1887 Winchester - The Rube Goldberg Device of Shotguns
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- čas přidán 14. 05. 2024
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John Browning wanted to make a pump action shotgun but Winchester insisted on a lever action because it was "their brand". This..thing...is the result.
It works.
Kinda.
People love it because..movies. Video games.
Why do you want this, again?
Terminator 2. Thats Why.
I now know why you cry
100%
Thats IT.
@@pripjatyfighter3786 You’ve gotta admit, though, in Terminator 2 it is easily the sexiest gun ever committed to film.
the motorcycle is just a modern day horse
Don't forget the Australian market.
back when the jailers banned semi-autos and pump-action shotguns, they completely forgot that lever action shotguns existed.
Lever action shotguns were added to the restriction list a few years ago. however, the law states they must have a magazine holding over 5 rounds, which makes me wonder if the extra 2 you can cram into an 1887 winchester technically still makes it banned.
@@Marc83AusThe wording, in Qld anyway, is "5+1" so maybe technically? But I doubt the fuzz would bother doing anything even if they found out because it's just some old cowboy gun. They only started caring about the Adler when people started strapping tacticool stuff to them. As a side note, I am the proud owner of possibly the world's only trench Adler 😂 Managed to luck my way into a repro handguard/bayonet lug and bolted them to my A110.
@@matthewn4896 I'm shocked that we havent yet banned any rifle that has any possibility of a bayonet being attached to it.
@@Marc83Aus The amount of SMLEs in circulation would make that almost impossible I think 🤣
@@Marc83Aus I have one and no laws changed there was talk of it being a cat c but never happened in qld
You forgot the biggest reason that gun is highly desirable - "lever gun fun" and "big lever gun more funner"
This is my biggest reason for wanting one
Exactlt not every gun in a collection nust be for pure tactical purpose
Sometimes a range toy is a range toy
Granted it is still a shotgun and can find uses
The biggest reason is T2.
They trying to claim lever actions are assault weapons un believable
I had a 1st year production that I bought around 2005 for $700 at a gun auction. It was my main pheasant/quail gun for six years. Smooth....reliable... and great fun to shoot. It always got a lot of attention because most had never seen one.
in the words of marge simpson "I just think they're neat"
Me with my love of garbage early self loading pistols
1887 fans and BAR fans bonding over Browning's jankiest children that were still moderately successful
"I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle". I have to agree. Pop culture made that shotgun popular lol.
You didn’t say “please”…
Your discipline at not saying the "Goddamn it" out loud during the malfunctions is impressive.
Thanks!
im surprised thats what people say, the few times ive had that with my gun ive audibly said "what the f**k?"
It might be strange and have some odd quirks, but that is why the 1887 and the LeMat revolver personally appeal to me
I have to agree with you about the Lematt revolver but the 1887 lever action is a bit too quirky for me. I've been wanting an 1897 12 gauge for the entirety of my adult life. Whenever I find one they are either too beat up or too expensive or both.
Me Too!!!! Looks like a nice hefty gun
Thats my hunt showdown class right there.
Clearly, any functionality problems are user error. One has to have the proper Clothes, Boots and Motorcycle.....
Just as John Browning intended.
Also the correct technique for working the lever.
The story of the 1887 never fails to bring a chuckle. JMB must have thought, even if he never said "I told you so".
Do you need one? No. Are they practical? No. Are there better shotguns? Yes. Is it just freaking cool and thats why you should get one? Hell yes.
Hey hey, @InrangeTV I'm a gunsmith from Hungary (But nowadays anybody can claim that) and when we got double barrel shotguns in school for fixing and cleaning and whatnot, most of the people (With external Hammer Designs) complained about the hammer screws coming loose all the time.
What we usually did was that we drilled out the screwholes, and put a negative thread in it (Negative compared to theoriginal threading) so when the hammer strike, it actually tightens the screws instead of loosening them.
Maybe it would work on a Winchester 1887 as well, who knows?
