Dune Part 2 Discussion Ft. Comicbookgirl19, Gom Jabbar Podcast, & Nerd Cookies (Ultra-Spoilers)
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- čas přidán 5. 03. 2024
- Gom Jabbar Podcast: • DUNE: PART TWO REVIEW ...
Comicbookgirl19: • Danika's DUNE 2 Review...
Nerd Cookies: • DUNE PART TWO REVIEW [... - Zábava
Chani to me did not read as a jealous, shunned lover. To me, her scenes suggested that she was grieving the loss of the man she loves in real time. As Paul comes up to the Emperor, defeats Feyd and announces his rise to the throne with Irulan as his wife, Paul the man she loves is gone, replaced by the Lisan al Gaib now Emperor of the Imperium. "You will never lose me, Paul Atreides. Not as long as you stay who you are." That's what she said to him. And yet now he's gone. Seemingly lost to her. I think we can allow her to feel that loss and grieve it. Paul does say "She'll come around." because she loves him. That's the contrast this film Chani will have. She loves Paul and yet she despises what's been done to her people through him. I think that makes her choice to still be with him all the more compelling, rather than "oh it's fine the Fremen practice polygamy."
exactly. u get it.
Yeah, she realized she got played and lied to and was rightfully pissed. Not because she “lost her man” but because he used her to subjugate her people!
Its so predictable though. Every film and show i watch now does this to female characters. They have to second guess and undermine the men every chance the writers get...
That's the dynamic I took as well: she's torn between loving Paul the man and despising the legend of Paul the messiah. I would also add that her character in the film was the natural result of not including the familial connection of her and Kynes. In the book it would be natural that chani knows of the ways of the empire and thus understands Paul's position of marrying Irulan. In this film, Chani is a pure native without this level of understanding which makes sense that she'd be upset with the events in the end.
It's so annoying how they kept reducing Chani's scene as being a scorned lover and ignoring all the build-up throughout the movie. We see as she does her friends who at first didn't believe in Paul become more and more fanatic towards him.
I just wanted to say, if it wasn't for Quinn I wouldn't be nearly as familiar of Dune as I am.
He is a fantastic communicator and ambassador of the world.
(Honestly I think he deserved to be invited to the movie premieres and be some sort of Dune expert, because I guaranty I'm not the only person who was chaperoned into Dune by Quinn)
Ditto. ❤❤❤
Me too. Quinn is the one who made me became so interested in Dune. Before Quinn the only thing I knew about Dune came from the RTS games.
I dunno, movie #3 simply can't jump to Messiah in order for it to make much sense if they're gonna try to stick to the books. Maybe movie 3 will involve the Jihad, a reconciliation woth Chani and then lead into the events of Messiah?
@@GhostRydr1172 ummmm, ok... I dunno, Messiah is way different sort of story then the first, no big coming into self realization to lead a people, just sort of stewing in the aftermath... I wonder how they'll make it and how general audiences will respond.
Idk why ppl need action when Paul's internal termoil is better than the action in dune @@robweissman5952
I didn't have a problem with angry Chani because what most people seem to be missing is the most important point about why she leaves: She promised to love him as long as he remained who he was. All that went out the window when he took the Water of Life and *changed*.
Again, he only drank the Water of Life because he loves Chani and he’d do anything to keep her alive since Paul saw her die in one of his visions
@@JarvisCosric885 Sure, but that doesn't necessarily have to matter for her. People do a lot of stuff out of love to someone else but then that person doesn't agree with it and gets angry about it. That's how humans are sometimes. Nobody has to appreciate everything a loved one does, just because the loved one claimes to do it out of love to them.
@@JarvisCosric885 We see similar thinking from Paul in the book. But every step he takes to “prevent” the jihad is actually a step towards causing it. IMO Paul seems to naively think that if he gains control or power he can stop the jihad, but every time he gains more control the Fremen become more entranced by him and more of a lethal killing force capable of universal destruction.
@JarvisCosric885 that's not true.
@JarvisCosric885 this only becomes a problem in the 2md book when Chani actually conceives.
The scene when the Emperor's ship flies over Arrakeen and the city is reflected in its hull... God, that was cool... I thought about that for like 4 hours afterward. What a wild shot.
Yeah there were tons of amazing visuals. Sadly that's the best part of the film.
I just saw Dune Part 2 and I came home to a house where no one wanted to talk about Dune. I was about to scream for the lack of having a place to vent, discuss, and celebrate. This stream with this amazing cast made my night!
Ive been actively annoying my girlfriend, co-workers, close friends, & parents about dune 🤣
As it was written
@@chrismalinowski654omg same! Felt like a freak after watching Dune bcz I became this talking machine that spoke in analogies but somehow avoided spoilers. But I wanted to discuss it so badly I was about to implode.
Love how Quinn always gives Danika her flowers, shes humble about it, but Danika really inspired a lot of people on youtube and in real life, from her popular game of thrones videos back in the day, to her esoteric chaos Magick vids, she is the goat if this niche space.
When Paul kills the Baron, he gets him on the left side of the neck and says “you died like an animal”. Is this a reference to the gom jabbar of the Baron in the book? Being that it’s a test of human/animal, and that it’s in the same spot the gom jabbar is held?
Ooooh i love this
It’s a reference to the 70s Dune movie. It’s what Paul’s sister says as she kills the baron. It’s a well remembered line because it’s a brutal line delivered with a wicked smile by an adorable 8 year old actress… and when he dies, she continues slitting the throats of half-dead soldiers.
It was truer to the books but I’ve found the changes to fall somewhere between, “appropriate” and “eh, fair enough”.
