in our heads. The post mortem was worth the video. Thanks!
Thank you for this video. It has been the most helpful video I have had yet. Now I know I need to work on my starter. I was having the same problems. I was getting week wet dough with little rise. Thank you Thank you!
I'm pretty new to this, and this video tells me *all* my loaves thus far have been underproved. I tend to shrug my shoulders and push on if I can't make my timing work with the starter/dough's timing. Great info here which I will use immediately- thanks! Regardless, I'm happy I always follow the advice of *Bake the Bread*. Fresh bread out of the oven always tastes good! (Still... I have sliced loaves from Tartine bakery SF in my freezer, so I know what it should look like😃)
This was an excellent lesson! I never realized that you had to make your leaven when your starter was at its peak. Nothing I have ever read tells you that. Also, that you need to use your leaven at its peak, though going by the overnight timing in Tartine, I assume it catches it at the right time.
Exactly explained in an objective way how gluten and fermentation interplaying! I gone though an exactly similar dough yesterday, it did rise but not opened up nice with large crumbs and dense small crumbs. Taste not good, texture is so gummy. I also noticed when doing shaping some areas were rising higher and some not. Obviously the activities of yeast (or perhaps lactic bacteria) is not even over the dough. I have many failed cases but did have few success before. All I can think of a dough like this is weak starter! The leaven I was using, grown 3 times in 7hrs 26C environment. Like what you said I lie to myself when I want to move on. I did sees small bubbles but I thought grown 3 times means ok. In fact leaven just like a pre vision of the dough, the rise is not an indicator of proper yeast fermentation it can be just lactic gas. My bread rise is because I incorporated air during folding. Weak starter / leaven NOTHING can be done. I tasted, done the biopsy and trashed. Then I searched 'weak starter' and your sharing came up. THANK YOU SO SO SO MUCH. Your video is not like the others, control factors are all told. No drama no bullshit. I definite love it and subscribed!
Hi Tom, thank you very much for your highly educational content. I really enjoy your in depth explanations while using a very comprehensive vocabulary. With the help of your videos I've managed to understand the tartine method in more detail than described in the book. I have followed the recipe with a few variations. I have been using my nice and active starter that I feed with one third of rye flour and two thirds of whole wheat flour. Although the flour shouldn't be changed, I was quite confident on using it because of it's proven activity. The rest of the recipe was used as you and the book have asked for. I have tracked and adjustedthe temperature throughout the entire process. That helped a lot as well as the so called smell test. I had to use a different baking setup as my oval shaped banneton baskets didn't support the size of my 28cm diameter dutch oven. I've been using a baking stone that I pre heated along side a vessel filled with sauna stones. The stones were covered in boiling water when I put in the loaf in order to create steam. I was able to get a nice oven spring and an open crumb with few fool's crumbs. What I was not able to achieve was a nice ear. I have been baking quite a few loaves before and I have never achieved that goal. I've tried to score in different ways but I somehow don't get there. I've sprayed the top of the loaf with a little water before the bake to keep the outside wet. My guess it that that may not have been the best idea. What are your thoughts on that? If you like I could share my spreadsheet and some pictures of the baking process for further audit. Thanks a lot again for the time and effort you put in those videos. I thoroughly enjoy them. Cheers from the Berlin Germany beginner's basement baking institute aka my kitchen :)
Thank you very much for the detailed feedback! Not getting the ear is one of the most challenging things to diagnose because I always have seemed to get them on my loaves right from the start. Even with all my crazy experiments, they are still very persistent, so I primarily attribute them to the flour (strong bread flour with at least 12.5% protein) and my baking environment (Dutch oven). I know it is quite difficult to get an ear without the use of a Dutch oven. Keep trying more heat, steam and tighter shaping, and/or creating more layers in bulk fermentation (through coil folding). In my series, “Impact of Bulk Fermentation on Open Crumb, you will see the coil folding technique used. If you are using the steam tray, you should not need to spray the loaf, but I don’t think it should hurt. I’d first suggest trying a completely different strong bread flour to see if that makes a difference. Your process sounds good. If you care to post/send photos or details I’m happy to review them in more detail. If you are on Facebook, you can contact me through Facebook Messenger. Good luck in your Berlin beginners basement baking institute! 😀
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the quick and detailed answer. I will try to replicate the bake the next time with the help of your tips. I have been using some 13% proteine manitoba flour alongside some whole wheat flour that my mother in law brought me from a small mill in south Germany. The list of ingredients and temperature shall be as close to the last bake as possible. I will also use a round shaped banneton so i can fit the loaves into the dutch oven. I think it should also be a good idea to asses the impact of baking technique on the crust and ear. I will bake four half sized loafs. I will bake one on the plain stone and one on the stone with steam. The other two will go in the dutch oven. One will bake with some additional water sprayed on top and in the bottom of the oven and the last loaf will go in as it is called for in the recipe. If you like you can add me on facebook via the following link facebook.com/kolbe.robert/. If you are interested, i can keep you up to date :) I wish you a nice start for the upcomming week. Cheers rob.
At 25:55, Tom gives you that "I'm disappointed in you, you know better," face as he describes lying to yourself about fermentation being done. So true. Talk about karma: as he spoke That Very Sentence, my oven timer went off, and my loaf, proofed & retarded after just 15% rise after 12hrs at 72F, finished baking with a mediocre ovenspring. I'm psychologically scarred by overproofing most of my early bread so now it's hard for me to stay strong and patiently wait for the correct percent rise. I'll need to seek counseling.
The struggle is real. But I have learned one thing - “A life lived in fear of over-proofing is a life half-lived.” The best loaves live on the edge of overproofing.
@@thesourdoughjourney appreciate all the time and effort for the testing. I’ve been half tempted to go that route after few failed loaves after making good loaves previously. I think I let my starter sit in the fridge to long. Working my way through your series.
Thanks for a great video Tom. I have been struggling with proofing lately. The dough doesnt rise well, even with 26C and I have weak gluten structure in the end. Thought it was overproofing or my flour. So i did some experiments, but it didnt really help. Now this video gives me the answer! I knew my starter wasnt super active, but I thought that it didnt matter in the end. Now I know why it takes so long, why the dough is slack and why i have bad oven spring. Thanks! will work on activating my starter better before baking :) Gitta
Much respect for posting the video nonetheless, for the sake of the lessons to be learned. Even at the risk of tarnishing the good name of Sourdough Baking Academy Internationale of Cleveland!
I would love to see the same experiment with a more mature levain. In my experience the starter ripeness doesn’t make a difference, but how active your leaving is when used to make the dough.