Pop culture has not lied to me, I don't care what issues they have, it's the Terminator 2 shotgun and a browning design, it's a certified classic in my book
The 2 3/4" shotgun shell wasn't standard before 1925(ish). Prior to that the standard was 2.5" and that produces some of the issues with antique repeaters, especially upon ejection. When that 2 3/4" inch hull opens the front actually brushes the front of the action as you eject which is why you need that "forceful" ejection. The gun was designed for 2.5" shells and you're shooting 2 3/4" shells. With some calipers you can measure the length of various brands of shells and you'll find they differ slightly from company to company. You'll want to measure fired hulls because most of that length difference is because of how they are crimped. Choose the company with the shortest hulls and you'll have fewer issues.
Thank you for the info. And thanks Karl for the video
Winchester AA seem to have the shortest shells that I have found.
Will it shoot and cycle Aguila mini shells?
@@clone4211I have tried them in a 1887 Cimarron and it will not run them.
You could also reload hulls and trim off the factory crimp. Load it up with an overshot card and roll crimp it down.
As I recall, John Browning told Winchester that he'd rather just finish his pump design, but they said "we sell lever actions."
He knew this was not a great design, but Winchester's money spends as good as anyone else's. The 1893/97 is the Browning design that's fully baked.
the 1893 would shoot flaming powder into its users eyes though.
@@ytho8217 Don't be obtuse. I literally said 1893/97.
I have been using an 1887 replica for my cowboy matches for several years. The Chiappa is a very nice reproduction of the Winchester 1887 shotgun however my ching-chou Chinese replica works great and cost one-third of the Chiappa. The secret of using the 1887 is using 2 1/2" shotgun shells. The original 1887 receiver was designed for 2 1/2 inch brass shotshells. The modern 2 3/4" shotgun shells sometimes catch on the chamber edge during ejection which results in a bad ejection. RTS shotshells sells 2 1/2" target loads that work outstanding in the 1887. My theory is the repros are chambered for 2 3/4 inch shotshells however the receiver dimensions are the same as the original designed for 2 1/2 inch shotshells. At least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
I guess this design didn't evolve so that the solution to the carrier screws getting loose would be locking screws like the Auto-5s did eventually.
I keep getting amazed by how huge it actually is. In the hands of a T-800 it almost looks like a Mare's Leg.
I believe the movie version had a cut off stock and a short barrel
@@christophernemeth421 Yes, I know that. Everybody knows that.
But look at that _massive_ receiver in relation to a normal guy, then watch the scenes when Arnold carries it.
Yeah, Arnold makes it look like a toy when it's a big lump in reality! Though apparently he did almost break his hand doing the twirly reload thing, so they made him a lighter prop.
@@alun7006
Close. Apparently they made him the lighter version for the spinning reload, and he practiced with it extensively. Then he was being interviewed and wanted to show off, grabbed the wrong one, and that's when he wrenched his hand and wrist.
@@eldorados_lost_searcher
Almost. To my knowledge, they had a total of three real guns (I'll need to double check if they were original black powder guns or later reproductions) to be used for filming.
The one that was specifically meant for spinning had an enlarged loop to make room for the user's hand/fingers. Arnold grabbed one of the other guns which had the standard size lever and thus twisted his fingers really badly when he tried to do the spin.
I love my 1887. Though technically it’s a 1901 replica because of the two piece lever. I came home from a scout fair on my 13th birthday and there is see on the dining room table a box that had a picture of the 1887 on it. My dad said he got it for me because I expressed interest in it though it was because I saw it in The Mummy 2, not T2. When he went to Collectors Firearms in Houston, they said they had 3 of them on hand, 3 original production guns. He got me a much cheaper Chinese replica instead.
My gun has been fairly reliable for me. I haven’t had any issues with the hammer being too soft or weirdness with ammo, though I’ve only ever shot birdshot out of it since I used it shooting trap, but I have shot it a lot without issue. I dunno if it’s just my gun or maybe my gun being an updated 1901 model, I don’t need to pull the trigger to drop a shell onto the carrier. As soon as I close the action, it drops a shell. I do have to tighten the screws on it every once in a while and the front bead fell off forever ago.