This is like the Avengers of Dune channels, love it!
Where’s my boy Secrets of Dune?!!
Aside from Quinn and Nerd Cookies i haven't heard the others lol. Will check them out though.
Assemble!!!!!!
I get that Walken could be distracting for some people, but he worked for me. He seemed out of touch and impatient. Like a guy accustomed to having things his way. But also tired and weak. It wasn't exactly how I imagined the emperor, but it makes sense to me. Also I think they're being intentional with some of the accents, so I imagine his distinctive accent fits his distinctive background and role in the story, much like Stilgar's.
The impression I got from Walken's Emperor is like at times you get a glimpse that once he was a strong and powerfull man, but now he is old and tired.
So excited. So much excitement. 19 ❤🧡🩵
He's the king. He's literally and figuratively the king.
He kind of reminded me of the Emperor from Legend of the Galactic Heroes (DNT).
A distant and out of touch leader who isn't as powerful as they are thought to be. And are in fact very mortal.
@@csabas.6342 Yeah, and unfortunately I do think it made him less formidable of an opponent to Paul. However, they focused on Feyd as the antagonist and didn’t really have time to develop the emperor, so I’m okay with it
Walken as the Empire in vacuum was pretty good IMO. He's the contemplative weak/scared emperor from the books I think. The problem is Walken himself is such an iconic cultural figure that we can't get past it. I couldn't get past it, "That's not the Emperor, it's fucking Christopher Walken." I think that's a casting choice that will be better for future audiences who haven't grown up watching him in a million movies.
Walken did the choice of weapon music video. “ Walk without rhythm to avoid the worm.”
Villeneuve's secret: he wants to wait 15-20 years before he does 'Children, then keep the same lead actor as Paul but organically grown up; it will carry a special kind of gravitas.
What? 😆
😵💫
Ivan Reitman’s kid is actually making Ghostbusters sequels, with the children of Buster.
But what if god forbid something happens to chalamet or zendaya then all Tyne waiting for nothing. I’d rather 5-10 years just in case 😂
@@andrewlake7888 spoiler:
chani is already dead by the start of ‘Children
ohhhh for som reason i thought he was talking about messiah but yeah i mean with children of dune the preacher dosent even technically need to be chalametas so much time passed paul wouldve aged considerably. i haven't read children only watched mini series @@colinreynolds01
Children is only 9 years after Messiah
This is glorious. My favorite Dune specialists. Danika and Quinn together was what we needed.
I think Chani moved the blue thing to her arm just as a form of battle dress, she was going to wear a helmet and such so she tied it around her arm where people could still see it.
Paul’s a passive character in the first movie. He’s a passive character in the book - until he’s in the desert. I use Dune in my screenwriting classes to talk about passive vs. active characters. Also about how books and movies are different things. (I loved both part 1 and part 2.)
This is kinda why I'm confused when they say that Timmy's acting is better in the second movie. My understanding is that even if this is two movies, they're actually two parts of one story and Paul is growing through out two movies. With Paul's story, of course he's more powerful and moving in the second movie so being somewhat 'boring' in the first movie works since we have a character that's yet to be known and is learning.
@@christinac9086 it is better, but he is supposed to be timid and unsure of himself in the first part and he is basically adapting to a new world/on the run for the entire first movie.
To add to the discussion of Chani’s blue armband, in the first book Fremen wear it as a sign of mourning. After Chani finds out her father passed away, she wears a blue scarf tied around her arm. I think in the movie it’s a visual representation of her grieving Usul and their past relationship while Paul changes and assumes his new role. This is also driven home by her saying in the movie that she’ll love him as long as he is himself.
the Emperor should have been Mads Mikelson, and i really stand by that.
x2. walken was too old and tired.
Micheal Fassbender would be my top choice. Has the gravitas and red hair just like in the book, and isn't that old.
That would have been an excellent choice!!
Right??? Walken was too old imo like he could be blown away by the wind
I’m thinking they should have gone with someone of Middle Eastern, South East Asian heritage. I don’t think of an Anglo actor when I hear Padasha Emperor Shadam the IV. My pick would have been Bollywood actor Shah Rukh Khan. See his performances in Devdas and most recently Jawan. He would have been a powerful and regal Emperor.
I know everyone is excited about Dune right now because of the deserved success of the film, but I do think we should be more cautious in demanding and expecting more 'content' in this franchise. I feel like Dune is only succeeding right now because it is reminding people of the power and value of a grand cinematic experience. The overextension into tv series, animated shows, and other media is what has degraded and maybe even doomed Star Wars and Marvel. I would rather get big budget, tent pole, important films every 2-3 years than some half backed tv show on Max.
Anyway what a great panel! Quinn and Danika are my favorite Dune creators 🥰 I'm secondhand very happy for Quinn for this collaboration because he's talked up Danika's Dune Club throughout the years!
Ick, I hate the C word!
Content *shudders*
I agree. Keep the quality.
i disagree. Star Wars fell flat in the theaters and has actually excelled in multiple TV shows like Clone Wars, Rebels, and Mandalorian.
Andor, a Star Wars TV show, is better than any big screen Star Wars movie since 1983
@@Saberwolf2112 excited it's getting a physical release!
Also funny how Stellan Skarsgard has been back n forth between Dune and SW for the past 5 years!
Saying Zendaya was "around that" when she straight up grew up on Disney channel.. I'm.. like.... Rue was what solidified her as a legitimate actor because it's so far removed from her character.