I am shooting a new video now with a much stronger leaven. Will publish in a few days. Also see Episode 1 which was a similar experiment with stronger leaven.
Thanks. With all of these videos, you can go to the “comparison of loaves” section and watch thru the end. I always recap the experiment there or in the final summary. I’m also planning to write summaries of each of these videos and post them on my website.
Question. How are you able to do al of this without getting flour, starter and dough all over your black shirts? 😊. When simply feeding my starter, I end up covered with starter all over my clothes ....Well done with keeping everything off of your clothing !
The curse of weak starter suggests a cure of compensation with MORE of it. Even if the starter is fine, why not use a higher fraction of starter, notionally to shorten the fermentation, and rise? I've been successful using up to 50% starter (...by mass ratio to flour, and compensating to hold hydration constant), then continuing with your bulk-o-matic cutoff per f(dough temp). Elsewhere a FAQ suggests that high starter fraction will be too acidic, breaking down structure before completing fermentation. Can you say a little more about that? It seems fermentation is "just like" brewing the starter writ large. I'd like to understand the difference.
It’s a risky tradeoff. By using more starter, you’re increasing the initial,acid load and lactic acid bacteria population. The acidity is what causes the “weakness” of the yeast. Check out my new video on Acidic starters.
If you provided the barnyard with unlimited green fields, the cow : raptor : vinegar quantities would still be unchanged during the first couple hours because procreation would be population limited, not resource limited, would it not? In that case, the initial well fed starter is no different from the entire dough, is it not? In other words if we catch the starter just before peak, when it hasn't been inhibited by acid have we not avoided the risk? Thus, doubling the starter, I'd save a doubling time on the bulk fermentation. Maybe I'm missing something, seeing the starter as a little loaf in microcosm. If we baked the starter when it peaks, wouldn't it be good bread?@@thesourdoughjourney
That seems really quick. What is your dough temperature? Are you mixing it with warm water? Is the dough rising and falling in that time? If you are on Facebook, you can messenger me there directly and I can try to help diagnose your issue.
The Sourdough Journey I am on Facebook but can’t find you. I looked up ‘the sourdough journey’ and Tom Cucuzza- there is one in Cleveland but I’m sure it isn’t you. Maybe another link in your description?
Tom, thank you for your very formative video. My question is related to bulk fermentation. I live in Canada and winters are cold. My home is at 19 degrees on an average day. I am bulk fermenting for5 to 6 hours but the temperature is not where it should be. Any suggestions?
Fascinating experiment with an unexpected lesson! Could you clarify one thing? Do you start counting time from when you first mix the dough? Or from when you add the salt?
Thank you. In all of these experiments, I start the clock when I add the starter. Recipes are inconsistent in the use of the term "bulk fermentation," but the "fermentation" process always starts as soon as you add the starter, so that is what I do here for consistency.
Try adding a tablespoon of olive oil to the mix. Also leave the lid on the Dutch oven longer. And wrap the loaf in a kitchen towel after it comes out of the oven. These all help.
I just got an idea! Cant one see bulkfermentation as one Giant feeding? I mean when you feed your starter with an ammount of water and flour and you know that it us peaking some 5 hours later. Pretend now that the flour and water that is the dough is a "feeding" It is basicly a giant feeding +salt. If one can translate the time it takes with a say 1:2:2 or whatever feeding and revaluate this to the ammount of ratio that is the dough? If the dough is kept at the same temp and hydration as the starter, it could be possible to calculate bulkfermentation time this way? Because the rising of a newly fed starter until it reaches its peak is basicly the same as a rising dough, but in a larger scale, is it not? You understand how i think here? Maybe one can calculate how long the perfect bulkfermentation this way? I dunno, but i often likes to think outside the box
Yes, that is exactly what it is. I often think of recipes in these terms. However, your starter does not include salt, and the hydration ratio of bread recipes is usually lower than 100% (which is a common starter ratio). But I am working on some rough rules of thumb based on this concept.
I measure from the level after all the ingredients are mixed. That is the starting level in milliliters. I mark the tape before I put it on the bowls, then I stick it on after the 4th stretch and fold, but I’m measuring from the original level. I just don’t stick stick the tape on until I’m done with the stretch and folds because the tape can fall off when I handle it with wet hands. But I’m measuring from the original level which I marked and then removed the tape.
Tom, I think I have definitely experienced what you have by using a weak starter. From a technical perspective, what do you look for as signs that a starter is at its peak? Is it as simple as approximating it’s physical peak height or are there more subtle clue one can hone in on?
It is really looking at the height, however, sometimes a make a thinner wetter mix (more water) and the strength of the starter is really evident in the bubble activity on the top of the starter (even if it is not rising). I like to change up my hydration from time to time and do a slightly drier or wetter mix to see how the starter reacts to the changes.
@@thesourdoughjourney That’s what I look for too. Is it best to catch it before it begins to subside or does it matter much? I’m thinking slightly before peak or as it peaks since I’m assuming when it starts to cave there are fewer active yeast. Does that make sense?
I’ve had this exact problem. My leaven rose 30 percent over night. Mix in the morning and a few hours later I felt like the dough was at that “stall” stage. It did smell kinda vinegary. I don’t understand why this happened my starter was on top top health. I’ve made better loaves using my starter at peak or near and slightly after with really good results? Can someone explain this? I want to try this recipe again but now I’m hesitant. I’ve been using a hybrid with this recipe with waiting for my starter to reach peak and proceed from there.
Your starter can become acidic over time. Occasionally you need to deacidify it. It is like routine maintenance. Here is a method. thesourdoughjourney.com/how-to-strengthen-and-deacidify-a-weak-starter-the-peak-to-peak-method/
@@thesourdoughjourney I thought using a high feeding ratio, using a starter that hasn’t peaked and keeping it at low temps all reduce the acidity when using it? So how does it become acidic if all these are right?
The milliliter conversion factor is about 1.5, so 500g of flour weight turns into about 750ml after mixing water and starter. So you'd want to go up to 1,000 ml for a 33% rise on 750ml. The taller slender beakers are a little tricky to get the dough out of without really mangling it, so I recommend the style shown here. Maybe twice as tall as it is high. You also can't do stretch and folds once its in the beaker, so I usually do 4 or 5 stretch and folds then move it to the beaker for the end, where most of the rise occurs. I've also done recipes with no handling at all and just let all the BF happen in the beaker. But the vast majority of the rise comes in the last 15% of total BF duration.
I use these nifty lidded stainelss steel bowls with etched gradations right in the bowl, if you use a clear bowl, you can always mark amounts on the outside (measured with water before you put dough on it, if you mark with Sharpie, put clear tape over it so the marker doesn't come off). Another trick I've heard (from The Bread Code) is to take just enough of your dough to cover the bottom of a jar and use that as your reference for how much the dough rises.