It is a weird and quirky design that has to be run just right to run at all, but I kinda love it for that. Thanks for covering this weird and awesome gun!
I'm not the only one that wants one because of the mummy 2 instead of T2. Don't get me wrong terminator is great but it's the mares leg version. Ok I want both
Thanks Karl, I appreciate your honesty on that 1887. I love old western guns and have thought a lot of getting one. I believe I'll think about it a little longer. Thank you for all your hard work and time Sir.
They key question to ask when anyone asks "Is XYZ reliable" is "How many other companies copied the design and put out their own version?" If the answer is "Oh, everybody did, companies came up producing nothing but ripoffs of it" that's a key that the design is solid and it's pretty reliable. If the answer is "Uh, well, that company didn't even stay with the design for that long" there's probably an obvious reason for that, and it's likely flaws in the design. As such, that's probably why the '87 Winchie, while revolutionary in its day, didn't really stick too long before other better ideas surpassed it. If anything, it should be credited with opening designers eyes to repeating shotgun possibilities, like pumpguns.
A Chiappa with soft metal parts, why I absolutely never would have guessed!
Seriously though, had a M4-22 upper and it cured me of the want to buy anything Chiappa again.
It is a absolutely uncanny. For the last 3 weeks I have been really considering getting an 1887. I researched its quirks and had basically found all the issues with the gun from other people and still wanted it. I hadn't even seen your competition video. Now seeing this and your own issues you'e had...I still want it. Just have to save up and bide my time to get it.
Is it the most effective tool? No.
Would I be remiss in buying a pump alternative? No.
Is it better than no tool? Yes.
Will I feel like a cowboy? Yes.
So its worth it.
When I was a kid, I hunted with an original 1887 12 gauge. It had a 30" Full choke, and whether hunting deer or ducks, it did the job. Heavy as all get out, though.
The rundown I've been waiting for on my favourite gun!
Why do I want it... I took a chance on a Chinese repro for cheap and it became my favourite gun of all time. I always walk away from shooting it with a big smile on my face, the feeling of levering in 12 gauge shells is such a unique and fun feeling. It being John Browning's red headed step child is also a cool historical anecdote on it, and a credit to his ability to just make what he was asked.
It has its annoyances and quirks, but it fits me like a glove. Cheap to shoot, and it's been fully adequate for my introduction to grouse hunting. Love the 1887, every quirk and problem and perk.
Problems and quirks suck at competitions and in "real life". Glad you enjoy yours, of course.
It was never designed to be a speed cycled firearm, not in the 1880s and not now. It was designed as a hunting firearm not a "gunfighter" gun. My grandpa had an original, longer barrel, functioned flawlessly.
Bought 1 when i turned 18, never regretted it a day in my life
I have ran a few versions of this shotgun. I can confirm the clunckyness is a product of the design itself and not one particular manufacturer. Still fun though. In fact, I would say the clunky nature of the gun makes it more fun to run.
I want one specifically because it is a finicky unreliable problem child
I love my junk project guns
they make me feel like a real gunsmith when I fix stuff and it works right for a while
Love fixing junk! I have a Merwin Hulbert that was rusted deep on one side and believe it or not the barrel was slightly bent in two places, broken springs and worse. After heating the barrel red hot and straightening on a lathe turned mandrel, springs from scratch, rust blued then worn down. Dad was even dubious that it could fire safely but hand loaded with light black powder loads, it lives again.
Fun fact: they only used this shotgun in Terminator 2 because James Cameron really liked how John Wayne flip-cocked his mare’s leg in True Grit
Thanks for another great video, Karl!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Love the video and love the scarf Karl ! Keep it up !
That's a khamas scarf bud
Reproduction 1887s became popular here in Australia after pump action and semi auto shotguns became heavily restricted in 1996. They have been largely replaced by modern Turkish lever action shotguns and straight pull bolt action shotguns.
There’s a purple loctite that is weaker than the blue. You can also use pipe thread tape
Cheap clear fingernail polish has become my go-to, especially on sensitive/fine-thread screws.
