How the Thasmin Ship Happened (Doctor Who)
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- čas přidán 18. 03. 2022
- The Doctor Who episode Eve of the Daleks appeared to make canon the long speculated romantic connection between the companion Yasmin Khan and the Doctor. But digging into it a bit more makes me really want to talk about how this whole thing came about.
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There’s a scene in Haunting of Villa Diodati with Yaz that heavily implies she feels this way about the Doctor. So it’s not surprising. But still underdeveloped with regards to how it’s been executed narratively.
Oh good I thought I was the only one that saw that scene 😂
Yeah. This video talks about how Mandip played it to support it potentially leading to Thasmin but the *writing* in that scene was hinting at Thasmin with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.
Yo, yas was kinda confirmed bi in s11 ep 4 Arachnids in the UK (TV story) where her mother asked if she was dating ryan or the doctor.
"Underdeveloped" sums up Chibnall's era as a whole
Vera: "I dislike the timeless child, I dislike the doctor having romance, but most of all, I dislike Chibnall starting plotlines and dropping them"
I think Chibnall needs an assistant who makes sure he thinks through and finishes his plotlines.
That assistant was called russel t davies on season 2 of torchwood
I picked up that Yaz had feelings for the Doctor when she had that conversation with Jack in Revolution of the Daleks. I wish that the writers built more on whatever relationship the Doctor and Yaz have during flux cause then the reveal that Yaz actually is in love with the Doctor would feel a little more earned. (My main critique of flux was that the Doctor and the companions didn’t really interact,, but I digress). As a Thasmin shipper, I just wish that the writers actually invested more time into building their relationship more instead of just shoehorning it in within these last few episodes with 13.
I don't know. I first picked up on Yaz being in love with the Doctor in Revolution of the Daleks (I mean she had a whole conversation with Jack that I thought was pretty clearly about her being in love with the Doctor and Jack noticing it and warning her), and it continued through series 13/Flux. I thought it was pretty clear and was satisfied when Dan pointed it out in Eve of the Daleks.
I thought the same. Though continued through Flux might be giving it too much credit. It was just 13 dicking her around. Only scene that comes to mind is her rewatching her message in Survivors of the Flux
I know there were several viewers who read deeper into this exchange in Villa Diodati:
CLAIRE: It is impolite not to announce oneself, Miss Khan.
YASMIN: Breaking and entering's worse.
CLAIRE: I'm not at fault if Lord Byron selfishly keeps it locked.
YASMIN: What are you after?
CLAIRE: Letters. If he's written about me, I can ascertain his true sentiments.
YASMIN: Or... you could try asking him.
CLAIRE: I have. His answers only increase the enigma.
YASMIN: I know someone like that.
CLAIRE: Mary reproaches me. Insists I should find a more reliable prospect. Not that she can talk.
YASMIN: Perhaps she's right. His eye does seem to wander.
CLAIRE: This enigmatic person of yours, would you trade them for reliable and dull?
YASMIN: My person's a bit different.
That convo is a bit different in that Claire's romantic interest for Byron puts a bit of romantic context on Yaz's response. It is just as easily read as just the Doctor being enigmatic in general, rather than purely about what Thirteen feels about Yaz.
For me, I haven’t watched doctor who in ages, but I’m pretty sure arachnids in the UK had a pretty big hint Yaz was gay
@@mujiescomedy279 what you are referring to is the exchange between Yaz and her Mom but while you can read it that way it was not set up that way. It was more like a typical Joke from a Sitcom "Haha, the Parents are unsure about their Kids Sexuality, how funny."
@@maxkehm5080 Wasn't it actually the opposite? Sonya thought Yaz was with Ryan and IIRC, Yaz seemed uncomfortable then.
The comments brought up in this video by Matt Strevens and Mandip Gill were honestly illuminating. My impression is that Thasmin wasn't initially on the table during series 11, but the rather limited characterisation offered to the main cast resulted in the fans being able to project their own ideas and characterisations onto them, including a possible romantic subplot. At that point, both Jodie and Mandip became aware of the ship, loved it, and brought it to the attention of the higher ups, who decided to implement it into the story going forward. And considering that Chibnall is a writer who takes spoilerphobia to ridiculous extremes (the guy was prepared to completely change the ending to Broadchurch series 1 if the reveal was accidentally leaked), it doesn't surprise me that he decided to keep the planned relationship a secret from the actors even.
The end result is that we get very few hints towards the pair actually becoming a couple until "Revolution of the Daleks", which combined with Yaz's minimal character development and the incomprehensible decision to wait until the antepenultimate episode of this run before actually canonising it onscreen, results in it feeling like the reveal has come out of nowhere. It's a shame that this had to happen really, because while I'm not a big fan of Doctor-companion relationships, the idea of an LGBTQ+ relationship between the main characters was clearly something that would've meant a lot to fans, and it would be a really interesting concept to explore. Unfortunately, as with everything else in his era, Chibnall completely botches the execution, and I'm left feeling frustrated with how much potential has been squandered here
The problem with not telling your actors what the character feelings and motivations are is that it doesn't then come across on screen properly, hence why we now have this odd limbo situation (it seems in part to how Mandip decided to hedge her bets and tip toe on the line just in case). Unless there is an incredible natural chemistry between two actors I really do think it needs to be there on the page and not left to actors to fill in the blanks of the blanks. I'm with Vera, I've never really been into the Doctor / Companion love thang but if Chibnall was going to do it, then damn well do it, just commit to it, put it on the page *and* the screen so we can see it develop not throw a few crumbs which is only picked up by a certain circle of fans while the rest are left shocked and confused at the suddenness of it all.
With Yas my read she had a form of hero worship with the Dr. I really didn't see it as a romantic love. Of the three companions that started with Jodie Whittaker Dr. It seemed to me Yas doesn't acknowledge how dangerous traveling with the Doctor actually is.
Same, and I'm really convinced that's how she's going to die.