@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 I've tried the Bread Code trick but for some reason it didn't work - I guess it was because my dough is way less hydrated than his (I can barely get to 65% with the flour I have available in my town). I've found graduated beakers on AliExpress for like $2 so I think I'm gonna go for them ;)
Thank you. I started this leaven in the morning and baked in the afternoon. I believe it went about 6 hours. I’ll check my notes. It was a 1:10:10 build and I knew I was rushing it.
If you watch Episode 4 you will see examples of bulk fermentation at 50% which I would call “fully proofed,” not necessarily overproofed. 50% can actually make a nice loaf, but it is right on the edge of overproofing.
A professional baker told me they refer to bread formulas, not bread recipes. It made sense to me since they have to use mathematical calculation. I'm with you Tom, I believe in science. I would say most people chiming in here believe in science too, that's why they're following you. I'd even bet these people know how to vote, too, just because they do believe in science. Oh no, let's not believe our lying eyes! Do you think there is any chance the starter conspired against you? Probably not, we don't believe in mass conspiracies either!
Thank you. As I cut into that third loaf you can see my brain working like a supercomputer to figure out what happened. It took me a few seconds to get to the conclusion it was the starter. This is one of the few videos where it did not record every step (I usually do it for reasons like this), but I could see in my mind exactly what happened. My starter was well past peak when I made the leaven and I was overconfident in the strength of it. The mind can play tricks on us.
Thanks. You can just go to the summary of each video where I recap the results. Then if you want to watch the full experiment, go back to the beginning. I put the chapter breaks in for that reason. And you can speed me up to 1.5x on the CZcams settings.
Love these videos, Tom. I've only got 4 sourdough bakes under my belt now, but none have turned out as poorly as any of these at least. Also, I've never had a bulk fermentation under 10 hours... except maybe my first one... but that was under-proofed at a 50% rise, and baked immediately. I should mention I'm not using my proofing container to gauge my rise, instead I take a small sample of dough after the 30 minute fermentolyse & pack it into a small measuring cup. That way, if I deflate my dough later, I still have a reliable fermentometer. Bake #2, I aimed for a doubling in the fermentometer, followed by a retard. Result was better, but crumb was still damp, oven spring wasn't great. Bake #3, I aimed for a 50% rise again, but a warmer ferment to get there, followed by an overnight retard, and I browned it cooler and longer in hopes to dry out the crumb. I wouldn't say it was underproofed, but the crumb was really damp this time even though I baked the sucker good and dark. I was also getting the occasional disgusting whiff of feet while eating it, which told me I need to fix my starter. Following this, I converted from a 1:1:1 feeding ratio over to a stiff starter, feeding 1:2:1 twice per day for a week. Then bake #4 gave me my best result. Bulk ferment still took forever (cool temperature, mind you ~20 degrees C), and I made the mistake (or was it?) of performing a series of coil folds in the morning when my fermentometer was around a 50% rise - it just seemed like it needed it after all that relaxation time, although I mechanically kneaded the dough the night before AND performed a series of stretch & folds. (And yes, the late coil folds definitely evened out the crumb). After the coil folds, we were at a 65ish% rise, then I called bulk fermentation over when the fermentometer had doubled two hours later (~13 hours total). Divide, pre-shape, rest, shape, and counter-proof for 90 minutes (fermentometer: double +25%), then into the freezer to stiffen up a bit before scoring. Both loaves plumped up nicely, but STILL NO EAR! What the hell, Tom? Whyyyyyyy? I use an OLFA razor, and in every case, the dough pulls and drags while I score, even when I grease it up in olive oil. The dough seems to want to fill itself back in where I've scored it. I'm working with 70% hydration, 25% whole wheat, and both flours are above 13% protein. I should tell you, my dough sample will go on rise to more than quadruple before collapsing, and it's not until then I can even detect the funky feety bacterial smell. Now I need to back up and tell you about my starter. Days 2 and 3, huge activity, then nothing but flat stink to the end of week 3, with no signs of any evolution or anything remotely indicative that something was changing. So I cheated. I put in a pinch of Fleishmann's Traditional yeast, fed it for another week and started baking. It seems strong. Doubles in 4-6 hours in my cool kitchen, triples in 8 hours (1:1:1 feeding). At 1:2:1, it's a little slower, but I'm using half as much starter as flour. At 2:2:1, I see a doubling in 4-6 hours. Could I have brewed a monster in those 3 stinky weeks? Is there a creature in my starter that shouldn't be there? Is that why even after 3 weeks, no yeast was able to get established without my Cheaty Cheaterson intervention? I really don't think I'm over-proofing, but then I've never done a window pane test on my loaf in the banneton like you did here, lol. That just seems like a mean thing to do. Poor loaf. I can tell you my dough doesn't seem any stickier after bulk fermentation than it did after working it early on though. What do you make of all this?
By adding commercial yeast to your starter, you’ve created a bit of a monster. The microbiology is complicated. Some percentage of sourdough starters actually contain the same strain of yeast as found in commercial yeast. However, it occurred there “naturally” ao it self selected based on the chemistry and biology of the culture. You added it to a relatively hostile environment (commercial yeast doesn’t do well in the acidity of a natural sourdough starter), and the population/balance was also unnaturally influenced. A “pinch” of yeast contains an unnaturally large number of yeast cells. Over time your starter will rebalance to a “natural” state, but I’d probably recommend starting a new one without the commercial booster. It will always be a question mark when assessing your outcomes otherwise. Regarding the stinky smell, that is a natural smell in some sourdough starters, but it is uncommon to smell that in your bread. Lastly, you are keeping good records and measuring % rise and temps, but I suggest watching Episode 8 of this series. The percent rise is inextricably linked to the dough temperature. A 30% rise at 80F is the equivalent of a 65-75% rise at 70F, for example. You’re on the right track. Keep experimenting.
I’ve been listening to the bulk fermentation series as if it were a pod cast. My brain is swollen with all of this new information, and I appreciate it.
Thank you for the feedback. I do try to describe exactly what I’m seeing so I’m hopeful the videos work somewhat as audio only. Thanks!
@@thesourdoughjourney They do, Tom! Thank you! I also put them on while I work.
I love your humor Tom. Great video. I feel like a weak starter is the cause of most new baker's issues. A lot of videos say a starter can be ready in as little as a week. I had to feed mine for 2 months before it was even marginally ready to bake bread. The strength of your starter is the one wild card that makes following recipes to the letter nearly impossible. Your videos really are the most helpful I've seen. Thank you for all your hard work at The Institute!