6:52 I had this exact same issue with a charter arms revolver's transfer bar. Transfer bar was soft and starting to mushroom out, getting light primer strikes and actually started getting caught/stuck/dragging on the firing pin as well making the trigger pull abyssal.
Enjoyed this video. TY.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Why want one? My Dad used a 12 and a 10 gauge in the late 1930's. Times were tough. He said he made sinkers out of his slugs and slugs from sinkers depending on food availability.
My Chinese 1897 was rough. Sold it and regret it. I had an 1887 and 1901 originals in 10 gauge. Sold them and didn't regret it.
Very interesting Karl as always! Keep them coming! Always solid info from In Range!!!
Have an original and a repro AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT! I love the scene in Mummy Returns when Rick is trying to reload his "87 on the run, and just gives up!
1) Coolness
2) it's different
3) gun control (In Australia lever shotguns are very very popular due to pumps being illegal
4) Terminator
Very interesting. Well done showing your process. Thanks.
I couldn't tell ya. I LOVE lever actions, and shotguns have always been cool so having one weapon that is both just tickles that 'joy' part of my brain. same reason I love revolvers, shame a lever-action revolving shotgun doesn't exist. then i'd be in heaven.
Nice presentation, well timed, edited, and spoken. Thanks Karl. Gus
The nice reproductions are really desireable. Dad had originals he didnt shoot much, if at all. When the reproductions quality level increased he bought a few for shooting. He did not like the new look and was masterful at giving them a well used, maintained look. We both knowingly bought originals and repros to repair. All too often the repro parts needed massive amounts of fitting to make them work.
Another great video Karl . I really like your recent content 👍🏼
My favorite shotgun is the _other_ one with an iconic scene in a James Cameron movie-the Ithaca Model 37.
"I like to keep this handy..." _CHA-CHAK_ "...for close encounters."
(Also, I'm a lefty and the Ithaca ejects out the bottom)
If you want a more time proper loctite solution you could use a pine pitch or even just the sap. It'll harden like loctite but you can remove it with heat. My great grandad used to do that with his guns
Thank you for this, Karl, i knew about some of the issues, now i know more, still, won't stop me from getting one 😁
It's nice when suppliers are on the ball and get the orders processed then sent in a timely fashion. Those guns are really neat with the 70,140 conversion.
T2 made the 1887 the pop culture icon it is today. Since then it has been in countless films and games, often in same sawn off style from Terminator. Hot Fuzz, MW2, The Mummy series, Supernatural Etc.
Speaking of pop culture, my introduction to the 1887 Winchester was in the Alan Moore run of Swamp Thing, of all places. It even mentions how it wasn't even the best gun at the time, it's got issues, but there's still a few reproductions a year for people who are into that.
Thank you
Beautiful gun!
The carrier screws would seem to be a good application for Vibra-Tite's VC-3 threadlocker. Rather than the typical anaerobic threadlocker that's assembled wet, dries between the threads and retains until being disassembled (once); VC-3 is painted on the screw threads and allowed to dry. The dried VC-3 remains soft, so when assembled it serves the same thread retaining function as the nylon insert in a Nyloc nut. The fastener can be adjusted removed and reused without requiring another application to still work. It doesn't last forever under repeated disassembly, but when it wears out the dried compound can be cleaned off and reapplied. I would recommend not putting any on the first couple threads of a fine thread screw, as it can be easier to get the screw started in the threads correctly without the VC-3 being there, especially the first assembly after application.
For me the 1887 shotguns fall in the interesting, but not something I want to own category. I am fascinated by the progression of firearms design over the years, and always wonder how does the industry decide that a basic design is good enough, lets just run with it. In this case of repeating shotguns, start with an intentional handicap by a marketing decision, move on to a different mechanism entirely like pumps, and start tweaking those designs until they run well and are cheap to make while concurrently exploring semi-auto designs and going through the same design processes.
Great video!