I feel like that sort of hero worship can turn into romantic feelings at times. Especially when I was younger, I always found I was more attracted to people I had a sort of 'hero worship' for
An important factor to consider as well is that Eve of the Daleks & Legend of the Sea Devils were filmed as part of Flux, and series are rarely-if-ever filmed exclusively in release order, so the fact that Mandip Gill didn’t know until she saw it on the page doesn’t necessarily mean she didn’t know to play it that way in the episodes leading up to the reveal.
The episodes for Flux were filmed before the filming for the specials. Flux went from December 2020-April 2021. Then EotD, LotSD, and PotD were filmed in episode order from around end of April through October.
I can understand Yaz having feelings for the Doctor but the Doctor having feelings for Yaz isn't believable.
While I'm a huge shipper, I'm still standing by the opinion, that 13 and Yaz had too little emotional bonding - which is why I understand people who didn't see it coming. I'm used to not seeing my ships canon but I still enjoy shipping them and find a lot of scenes, where I can make little jokes like "they're totally in love :D" and such things. So when Eve of the Daleks aired I was surprised and satisfied at the same time.
In the scene with "good hearted weirdos are actually keepers", I was so ready to make such a joke. When the camera focused on Yaz I thought "Hihi :D Yes you do know" and within a second, after they confirmed my thoughts with Thirteens and Dans reaction and Yaz denying that something was up, I was SHOCKED.
Not even in a romantic context- the lack of emotional bonding with any of thirteens companions annoys me the most. I think if we had more time, if 13 didn't ALWAYS pull back when it came to opening up, maybe people wouldn't be as surprised as they were and this Schrödinger situation would not be the case, alas.. we got episodes and episodes of 13 being afraid to share her feelings with the fam and while I think it fits with the doctors history, it should've been an arc that only lasted a season, if not a few episodes. Instead we got the whole era filled with distrust und sectrets and an arc, that repeated itself without a proper resolution.
same! @ everything!
I'd heard the Matt Strevens quote ad infinitum but I was blown away by the comments made by Mandip Gill - that's really interesting stuff.
What an odd situation we find ourselves in - I love the Schrödinger's cat analogy.
I've been slightly frustrated at the divide (yes another one) that its caused in the fandom, one side saying 'the signs were all there', the other saying 'its all suddenly come out of nowhere' and this perfectly explains why both and neither are true. It certainly is interesting and possibly serendipitous on Chibnall's part - and thanks to Mandip's acting choices.
Another brilliantly articulated, well thought out video that at least has made the whole Thasmin (although agreed, atm only a one sided view) a little less fuzzy.
I never personally want the Doctor to be romantically connected to a companion. But... I like this one a lot more than Rose and Ten. So that's a start.
I was okay with it happening once. Given the amount of companions, the situations and the different personalities of each Doctor incarnation, it was going to happen at some point. Especially for a one-sided attraction from a companion towards the Doctor. I was also happy that the Doctor couldn't follow all the way through with it and needed a human substitute to step in for him.
This one lacks any development for me, as shown by the video above. It may have been shipped for a while but that's meaningless. It would have been better to have at least hinted at it earlier from both parties involved. However, when one of your two principle characters didn't know about it until the previously aired episode and there's only two episodes left, it all seems a bit pointless and purely for fan service. Or shipper service in this case.
LOOOL this is such a mood.
I don't I never minded the Rose Doctor romance plot line because of Russells keen sense of character. The doctor was a broken man just throwing himself at danger not caring if he died or not Rose helped him see the light in the universe again and they both fell in love as a result even then Russell didn't give our Doctor the happy ending cause he understands the meaning to the series. This ship with thasmin is like the Martha situation kissing arse the entire time they were on screen because they were attracted to the doctor.
Its entirely to your opinion if you like it I'm just expressing why what you say threw me off a bit you're free to critique my stance on it
A lead character in a series without a deep romantic relationship with someone, though, is rare. And it makes the Doctor feel like less than a fully fledged out character. It’s also an acute issue with 13. People claim that Rose/10 were the overtly romantic couple, but it was also clear that Amy and Clara were the most important people in their Doctors’ lives. Donna and Bill also had deep connections to their Doctors. 13 hasn’t convinced us that she’d go “Good Man Goes To War” or “Heaven Sent” over a companion.
I picked up that Yas was into the Doctor somewhere mid series 11. If this was not planned officially, I’m gonna say that the writers room had a revolutionary. I am not generally a person that looks for extra ships, and found Donna refreshing on the no romance aspect. I think you put it well that we have not heard the doctors side of this.
There is a possible catch in all this of WHEN Mandip got the script. She could have gotten the script gotten with pre Flux or during Flux so she could play into it sooner. Also maybe sooner scripts had stage direction that confirm the direction it was going
That's a good point!
I agree with you about The Doctor in romantic relationships. I've wondered if it was because I'm an old Whovian. 4 was my first doctor, and I'll never forget that they traveled with family. The first companion was his niece, IIRC. So when some had conniptions after Rose because they assumed the companion was supposed to be a love interest, I had serious cringe. I have no doubt Rose was not the first companion to fall in love with our Dear Doctor, but he never returned romantic love, just his own kind of love. It's one of the things I appreciated about Dr. Who (however we spell it. 😉)
First companion of the first doctor was his granddaughter
@@bookwermofthefandoms granddaughter! I was trying so hard to remember the relationship! Thank you!
I agree about no romance between the Doctor and companions). Pertwee was my first Doctor and was my favorite (like you do) but he isn't anymore because I've grown and realized that I like Troughton and Smith more and Tom Baker has mostly replaced Pertwee as my nostalgia fix. I mention this because I don't think this is just an "Old Whovian" thing. To my mind the Doctor's role in those relationships should not include romance. I don't mind romance in Doctor Who. I LOVE Amy-Rory, it was cool when Jo Grant fell in love and left Pertwee. Susan left Hartnell for a romance. I am even okay with the River Song relationship and I would have been okay with the Doctor and Romana if they had done that.
i always thought it was so weird that Rose got over the doctor changing face and personality so quickly. It honestly felt like the 2nd series was written with the romance of 9 and Rose in mind but just took out 9 and put 10 in. It really doesnt work for me even watching it back
I'm a Classic Who fan, as well, and... The sad thing is, I like Rose as a character, but: 1) Her arc is so tied up in her romance with the Doctor that it's hard to *just* like her as a character, and 2) Having the first Black companion spend so much time being jealous of a blonde White woman just felt really icky to me.