I agree. When I go back and watch my older videos I can clearly see the impact of weak starter on my loaves. Check out the beginning of this video for a real mind-blowing experiment on starter strength. czcams.com/video/DI0nyQpqzoY/video.html
Thanks so much for this, it explains a lot of the stuff I've noticed in my 9 months of sourdough baking. I've been practising for quite a few months now and have finally settled on what works quite well for a lazy-arse baker like myself with no real ability to control temperature and an irregular and sometimes unpredictable schedule: throw it in the fridge. Turns out that even though my house is cold and Iusually use cold water, I was pretty consistently overproofing everything and ending up with very tasty frisbees and not getting that nice oven spring any time I try to use time rather than other signs... I've got a feel now for how many stretch-folds is enough for a given batch. I do use a few of the tests you use, but I definitely find the refrigerator is giving me way more consistent results even though my timing is even less consistent, if anything. I use 50/50 white and whole wheat flours, my starter usually doubles size in 4-6h, I use 80% moisture (I worked my way up from 70%), and I add the leaven to the water and the flour on top of that, mix it up then sprinkle the salt on top, then set the time for 30 minutes and the first time it goes off is a fairly vigorous mixing and then every 30 min after that I do stretch and folds until it feels when I start like it usually does when I finish (it tightens up, is the best way I can describe it), then I'll either leave it out for an hour or two tll I can see some increase in size or throw it in the fridge overnight, the let it sit out an hour to warm up. Then I form my loaves and either leave it out 2 hours till it passes the poke test the bake it, or throw everything back in the fridge again and bake it the next day.
I'm even finding this irons out the bumps when I mistreat my starter and don't feed it previously that week or if don't get the timing quite right and miss the happy place by half an hour, or if I've been feeding it with spelt or rye and it's a little unpredictable, although that could also be because I now regularly fermentolyse rather than just autolyse which I suspect through my winemaking experience gives it a bit of a boost, like making a starter for wine or beer, also I'll use warm water if I'm unsure about my starter's status. I also find that when I feed then refrigerate my starter, I don't get the same rise even if it does ferment itself out, when I warm it up and feed it again, it's fine. I'm wondering if the time it takes to heat up and cool down is enough to deal with it?
I'm also not finding out a lot of difference if I do preshaping or just do a final shape either.
Since I don't have a dutch oven, baking it on a pizza stone with a big loaf pan flipped over it for half of its 40 min (30 min for buns) seems to be giving me lovely oven rise and I leave the lid on longer if I want a softer crust.
I make wine and mead, and yeah, the yeast definitely doesn't listen to when you want them to stop fermenting! It also doesn't read the label either, about its own alcohol tolerance!
And good Meat Loaf reference :)
Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you have a good process. If I keep starter in the fridge, I like to take it out 2 days before I bake and get at least two feedings at room temp before baking. Preshaping is overrated. I skip it sometimes.
@@thesourdoughjourney I find that life's all about the workarounds, be honest about your failings and figure out how to work around them. I sometimes get a lot more rise in the centre of the loaf (that pyramid thing you were talking about) but the bigger bubbles usually aren't huge tunnels (mostly it seems like they're the bigger bubbles that formed during bulk ferment which I didn't pop when I shaped the loaf) and the crumb is pretty open all the way through. I occasionally get a gummy loaf but that's because they might be a little underbaked, I find I wreck my mouth on the crust and can't cut through the bottom of the loaf without wrecking my cutting boards if I wait for the thermometer to say 195-200F. All that really matters is that they taste good and we can chew them!
I’m 38.06 in on this video and the light bulb went on. I have been waiting for my starter to rise and fall before feeding my starter again. Thus never really having a strong starter to begin my breads with. No wonder I have been having issues. I watched too many other people who didn’t explain it like you have. Thank you so much for all these sciency stuff. It’s exhausting in a good way. I feel like I’m actually learning something useful.
Thank you!
Omg thank you so much for making this video!!!!! Yes those ambiguities in the Tartine book have been a little maddening. Great to have that insight. I got so many great loaves out of Covid but something happened and I have been in a slump that has been unbelievably maddening! 15+ loaves in a row that aren’t right!
Thanks for the feedback. I’m happy you found it helpful.
Another fantastic video! I am learning everyday. I knew my starter was weak, but seeing the under proofed loaf here proves it, as it looked just like my last loaf. I think "Miss Jackson", after a couple weeks of strengthening (from another of your videos) is strong enough now, so back at it tomorrow :)
Thank you. Good luck.
This is the channel that I was looking for! a REAL pro going over **in details** of every step and element. Well done!!
Thank you for the feedback! I appreciate it.
Tom, I LOVE your careful, experimental approach, presentation of data, willingness to question your own assumptions, and everything else about what you do in these videos!
One thing about the conclusion about weak starter and weak levain: How does it square with the examples of bakers making decent, to above average, to great loaves (in terms of fermentation, oven spring, crumb), with unfed starter, straight from the fridge, no separate step to build a levain, and much longer bulk fermentation times (some 12 hours or longer, not including any fridge time). I myself recently did one that had great oven spring and respectable crumb, with a starter straight from the fridge that I hadn’t fed in about 2 weeks, and a bulk time of about 15 hours. I’m trying to think how to explain those results in light of what your data here show. Here are some possible explanations rolling around in my mind:
1. Unfed but mature starter is not weak in the same way that new starter is. It still has a reasonable amount of yeast for the bacteria, though numbers and activity of both are much lower than active starter at peak. So even if it starts very slow and goes long, you get adequate rise before the protease from the bacteria weaken gluten too much.
2. Lower innoculation: using a tiny amount of starter as some do, gives the yeast and bacteria time to reproduce and work in a balanced way, and there’s very little protease activity for a very long part of this bulk fermentation because of starting with so few bacteria relative to the amount of dough.
3. Lower temperatures. Most of these approaches (including mine) bulk ferment at a room temperature of 67-70 F. This may slow protease enzyme activity more than yeast activity, so that we still get enough gas production over the longer bulk fermentation before gluten starts breaking down significantly.
I’d love to hear your thoughts, either here or in a future video. (Or if you’ve made a video that addresses it, could you point me that way?)
Thanks!
Thank you for the feedback and insightful questions. Watch Episode 6 of this series where I answer this question. What I’m calling a “weak” starter may also just be an unfed, acidic starter bulk fermenting at high temperature. The acid impedes the yeast production and the protease enzyme deteriorates the gluten quickly in a high temperature, acidic environment. I have had good luck with “unfed” starters at low temperatures, but everything changes as the temperature rises.
Open this comment for clickable links to sections in the video...