All of the issues you listed is why the 1887 is at the bottom of my buy list...but its still on the list
Absolutely flawed!! absolutely beautiful!! It marks a time in history that was revolutionary in design!! Flawed as it may be.
Still want one. I really appreciate the brief run down of it’s quirks.
Try all of that with black powder shells!
thank you for the video
I have the Chinese version from back when they were about $300, if I recall. Haven't shot it enough to run into problems but you have to run the action with vigour. Very cool looking gun.
Nothing will tell you how disappointed i was to drop almost 2k on my case hardened chiappa mares leg, only to find it VERY quickly that its a POS. And its not even chiappas fault.
Lithgow Small Arms in Australia tried to make 1887 shotguns for the Cowboy crowd over here decades ago. But they could never get the leaf springs to work satisfactorily (too soft or they broke IIRC) - all the 'old timers' who made leaf springs for the SMLE had long retired and the new crew only understood coil springs.
Beyond nostalgia, this sounds like a pain. I get the cowboy action part though.
Sounds similar to running spencer. Thanks for the info carl.
There is a great video put out by the gunsmith that worked closely with the Chinese company on behalf of century arms, and he helped the Chinese maker produce a very good copy in the century arms replica, the PW87A. That is what I have. It works flawlessly, with roll crimped 2 1/2 to max 2 3/4” shells. In the video I referenced, he goes over the minutia of what he had to go through with the Chinese maker to get a superior product. You video is great as well BTW! Thanks for your awesome content!
I have the recent Cimarron Chinese reproduction, I bought it as a range toy and that was my level of expectations and I've been happy with it.
I'd compare ownership to that of a classic car. There's nostalgia, there's the iconography, and when you do have everything working right, its fun. But its never going to be your reliable daily driver. It will require more work to keep running, but there's also a pride that comes from that as well.
Thanks for the honest review, but I still want one!
Another cool benefit is the action is very compact. I have one of the new imported Cimarron and yours looks way prettier than the matte black finish on mine.
Best video I’ve seen on the 1887
Thank you.
I have an original, it uses 12 gauge low base shells. It was cheap, about $150 in the 90's.
Have an original, fell in love with them from rhe western movie Desperado (1987). Mine has been very reliable. Thinking of getting a Cimarron to convert to 70-110. If you think an 1887 is quirky you should shoot a Spencer Pump Shotgun! Have 2 of them. The Spencer predates the Winchester 1893/1897. They started in 1882.
So I have owned one of these for about 6 months now. Not a Chiappa, I got the new in production Cimmaron because I was going to review it for my first Fallout themed Gun review. I managed to pump out about 100 rounds of high brass 00 Buckshot in an afternoon between my friends and I and an additional 100 rounds of field and target bulk birdshot. When I brought it home after the second trip to the range, my stock was rattling. It turned out that my receiver threading to hold the stock screw in place had stripped out under firing. It is currently at the Cimmaron gun smith being inspected
I have one of the china ones. Screws extremely soft so they sent me replacement screws but like 1 at a time with the last one coming 4yrs after the first. Mine is mostly reliable except the last round almost always sticks to the bolt on extraction no matter how aggressive you run it. Polishing chamber helped with reliability alot.
I have a Chinese copy from Centruy International and it seems to work pretty well. It DOES need to be handled with authority to function correctly. One thing different on mine is that the next round enters the lifter once the action is closed. No trigger pull needed.
Italian steel is not properly hardened. It’s made for the 21/2” shell easy to load. The Cimarron arms import works with the cool 20” barrel
Thanks fascinating
Try pink lock tight for small soft screws we use it on brass screws on the restraints of roller coasters
Do you know which number it is? 222 is low strength but purple?
They make many different types.
Thanks
I have a Cimmarron repro, and the quirk it has is that the magazine spring is too strong to +2 it. It needs to compress a bit more to get that shell on the lifter, about the length of the brass on lowbrass target shotshells.
I have one of the Chinese replicas and this sums up a lot of the issues I've had with it over the years. Really starting to debate trading it in for something
'In-flight missile repair' is gonna stick with me for a while, I think
Are you telling me that ghost loading has been around since the inception of repeating shotguns? Heck yeah.