I wish they actually made this a story line right from the start of series 11 then Yaz and The Doctor would have worked ❤️
Episode one ends with yas on a thrift shopping date with the Doctor as a gender confused hobo, where she gets the tab for the queerest outfit I've ever seen.
I agree, I think it wouldn't have been so out of nowhere for me. I am not a shipper at all, I just roll with whatever the show says, so I didn't look deeply into anything 😂.
And if you don't tell your actors that's the plan (like how Moffat did tell Kingston she was their child before he told anyone else) then it's hard to have those actors portray said love.
I don't care what they do either way (though I also prefer a doctor who isn't romantically entangled with a companion) but like it does suck that they didn't let the actors know.
I think what Mandip was saying was that she didn't know Yaz's feelings for the Doctor would be flat out addressed until she read the script for Eve of the Daleks but she most likely knew from Series 12 that Chibnall and the writing team would be planting the seed for "Thasmin" intentionally which is why in Series 12 I think Mandip plays Yaz in a very specific way that does indicate her having feelings for the Doctor - I would particularly highlight The Haunting of Villa Diodati which the script does confirm that when Yaz says "My person's a bit different" she is thinking about the Doctor in that moment so while it wasn't initially planned, since Series 12 both the writing and Mandip Gill's performance have very much hinted at Yaz developing feelings for the Doctor and those feelings have gotten stronger over time and it was finally fully addressed in Eve of the Daleks and will be explored in the final two specials!
There are many cases in shows where character direction drastically changed, or certain couples happened solely because of fan reception, and it turned out for the better for a lot shows.
Being doctor who this story will end sadly, but I have enjoyed seeing it developed.
That’s my question isn’t this just being done so we can have so romantically induced tears at the regeneration scene and then the show will be accused of the burying your gays trope.
I just couldn't get into this ship. This era was all over the place and I wasn't ever attached to the characters enough to ship them. The only companion I got attached to from this series in a deeper way was Graham. I want to make clear that I have nothing against the actors. They did the best they could with the material they were given. I'm not as big into shipping within the Doctor Who fandom as I am with others. I agree it was refreshing to see 12 have a more platonic relationship with his companion.
Personally, I hate romance being shoved into any form of medium the only ones I don't mind is either Uncharted or Mass Effect. In uncharted its such a distant thing it doesn't matter, in mass effect you can completely ignore it.
@@morphor What if the medium is romance to begin with?
@@tokublwhovian romance isn't a medium, a genre sure, but one i have no interest in.
No yeah the only ships people like with the Doctor are Romana and River
I think especially when it comes to Queer relationships, there is a difference between knowing the intention, and knowing it's going to happen. It's very possible that the DW team, writers and actors alike, knew that they wanted Thasmin to be a thing, and maybe wrote the show and shot the scenes accordingly, but that doesn't mean they get to be explicit about it. It's entirely possible that Mandip only knew they had the green light to put it all on the page and address it directly when she received the script for the last episode, but had known that the intention was for Yaz to be in love with the Doctor long before that, because there are scenes in s12 and Flux that make much more sense with that in mind.
Definitely agree! Like I know merlin was at a different time in terms of acceptance of LGBTQ+ relationships in mainstream TV but that has pretty much been confirmed to have been seen as some form of love story between the leads, and that magic in that show has strong queer undertones (e.g. hiding it from friends/family for fear of persecution, it not being a choice, and something you might not discover until late in life). However despite the actors and writers knowing this it was never officially canon because at the end of the day this is being written for a studio and audience at the time who weren't seen as being so on board. Either way it is kinda nice to finally start to see queer plots between leads in mainstream shows (even if it has taken until 2022 lol)
Yeah I'm certain that's what she meant. There is so much hinting beforehand but she wasn't sure it was going to be canon confirmed 100%
It's not DW's first LGBT-rep rodeo, though, they've had a number of explicit LGBT characters up to this point, from Jack Harkness to Bill Potts, and the lizard detective lady with her wife and pet Sontaran... Granted, the Doctor isn't usually directly implicated, but I don't think it would have been a long stretch to greenlight
I honestly dunno how it happened? I like Jodie in the Doctor role, and I feel she was let down by the subpar writing of Chibnall’s Era (mostly) but I feel she has absolutely Zero chemistry with Yaz.
I only knew it was happening because of that scene in "The Haunting of Villa Diodati" where Yaz alluded to liking someone.
i think there are some moments and conversations that yaz had about the doctor that probably would’ve been read as more romantic had they been a straight couple (villa diodati, jack harkness, her mom mistaking them for a couple). that said, the writing is still pretty ambiguous even in moments that were potentially supposed to be informed by romance, and i don’t think that’s completely accidental
Oh I agree 100%. If 13 was a man, a lot of people would've said they were going to get together as soon as Yaz's mother asked if they were seeing each other
Honestly, I think Thazmin got jump-started in Series 11, Arachnids of the UK. Yaz's mum Najia starts asking Yaz about how she knows the Doctor. One of the things Najia suggests is that Yaz and 13 are romantically involved, which Yaz denies.
And BOOM, a ship is born.
I don't get why you're surprised they didn't tell actors who were supposed to portray the romance. The previous doctors were literally the character's past, not just interpretations by other actors - actual past experiences of the Doctor, since it is the same character. Chibnall didn't think it important Jodie should know. Why would the upcoming romance be relevant either? They have not cared about developing characters or consistency at all. Previous Doctors were haunted by Gallifrey, this one isn't. The love-hate thing with the Master is gone, she's now literally his victim who was fine killing him. They had an episode on racism, but beyond that, season 11 and 12 both begin with randomly killing black women - I didn't see 13. Yaz is Muslim, which has no meaning for the script at all... (none of the main cast is actually Muslim, it is just a label tacked on to one character for the claim of inclusion) the episodes are like script readings on a set with character traits like labels stuck on them. No need to portray anything, make any qualities a part of the character till lines in the script call for it.
