Machining a New Bronze Cross Feed Nut for a 1909 F. E. Reed Lathe
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- čas přidán 13. 04. 2017
- A project I am doing for a viewer in Texas who has asked me to help make a new nut and cross feed screw for an antique F. E. Reed metal lathe. The new part was machines on the mill and lathe from a piece of bronze stock.
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I have an old vice that was missing the half nut which was an obsolete part and impossible to find. I don't have a lathe so I just melted some brass and poured it on the lead screw which was set in a mould. long story short...worked like new. very very easy to do.
Here is a little tip. When you true up something like the nut using a centre(great technique) set your dial gauge a zero where you want to finish, ie if its at 90 and 5 then set the clock at 47.5 when it reads 90. That way you just keep aiming for zero, both axis is the same since you are clocking off a ground round centre.
We did that for our old lathe. Based on my research our lathe is from 1913-1918. We actually made ours on the lathe that needed it. more than 15 years ago. Our but was worn out just like that.
Quite a project You are helping that lathe owner solve a nasty problem
Wow Keith! when you're recovering You Tube has your back. I had never seen this wonderful video that you produced about 5 or 6 years ago, and helped out a fellow that needed an impossible part. Good Job! Get well If you see this comment!
Your are the only one that post a 40:00 min video and I make it through the whole thing I really enjoy watching and learning from you. Thank you Keith
P 80
Just a note to all, many of the lathes and other machined tools were provided to companies to build war materiel. The government gave them to the using companies sometime in the 1960s.
I am not saying this one is, but many featured in the machining videos are.
Also, I love the armchair machinists telling him how to do stuff.
Armchair machinist hey???....some of us have over 60 years hacking metal for a living.
I had to cut an acme thread with a tap to make new half nuts for a lathe. The leadscrew was 3/4" dia. In order to make the forces on the tap more manageable I ran a standard 60 deg NC thread tap of the same pitch through first to remove a bunch of material. The acme tap went through quite easily after that. Not always easy to find the right tap. A youtube star like yourself can probably appeal to your audience for a loaner. Cool project and generous of you to help a brother out.
Hi Keith, When I worked at ITT Blackburn we made our own silicone bronze for hardware and connectors. Those marks are from the pull and draw of the material flowing thru the draw dies. There is a set of traveling pullers that drags the hardened material thru a die that has cooling water passing thru it. When the material had hardened it pulls forward a bit and the cycle starts again, hence the drag marks.
When I worked for B & W nuclear in Barberton, Ohio, we cut a lot of non-standard threads. Mainly buttress threads with altered inside and outside radii for strength. Also double and quad lead threads. Fun stuff. Our cutter grind department could make almost any cutting tool you needed. Most of our products had very high nickel content, therefore the chips were stringy and you had to use a very low surface cutting speed.
Loved the level of instruction, the detail and the focus. Craftsmanship is king!
Very cool how you indicated in that square piece. As someone who is getting ready to buy my first mill and lathe, you and Adam Booth (Abomb) have really helped me get the idea of what this new adventure entails and in all honesty, inspired me to actually move forward with it. As an engine builder and motorsports enthusiast I’ve always wanted to, but have really never taken the jump to invest into it until I started watching yours and Adams videos (amongst others). I have a serious perfection and attention to detail ocd issue, so something like this is right up my alley. Thank you.
Keith, using that center to indicate the piece was brilliant. Another great tip from the master .
I am happy to see other guys are as slow at centering a piece in a four jaw as I am. We can't all be up to the Abom or Fenner speed level.
I am sure it is very satisfying to be using the lathe you restored.
@ 10:20 Typical wide growth rings of Southern Yellow Bronze. If you use a piece from old growth Sitka Bronze, the rings are much tighter.
LMAO
OK, THAT is GOOD!
Alaskan Sitka bronze IS the best!
