Jerusalem in the Roman World
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- čas přidán 4. 08. 2024
- In this episode of the Toldinstone Podcast, I discuss Jerusalem's place in the classical world with Professor Simon Goldhill, author of "Jerusalem: City of Longing" and "The Temple of Jerusalem."
Chapters:
0:00 Thinking about Jerusalem
2:38 Alexander the Great
4:51 Seleucids and Maccabees
7:35 Jerusalem as setting and fiction
9:40 Roman perspectives on the Jews
15:41 Herod's Temple as a Roman building
20:00 Roman culture and the Jewish elite
23:15 Remembering the Temple
27:54 The Bar Kokhba Revolt
30:21 Christian Jerusalem
33:15 Julian and the Temple
34:30 The place of Judaism in the Classics
It felt like a privilege to listen
The older guy didn't seem interested in giving a cohesive story; he was disrespectful to his listeners. On an ego trip?
This podcast just flew by! I was surprised when it ended during what felt like a halfway point, only to realize I had been listening for 40 minutes! Very interesting topic and guest you had on today.
Thank you for this very interesting stream. I really enjoyed your guest, and you chose a good topic. I learned so much new tonight.
Great discussion, thanks
Loving this new Channel. I had no idea so much was known about the Roman and Greek world!
Hi Garrett, I really appreciated this discussion. It was highly enlightening, one of your best. Simon's insights were very helpful to me to understand how Rome regarded Judea. So much we have comes from the Bible, but I am very interested in the historic perspective about Judea nd the Jews. Thank you so much for putting this interview together. I hope Simon has a CZcams site. He is so interesting.
Hooray! You’re back!
Fantastic interview.
Enjoyment to listen
Great guest, great topic, great podcast! Thank you
Thank you for an excellent programme and a brilliant guest.
Great episode!
This was awesome. What perspective!
He has a lovely modulated voice.
I watched a CZcams video about glass blowing, and someone from the Corning Museum mentioned that the earliest evidence of glass blowing is from Jerusalem. That really fascinated me because it may be the only time I've heard anything about ancient Jerusalem that doesn't involve religion. It often seems that people forget it's an actual town where people live and work and do normal secular things.
Excellent interview
Fantastic thank you
It's a shame that Prof Goldhill's audio was so bad, I really struggled to make out what he was saying half the time.
Was good enough for me I understood abt 98.6% of what he said
That's what the closed captions are for in the upper right corner, appearing (CC) when you touch that area. I found it worked for me, especially when the prof on the right spoke softly, as if out of breath, the captions pretty much filled me in.
I read this comment and thought, "oh no!" but then I listened and had no problem understanding. Maybe audio could have been better, but it was certainly good enough.
I don't notice any problem with his audio.
I've always found it intriguing that anywhere Jews have lived or live now there is no definitive architectural style that clearly denotes a synagogue. Sometimes mainly within European or North American synagogues certain symbols such as lions and torahs can be noted (which isn't at all kosher I presume). Stained glass windows set in a Star of David design can be seen but you can also see that in Christian churches. There is sometimes though a certain 'Saracenic' style that ends up - to me at least - referencing, oddly enough, St. Mark's in Venice. Was there a cultural/religious decision to not emulate 'the Temple' of memory? Or, for security in Christian or Muslim countries, was it better to be non-descript? Yet when Iived in Barbados, I used to drive by this building in Bridgetown that gave me that Saracenic vibe. Not one of my Bajan colleagues knew what it was other than it had once been The Jockey Club. I found out it was the oldest synagogue in the Americas, the original building having been built in 1654, then rebuilt in the 1830's.
No one remembered the look of the Original temple, the 1st Temple. The scale in number, was recorded. The 2nd temple began at least 200 years later after the Babylonian captivity. 2nd temple culture at the time of Herod was presumably Hellenistic and Roman. Judaism today was formed after Christianity, sometime after the destruction of the 2nd temple. The Saracenic style of course was based on Roman building technique - the arch for example.
@@vonroretz3307 That sums it up - architecturally. Thanks.
@cerbus: uou have an interest, now read and educate yourself so yiu won't ask dumb questions.
Since the topic of the Bar Kochba revolt came up, do you have any plans for a video about Babatha? I just find it fascinating to have records of a relatively ordinary person from the time.
I’m well versed on this subject
I'm curious about the production set up here. Why don't your guests need to wear headphones to cancel echo from hearing Garrett from his speakers near his mic?
Okay, I understand what Goldhill is saying about Alexander most likely not actually visiting the high priest in Jerusalem but wasn't Alexander famous for going out of his way to meet spiritual people of interest? He went out of his way in Egypt to go through the desert to meet the Oracle of Siwa, the very same Oracle who named him Pharaoh of Egypt. That is a very treacherous journey to a backwater in the middle of the Sahara desert. I can very much see Alexander visiting Jerusalem.
Another word for my vocabulary: "exiguous". If I were not in the process of starting to learn a language I might have missed it.
Exegesis
Interesting topic, but at times I had trouble understanding the guest because to my ear he didn't enunciate well at times and kindof mumbled multiple words quickly into one confusing inaudible jumble. I got enough info for it to be interesting and educational regardless.
21:30 ish I seen a interview with Dr Paula Fredericksen and she was saying that the helenized jews did not exclusively worship Yahweh but many Greek gods as well but Yahweh was the most important to them.
21:45
how many jews would make the journey during roman times would it be less and how many jews were throghout the known world
to jerusalem*
I’m not sure about the numbers in the whole diaspora, but I’ve heard it thrown around that Jews made up roughly 10% of the Roman Empire.
What have the Romans ever done for us?