0:05 Intro
2:51 The Experiment
5:00 Other Videos to Consider
10:43 The Recipe
13:58 Mixing the Dough
16:54 Stretch and Fold #5
21:07 Bulk Fermentation Percent Rise
22:35 Stretch and Fold #6 / Loaf #1 Bulk Fermentation Done
32:55 Loaf #2 Bulk Fermentation Done
36:24 A Message from the Future
38:37 Loaf #3 Bulk Fermentation Done
42:33 Loaf #4 Bulk Fermentation Done
48:07 Day 2: Score and Bake
49:55 Comparing the Loaves
57:43 Cutting the Loaves
1:08:09 Slicing the Loaves
Thank you so much for your video! I made my sourdough with a weak starter but I didn't realize it. I spent tons of time to analyze the cause and try to tell whether it's underproof or overproof. However, the result is confusing since it's due to a weaker starter! My starter was only two weeks and went through 100F accidentally for a few hours🤣 After watching your series about bulk fermentation, I can understand the chemistry of dough much better! Normally I don't like to strictly follow a recipe, so your video provides me confidence to try!
Thank you! Good luck.
Learning the timing is a journey. To know the timing of your starter and how long to BF before putting in the basket and fridge
I was working with a new starter here and it totally threw off my timing.
Very interesting, I've had this problem a lot myself, I always thought a weak starter wouldn't matter too much so long as you give it enough time. But now I understand why it doesn't work, too much time and the gluten structure will get shredded!
Yes. This is one of the most important things I’ve learned. The acidity of your starter is critically important to the outcome of the loaf. If the acid outruns then yeast, the results always suffer.
I also thought that a weak starter/levain just needed time - until I watched this video. I discovered this channel a few weeks ago, and have learnt so much. The methodical, scientific approach and clear in-depth explanations rarely found elsewhere, are a valuable resource.
@@1misago Thank you. Yes. Once the acid starts to outrun the yeast, it only gets worse. Never better. This is a classic example.
I love the dry wit.
Thank you.
TLDR; for me it seems like 83F is too hot for the young starter.
About this vinegar smell. What I've learned, is that there are two types of lactic acid bacteria in the starter - homofermenters and heterofermenters. the former produce just lactic acid, while the later produce both lactic and acetic acids (hence "hetero-"). And the yeast doesn't like acetic acid (aka vinegar), while tolerate lactic. As I understand, heterofermenters thrive at higher temperature, and homofermenters feel better at lower. So, when one does bulk fermentation at around 73-75F, it smells more yogurty (lactic acid smell), while at 83-85F one have more vinegarish smell. Fruity smell, as I understand, is a proper mix of vinegar and yogurt. And I guess, for the younger starter, with not well established yeast population, suppressing effect of acetic acid is more pronounced. I even killed one not-yet-starter by overheating - it turned to a vinegary smelled mass.
Thanks. Very helpful info. This recipe calls for a slightly warmer bulk fermentation but I've had better results in the mid 70s.
This is the reason my first loaves of bread was door stop. Learning by sniffing the dough & starter really helps, specially if u live in a hot place like, where during the hotter months temp could rise all the way to 38C. So many times i simply got to bulk ferment my dough in the fridge for 6-10hrs then shape & final proof it for a whole hour at room temp before baking to get decent result.
Check out my new video on Two-stage Bulk Fermentation. Great for warm kitchens.
@@thesourdoughjourney i will check it out. Thank you. There’s always something we can learn
Tom, the Sourdough Baking Academy Internationale of Cleveland will need a rather extensive wing in the museum dedicated to examples of under proofed loaves on exhibit. The question is do the loaves and slices have to go into a jar of formaldehyde or can they be preserved for eternity, as is? I too have told myself many stories about what a supermacho levain I had because I was under the gun to make some damn bread. It's better to never listen to those stories in our heads. The post mortem was worth the video. Thanks!
Thank you for the feedback. There’s no crying in sourdough baking. Gotta post the good ones and the bad ones.
Fantastic video Tom, will continue watching them they’re very educational, very nice job.
Thanks
Thank you! 🙏
Thank you for this video. It has been the most helpful video I have had yet. Now I know I need to work on my starter. I was having the same problems. I was getting week wet dough with little rise. Thank you Thank you!
Thank you for the feedback. Here’s a helpful method I use. share.icloud.com/photos/004dEExY69Pu_FNQrNjOPAZNA
I'm pretty new to this, and this video tells me *all* my loaves thus far have been underproved. I tend to shrug my shoulders and push on if I can't make my timing work with the starter/dough's timing. Great info here which I will use immediately- thanks! Regardless, I'm happy I always follow the advice of *Bake the Bread*. Fresh bread out of the oven always tastes good! (Still... I have sliced loaves from Tartine bakery SF in my freezer, so I know what it should look like😃)
Thanks!
This was an excellent lesson! I never realized that you had to make your leaven when your starter was at its peak. Nothing I have ever read tells you that. Also, that you need to use your leaven at its peak, though going by the overnight timing in Tartine, I assume it catches it at the right time.
Thanks! Yes, Tartine uses the leaven pre-peak, which is Ok too. You don’t want to be past peak.
You make the most thorough most educational most helpful video among hundreds of thousands of CZcams videos on sourdough.
Thank you SO much!!!
Thank you for the feedback!
Exactly explained in an objective way how gluten and fermentation interplaying! I gone though an exactly similar dough yesterday, it did rise but not opened up nice with large crumbs and dense small crumbs. Taste not good, texture is so gummy. I also noticed when doing shaping some areas were rising higher and some not. Obviously the activities of yeast (or perhaps lactic bacteria) is not even over the dough. I have many failed cases but did have few success before. All I can think of a dough like this is weak starter! The leaven I was using, grown 3 times in 7hrs 26C environment. Like what you said I lie to myself when I want to move on. I did sees small bubbles but I thought grown 3 times means ok. In fact leaven just like a pre vision of the dough, the rise is not an indicator of proper yeast fermentation it can be just lactic gas. My bread rise is because I incorporated air during folding. Weak starter / leaven NOTHING can be done. I tasted, done the biopsy and trashed. Then I searched 'weak starter' and your sharing came up. THANK YOU SO SO SO MUCH. Your video is not like the others, control factors are all told. No drama no bullshit. I definite love it and subscribed!
Thank you for the feedback. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney,com Lots of additional content there.
Well done on the educational video Tom! Thanks... I am underproofing here for sure! Cheers! 🤘
Thank you!