(I should know, used to build airplanes.) :D
steve
That was exactly what I thought too...not about the variety of tree, but that the continuous cast looked like "wood grain" on the sides. It would(not a pun) be interesting to see the internal grain structure of the Bronze to see if it follows those exterior patterns with the stress and strain of being forced through the dies.
At first I thought he was trying to pass off a painted 2x4 as bronze.
halnywiatr A
Yet another really interesting project, well thought-out and explained. Thank you!
Love that indicating method between centers! This might be an old trick but I've never seen it before!
Felix Dietz look up wiggle stick or wobble indicator, something like that
I've seen it on Doubleboost, and I think Adam's done it as well...but I know John @ Doubleboost uses it fairly often, you should check him out, he is hilarious!
Brought back memories of me, as a young teen replacing the spokes on my bicycle with chromed spokes (just to "look cool."....never realizing it was the spokes that kept the rim, and tire, straight!! Took many hours of loosen this side-tighten that side to get it straight enough to ride and not be laughed at..............smh
Called a Wobble Bar. I made my own as an apprentice some 45 years ago and still in use today. Better if the center is spring loaded.
Hi Keith! I is so good to see your refurbished lathe and four-jaw chuck in use :-)
Man I was on the edge of my seat watching that tapping. Great video!
Keith you're such a wonderful guy ! Thank you so much as possible for taking the time and effort and not to mention financial efforts towards the general publics education and well being. What an honor to learn from you. I hope you find how great of a guy you are 😊😁
Haha! Uses a caliper to scribe, center punches the center by hand, mounts in four jaw on extruded surface, and indicates to .0005 of "center". "Should be close enough." Haha! Keep it up Keith. Always enjoy your videos.
I got that, too. He is a master of understatement. He's the best.
Using the dead center is one of the most clever things I've seen.
Beautiful video, Keith.
You explained it very well.
Very interesting I found the aligning of the bronze blank, in the 4 baking chuck.
Great video , I like your style, to me it's something about these vintage machinery , the craftsmanship and quality of materials and pride that went into each machine is second to none, that's why I have and use vintage machinery, take care 😁
My 1930 south bend needs one of these. I will keep this video for a rainy day.
Thanks a bunch for making this video!
Had to make exactly that part for my 1950's English Smart and Brown SABEL 9" Lathe. 1/2" cross slide lead screw with LH square thread as well. 10 TPI. First I ground up a tool and screw cut a short piece of lead screw in 1214 to use as a plug gauge. Then ground up an internal threading tool and cut a practice piece in aluminium to prove out the internal thread cutting tool. Then milled up a block of phosphor bronze. To centre it in the four jaw chuck rather than clock it I used the cutting tool itself lightly touching against the part's flats and read the numbers off the cross slide dial. Managed to get it centred within 0.001" then machined the boss and tapped it for the clamp grub screw. Turned part 90 degrees and again centred the part using the tool itself lightly against the flats. Centre drilled, drilled, bored and finally cut the thread to fit the short plug gauge I made. Only problem was when fitting the nut to the cross slide screw it went tight in the middle. Checking found that the cross slide screw was 0.002" oversize there. So had to rechuck the part and pick up the thread then skim out a 0.001" cut. As i have only the one Lathe that meant dismantling the Lathe to measure the part and then reassembling it to machine the new nut. Same cycle for the skim cut. That was some five years back and cross slide screw & nut has worn very little since. Lathe gets used most days.
Love to see and hear you work. Thanks
this is KEN GEORGE, not LESLEY, but it is her computer, i have not done any lathe work for about 60 years when i was at a U.K. technical school, I loved machine shop, forgework, and tin smithing, I also worked in my Granpappy's forge as a striker, helped with the horses could make a shoe but never hot fitted one, i never cut a gear - but have cut plenty of threads - usually into car or outboard motor blocks. i worked mostly as a process plant designer / detailer for onsite construction crews, and project management. I have enjoyed watching your videos, and explanations , also your near enough approach - like to within half a thou :) i will be back to watch more THANKS
As always, excellent video. Glad to see that new live center found a home on your Le Blond lathe
I was feeling your concern, Keith, on the second tapping. I've broken a few taps and that can be nerve racking,when you feel it getting tight! Nice work! Keep 'em coming!!