The end result is that this exhibitionism of superior ethics ends up portraying a lesbian romance like it is a matter of interpretation which may not be real feelings at all. Particularly when you contrast with the intensity and prominence of both Rose and River Song. River Song is not even a main character, but the writing and portrayal have such charisma and zero doubt as to the nature of the relationship. Heck the Tardis becomes Sexy for one episode and the intensity of her "romance" of sorts with her "thief" is unforgettable. I'm just ignoring stuff like Madame de Pompadour or Nurse Redfern, etc. In contrast Yaz? It takes the completion of all seasons and you get into specials when you get a one sided confirmation that there are feelings. 5 years and it comes to this. And then you end up either killing your gays, or waste valuable wrap up time in an already mediocre run chasing red herrings. This is not inclusion or representation, it is more like an insult.
That honestly sounds like the best read I’ve heard. No idea where this is going or what will happen, but given the track record, I’m trying to keep my expectations low. Good video!
Honestly, I'm not a thasmin shipper. If there was a time for Thasmin to happen, it would have been revolution of the Daleks. Yaz made it clear it wasn't okay for the doctor to be gone for years at a time and then flux happened. I just feel like the moment for it has passed.
Whoops, put Eve instead of Revolution
yeah that would’ve been a nice high emotion time to make that reveal or have a confession. in hindsight, placing it at eve of the daleks does seem kind of random. unless they were going for a new years romance type vibe? but even then
An other way I understood what she said about knowing when she read it was that she knew it when it was writen on a script, but maybe not on the last one, it might have been an acting indication for an earlier episode, that's what make the most sense for me.
I know this has nothing to do with the video, but I just noticed that Luisa figure in the back and I LOVE IT!
If you look at it there are love stories there's the doctor and rose then there's Amy and Rory, then there's The Doctor and River Song and then there's the love story of Bill and that girl that became that water creature( I forgot her name)
Her name was Heather.
@@happyascheese thank you
I dont like the love triangle, but i really like amy, with rory romantic. Not matt smith, rory. Why vouldnt she just like the dr as friend only in the first one anyways.
@@marocat4749 Agreed, partially because the first time she met him he was an adult and she was a tiny child. It's obvious that to the Doctor, at least, she was always that tiny child. I always saw her feelings for the Doctor as being like a kid who had a crush on her teacher. It was obvious that Rory was her true love and the Doctor was just a way for her to deal with her concerns about settling down.
I adore you, enjoy your vids - agree could we have a couple stories with no shipping? Perhaps especially where the power dynamic is so complex?
I should probably not give my opinion, as I haven't watched the show in years and am not even up to date with this Doctor or this companion. But as a lesbian who's constantly looking for sapphic media, but has also never liked the Doctor being in a romantic relationship with a companion, I feel very torn about the mere premise of this couple. I really like an aro/ace depiction of the Doctor, and even when they break that, I'd prefer it be someone like River Song who's at least somewhat on an equal playing field. (Though to be fair, I know nothing about Yasmin cause I haven't been watching lol. Maybe she's more equal.) I don't tend to like romantic relationships with the Doctor, regardless of what body they're in or who the companion is. But my monke brain also sees a sapphic couple and supports it regardless of any other context.
I'll be frank.. yaz really isn't the doctors equal compared to river.. all yaz has mostly done is sit around and talk to the other companions and sometimes argue with the doctor
@@alephnulI agree to disagree. She is exactly the doctors shadow. Does nothing (except constantly talk with the others during a boring talking about life problems sequence) Always argues with the doctor.. constantly trying to follow in her footsteps... And do a bad job of it. She's one of the worst companions in the show
So to clarify: is “When I read it on the page” referring to Eve Of The Daleks or Arachnids In The UK?
Hands up people, when Yaz said to Dan. 'is it that obvious?', who said, either out loud or in their own head, 'NO?!'.
i hadn't watched the flux arc when i watched the special so hearing the line, i was sure i was missing some crucial info, but then when i turned around to my mum, who HAD been keeping up she looked just as confused as me XD
@@jengerbreadhouse they aren't even together for a lot of Flux. Yes she pines for the Doctor during those years stuck in the past but anyone probably would in that situation.
I didn't attend the entire panel with the producer, but I was around for the part that you quoted and took issue with (about every story since RTD brought Who back being a love story) because I wanted to attend what came after it. He absolutely was including non-romantic love when he said that.
I mean, anyone here remember Donna? She specifically pointed out that the Doctor wasn't her type "A skinny smear" or some such. It was a big deal that they were best mates, not mating. XD
@@eshbena I miss Doctor Donna probably the best era of 10 for me
I've been something of a Thasmin shipper since the beginning. I thought it was a cool idea that had very little foundation within canon so I kinda just thought of it as a cool fandom thing. Then Yaz's "enigmatic person" conversation in the Haunting of Villa Diodati happened and I *hoped* it was Thasmin but I wasn't very hopeful considering it was a queer ship. Flux occured and I saw more foundation for it but it also felt like I was reading too much into things as I'm often told I do with queer interpretations of things. Eve of the Daleks made me so incredibly happy, I had to rewatch it several times for it to feel like I wasn't hallucinating or dreaming because I had been hoping for this for 4 years. I am hopeful that it will be handled well in the last episode but we'll see.
Playing it as "awe and wonder" - that's how I saw it.
For me i really didnt see it and the fact they drew attention to it in the last episode i just didnt find it believable personally. I just felt like it was dropped in so randomly for me. Others definitely saw it but i really didn't and dont really see it now
makes me upset that they didn't tell jodie and mandip earlier if they already knew they were doing it. there's so much potential there. 🥰
also you're conclusion makes so much sense and has put it all into perspective for me. 👏🏼
I'm also not really a fan of romances between The Doctor and the companions. Although Rose Tyler and River Song were the only ones who were really love interests for The Doctor.