*I'm not gunna say it bruh* 💀
Christopher Walken is not just “being Christopher Walken” in this film. (BTW, he and Javier Bardem are the only Oscar winners for acting in this film.) His performance is subdued, not exaggerated-no mustache twirling and no “Walkenisms”. He portrays the Emperor as a weakened ruler, past his prime. With some melancholy. Walken is a deserved Oscar-awarded actor, a pro, and a legend. Within limited screen time, he graces “Dune 2” as a good member of an ensemble team-with stardom, class, and dignity. A cinema king playing a king.
Also recall back in the day Walken’s dance in Fatboy Slim’s “Weapon Choice”. The song says, “walk without rhythm and it won't attract the worm”-pretty much predicting his future association with “Dune 2”!!!
I think Walken's eyes and face did the best acting. But his voice and vocal mannerisms I can see how they pulled some people out of it. I saw this with my mom and she straight up giggled with the way he delivered his lines. I think for some people it is just his voice. That being said, I was fine with it overall, and his expressions were great.
Daniel Day-Lewis = Emperor. What a miss.....sad.
I loved Walken's performance until the end. Then he just became classic Christopher Walken. The line delivery on "Baron" immediately pulled me out, I laughed out loud
The Zendaya take is wild lol. I couldnt disagree more and i think most people would.
same boat as you
Chani's "problem" with Paul becoming Emperor is so explicitly spelled out for the viewer I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone could miss it. The film literally has her tell Paul she doesn't want him to lust for power. And then he does exactly that. Seemingly flaunting it. She feels betrayed because he's so fully embraced the fanatics to serve his own ends. Like there's an entire scene where they discuss it.
Top center guy gets it.
Exactly! Strange how this is confusing for them …
Ikr plus he's marrying someone else and abandoning her.
The heartbreaking scene of Chani feeling everything at once, the (perceived betrayal) and fighting back the very tears she was trained all her life not to shed. Insane acting from Zendaya.
I was typing up my comment and read this. Couldn't have explained it better. Zendaya did great! Christopher Walken's performance was the only one where I just didn't believe he was all powerful Emperor. I think the faithful book fans have a bias that makes it harder to see the movie as it stands. It's not a bad thing, just that idealized characters are always better in your imagination as you are reading than any movie could attempt to replicate.
@@xHarpyx this plus a very loud group of crazy "anti-woke girl boss spotters" who just hate the basic idea of Chani not "standing by her man".
As someone who hasn’t read the book, Walken’s casting and appearance made me understand why he felt threatened by Leto. Maybe that’s what Denis was going for
No adaptation of Dune is ever going to be the movie you create in your head when you read the book, and for that reason alone there will never be a film/tv version that pleases everyone. This is Denis Villeneuve's interpretation of Dune, not mine or any other fan, and while you agree or desagree with his choices you have to respect the integrity of the work he puts on screen. I loved it because, although I missed some things and disagreed with others, overall I feel this is faithful to the essence of the book. Having a director that is also a fan and understands the source material is the important thing. I haven't felt this happy and excited about a beloved book adaptation since The Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Bi lal kaifa
The visuals and sfx are og Hollywood at its best. Somehow I never had the sense of immersion that SW1977 or Bladerunner had. The bandits living in the desert so desperate they must drink their own pee, yet they have lazer guns, guided missiles, high explosives etc. The south is even more barren but somehow supports millions of ppl. And, what is the logic of sword fighting when you have guns? SW gets around this by only having elite warriors with sabers while common soldiers have guns.
I went on Sunday afternoon. The theater was 1/3 full, 19+ audience.
@@PeacefulRallyCar-pw3csWhen it comes to warfare in Dune, I mean that's just how it is and I don't blame it since it's not precisely a military novel. The dynamics between shields and how they nullify most ranged combat makes for the most part sense, as I said this doesn't seem to be the main focus of Dune as a whole.
As for the Fremen it is mentioned that despite the very harsh living conditions on Arrakis, they adapted to coexist with their environment in those conditions. They are not desperate, they have adapted to live like that and it is mentioned in Paul's visions that an open war is what brings famine to the south, in a normal day to day they probably just get by with enough food as they have for centuries. And they do show that their weapons and ammunition are mostly stolen from the Harkonnen.
The current war in ukr demonstrates how difficult it is to maintain firepower even in modern conditions, but I digress..
There are a few recorded interviews with Herbert that thankfully have survived. He was hippy ecologist improvising off the land. His world view was less technocratic and more eco socialist.
Vill changed the story. Not a little bit, but a LOT. He broke the characters, the political intrigue, and pretty much all of the depth.
It's a grand spectacle, but the Herbert political intrigue is all gone. Watered down for stupid people.
You guys seem to be blaming Zendaya for a problem that Denis created. All the characters are flat all the time. That's why the romance was a little flat. Everything is flat. I don't get why that was laid on her and not the actor or director. That's obviously the biggest critique of the whole movie is there wasn't emotion in it. So I don't get how that can be laid on her. It's not like the rest of the movie was filled with emotions and feeling and only her scenes aren't. Its the whole movie has no heart moments, it's all eyes and head.
I agree Tim was also bad until the third act but even on the 3rd act he was just shouting and yelling I certian parts of his role. True leadership is not loud but calm and collective.
Vill stated directly that he intended to make sure people don't like Paul by the end.
That's a rewriting of the story. And an intent to destroy all of the social drama... What a great way to enshittify a story!!!
How do we find connection to the anti-hero story of Messiah, if Vill already made Paul unlikable? And nobody connected with him to begin with?
Zendaya was clearly acting to the writing and direction she was given.
I'm more mad that OP didn't realize the story change and blamed the actress, that sucks. She deserves more consideration than that. Always blame the directors and producers, always! It's their job to make sure what's make final cut is good.