Watching you needing a special tap, I was reminded of something in my apprenticeship days. One of the other apprentices was restoring an old car at home and needed a really strange tap size. He bought a casting into work and one of the tool makers measured the thread ,figured out what it was and showed him how to make a tap out of tool steel . Not so hard from what i remember and the rest of us learned a lot in a couple of hours,including a bit of heat treating. ...Just a thought. Cheers!
My older machining books make it sound like no big deal whipping up a tap or special drill bit, reamer etc. Mebbe I will try one day.
If you look at a normal Vee form tap the middle or second tap, as opposed to a no. 1 tap or no. 3 plug tap, you will see that the tap is practically parallel for 5/8ths of it's length and the only cutting bit is the tapered end piece. Making a tap with a long tapered section only creates a long friction gripping surface. Gun nosed taps or spiral point taps have a slanting cut at the end of the tap for approx. 3 threads and that is what does the cutting …..the rest of the tap is just to guide it straight in the hole once it's in the hole and starts cutting. You also get spiral taps and they also only cut on the very end 3 threads. Taps NEVER cut along their flutes and are resharpened if they get a chip by grinding those end threads only.
I was always taught that when hand tapping you did one full turn forward then a 1/2 back to help clear the swarf. Every 4 forward do a turn or two back and then back to 1 and the 1/2. This particularly for deeper threads to keep the tap and hole clear of swarf that might get caught and jam the tap. I was taught this in metalwork class at secondary school when I was 12 and have always used it. It takes a little longer to tap a hole but they always come out clean and well formed and in the intermeaning 54 years I have never broken a tap.
P.s. I learned something with the centering set up with the morse taper sleeve and dead centre, I think to myself ,"why did that never occur to me" just shows we never know it all eh, thanks keith
Clever, Keith. Innovative way to resolve a bit of a problem. Nice jon.
During WWII, the US Navy armor-piercing projectiles reverted to thick square threads to hold the base plugs and inserted base fuzes due to distortion of the tough, flexible lower body of the shells (only the nose and upper body was high hardness to punch a hp;e in the armor, since the the explosive filler was in the lower part of the shell and its casing had to resist cracks and breaking) allowing the plugs to be ejected during heavy armor impact at am angle. Older shells had lower requirements about angled impacts and their more conventional many small pointed teeth for threads was found to not grip the shell body tightly emough. Threads have to be tailored to the strength requirements of the usage desured.
Honestly i was fearful we were going to hear a snap when you was doing the last threading.. Machinist nightmare .. great job , thanks for sharing
Thanks for another great video Mr. Keith!
We used to use a turret grinder setup to do our acme threads. Quite a harrowing experience, but there was no chatter. Acme threads cannot tolerate any sort of deflection. Witworth all the way!
I was gritting my teeth as you turned that tap in Keith. Good job.
Pucker factor his an new all time high w/ that tapping sequence! Great video!
It’s the first wood grained bronze I’ve ever seen. I wonder where it was grown? The four jaw seems to have one adjustment screw that has three bad cracks in it.
Good job Keith, was getting a little nervous with the tight tap. All worked out well.
This was great. I always learn something.
Hey Keith, you would do well to stone a little negative rake on that tap to allow cutting a non-ferrous material. It will cut freely and to size. Also it appears that you were looking at the 18th Student Edition of the Machinery's Handbook. Same one I used for years in the shop. Nice video!
Very enjoyable process to watch you go through.
Great video keith.
I have never tried that method if centering in the four chuck.
I will be doing this in future.
Thank you for sharing i found the content very valuable to me.
Very neat trick with the dead center, I will certainly be able to use that. Thanks Keith
Weldon Keith. You have done a great job. Thanks.