River Song....
@@morphor Oh yeah.
Maybe Romana…the actors were definitely [falling] in love and so a bit of that came through on screen, so it’s hard to tell how much of that was intentional, even as subtext.
Overall, I liked them better as colleagues (2nd half of Key to Time, after the Doctor admitted she was competent) than as a couple (later Romana II). Not a big fan of the Doctor being romantically involved with companions, either. But it worked fine for me when there was romantic/sexual tension between the Doctor and non-companion characters in The Aztecs and The End of the World.
River Song was essentially a Time Lord due her conception happening on the TARDIS. I am not sure about romantic relationships with companions from the point of view of the Doctor, who is an over thousand year old potentially immortal alien.
I also am not a fan of a romantic relationship between Doctor and Companion. In this case they are running with it, but I hope it doesn’t mean the will “fridge” Yaz at the regeneration.
I have no idea what this is about, but the comments let me know that this is Dr. Who and this explains everything. 🤣
Ok the they worked on it that early is doubtful, but probably some wtirers did , and i like it. And its playing into their dynamic, somehow. And honestly jaz was so undefined in that dynamic that it yeah worked.
I like it, but yeah should have told at least jody and jaz actress.
I think the “every companion is a love story” I think they mean they have a love story somewhere cause bill had her crushes, Donna got married, everyone has a romantic plot somewhere, not always with the doctor
But there is romance in each one for the most part
There shouldn’t be any doubt that Chibnall deliberately seeded this from the beginning, regardless of how you feel about the ship. I can see how people missed it in series 11, but just like rewatching the first season of Xena in retrospect, it obviously did not “come out of nowhere”. When people say that, it’s a “tell” that their personal feelings about the relationship are overriding their objectivity, IMO.
Can you give some specific examples? Starting in series 12, I see it (and that jibes with what Gill has said about when she started deliberately playing it that way), but I didn’t pick up anything in series 11. And I usually catch those things (I picked up the same-sex relationship vibes in their first ep together in B5, 3 decades ago when that sort of thing didn’t really happen on tv and so all my friends said I was just imagining it, but a season later… [names omitted because those who’ve seen the show know who I’m talking about and those who haven’t, should, so I don’t want to spoil it.]).
@@natbarmore Nothing was explicit, but subtext, and the inference of bisexuality being an element of Yas' character were there from the very start. I'd go so far as to call it bait, and I'm not talking about actor portrayals, but plot and lines of dialogue.
Starting with the first episode, which starts the Present, Future, Past, grand tour adventure formula followed by the will they stay? drop off back home. Episode one puts Yas together with a childhood friend she hasn't seen in years for a meet cute, and immediately follows it up with a strange woman falling from the sky into her lap. End of episode, everything is getting real personal now with the loss of Grace. Yas is asking personal probing questions of the Doctor about her family. The Doc tries to make a quick exit when Yas stops her. "Doctor. Can I just say... You really need to get out of those clothes." D: "Right... it's been a long time since I bought womens clothes."*shrug Now that we've established the pretext for the Thrift shopping date, we cut to Ryan playing the bored chapperone, diddling with his fone, while Yas holds onto a pile of clothing watching the doctor make a mess of the dressing room, until out she pops... wearing oversized boots, waders with bright suspenders over a t-shirt with rainbow stripes across the chest, a floppy coat with rainbow stripes down the lapels, and an earcuff. Instant queer icon in her nonbinary finery. That outfit is loud and proud. Y: "That's what yer going with?" D: 'Yup... by the way I'm broke, who's paying?' ...and then Yas buys it for her. One episode so far, and one date already. There's a quick look from Yas to Ryan, a reply gesture that she should get the tab, and a deflated slouch from Yas, when this time the Doctor keeps it moving with 'also, I need your help on another wacky adventure.' She's wearing the outfit in the next scene.
Raise your hands if you're queer and you've been on a thrift shopping date with a gender confused hobo?
btw, I love that unnamed character. Bi Icon.
The Woman Who Fell To Earth: Doctor: "I'm a traveler without a ship..." Yaz: "Can I just say, you really need to get out of those clothes."
Arachnids in the UK: the scene where Yaz's mum asks if they're seeing each other, and also the later scene in the TARDIS where Yaz longingly says she wants more time with the Doctor, and then Doctor says "Welcome aboard. Properly. Oh. Do you want to do it together?"
I agree, personally I never really like the Doctor being romantically interested in anyone. If you really think about it it's kinda gross for a 1000year old to be with a 25 year old.
The only time a doctor romance really worked for me was Human Nature and The Doctor's Wife, but both of those were unique situations.
Gill might have been talking about that line in villa diaodati …that was actually the first instance of the ship
From the context of the question and her answer, she was not.
Timeless Child is likely to be retconned by the next showrunners. So they're ignoring it as much as they're capable of doing.
Not worried about Thasmin either, since that'll just be a 5 minute done and gone, too.
Its not being retconned
That's the metaphor! It's Schrödinger's _everything_! It has been an entire season and most of Jodie Whittaker's run. Was something left out? Or, are we in movie 'C' now? That character is who, now? Did that sentence start in a different scene?
I hate Thasmin, I think it's dumb and they have no chemistry (let alone character individually), but I think I can probably see what Mandip meant. She said she "found out about it when she read it on the page", probably referring to it being explicitly raised and made clear.
In Flux she's pining over the Doctor like a labrador or whatever, watching that hologram, it'd be a stretch to say they weren't at least trying to convey something about this ship there. So most likely they did know about it during Flux but it's only in Eve she found out they were making it explicit.
I honestly think there's been some miscommunication about it to Matt Stevens or BBC Studios is worried the end result isn't going to go well on social media after The Timeless Child mythos were introduced.
Hmm. I somehow completely missed this coming out. [rereads... being released, I mean.]