As a Dune daddy its great to see you kids giving it so much love.
The comments on Zendaya in this episode are so out of line. She has so much range. She is Hollywood's biggest actress right now. I think the short hair lady is really not an informed person. They admitted they aren't in touch themselves.
She's awful and annoying in this movie. Her acting range is limited, no need to kiss her ass. It's just an opinion.
@@MartinRiggs1820 Its an awful opinion. She's a good actress.
they do say that spice extends life in the first movie, its near the beginning of the movie while paul is studying filmbooks about arrakkis just before duke letos ceremony starts
Yeah he mentions this stuff briefly in dune part 1
I didn’t even know this collab was even possible?!! My favorite CZcamsrs together, some spice dreams do come true!
Kyle McLaughlin should have been the Emperor
Hopefully he can return as Paul in Children of Dune
They’re saving him to be the god emperor!
@@L0U_ZER that is for James Mccavoy.
That would have been amusing for sure
you mean Maclachlan, it's a great 💡
Shoutout to Abu for keeping it real.
I liked him as the emperor. He was like i imagined him in the books. Not intimidating, or a force of power. He's in power because of the sardaukar and because the bene gesserit want it. Loved Stilgar though.
Shaddam wasn't a passive character, he's a scheming and active force in the book, however he is revealed to be merely a small fish in a large pond, being outmanuvered by the Bene Geserit, Paul, and the Spacing Guild. That being said his portrayal wasn't the most egregious omission and largely works.
I agree with what you said. But even with that in mind, I never took his character very seriously in the book to be honest, and the book to movie translation worked very well for me. My main "problem" would be that I wished there were more scenes with him, either talking with the Spacing Guild or the Bene Geserit.@@isaiahsmith7123
@@mayzer2061 That would have done more for his character, interacting with Rev. Mother Mohaim and the Spacing guild. Also having Count Has Hasimir Fenring as his counterbalance would show how out of his depth he really was.
Guy centre of the top row was the MVP of this. Enjoyable discussion.
45:54 Carl Jung. He's canon because Earth's history is canon in DUNE. 😉❤️
46:30 oh and it's a subtle distinction. But Paul doesn't say "She'll come around." He actually said "She'll come to understand. I've seen it."
The funny thing about this line is, all of us superfans heard it as "She'll come around" the first time. Because she'd have to for Messiah to happen like the book. But "come to understand" might really be indicative of Chani spending most of part 3 fighting against Paul. And having some moment of closure at the end.
His delivery of that line is actually on the bitter side. He does not like what he sees. But he accepts it as the way it has to be.
Paul did have a vision of Chani stabbing him in part 1. I think we're in for some big suprises with Chani's arc. And I personally believe it's not leading towards the twins.
I think there is a decent chance Chani is actually pregnant with baby Leto. Who, because of this new arc, will survive. Which means that if Chani fights against Paul in part 3... her son will be the same age Paul's sister. If so, Paul would have seen it. But if Chani doesn't tell her son that their #1 enemy is his father... that could lead to some kind of emotional reconciliation for Paul and Chani.
And on the off chance Lady Margot's child of Feyd is a character in part 3 (like CBG19 alluded to)... we might have three kids who are the same age in this final chapter from Denis.
My theory on all this as a possibility is that Paul's fragmented prescient visions allowed him choose a different path from the books. Where he was influenced by Jamis, and his fear of Chani dying, to drink the water of life two years earlier than the path in the books.
Keep in mind the two key visions just before traveling south for the water were Chani dying by fire. And Jamis, even though his timeline has been long sealed off by his death. Which means that THIS Paul can glimpse, not only into possible futures... but also into alternate paths he can no longer live in. Very different from the books.
So Paul is more afraid to lose Chani. He touches the spice with his bare hand on top of the sand. And calls to Jamis. Directly asking him to show him the way. The Bene voice blends into a vision of Jamis teaching Paul to hunt. "He needs to see... as far as he can see. You need to see!"
Paul has other visions we do not see ourselves. He is already certain Chani will stop loving him if he takes the water now. Rather than spending two more years in the desert together. Having a baby. Allowing their love to fully form to the point that she no longer doubts him as the Prophet. Which would cost their child's life. And eventually lead to Chani dying in childbirth.
So Paul has possibly avoided the death of Chani and their first son if she is indeed pregnant. At the cost of turning her against Paul. A choice she will eventually "come to understand." Which makes lots of sense if she finds out what he did to save them both.
This theory is also based on the idea that Denis doesn't want to make Children of Dune. And will complete Paul's arc in 3 parts with a far more conclusive ending than is written in Dune Messiah.
Though I imagine he would leave some loose strands for others to work with down the line.
Great stream guys!❤
I agree, except the only thing that’s not canon from earths history is Frank Herbert writing the dune books lol.
@samd2013 we'll know in 30,000 years or so 😂
(plans within plans?) 🤔
If the change is that this is some alternative timeline to the books I will be pissed of. Like if this is the story of Paul choosing to walk the golden path himself.
@@rustknuckleirongut8107 it already is. Because Chani hates Paul now. And Paul can view parallel timelines where dead people still live. Dead people who convinced him to drink the water of life two years earlier.
The only question is, do they credit his prescience for the different choices? Or do they just say "we liked it better this way."??
Here is what everyone is tip-towing around in this all-star podcast... Adapting Messiah into a single film is impossible. Not to the standards that we would be happy with.
Also... Following up the incredible cinematic experience of Dune part 2 with the story as laid out in Messiah, as a way to close out Denis's trilogy for Paul's arc... is impossible.