Always grateful for the content
Every time I see a Machinery's Handbook referenced, I pause the video & get out my 1971 edition 19 to see what might be the same or changed. These 2 pages are the same as yours though they are listed as pages 1330 & 1331 in mine. I find this is a much better game than drinking to every time Tom @ OxTools says, "Um."
I was sweating that tap right along with you. A lot of torque there but SUCCESS!
Thanks,
John
Great work Keith. I like the way you centered on 4 jaw. That will help on irregular shape. Thank you
For my 10 cents worth, you need to back of more .at leasr every 3rd of a turn to break of the chip curl , its the chip curl that jams up your cut, aaand lubricate, lubricate,,, cheers from Australia,, love your vids
Keith that is shaping up to be a really good fix..Well done..
New sub. Great to see a true craftsman do his thing.
MAN! What a workout that tap job was. It had me huffin' and a puffin' too and I'm just sitting here watching it with fingers crossed. That job needed a feller your size just to crank that tap handle.
Really nice way of centering an odd shape part in the four jaw.
always interesting to watch
Great work!
Loved the way you centered it !!
Doug Doty I
Great job, I enjoyed it. Thank you
Keith,
The English model steam engine makers are sometimes quite short of dollars. So too are other hobby machinists, and so these blokes look for alternative solutions for difficult tasks. One such solution I have seen is the process they sometimes call "gashing," which is really just what you do with a multi-part Acme or buttress thread tap. Instead of having several different profiles in the tap itself (which is convenient, because they are all "timed" or located so as to be in phase with each other), the resourceful amateur machinist would use a tap of the same pitch but with a different thread profile, and in doing so would remove a lot of the material in one or two (or more) passes, thus enabling the final cut to be made with the accurately-ground form tool you had there; the 1/2 x 8 tpi tap.
I have often seen the same process used to cut gears. By "gashing" the part, and removing a lot of the stock material first, you can preserve the more expensive gear cutters by reducing the wear on them.
Perhaps you could have cut an internal thread by single-pointing it in the lathe with a couple of custom-ground bits, with narrower but similar profiles, before using your lucky_find_but_expensive tap?
Note that I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs; just sayin'...
Haha great job Keith seeing that little bugger flex had me on edge aswel ! Happy Easter to you and the family!
Another good video!
Since you were tapping bronze seems like you could make a tap from a piece of drill rod.
Thread it on the lathe then mill a couple of groves for relief. The drill rod would probably be hard enough to cut one thread in the bronze without even heat treating it.
Agreed, very good video but drill rod would not work even if hardened. Taps must have radial relief on each land plus bearing bronze is tough to tap as demonstrated here by Keith.
Whew, I breathed a sigh of relief, High Drama- Keith, when at 37:14 that next oomph, you could almost sense the relief in the poor tap- "Hey, light at the end of this tunnel" as she zips through the remaining bronze.
I was thinking at one point- reverse the tap and come in from the back side when the initial thread form emerged on the inside end of the hole to act as guide. Of course do so only enough to relieve that hole (reduce the overall effective cutting length) so as when again coming from the front it would be less likely to snap the tap, as many others commenters feared. Nice job overall, and as Shakespeare? said- "All's well as ends well". (Who are the bozos that DISlike your videos, ever?) !!
Nice job buddy! Watching that tap flex had me sweating!!! 👍
Nice project but the flex in that tap had me saying stop let cool a little, LoL good job I needed that humor this time of the day.
thank you, i will need to get mine made.
Marvelous stuff, scratch. Anything can be made from scratch! :)
Well done
I ws waiting for that Tap to snap off, very pleased it didn't, a pleasure to watch cheers Dennis
That trick with the dead center is really slick, i'll definitely be stowing that one away
When setting up to duplicate a taper, Morse or ER or 5C collet whatever set a sample of the taper up between centres like that and mount you DI on the compound and adjust its angle until it reads zero end to end. Lock it down and cut the taper. Works every time even with a tool post grinder.