Well, I guess I know what I'm watching later tonight.
Ooooh. I may have to start watching Doctor Who again. This looks really cool. But then I'm a shipper so it appeals to me a lot. Especially if it's sapphic! Like, there are not enough sapphic ships in fantasy and sci-fi!
It's possible it would have been an arc of the precovid season 13 but the need to turn that into Flux changed everything. Obviously Captain Jack was going to be a bigger part of that series too.
2:38 - There are a LOT of 'Whoufalldi' (Twelve/Clara) shippers who would disagree with you about that.
I both hope this is handled well and that this is the last time online shipping makes its way into the show. There's really nothing that would imply romantic chemistry in series 11. I think showing the Doctor in a same sex romance is a positive but would have much preferred they brought back River for an episode or introduced a new character intended as a love interest from the get go. Come to think of it a Grace Holloway School Reunion type episode could have been great. I know there are rights issues.
Honestly this is the first time I ever had a fan ship validated..
@@Leylaashley yeah I’m of the opinion they usually shouldn’t be.
@@matthewgleason7495 sometimes going with the fans isn't a bad thing. In fact a lot of shows have been influenced by fans and the real world all that
@@Leylaashley I mama fair point. I don’t think there’s a one size fits all approach.
OMG, I was going to say "Schroedinger's situation" and then you used that exact term. o_O Yeah, the impression I get is that Chibnall has been thinking about *maybe* doing this for quite some time now, but the relationship was 'simultaneously alive and dead' until he decided to actually open the box and lock one in...
first of all, i think we all know that romance between doctor/companion is like a minespewer game (or whatever is it called that game). And, the romance is... well, not very well handled here. Of course, some of the ships work... in some way, but that was because there was development in all the series the companion was in, like TENROSE, both of the seasons had a developing romance.
but with THASMIN... they had THREE. FUCKING. SEASONS to ACTUALLY biuld that up. but NOP, they never give any real kind of romantic tension and the confirmation of yaz having a crush on the doctor came out of nowhere and, there is only TWO episodes to develop it... TWO.
But is not only that, but the characters are so plane (at least i think so) i can't get invested in what will happen now. And, the doctor is also kind of a... idk, she is still treating yaz like dirt sometimes (i don't think any other companion would have accepted that)
this ship is just awful (bullcrap, HORSESHIT, srry, i just H A T E this ship, and, btw, i don't hate thasmin shippers, just the ship). is just a mixbag of poorly developed romance or tension, awful timing and characters that have less personality or depth than a buried under the carpet chicken nugget crumb
Schroedinger's Relationship. If someone hasn't written that sci-fi novel yet, they need to.
being angry that the doctor being in a romance or something like that is stupid and a waste of time
Not me feeling awkward about relationship age gaps bigger than 10 years 😅😅😅
I share your dislike of the doctor being romantically involved with anyone (apart from the tardis, that episode was gold)
Not only is Bill gay, the Doctor is clearly still grieving for Rose, so even if she were straight AND had a thing for older men (which is fine), you leave that. Supportive friend, yes - they each have there own demons and respective journeys. The actors have chemistry yes, and in a way that fits - Pearl Mackie is gay IRL and Capaldi is an actor who refuses to remove his wedding band, even for a role. This may be why it feels convincing.
You think the 12th doctor was grieving for Rose...? No... the doctor got over Rose in the eleventh hour
@@mrdr0161 River.
Minor Correction: Pearl Mackie is Bisexual
Chris Chibnall said he had a 5 year plan. Now I believe that was a lie.
Chibnall never said that. It was a friend (director James Strong, I think) who heavily implied it.
or he was telling the truth and it got derailed by a worldwide pandemic
Timeless Children was the Chibs plan and it was unfortunately hinted at ever since series 11
That's because he never said it
Reconciling the two behind-the-scenes comments, maybe both actors and writers were deliberately hinting but not committing (and both aware of that), but Gil meant that she only knew they were *committing* to the idea when she read the script. It'd makes a certain sense to me to see if the hinting worked and then decide based on that, since ships depend on chemistry.
That said if they knew they were committing by S13, they really could've built it up more over that season beyond hints, and it does unfortunately fit with the S13 pattern of throwing so many underdeveloped ideas at the wall, when stripping down to like less than half of those ideas and *properly* serialising them would make the season a lot more coherent.
I felt there was a thing from pretty early on. But yes originally it was just awe and “fan girl” of the Doctor but as time went on you could see it changing.
Randomly coming back to this one a few years later. I think there is a different (maybe less generous) read on this one... queerbait. Fans weren't picking up on stuff that wasn't there in season 11. A romantic relationship plotline wasn't necessarily being developed, but the queerbait was there.Yas is written to make leading statements like "you really need to get out of those clothes" followed by a first date thrift shopping where Yas gets the tab by the end of the first episode.
The Doctor meets her family a few episodes later in arachnids, and is awkward around them. Nadja probes her daughter about this strange woman she's just met who seems to be rather close with her daughter and asks if they are dating. Not an explicit statement of Yas' bisexuality, but definitely an implication of her mother's suspicions about a potential relationship, and that such is not an unexpected possibility for her. The Doctor doesn't instantly shoot the suggestion down either, leaving it to Yas to clarify their 'friend' status to her mother and to her. "Are we?" She responds as if this was a question that she wasn't sure of the correct answer to... "I mean she did pick up the tab for the thrift store, and we've been on a few tardis adventures... you tell me Yas." She's pinned between her mom and the doctor both asking how she feels about their relationship. We also get the end of the same episode where the question was raised. The Doctor as much as tries to dissuade them from coming along for more adventures, insisting that they are sure. Yas gushes about wanting 'more... more of the universe... more time with you... you're like the greatest person I've ever met.' She's sure. She want's in. Now, is any of this explicitly romatic? No. It's not... but the topic has been raised. They're just friends at the moment.