Which means one thing... Part 3 will be nothing like the book. It may borrow 20% of the book, making up 2/3rds of the film at most. The other 1/3rd will be all new material at the very least. Maybe even half and half.
We should get a petition with 1 billion signatures to have Denis do a monthly series installment. Like a streaming series/theatre film hybrid. Releasing another 90 minute episode every month in theaters. Airing two weeks after on stream. 8 episodes. 12 hours. Billions as the box office by the end of the year. Most profitable series in history.
But short of that miracle... Messiah is NOT going to be what anyone thinks it is. It's probably going to be one part "near-future holy war." One part "post war Paul as emperor" (the actual book minus Chani as concubine). One part Chani plot as Fremen rebel leader, fighting Paul, attempting to keep Arrakis dry and traditional. Probably a master plan part by the BG, the guild, and other surviving enemies with Idaho 2.0... all to usurp the throne. After they fight, one part with a Paul and Chani's reconciliation plot. Possibly involving their secret son. Jessica and Alia trying to thwart the usurper's plans within plans. Irulan trying to get knocked-up and maybe finding out he already has a son. And probably trying to have him secretly assassinated. No need for contraception plot that way. And Paul probably sacrificing himself to save everyone like a true Martyr.
All while leaving some loose threads to keep the possibilities open for the studios later without Denis. Such as the golden path for Alia. Considering she didn't stab the Baron, maybe instead of being psycho, she'll go full worm goddess. But they'd make it look sexy. Maybe after Paul's dead, they end the trilogy with Alia letting a baby worm crawl around her arm. An Easter egg teaser to the future.
*Carl Jung
Quinn and Danika, you are both responsible for getting me into Dune, I read the books back in 2019 and we are so lucky to be getting this film series now!
Dune 2 reminded me how nice the theatre/cinematic experience is💜
If we all go see it again this weekend we’re definitely getting Dune Messiah 😄🔥
duckin hope not. It's diabolical already
Fair enough If you didn’t like it but diabolical? I’m not sure how you could possibly think it it was “diabolical” lol. But also, let others enjoy it? Nobody is making you watch the third movie.
Well each Dune movie can’t be 4 - 5 hours long as much as I’d love to watch a 4 hours of Dune sometimes stuff has to be left out. I like that Chani was hurt by Paul choosing to marry the Princess. I’ve seen Dune 2 three times already and the look on Chani’s face is heartbreaking. She was crushed also that he used the messiah lie to unite her people for revenge. I was ok with the Chani change.
Regarding Chani's blue scarf around her arm: I don't recall that much from the books because it's been a while since I've read them but in the movie the scarf allowed us to recognize her in the battle sequence when the Fremen were attacking the Emperor's base.
Yea I didn’t see it as scorned lover so much as him saying he would tear down the system and then embracing it. So she was let down by him being a phony
I am just happy this series I’ve always liked is now this massive event being seen by so many different people. If even 1% decide to try reading the books, it’s a huge success to me. :)
Same.
This was fantastic. Thank you all for getting together for this discussion!
After all these years, this is the first time i've seen the Gom Jabbar dudes. You 2 made me the lore nerd i've become. Thank you.
I thought Zendaya was really good as Chani. I felt all of her emotion when Paul spoke about choosing Irulan as his wife, nonchalantly. The ability to show hurt and anger without screaming or crying has to be tough.
I felt zero emotion from her😂
Chani is supposed to be a devout jihadi warrior with complete trust in Paul.
Zendaya's Chani comes off as annoying and mean, who disdains the customs and religion of her people as much as she disdains anyone else.
the only reason it's believeable that paul would want her around is because she's physically attractive.
when Paul meets irulan... Paul and Chani have already had and lost a child together. theres never any doubt that she's his consort and she pities Irulan who she knows is stuck in a loveless second place
but they have her pout off into the desert to "don't need no man" because that's what resonates with the modern woman.
@@apokatastasian2831you are missing the point of Chani's arc in the film. She's not the same character of the book, and I think that's an improvement.
@@matiasdevaglia4541 in the book she is an amazing mother, an amazing strong partner that has perfect faith in muah'dib, and a loyal member of her people and the sacredness of their beliefs...
what is improved by making her a faithless, surly, masculine killer that abandons paul when he needs her most?
@@matiasdevaglia4541 Frank herbert's dune is the greatest work of fiction ever written...it has had a lasting impact on everything that came after only rivalled by JRR tolkein. they did the same thing to his work and it was a laughing stock
imagine the staggering arrogance it takes to believe you can "improve" dune by adding a dash of woke post-modern 3rd wave cringe.
you really can't detect that people that hate you, hate religion, and hate men, and think the only good women are childless surly masculine shrews..... are ruining your culture on purpose?
This was my favorite stream about Dune 2 so far and I’ve been enjoying a lot of them out there. Great conversation and panel.
Abu (hope that, that's the correct spelling) and I are on the same page on all that was talked about. Which is why I am now subscribing to your channel!
So awesome to see all my favorite Dune people together!
This was so much fun to see all my favorite Dune Content Creators in one place, so Good.
All my favorite Dunetubers in one place!!! you guys are the sole reason for my appreciation for these books...
Started with watching this silly campy movie from the 1980's i stumbled on youtube back in 2019, then i watched all of your guy's videos to make sense of it all and that's where the rabbit hole began as i fell in-llove with Herbert's Worldbuilding. I read the books then saw Dune Part 1 and the rest is history! ;)
and yes Nerd Cookies, RELEASE THE EXTENDED CUT!!!!!!!
The Zendaya shade is unwarranted. Her character was the one that was the most changed up from the book. She did an amazing job with what she was given.