Hi Tom,
thank you very much for your highly educational content. I really enjoy your in depth explanations while using a very comprehensive vocabulary. With the help of your videos I've managed to understand the tartine method in more detail than described in the book. I have followed the recipe with a few variations. I have been using my nice and active starter that I feed with one third of rye flour and two thirds of whole wheat flour. Although the flour shouldn't be changed, I was quite confident on using it because of it's proven activity. The rest of the recipe was used as you and the book have asked for. I have tracked and adjustedthe temperature throughout the entire process. That helped a lot as well as the so called smell test. I had to use a different baking setup as my oval shaped banneton baskets didn't support the size of my 28cm diameter dutch oven. I've been using a baking stone that I pre heated along side a vessel filled with sauna stones. The stones were covered in boiling water when I put in the loaf in order to create steam. I was able to get a nice oven spring and an open crumb with few fool's crumbs. What I was not able to achieve was a nice ear. I have been baking quite a few loaves before and I have never achieved that goal. I've tried to score in different ways but I somehow don't get there. I've sprayed the top of the loaf with a little water before the bake to keep the outside wet. My guess it that that may not have been the best idea. What are your thoughts on that? If you like I could share my spreadsheet and some pictures of the baking process for further audit. Thanks a lot again for the time and effort you put in those videos. I thoroughly enjoy them. Cheers from the Berlin Germany beginner's basement baking institute aka my kitchen :)
Thank you very much for the detailed feedback! Not getting the ear is one of the most challenging things to diagnose because I always have seemed to get them on my loaves right from the start. Even with all my crazy experiments, they are still very persistent, so I primarily attribute them to the flour (strong bread flour with at least 12.5% protein) and my baking environment (Dutch oven). I know it is quite difficult to get an ear without the use of a Dutch oven. Keep trying more heat, steam and tighter shaping, and/or creating more layers in bulk fermentation (through coil folding). In my series, “Impact of Bulk Fermentation on Open Crumb, you will see the coil folding technique used. If you are using the steam tray, you should not need to spray the loaf, but I don’t think it should hurt. I’d first suggest trying a completely different strong bread flour to see if that makes a difference. Your process sounds good. If you care to post/send photos or details I’m happy to review them in more detail. If you are on Facebook, you can contact me through Facebook Messenger. Good luck in your Berlin beginners basement baking institute! 😀
@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks for the quick and detailed answer. I will try to replicate the bake the next time with the help of your tips. I have been using some 13% proteine manitoba flour alongside some whole wheat flour that my mother in law brought me from a small mill in south Germany. The list of ingredients and temperature shall be as close to the last bake as possible. I will also use a round shaped banneton so i can fit the loaves into the dutch oven. I think it should also be a good idea to asses the impact of baking technique on the crust and ear. I will bake four half sized loafs. I will bake one on the plain stone and one on the stone with steam. The other two will go in the dutch oven. One will bake with some additional water sprayed on top and in the bottom of the oven and the last loaf will go in as it is called for in the recipe. If you like you can add me on facebook via the following link facebook.com/kolbe.robert/. If you are interested, i can keep you up to date :) I wish you a nice start for the upcomming week. Cheers rob.
Still watching but can tell this is a great informative episode.. thank you coach 🙏🏼
Thank you for the feedback. Episode 3 is excellent also.
At 25:55, Tom gives you that "I'm disappointed in you, you know better," face as he describes lying to yourself about fermentation being done. So true. Talk about karma: as he spoke That Very Sentence, my oven timer went off, and my loaf, proofed & retarded after just 15% rise after 12hrs at 72F, finished baking with a mediocre ovenspring. I'm psychologically scarred by overproofing most of my early bread so now it's hard for me to stay strong and patiently wait for the correct percent rise. I'll need to seek counseling.
The struggle is real. But I have learned one thing - “A life lived in fear of over-proofing is a life half-lived.”
The best loaves live on the edge of overproofing.
I absolutely love your methodology, these videos are one of a kind! Super informative and interesting, I feel like I should be paying you something.
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.
Very instructive video. I learned a lot. Thank you.
Thank you. Also, check out my website at thesourdoughjourney.com
Glad I found this, been going nuts figuring out why I have a gummy bread and it’s a weak starter all along.
This was a breakthrough. Check out Episode 6 of this series for the rest of the story…
@@thesourdoughjourney appreciate all the time and effort for the testing. I’ve been half tempted to go that route after few failed loaves after making good loaves previously. I think I let my starter sit in the fridge to long. Working my way through your series.
More than helpful
Thank you.
Thanks for a great video Tom. I have been struggling with proofing lately. The dough doesnt rise well, even with 26C and I have weak gluten structure in the end. Thought it was overproofing or my flour. So i did some experiments, but it didnt really help. Now this video gives me the answer! I knew my starter wasnt super active, but I thought that it didnt matter in the end. Now I know why it takes so long, why the dough is slack and why i have bad oven spring. Thanks! will work on activating my starter better before baking :) Gitta
The is for the feedback. Check out the first part of Episode 6 in this series and it shows how I really strengthened my starter.
You have AWESOME videos
Thank you. 🙏
All my loaves look like these. Thank you so much for this video, now I finally understand what's happening!
Check out Episode 6 in this series. I demonstrate how to strengthen a weak starter.
I love your diagrams... Great video, I am really enjoying your work.
Thank you very much.
You are the best!
Thanks!
thanks! I learnt a lot from your videos.
Thank you for the feedback.
Much respect for posting the video nonetheless, for the sake of the lessons to be learned. Even at the risk of tarnishing the good name of Sourdough Baking Academy Internationale of Cleveland!
It happens to the best of us. This is how we all learn.
Science matters ! Thanks Tom ...
Indeed. It does.
I would love to see the same experiment with a more mature levain. In my experience the starter ripeness doesn’t make a difference, but how active your leaving is when used to make the dough.
I am shooting a new video now with a much stronger leaven. Will publish in a few days. Also see Episode 1 which was a similar experiment with stronger leaven.
I really like these but i would love a short summary in text format
Thanks. With all of these videos, you can go to the “comparison of loaves” section and watch thru the end. I always recap the experiment there or in the final summary. I’m also planning to write summaries of each of these videos and post them on my website.
Question. How are you able to do al of this without getting flour, starter and dough all over your black shirts? 😊. When simply feeding my starter, I end up covered with starter all over my clothes ....Well done with keeping everything off of your clothing !
Thanks. I have an open kitchen (connected to living room) so I really try to keep my flour under control or it goes everywhere.