A few episode Later we get Demons, and more meeting of Yas' family. The Doctor officiates her Grandmother's doomed marriage. They get henna together for the wedding ceremony and the doctor makes trans jokes that Yas plays off awkwardly, knowing her family really isn't getting it. Nothing explicit, but so far we've had Tea, a shopping date, meeting the family, questioning from a nosy mum about whether their dating, the "are you sure you wanna do this" almost confession scene, and now the 'getting to know grandma' family episode, and we're about 2/3rd of the way through the season.
For an on screen relationship that has nothing explicitly romantic going on they sure have gone through alot of the motions though, haven't they? I cannot believe this was done in complete ignorance by the writers of at least the potential implications. Fans didn't glom on to the idea of a potential romantic relationship for no reason. As early as after season 11, it seems that the fan reaction was known by the production staff, and the idea was brought up of developing it with no objections from the actors. At this point, you would think they'd at least workshop the idea.
The non-explicit references to Yas' queer identity and developing feelings for the doctor get worked into the scripts, but always in such a way as to never be actually confirmed. I think that by the time you get to Yas' runaway plotline in Can You Hear Me? and the hallway scene comparing Yas' crush to the young lady being strung along by Lord Byron, and the "she was the universe" ending of Villa Diodati, Yas' queer identity and her crush on the doctor were pretty damn explicit. Hell, we've come full circle back to the "more of the universe/you" ending from spiders.
But... is it explicit though? Both examples leave just enough wiggle room to be written off. We don't actually get the details in the runaway story. That cop is pretty coded... a queer reading makes the most sense... but is it explicit? No. The narrative parallels the two characters in Diodati, but is the langauge explicit about whether were talking about the doctor being closed off and emotionally mysterious in a romantic sense? I think it's pretty goddam explicit, but there's wiggle room. Just enough too tease the queer audience, but always just short of being undeniable.
Then Flux happens and yer not a minute into the first episode before they are thrown onto a mattress together. Okay yer just queerbaiting now. Yer gonna drag this out aren't you...? Yes they are. Hugs. Pining. Hints and no development. Parallels again between Bel and Yas pining over holograms on their quests to find their lost loves. By the time of Eve of the Daleks the question of what was gonna happen with the Doctor x Yas relationship was an elephant in the room so big it could no longer go unadressed. The entire episode is about their 'kinda getting toxic at this point' tension, and it's fricking Dan who confronts them both and they end the episode still not having dealt with their sh*t, but we... the audience have been told explicitly, undeniably, yes, the storyline you've been watching for 3 seasons is real. We're acknowledging it. See... the white guy said so... (sorry thas not fair. I'm just pissy.)
Then LotSD happened, and omg the relationship confrontation/confession/we're finally gonna talk about this scenes felt extremely bolted on to that script. The episode is a mess. The resolution is awkward and unsatisfying, and it ends with basically "i'm about to die in the next episode, so nothing can ever really come of this. It's not you babe, it's me. Can't we just go on like we have been for one last episode? That episode comes, and their final goodbye is a hearty handshake and an 'off to die now, byee... and get therapy for how badly I've treated you, thanks.' It reads like they never intended to confirm anything. It reads like the PotD ending was where they were always headed, but at some point, during the development, they took a hard left turn at the specials and decided to try and rewrite it. They didn't actually change the ending, but they tried to cram in as much as they could to be explicit about the queer subtext they had been writing into the show for 3 seasons leading up to this, but had never intended to be explicit about until now. Almost like somebody realised that they had queerbaited too close to the sun, and they needed to fix it somehow with only 3 episodes to go.
Simple explanation... it was always bait. They never told the actors how to paly it because they never wanted to pull the trigger on an actual queer story. They wanted string the audience along and never deliver. They thought better of it at the last minute and tried to course correct, but it was too late. Thus schroedingers gay reveal. Queers in the audience screaming "Finally!!!" and others saying "What? Where the hell did this come from?! It's not a mystery... it's just queerbait.
I love love in stories and doctor who has given us some great ones in my opinion but I find it so unfortunate that thasmin is getting shoehorned in at the last minute rather than getting a long beautiful arc like tenrose, the doctor and river, and amy and rory did. I wish I could root for thasmin but since I have no emotional connection to it I can't and that sucks
Producers plan,the Doctor laughs.
When Yas said: “You're like the best person I've ever met.” in season 11, I started to theorize she was actually in love with Doctor. I am not a fan, but I always treated this like a canon thing, I just hope the Doctor doesn't return her feelings.
On the subject of The Doctor's romantic life in general, I both agree with you and disagree.
On the one hand, there are a lot of reasons to be against it. Romances are too often forced into stories that don't need them, and often add nothing to the story. Society is so obsessed with romance, that (maybe) 80% of all songs are love songs... Just stop! Not every story has to be a love story. However...
On the other hand, realistically speaking, I would absolutely fall in love with The Doctor. They're charming and aloof and bonkers and dangerous and hawt. And they save humanity on the daily. What's not to love? Except...
On the third hand, The Doctor is... complicated. Talk about trauma - The Doc has been through the generational trauma of a bakers dozen of their own generations, in a constant war with time itself. That's a lot of baggage. And a lot of time. The Doctor romancing a human kinda reminds me of vampires dating teenagers. And more importantly, The Doctor knows all of this by now. They've been through it all.
That's why I'm here for unrequited love for The Doctor. Anyone could fall for The Doctor, but The Doctor should not let themself fall for anyone. Not ever again.
(At least... Not any human. Any other Docaster ships out there?)
There’s shippers for 2 and Jamie, 3 and Jo, 4 and Romana, 9/10 and Rose, 11/12 and River, 12 and Clara.
@@tokublwhovian I'm here for River Song. She's basically a Timelord. But Timelord and human is an awkward temporal dynamic.
I saw it but didn’t believe anything would come from it. At this point in time I worry it will be another situation with a companion that will end badly. (I’m still pissed off about Donna Noble and Martha).
But here’s what I saw from the beginning. It was about a whole lot of non-gay emotions that lead to attraction, crush/and or love.