Did exactly the same for my Le Blond. Used Acme thread all thread for the rod and made a very tapered tap using it. In the meantime, someone sent me a tap to us. Made one out of delrin and another out of bronze. With the bronze, I used a regular threading insert to remove lots of stock before using the tap. Even so, it was stressful, hoping not to break the tap. Got it done, but not one of those projects I'd like to repeat any time soon.
THANK YOU...for sharing.
Very nice! I once had to make several of these nuts to fit the Powermatic Logan lathes at school. I had to make several and I was avle to order a length of all thread the correct size and type to re fit 4 lathes at a fraction of the cost of the parts for one. At that time I had been able to find a tap like the one you found. I too was apprehensive but it worked well.
All the best!
Mike
Be aware that the first tap you used was a gun tap, which should not be used in a blind hole unless you have a much deeper hole under the thread depth . That tap drives the chips forward, and you will run into them before getting to the bottom. The proper tap to start the threaded hole would be a taper chamfer tap which would be muncher easier to start. The gun tap that you used should only be used in thru holes.
The suspense of tapping!
Love you work and enthusiasm !
When the tap git half that tight could have been good to just back it out and clear the chips then try again ..
Good job Keith. I kept hoping you'd back the tap completely out and clear the chips from the flutes. Anyway, it worked great tapping that tough bronze material. Now looking forward to the new screw.
you really must examine project to set up working plan to be able to complete the unit, that's where I believe the success comes from. I want to extent my thanks for all the behind the scenes work and the time you put into products you build. I learn so much from your efforts and talent. some of your videos I have watched several times. yes I am a newbie and slowly builtin up my efforts to be a machinist, not just someone to make chips. I owe great deal of thanks for sharing. there is to me no greater feeling then building something scratch.
Hi Keith,thank you for this vid Keep going on with your work and verry sympatic kind of moderatoring.THX Stephan
Keith, I had the same issue finding 1/2" - 10 LH Acme threading tools & rod for my Clausing/Atlas lathe rebuild. Ultimately, I purchased a piece of 3 foot long 5/8" - 10 Acme rod and a round cast-iron nut. I milled the nut similar to the shape you've done here. These larger 5/8" parts require a slight modification to the carriage casting, but they will undoubtedly last far longer than the original parts.
The other option I considered was to thread-mill a bronze nut on the CNC mill. I plan to make a new set of half-nuts using that method since the main lead-screw is 7/8" - 8 Acme.
Looks like you did a great job to me Keith , Thumbs up man !
Wow! First time I've ever seen you with a beard Keith. 😊
Love the centering trick on the square stock! :D
Usually always safe going a few thou over the root diameter of the thread as the process of cutting/forming the thread displaces material as well as cutting so it tends to squeeze up especially in soft gummy materials. That likely is what was happening here. If the lathe had clearance for it you could have made the nut split and shimmed to provide future adjustment and you could have cranked the tap thru in stages and that might have helped.
bcbloc02p
That is a good point about drill sizes for tapped holes. I have written an online computer program for thread drill sizes. If the drill is the same as the root diameter of the thread it is considered 100% depth, but it is difficult to cut the thread. The recommended drill size is 75% thread depth for these common taps because there is a forming effect that you mentioned. Material is squeezed up to create, or 'form', the crest of the thread. For soft 'gummy' materials it can even be reduced to 60%. Often we amateurs do not have a huge range of drill sizes so I wrote this program that tells you the percentage depth you will get with common drill sizes and this helps you choose an appropriate drill. This computer program is a spin-off of the program for calculating gears for your gear train. It is called 'RideTheGearTrain.com'. It doesn't cost anything.
@@Evan-e-cent Your chart would likely be handy to many in a wall form.