I'm surprised to hear Hellenistic religion described as "materialistic" compared to ancient Judaism. For me cults like that of Fortuna, not to mention the views of many philosophers from Plato onwards regarding all the gods, views divinity as a highly abstract concept - akin to a force of nature rather than anything tangible. Judaism, on the other hand, which viewed Yahweh as being manifest in one particular temple is a much more specific and concrete view of religion IMO. Not to mention that the Greek myths were interpreted by the Greeks and Romans (their elite anyway) as more-or-less allegorical, while the Jewish holy texts were used as a code of law and so exercised more literal force.
All that to say that it appears to me that from ~200BC onwards, if not earlier, Greco-Roman religion was considerably abstract and theoretical; while Judaism in the same period bore a stronger resemblance to older "materialistic" faiths such as those that worshiped a spirit that resided in a particular tree (the 'tree' in this case being the Holy-of-Holies in the Temple).
But I'd be very glad to be corrected by someone who knows more if my interpretation is wrong.
Oh I thought when he said materialistic, he meant it in a modern context of being about gaining material wealth, whereas Judaism has ancient traditions around self denial and storing up wealth in heaven rather than on earth. Might have misinterpreted that
If you bothered to look, you would find plenty of examples in the Greek or Roman context in which contact with divinity is mediated thru specific sites such as sacred caves and springs, through specific objects found in nature such as trees and stones, and thru the appearence/behavior of a particular species of plants or animals. These are found even in Plato.
Note that the idea of a "religion" is a modern one. You are right that the ancient Greeks and Romans did not adhere to any religious doctrine, but neither did the ancient Jews. It is over-simple to state that the ancient Jews practiced Judaism as their "religion". As with the ancient Greeks, our theories about the "religious" beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews draw from all kinds of sources for evidence, not all of them Jewish. The archeological record is especially important for studying "religion" in the ancient Jewish context because so little writing survives.
While I certainly understand your perspective, I believe the guest’s use of the word “materialistic” in this case is more akin to the use of idolatry. Pretty much all ancient cultures used an idol of some sorts to represent their gods which is why Pompey was surprised to find nothing in the temple.
@@kdj77We don't have any material representation of god, at least we aren't supposed to.
Of course certain items that we use and have religious meaning of are being respected, but we believe that god doesn't have a physical form.
Statues of worship are forbidden, like we don't associate art with god's spirit and existence.
In the bible, some stories even speak of prophets and kings who purify the religion from such elements.
However, paintings and statues are perfectly fine if they don't present god's figure, or something religious.
That's why if you look at ancient Jewish mosaics in Israel you will see many depictions of animals, but never events or biblical figures.
I am not sure if its related to the discussion, but whatever
1:38 Why was it "in the middle of nowhere ... with no strategic importance" when the area is the crossroads of Europe and Africa? Did advances in ship technology reduce the need for the area, or was Jerusalem too far from the coast?
Also, maybe it's my old ears, but Prof. Goldhill mumbles. Very hard to understand him.
I detected a problem with the long chain of technology involved. Often when speaking over the internet to friends in the UK I abandon audio calls and start again with a better connection (I live in Australia). Video just makes the whole experience even more subject to the vagaries.
It was too far from the coast. Even in the middle ages it was Jaffa that had the more important strategic importance
Dude is so British that half of the words he says he is whispering
It más calles judea ,sólo después del rebelión de 135 con Adrián they Star to call it Palestina
They worshipped Saturn/Cronus, the child eater. Thus, they worship on the sixth day, Saturnsday. Israelites who became Christendom worship on the seventh day of the workweek, Sunday.
The Holy Bible is written in a sacerdotal coded language. It conceals the actual location of that particular "jerusalem" / fortified sacerdotal city of peace. It certainly was not where the present location is claimed. In the 4th century AD, a ruined "roman" fort was established as a "jerusalem" and constructed as a Christian city.
Likewise, all the other Biblical places are not in the ME. Biblical Egypt was not at Aeria. Aeria was renamed "Egypt" by Alexander the Great.
The accursed Biblical "Jerusalem", Biblical Galilee, Biblical Persia, Biblical Babylon, Biblical Armenia, etc. are in the West. One tiny clue: long afterward, Britain was still being addressed in correspondence as "the Isle of Syria."
The Christ was Galilean Israelite, NOT Ioudaios / ieudomite. The ieudomites tread on the city for 3.5 years. At the altar, they slaughtered and cannibalized thousands. If not for the "people of the Prince" / Christ, AKA Romans / judahites, no flesh would have survived.
😂🤣
Really wonderful conversation to evesdrop. The opening up of Academia by all this new techonology without and the woke madness within is such a blessing for us all.
"Greek and Latin sources tell me I'm bad." LOL! Does Simon even OT/Talmud? There is no greater monument to racism, xenophobia, homophobia, misogyny, anti-intellectualism and raging insecurity than in the "Jewish Holy Texts". How many THOUSANDS of citations would you like me to make :) ?
@divinelightshine That doesn't make it any less racist or xenophobic. LOL! Notice you didn't deny anything I said. Just mindless blather. I win again :)
It's a shame the professor believes a heresy is Church doctrine, any forcible compulsion is denomic, any of it is still sin, but St John Chrysostom is not incorrect himself at all. The implications stated are offensive and sacrilegious
Perhaps if Simon could speak up and take the marbles out of his mouth there would be content.
"The One Temple".......does this guy even Elephantine? Simon is about as expert and honest as a used car salesman. LOL! You can tell they both know better, but are too cowardly to say so. Such is the nature of "Modern Academia": Feelings first. Facts never.