The curse of weak starter suggests a cure of compensation with MORE of it. Even if the starter is fine, why not use a higher fraction of starter, notionally to shorten the fermentation, and rise? I've been successful using up to 50% starter (...by mass ratio to flour, and compensating to hold hydration constant), then continuing with your bulk-o-matic cutoff per f(dough temp). Elsewhere a FAQ suggests that high starter fraction will be too acidic, breaking down structure before completing fermentation. Can you say a little more about that? It seems fermentation is "just like" brewing the starter writ large. I'd like to understand the difference.
It’s a risky tradeoff. By using more starter, you’re increasing the initial,acid load and lactic acid bacteria population. The acidity is what causes the “weakness” of the yeast. Check out my new video on Acidic starters.
If you provided the barnyard with unlimited green fields, the cow : raptor : vinegar quantities would still be unchanged during the first couple hours because procreation would be population limited, not resource limited, would it not? In that case, the initial well fed starter is no different from the entire dough, is it not? In other words if we catch the starter just before peak, when it hasn't been inhibited by acid have we not avoided the risk? Thus, doubling the starter, I'd save a doubling time on the bulk fermentation. Maybe I'm missing something, seeing the starter as a little loaf in microcosm. If we baked the starter when it peaks, wouldn't it be good bread?@@thesourdoughjourney
My kitchen is 68° and I’ve over fermented at 5.5 hours. Just FYI for anyone who cares to share pearls of wisdom.
That seems really quick. What is your dough temperature? Are you mixing it with warm water? Is the dough rising and falling in that time?
If you are on Facebook, you can messenger me there directly and I can try to help diagnose your issue.
The Sourdough Journey I am on Facebook but can’t find you. I looked up ‘the sourdough journey’ and Tom Cucuzza- there is one in Cleveland but I’m sure it isn’t you. Maybe another link in your description?
@@ashleycohen7774 Tom Cucuzza Cleveland is me.
Also, it might matter how much starter are you using in relation to the rest of the dough.
Please link your other vids in the description🙏
Done. Thanks.
Tom, thank you for your very formative video. My question is related to bulk fermentation. I live in Canada and winters are cold. My home is at 19 degrees on an average day. I am bulk fermenting for5 to 6 hours but the temperature is not where it should be. Any suggestions?
Go for higher percentage rise. There is guidance here. thesourdoughjourney.com/the-mystery-of-percentage-rise-in-bulk-fermentation/
You're a scientist.
Thank you. 🙂
Fascinating experiment with an unexpected lesson! Could you clarify one thing? Do you start counting time from when you first mix the dough? Or from when you add the salt?
Thank you. In all of these experiments, I start the clock when I add the starter. Recipes are inconsistent in the use of the term "bulk fermentation," but the "fermentation" process always starts as soon as you add the starter, so that is what I do here for consistency.
Hi is there a way to make the crust softer as I do not like the crush too hard Thanks
Try adding a tablespoon of olive oil to the mix. Also leave the lid on the Dutch oven longer. And wrap the loaf in a kitchen towel after it comes out of the oven. These all help.
Great video, are you starting a business lol!...Ill buy the Assessment Criteria slide!
Maybe once I get it perfected. I’m still testing it out in this series.
I just got an idea! Cant one see bulkfermentation as one Giant feeding? I mean when you feed your starter with an ammount of water and flour and you know that it us peaking some 5 hours later. Pretend now that the flour and water that is the dough is a "feeding" It is basicly a giant feeding +salt. If one can translate the time it takes with a say 1:2:2 or whatever feeding and revaluate this to the ammount of ratio that is the dough? If the dough is kept at the same temp and hydration as the starter, it could be possible to calculate bulkfermentation time this way? Because the rising of a newly fed starter until it reaches its peak is basicly the same as a rising dough, but in a larger scale, is it not? You understand how i think here? Maybe one can calculate how long the perfect bulkfermentation this way? I dunno, but i often likes to think outside the box
Yes, that is exactly what it is. I often think of recipes in these terms. However, your starter does not include salt, and the hydration ratio of bread recipes is usually lower than 100% (which is a common starter ratio). But I am working on some rough rules of thumb based on this concept.
@@thesourdoughjourney Yes, do that. Very intresting!
When do you begin measuring the % rise with your tape? Do you place your labels after the 4th stretch and fold as it seems here?
I measure from the level after all the ingredients are mixed. That is the starting level in milliliters. I mark the tape before I put it on the bowls, then I stick it on after the 4th stretch and fold, but I’m measuring from the original level. I just don’t stick stick the tape on until I’m done with the stretch and folds because the tape can fall off when I handle it with wet hands. But I’m measuring from the original level which I marked and then removed the tape.
Tom, I think I have definitely experienced what you have by using a weak starter. From a technical perspective, what do you look for as signs that a starter is at its peak? Is it as simple as approximating it’s physical peak height or are there more subtle clue one can hone in on?
It is really looking at the height, however, sometimes a make a thinner wetter mix (more water) and the strength of the starter is really evident in the bubble activity on the top of the starter (even if it is not rising). I like to change up my hydration from time to time and do a slightly drier or wetter mix to see how the starter reacts to the changes.
@@thesourdoughjourney That’s what I look for too. Is it best to catch it before it begins to subside or does it matter much? I’m thinking slightly before peak or as it peaks since I’m assuming when it starts to cave there are fewer active yeast. Does that make sense?
I’ve had this exact problem. My leaven rose 30 percent over night. Mix in the morning and a few hours later I felt like the dough was at that “stall” stage. It did smell kinda vinegary. I don’t understand why this happened my starter was on top top health. I’ve made better loaves using my starter at peak or near and slightly after with really good results? Can someone explain this? I want to try this recipe again but now I’m hesitant. I’ve been using a hybrid with this recipe with waiting for my starter to reach peak and proceed from there.
Your starter can become acidic over time. Occasionally you need to deacidify it. It is like routine maintenance. Here is a method. thesourdoughjourney.com/how-to-strengthen-and-deacidify-a-weak-starter-the-peak-to-peak-method/
@@thesourdoughjourney I thought using a high feeding ratio, using a starter that hasn’t peaked and keeping it at low temps all reduce the acidity when using it? So how does it become acidic if all these are right?
Even when doing everything right, the acidity still grows over time. It needs an occasional “reset.”
I love the idea of BF in a beaker. What volume would you recommend for proofing a 400-500g flour loaf? Dunno if 1000ml would suffice...
The milliliter conversion factor is about 1.5, so 500g of flour weight turns into about 750ml after mixing water and starter. So you'd want to go up to 1,000 ml for a 33% rise on 750ml. The taller slender beakers are a little tricky to get the dough out of without really mangling it, so I recommend the style shown here. Maybe twice as tall as it is high. You also can't do stretch and folds once its in the beaker, so I usually do 4 or 5 stretch and folds then move it to the beaker for the end, where most of the rise occurs. I've also done recipes with no handling at all and just let all the BF happen in the beaker. But the vast majority of the rise comes in the last 15% of total BF duration.