I like the changes they made to her character. Those changes were probably necessary to not only fit it in the time frame given but also to set the tone where the Dune franchise is going to take the audience.
She did a job. Thats about it.
Oooooo the Landsraad meets to discuss dune 2!
I have not heard the Gom Jabbar podcast guys before, but I really appreciated their insightful takes here. I'm going to have to hear more of them.
Omg the discussion I needed!
I'm currently reading Dune: Messiah. Let this be my motivation that as soon as I'm done with the six core book series, I will come back to this video to finish it! Love the fact Quinn, that you have the freaking Gom Jabbar podcast dudes in your discussion!
My thoughts on Dune: Part Two is that it was amazing! I do agree the empoper was propably the weakest performance.. I also liked the changes they did with Chani, she's more believable then in the book personally. I love how the film visually illustrated how the water of life is extracted, great visual storytelling! Hans Zimmer's music was much more robust and had more character then the first one. Only I Will Remain is a beautiful piece that I will come back to listen to multiple times.
Given Dune Part Two a solid 9.0/10. Loved it with some minor gripes! Good time to be a Dune fan!
I get why some of them are worried about the weirdness of Messiah but I feel they miss the mark on why Alia was changed. I just think it was too hard of a challenge to make a 2-3 year old reverend mother. We’re not talking about a 5-6 year old reverend mother but a literal baby who can fight talking like an old woman and killing the baron. If Christopher Walken took us out of the movie, imagine an accurate CGI heavy 2 year old Alia in this version of Dune. Or the other option was to make the time jump even longer than in the book and make a 6 year old Alia. Also the time jump would happen within the movie after the water of life which would have been clunky for the pacing. Personally, I understand the Alia change and we still get her strangeness, we get a talking fetus
You and Nerd Cookies are my favorite Dune lovers and nerds in general. Was so stoked to see her here along with everyone else!
Amazing takes, guys. True fans, I could listen to you all talk for another 2 hours!
The absolute dream team I could have ever hoped for to discuss an absolutely epic movie, based on my favorite book series of all time.
My prediction re: Chani in Messiah is that she will be with Paul and love him, but will be the voice for the internal doubt and conflict he feels, his conscience as it were, since Villeneuve doesn’t do the internal monologue stuff that Lynch did. She will be Paul’s “anchor” so to speak. She will not be a part of any assassination attempts.
When speculating about the things that can happen in this universe keep in mind the profound nature of Paul`s visions after drinking the water of life. He is basically omnipotent now when it comes to the future around him. Down to individual steps he sees it. From here on out, if something happens, he let it happen for some reason that might only be known to him. Everything is a step leading to place Paul needs to go.
Great panel - loved how everyone seemed to have the space to be able to make their points
The Emperor was any old man walking around in a night gown.
Time to watch it for a 3rd time 🪱🪱🪱
It seems like the guy in the top middle is the only one who understood the end of the movie…
I respect it but as was said by one of the group… too much book brain
And as I finish the video this guy continues to be the only voice of reason…
@@ianray5997agreed. His takes were the best. A lot of the others were too hung up on things not being exactly as they envisioned it
This is so rad!!! Been waiting for this meetup!
The reason why the other houses didn't summit to Paul's will is because Vladimir Harkonen said to the houses that house Corino attacked house Harkonen out of nowhere, just like the Harkonen attacked house Atraides
I love dune and I love all of you. Long live the fighters!
This may be too cheesy for some, but since Count Fenring was an older generation attempt at the Kwizatz Haderach that didn't pan out, I was secretly hoping that Count Fenring would be in this movie played by Kyle MacLachlan.
My 12 year old daughter watched Dune parts 1 & 2 with me last week (she has obviously not read the books). Coming out of part 2 she asked, "Is Paul good or bad?" I think that it was communicated well by the movie that he was not either, or she wouldn't have asked the question.
was hoping for this for while, thank you, each of you... its para-socially satisfying to see you all so happy and together
25k views in 5hours is great start
& thank you for the 1000s of hours of DUNE lore between you 🌚🐀
I think the Chani reunion is an easy fix: The audience is in God Mode (seeing everything, including how he sees more now that he's taken the Water of Life and what he said to Jessica, that he sees, "a narrow way" that's less horrific than all the other horrific possible paths...), Chani wasn't privy to that, so even tough she was in the huge southern council chamber where he told the one Naib about his long-dead relative, she still doesn't get the extent of what that means (i.e. The Golden Path.) All Denis has to do is begin Messiah with Chani arriving at her Worm-Ride destination, walk into the sietch, and Paul is already there waiting for her because his prescience told him where she'd be and he took a thropter to beat her there. He explains what's up with his new super-prescience, the audience gets much needed at that point refresher exposition of what happened to him when he took the Water of Life, how he can't do what he needs to do without her, and we finally get that wonderful speech to her how Irulan will be wife in name only, and how she'll never know his touch, or one moment of desire, etc, from the end of the Dune novel, and they're reconciled. Then we get the absolutely required time jump, because without that, we never get the Alia/Hayt plot line that is so integral to the story. And no way does Denis allow anyone but Chani to give birth to Ghanima and Leto II. (I think that would be a bridge too far for every book reader including him.) Giving the younger generation of Fremen skepticism and Chani strength and agency with her being a Fedaykin instead of a Sayyadina, instead of the mostly one-note Freemen in the book, is far more believable. And after being humiliated by a Paul, who at that moment seems like a stranger, at the end of Dune 2, it would be weird if she didn't walk out (At least that's what I'd do if I were writing it, which I clearly am not.) As for Chani's blue Nezhoni scarf, which is worn my Fremen women who have given birth to a son, is likely only a nod to the book readers, considering having actually given birth would require Alia to have also been born, which she clearly hasn't. Now, perhaps keeping Alia in the womb was a later decision in the production process for whatever reason (an AI toddler was too much like the ETrade Baby commercials (and creepy AF), it's still a nice nod and I think moving it to her arm was just securing it so it wouldn't fly off her head. Regarding Danika's question: "Is Paul bad?" No. All paths are horrific. He's forced to choose the least horrific path. Please do a show on everything GRRM lifted from Dune for ASOIAF.