BTW I agree with everything you discussed on your excellent video.
Excellent in all ways. Thank you. Me being a still somewhat functional OF- Old "fellow" -read flatulence, of 80, who recently felt a desire to own a lever shotgun replacing my grandfather's shotgun, I will forgo that. Thanks! However, I add something useful perhaps: having read more than several evaluations about Chiappa guns it seems they have a basic problem with quality. New guns breaking, soft parts, etc, etc, I believe I will avoid the brand entirely. Further, I will add that 1897's bolts can have very sharp edges giving a nasty cut to the thumb web-something that is probably well known. Wishing all good shooting and happy trails.
It's funny because growing up I always thought that since John Browning hated it, that everybody else did too. Then whenever I kept seeing other people wanting one, I wondered if maybe I was the one told misinformation.
ive had one for years, had an action job done by cowboy action shooter place, id have to bust it out to see, and man it is fun thats for sure.
Lever actions are cool.
Small rubber O rings might keep those screws from backing out without using loctite.
I grew up with a 1887, goose barrel. 10 gauge.
I'm looking forward to your videos on old west guns.
I see this as the same boat as a 1930 T bucket. No matter how poorly it performs, it still has a great look to it.
Other than the 1887 and the S&W Model 29 of Dirty Harry-fame, it's hard for me to think of other guns whose rise in popularity can be traced back to one single film (or film-character in the case of the S&W). Yes: The Desert Eagle was all over action-flicks from the mid 80s onward, but I don't think that one could argue that it was "Year of the Dragon" (its first ever appearance IIRC) or "Commando" (first time Arnold used one) that made it a household name/design. What's kinda weird in this particular case is that it was a more or less ancient and terribly outdated design and that its inclusion in a sci-fi action movie dealing with high-tech concepts like cyborgs and using brand new, state-of-the-art CG was what brought it to the public's attention. More than 100 years after it had been designed.
I have a Cimarron Model 1887 20” and I have about 100 shells through it so far and it runs great. I just might get it cerakoted to be more weather resistant because I am not too fond of Chinese steel coatings from factory but running bird, buck, and slugs, it runs great and I can keep my cheek on the gun when cycling and shot a 24/25 at my local skeet range
10:00 The "old" way of ensuring screws didn't back out was to use cornstarch on the threads like dry loctite. That's the method I know, not sure if a water or even oil paste would work if it needed to be easier, but dry cornstarch may be enough to stop those backing out.
As far as the lock tite, i find the low strength version for set screws is the best for firearms. will still come apart when you need it
Carl
Thank you very much for being so honest.
I bought a Chinese made copy of one of these 1887’s in like 2015 and no one had these at the time and a girl named Shella who was from Australia had a gun shop in Barstow, California managed to get two of them in through a distributor in Australia where lever action shotguns are the only type of legal repenting shotguns available to anyone, and at that time Gavin Newsome was trying to make California gun laws just like Australian gun laws. So living there all of my life and wanting to still be legal to be able to protect myself, family and friends I started collecting Australian legal guns like the 1887, four Beretta Uberti made Laramie single action top break pistols like S&W Scholfields, and a Beretta / Uberti made 1875 Colt Lightning pump action 45 LC that is the fanciest gun that I have ever bought.
I moved to AZ a couple of years ago so I’ve heard that you might be bringing Dead Eye to the shooting range in China Valley and if so I will definitely try to shoot them there with you.
I’ve shot my 1887 some, maybe 300 rounds and I’ve never had any actual problems with it other than ejection.
Thanks again and have a good one.
I've got a cimarron one, and it's fun
When the shells were made back in time, they were 2 and a half inch long. Now shells are 2 2/3 inches. From I was told.
Spencer pump was in commercial production earlier than Win 93, but maybe not commercially "successful".
Of course my interest in it came from T2. But even after having shot them and knowing they're far from perfect. They're still super cool and I want one. I can deal with its quirks to have the cool factor and style points that also come with it.