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks!
I use these nifty lidded stainelss steel bowls with etched gradations right in the bowl, if you use a clear bowl, you can always mark amounts on the outside (measured with water before you put dough on it, if you mark with Sharpie, put clear tape over it so the marker doesn't come off). Another trick I've heard (from The Bread Code) is to take just enough of your dough to cover the bottom of a jar and use that as your reference for how much the dough rises.
@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 I've tried the Bread Code trick but for some reason it didn't work - I guess it was because my dough is way less hydrated than his (I can barely get to 65% with the flour I have available in my town). I've found graduated beakers on AliExpress for like $2 so I think I'm gonna go for them ;)
Im curious, how short was your levain build? Im loving your videos!
Thank you. I started this leaven in the morning and baked in the afternoon. I believe it went about 6 hours. I’ll check my notes. It was a 1:10:10 build and I knew I was rushing it.
50% rise does it mean overproof?
If you watch Episode 4 you will see examples of bulk fermentation at 50% which I would call “fully proofed,” not necessarily overproofed. 50% can actually make a nice loaf, but it is right on the edge of overproofing.
A professional baker told me they refer to bread formulas, not bread recipes. It made sense to me since they have to use mathematical calculation. I'm with you Tom, I believe in science. I would say most people chiming in here believe in science too, that's why they're following you. I'd even bet these people know how to vote, too, just because they do believe in science. Oh no, let's not believe our lying eyes! Do you think there is any chance the starter conspired against you? Probably not, we don't believe in mass conspiracies either!
Thank you. As I cut into that third loaf you can see my brain working like a supercomputer to figure out what happened. It took me a few seconds to get to the conclusion it was the starter. This is one of the few videos where it did not record every step (I usually do it for reasons like this), but I could see in my mind exactly what happened. My starter was well past peak when I made the leaven and I was overconfident in the strength of it. The mind can play tricks on us.
Wish you videos were a bit shorter.
Thanks. You can just go to the summary of each video where I recap the results. Then if you want to watch the full experiment, go back to the beginning. I put the chapter breaks in for that reason. And you can speed me up to 1.5x on the CZcams settings.
Love these videos, Tom. I've only got 4 sourdough bakes under my belt now, but none have turned out as poorly as any of these at least. Also, I've never had a bulk fermentation under 10 hours... except maybe my first one... but that was under-proofed at a 50% rise, and baked immediately. I should mention I'm not using my proofing container to gauge my rise, instead I take a small sample of dough after the 30 minute fermentolyse & pack it into a small measuring cup. That way, if I deflate my dough later, I still have a reliable fermentometer.
Bake #2, I aimed for a doubling in the fermentometer, followed by a retard. Result was better, but crumb was still damp, oven spring wasn't great.
Bake #3, I aimed for a 50% rise again, but a warmer ferment to get there, followed by an overnight retard, and I browned it cooler and longer in hopes to dry out the crumb. I wouldn't say it was underproofed, but the crumb was really damp this time even though I baked the sucker good and dark. I was also getting the occasional disgusting whiff of feet while eating it, which told me I need to fix my starter. Following this, I converted from a 1:1:1 feeding ratio over to a stiff starter, feeding 1:2:1 twice per day for a week.
Then bake #4 gave me my best result. Bulk ferment still took forever (cool temperature, mind you ~20 degrees C), and I made the mistake (or was it?) of performing a series of coil folds in the morning when my fermentometer was around a 50% rise - it just seemed like it needed it after all that relaxation time, although I mechanically kneaded the dough the night before AND performed a series of stretch & folds. (And yes, the late coil folds definitely evened out the crumb). After the coil folds, we were at a 65ish% rise, then I called bulk fermentation over when the fermentometer had doubled two hours later (~13 hours total). Divide, pre-shape, rest, shape, and counter-proof for 90 minutes (fermentometer: double +25%), then into the freezer to stiffen up a bit before scoring. Both loaves plumped up nicely, but STILL NO EAR! What the hell, Tom? Whyyyyyyy? I use an OLFA razor, and in every case, the dough pulls and drags while I score, even when I grease it up in olive oil. The dough seems to want to fill itself back in where I've scored it. I'm working with 70% hydration, 25% whole wheat, and both flours are above 13% protein.
I should tell you, my dough sample will go on rise to more than quadruple before collapsing, and it's not until then I can even detect the funky feety bacterial smell.
Now I need to back up and tell you about my starter. Days 2 and 3, huge activity, then nothing but flat stink to the end of week 3, with no signs of any evolution or anything remotely indicative that something was changing. So I cheated. I put in a pinch of Fleishmann's Traditional yeast, fed it for another week and started baking. It seems strong. Doubles in 4-6 hours in my cool kitchen, triples in 8 hours (1:1:1 feeding). At 1:2:1, it's a little slower, but I'm using half as much starter as flour. At 2:2:1, I see a doubling in 4-6 hours. Could I have brewed a monster in those 3 stinky weeks? Is there a creature in my starter that shouldn't be there? Is that why even after 3 weeks, no yeast was able to get established without my Cheaty Cheaterson intervention? I really don't think I'm over-proofing, but then I've never done a window pane test on my loaf in the banneton like you did here, lol. That just seems like a mean thing to do. Poor loaf. I can tell you my dough doesn't seem any stickier after bulk fermentation than it did after working it early on though. What do you make of all this?
By adding commercial yeast to your starter, you’ve created a bit of a monster. The microbiology is complicated. Some percentage of sourdough starters actually contain the same strain of yeast as found in commercial yeast. However, it occurred there “naturally” ao it self selected based on the chemistry and biology of the culture. You added it to a relatively hostile environment (commercial yeast doesn’t do well in the acidity of a natural sourdough starter), and the population/balance was also unnaturally influenced. A “pinch” of yeast contains an unnaturally large number of yeast cells. Over time your starter will rebalance to a “natural” state, but I’d probably recommend starting a new one without the commercial booster. It will always be a question mark when assessing your outcomes otherwise.
Regarding the stinky smell, that is a natural smell in some sourdough starters, but it is uncommon to smell that in your bread.
Lastly, you are keeping good records and measuring % rise and temps, but I suggest watching Episode 8 of this series. The percent rise is inextricably linked to the dough temperature. A 30% rise at 80F is the equivalent of a 65-75% rise at 70F, for example.
You’re on the right track. Keep experimenting.
@@thesourdoughjourney
Thank you VERY much. I really appreciate you taking the time to read my long winded inquiry and your response.