So good! Love the Messiah predictions. Thank you for sharing this~
This stream was so... strangley negative? Like, we obviously all agree that it's a great movie, but it feels like yall focus on every deviation from the books, and treat deviation from the books as inherently bad.
I definitely got that vibe from two of the people, but the others seemed to appreciate that adapting the story to a new medium requires a lot of changes.
I thought Jessica and Chani were far more interesting in the film than the second half of the books. Over saturation with lore in what is already a dense film would have made it collapse under its own weight in my view. Denis has space to introduce the guild etc in the next one.
I would’ve been fine with everything but leaving out he spacing guild hit me on a personal level, so everything else feels worse
This was great. Thank you friends.
We want more full discussions with this team!!
Book ppl make me laugh so much sometimes. You guys literally want exposition dumps so bad for every adaptation.
My guy spoke to the nature of adaptation perfectly
excellently outstanding review and analysis , words cant describe the artistry of the cast, producer, writers, musical score writers and playing of music, sound, and graphic design, its like seeing STAR WARS in the 70s , just newer better equipment / tools to create such a stunning , amazing work of beauty as DUNE 1 and 2 both for the sci fi genre while adapting the novel and lore to a visual experience , Jackson achieved the same with LOTR and Hobbit for fantasy genre,,, my fav scene ? Paul asks Gurney how many nukes are in the cavern, Gurney says enough to blow up the whole damn planet, Chani spins her head to give a long dirty look at Gurney, doesnt speak, just stares, comical and humorous perhaps after Gurney notices the look/ stare and mumbles it was just a manner of speaking,, after considering the look she gives him ,her true feelings show to the audience , its her home, her people, and i think shes a perfect actress for that character , if im not mistaken she is carrying the god emperor Leto 2 at the ending, Deni will not skip anything, there will be a toddler Alia before Arya as Alia makes an appearance , might see both as flashbacks, , all sci fi movies have never had a problem designing worlds in different " sectors " of the universe where that worlds population exists, so we already seen, arrakis, geidi prime, caladan, the emperors planet, saudakar home planet, so 5 worlds when there are more to come in Messiah , hell arrakis turns into a jungle, killing the sandworms attempting to end spice production eventually by god emperor ( and thats early in the saga, maybe half way ) , how to fit millions of years of evolution into a trilogy ? cant be done,
This was wonderful! Thank you!
I would weigh in, that Film Chani is probably the Chani the Book Paul from Messiah wishes to have a partner. One who questions him as an equal and sees him not as the Prophet Emperor. While reading I often had the impression that he wished her more to question him. But I also lament that she didn't stay and it was made clear that she is his partner and that the marriage with Irulan is just political. Also, as a side note, she had to put the blue band off her head because she was wearing a helmet during the battle.
To his position as a tragic hero, I think especially in the movie he is a pawn of Jessica, who is really the driving force behind everything and plants all these little seeds, which blossom to influence Paul to do what she wants.
1:21:35
This is exactly the point I try to make to people who claim Paul is the "good guy" or the "bad guy". Both miss the point entirely. Paul is raised as a mentat, which essentially represent the superpower of the male archetype and has all the best male role models in his life who love him and guide him, he's raised in the way of Bene Gesserit by his mother, the most powerful organization in the universe and is the archetype for feminine power (both good and bad), he's born into nobility and leadership, he goes on to live among the most pragmatic and resilient people in the imperium who come to view him as their worthy leader (despite the Bene Gesserit mythology placed on the Fremen, Paul eventually earns their true allegiance), he becomes the Kwisatz Haderach - the most capable human being to ever live and is endlessly charismatic, and yet even he is unfit to wield such centralized power because no one is fit to do so.
This is a book written by a man who publicly stated that Nixon was his favorite president because Nixon taught the American people to distrust presidents.
thats pretty much the best summary on his character one could come up with. although i wouldnt call the fremen pragmatic because of how heavily they lean into superstitious believes.
@@921Ether I think a lot (not all) superstitions arrive out of pragmatism. One example is familiar to all people practicing the 4 rules of gun safety, one of which is “all guns are loaded”. This is not a literal truth, it is a metaphysical truth (or superstition). A gun is objectively loaded or unloaded. It’s scientific. However, a rigorous allegiance to this superstition massively reduces the likelihood of people being accidentally harmed when regularly dealing with firearms which then proves itself to be a superstition worthy of repetition, which is deeply pragmatic.
The Fremen religion aside, their entire ethos is framed around their hostile relationship with their planet. A man’s flesh is his own, but his water belongs to the tribe.
Great comment.
Danika = Lady Jessica, Quinn = Paul. Thanks for this, Dune crew!
Nerd cookies = Alia
That explains why I don't like Danika nor Nerd cookies but love Quinn lol
I just saw part 2 for a second time. And one thing I thought of was what if Chani is already pregnant at the end? If Denis is making this a trilogy and condensing the storyline, maybe Chani learns she’s pregnant, but at some point Irulan starts giving her the contraceptives in secret which would lead to her getting pregnant with the twins
Let's go! Monetize the f out of this YT! Great dialogue! Love all your insight. Can't wait to see it again. Y'all caught some things I missed. Btw I lolled when she said put your hand "in the box." I really missed the importance of the guild, the spice and all. But it's so bonkers, the nuclear threat to spice is like milk in the tea. It's a but easier for a lot of folks to take it. Messiah can get a chance to have more guild, since Edric helps.