@@bcbloc02 The program produces a couple of charts for a single thread size and requires the full thread standard specifications such as UNC, BSW, BSF, ISO-metric etc to calculate the minor (root) diameter. With hundreds of thread diameters, and standards, and two large tables for every thread you would need a huge workshop wallpapered with tables. That is the advantage that the program has. It is online and can be run on a phone, tablet or computer. You select metric or imperial in menu item 3, and then in menu item 5C choose from tables the thread type like UNC, and the thread diameter and pitch, and RUN the program to display the tables of drill sizes with the % thread depth for each drill. The main purpose of the program is to calculate the gear train required to cut the pitch you need. The drill sizes are just an 'extra' feature. It sounds a bit complicated but it is really quite easy. If it is popular I could add a menu item just for drill sizes to make it a bit simpler.
Completely remove the tap often, clear the chips and relube it will then go through a lot easier.
Nice looking square threads on your mill vise.@ 5:47>. @ 36:23 the suspense is killing me!
To be honest, I was wishing you had faced the rectangle stock down to a square before you started machining it. That way there wouldn't have been the flat spot between the radii, and it would have been easier to center it in the lathe jaws.
Landrew0 he doesn't think like a machinist
Nice job on that nut.Wanted to make one for my 6" Clausing,Buying 2 nuts was a lot less than the tap.None of my friends had the tap.
Keith regarding to your method of centering a work piece in the 4 jaw, I must tell you just yesterday I used the same method. I was trying to true-up a bent shaft off “a basket case rebuild” of a PERFORMAX 16-32 Drum Sander. The drive roller for the conveyor belt was about .047” out of round. And with the dial indicator made it very easy to find where I needed and how much to bend it. I set-up a block of hard wood with a 5/16 hole drilled cross grain in a vise to hold without marring the shaft. The shaft was approx. ½” dia. with both ends turned down to 5/16 the end that was bent was approx 3” long. After a few trips between the lathe and vise I was able to get it down to about .003” out of true, I could have spent more time but felt that was good enough as the motor only turns (I guess) less 80 - 100 RPMs. I watch all your videos and I’ve learned a lot watching them, thank very much!
Richard
Good video. enjoyed
Hi Kieth,
I would bet that the hole was always done centered. Once the thread was cut into it, the holes at both sides would look deformed. Slightly wider where the groove of the thread exits the hole.
Hi Keith, great video. I had a similar problem trying to make a new nut for my Colchester. 5/8 square left hand. had to give up on a new nut but did manage to make an anti backlash device so all was good. One observation, watching your tap, I think you needed to back it off further to break the chips. 3 flute tap needs bigger reverse rotation to break em.
But, hey, it did the job well. Like the others, I was nervous when I could see it flexing.
Always enjoy your content, the shops looking great.
Mart.
This poped up at the right time, im working with a mitchel of keighley lathe im pretty sure i need to make a new one of these for it, at the moment borings really tedious with it how it is
19:14 I like your use of timelapse to show your work.
Thank you
Woo Hoo lots of cool little tricks !!!!
At 36:00+ I couldn't watch any longer. Had to close my eyes! Whew. I would never have been brave enough to use that much torque.
Clear the chips and relube when the tap gets that tight.
Slim Pickings I've used very heavy almost like WHEEL bearing grease when tapping gets tight threading.
Have tapped 3 1/2" pipe thread under power using that method. Smokes a little but does the job.
Recipro1 ij
Before running in the tap, look to see how much lead there is in the threadform. Go in that much, about 3 rotations. Extract the tap, clean and clear it, apply tapping lube and reinsert.
In this instance, as soon as there was any difficulty in advancing the tap, it tells me that the flutes are choked. It may take more time but you will waste time trying to extract a broken tap.
Thank you! I was cringing when it was getting really tight! Almost couldn't watch!
Keith, I was yelling at you to take the tap out and clean the chips out but I guess a three year time warp didn't work.
As to the hole size, wouldn't trying the end of the tap into your drill gauge up to the root of the first thread have given a useable idea of the drill size needed. I've used that method many times and it's worked out.
Ron Wilken
Canada.
great little project. maybe the one after this should be a chuck key