The last time I was this blown away by a movie was when I was 6 years old in '77 seing Star Wars for the first time. Read the books in Jr. High in the mid 80's and loved it ever since.
Hollywood take note. Effects and explosions are cool, but intelligent scripts and great acting are what moveis are about.
This is exactly how I felt! I told my sons that I was last blown away like this when I saw Star Wars when I was 7 years old. Same sense of awe. Same level of excitement. I haven't felt that since....
Glad to see this Collab happening. Defo a big celebration for dune as a franchise and all creators like yourself who talks so much about it.
Personally thanks to you I have gotten into Dune, I hope your audience grows and more people will want to get into the series too!
It’s funny seeing how you guys really enjoy certain changes & aspects from the book but also how changes other potential scenes that you really missed or wished would happen. For example how y’all enjoyed the fetus Alia, but how also she wasn’t able to kill the Baron and its effects her eventual evil set up. We can only wait and see How Dennis plans to wrap this trilogy up and finish all of these arcs in his adaptation.
Hahahaha the ‘it’s just woman 2 at that point’ line was missed and had me laughing out loud - don’t worry fella I heard it
31:23 I thought it was strange they keep talking about honor when he is fighting drugged up starved prisoners with a shield on for most of that first fight.
Paul Atreides is Erin Yeagar
Yes
I was so waiting for this but so much of the discussion was about a movie that don't exist (yet) and not the movie we all saw
Great listen anyway
From the land of the dessert it self chile!
wonderful discussion, this should play in cinemas right after the credits end :)
*I don't understand the problem that Danika has with movie Chani.* She's seeing (and conveying to the audience) that her people are being manipulated, by religion, by the Bene Gesserit, and yes by Paul as well.But she doesn't hate him, she loves him. She's just conflicted.
Is it that unfathomable that human beings can be illogical and complex like that? I think Denis made her character a lot better, honestly. "Ride or die" Chani is cool, but it's even cooler that in the movie she sees through the all the manipulation and the bullshit and says it like it is. AND PAUL AGREES! He hates the bullshit as well and that's why he's a tragic character, because he's got no choice.
Agreed, Danika eqs over the top to the point that I could not finish the video and want to makes sure that I'm not subscribed to her channel.
@@keturahspencer Because she doesn’t like the change in Chani ?
Just disagree on this one point lol
@@thecarter8700 it's not merely having an opinion on movie Chani that I disagree with, it's how she expressed her opinion. And arguably Chani is the only person in the movie supporting Paul not wanting to give into the prophecy. That's still supportive.
@@keturahspencer Well she’s a great Dune resource … Would hate to see any Dune fan not get to enjoy those lore videos
@@thecarter8700 after this introduction to her she's not a resource I'll use.
@47:00 there are a couple things to consider. 1. I think crying being the thing that we recognize most as grief is greatly sidelined here for all of the Fremen, 2. Maybe she would rather see Paul dead than leading a holy war against the galaxy. She is crying when Jessica forces her to comply with the prophecy. She has a lot of feelings about it. I don't think she doesn't love Paul enough in this scene, but she also loves her people and knows that Jessica is manipulating all of the southern Fremen into following Paul. And she absolutely does NOT want any part in this manipulation. It's an emotionally complicated situation.
Awesome collaboration!
Removing the two year time skip has set a huge wrinkle into some important characters and left things in a different spot than the book left them. On the topic of nuking the spice fields, all that would do is make everyone need radiation suits to go harvest it, and spice would still be produceable.
The spice must flow.
3 nit picks that would have made the movie perfect for me:
Alia should have murdered the Baron with the Gom Jabbar through Jessica
Jessica should have said: "we will be remebered as wives" to Chani, before Chani left to the desert
Someone at some point should have said: The spice must flow
I actually didn’t mind the way the movie handled Alia, and I thought Paul just killing the Baron in cold blood like that was pretty scary, and un-Paul-like, so it worked for me.
and Emperor Walken definitely should’ve been the one to say “the SPAIce… must, FLow.”
Although "The spice must flow" isn't even from the books, it's from the 1984 movie.
First one is clownin, but the other two are reasonable
@@Sam_T2000 It makes a lot more sense AND is more satisfying for it to be Paul than deranged baby Alia.
guy in the top middle is like the only one who understood what the movie was trying to say with chani's character I'm crying. like good lord the amount of just pure misunderstanding and downright vitriol of what they've watched (outside of top middle guy) is insane to witness. and it's simply because from how they talk about dune, most of them don't actually vibe with what frank was trying to say. one thing about the man, he hated being seen as a "guru" and yet this is exactly what a lot of dune fans take him as when it comes to his books lol (especially person on the bottom right)
Fun fact. Léa Seydoux was born a mere 6 months after Dune 1984 came out.
i better hear some criticism of this movie......where did the guild go in part 2??
When you say that, are you asking where were they when Paul tried to become emperor ?
I’m trying to remember, outside of that .. what part they played in book 1… I’ve honestly forgotten
I don't see the jealousy in Chani, personally. She's hurt by the loss of HER Paul. Who, in essence, is gone.
I don't know how you take that as jealouay.
Im just so happy Nerd Cookies is a real person and not an AI voice. I honestly wasn't sure lol
Thanks for the podcast