You have a first meeting. A slightly older person suggests an adventure that intrigues you to the point of actually considering it.
This person fascinates you. Maybe even becomes a hero in your eyes. You like being near them. Call it friendship development.
As you spend more time with that person, your admiration deepens. Sometimes that turns to a crush or even love without you realizing it until someone else says something about it.
Then you stop and think about it, and pieces of your experience take on a new meaning.
That’s sort of how I saw this play out.
But I’m a skeptic (and lesbian) who doesn’t trust TV much. I really didn’t expect it to happen.
Dawg The Cat
Why can't the doctor have relationships?
The docotor can with equals, which makes kinda diffult since time lords being a rare breed these days. A centuries old being and changining appeareances, The Doctor is just in such a diffenrt place than say a 20-30 something old person as we have here.
“Running out of time”
Chibnall, in a nutshell
- Wrapping up stories
- Flux
- Paying off plot threads
I wouldn't mind them being a thing... The doctor loved rose ...and the guy from torchwood and river too..
This whole thing feels to me very much like the writers and/or higher ups were being vague, and Mandip's response in the panel was because she'd been told 'oh yeah, maybe we'll get to it later' a few too many times, so when she was finally told it would be happening in the special, she didn't believe it would actually happen until she saw it in the script.
Yo, yas was confirmed bi in s11 ep 4 Arachnids in the UK (TV story) where her mother asked if she was dating ryan or the doctor.
My interpretation is a bit more cynical in that they were queerbaiting until they weren’t. There are a lot of shows that when the creators hear about a popular ship in the fandom (especially when its queer) they lean into it without ever making it explicit. Its very possible that they were deliberately writing scenes that would appeal to thasmin shippers without making it explicit. But then for some reason changed their minds and made it canon. Possibly because they knew they only had a few episodes left and figured they might as well throw it in there.
I haven't been keeping up with the 13th Doctor that much, but I did watch the last 2 series all the way through and I didn't see any signs of romantic interest between Yaz and the Doctor. Whereas back during Legend of Korra, like 1 or 2 seasons before the finale I saw them placing in little hints of a romantic interest there between Korra and Asami, and I never ship characters, and I was like "wait, they can't really be doing that, can they???" And then they did. So I'd like to think I would pick up on something subtle but idk, I also haven't been too invested in recent Who which could be affecting how I see things.
A better example of how to do it is in RWBY. There are two main characters in the show that were shipped since their first interaction. And the voice actors of both of those characters have always been very vocal about their support for this ship. And as the show went on, both the ship dynamic in the show and how the voice actors talked about them has shifted. Year after year in became more and more obvious that they were going to be canon. Neither the writers nor the voice actors will actually outright say it will happen because they are very tightlipped about anything concidered spoilers. But in the show we already had one character commenting on how close these characters were and that there were probably romantic feelings involved and they already act very intimatly with each other. I can't say when the voice actors found out that it would happen but it is clear that they knew before the show became much more obvious with it too. And having been part of this slow build up both in the show and outside of it and knowing that with the new season that will be airing this year it is very likely that there will be pay off for that build up, makes me appreciate how everyone in the show went about it. Compare it to what you described, I can still see how some people also had at least a little bit of build up for their ship but that was not reflected with how the Doctor Who creators talked about it. I don't know, it is just an interesting compairison that popped in my head.
Let's not pretend this reveal came out of nowhere folks it was as obvious as Martha Jones' attraction to the Doctor
2:10 just on this.... do you think the doctor could be read as aromantic or aroace? I'm aroace and I have claimed the Doctor as an ace arospec icon
(there is a little too much canon romance for me personally to claim them as fully aro but I think they're definitely on the spectrum and their romantic attraction shifts between and during regenerations. some incarnations are more aro than others. also they're definitely 110% asexual).
There was an entire novel back in the wilderness years about how the Time Lords are all asexual. Funnily enough, David Tennant is two-for-two when it comes to "playing characters who were explicitly stated to be asexual in the original iteration of the work but then got allo-washed for the purposes of ship-teasing with their co-star because the lead writer perpetually horny on main".
Maybe it’s just me but I can’t see this ship being a two way street in universe, mainly because 13 tends to keep stuff very close to the chest, a very do as I say not as I do feel. And then clearly doesn’t like to tell anyone what they’re truly thinking. Wouldn’t surprise me if Yaz ended up with a Martha or Amy style love instead of a Rose.
_"The Timeless Child has barely come up again"_ Huh? The entirety of _Flux_ was built on top of the Doctor being the Timeless Child. The series starts with the Doctor seeking out Karvanista to discover more about her secret past as the Timeless Child. Tecteun - the Timeless Child's adoptive mother - then sees that the Doctor isn't ever going to let it drop so starts the Flux and releases Swarm - the Timeless Child's ancient enemy - to at least slow her down while that happens. The whole last season was about the ramifications of the Doctor being the Timeless Child.
There are many valid complaints to be made about _Flux_ but "did not further the story of the Timeless Child" wasn't one of them.
Very late to the party, but I might as well give my 2 cents
I'm personally not fan of the whole Thasmin thing as it just feels hollow at best and toxic at worst. The characters did not have any actual meaningful bondings, let alone actually have the 2 get to know each other and open up on things that maybe hard for them, you know, a sign of having trust in the other. For example when we learnt about Yaz running away and potentially being depressed in the past. Or how about when in Spyfall she was trapped in that other dimension and was freaked out and shook by the whole thing. The doctor didn't comfort her or try to make her feel better. It was Ryan of all people who at least attempted to help her.
Some shippers may say "why does this matter"? Well, because usually people actually try to comfort others in need and the Doctor has already shown to be doing that over the course of Class and NuWho. And at least to me those kinds of interactions are way more important and telling than the whole "omg, they looked at each other" thingie. Like I would call the whole holo-call scene do what I was hoping to see earlier, because it shows that these characters actually care about each other.
And outside of these very little interactions (they really don't have much actually) they have been toxic to each other. Revolution, most of Flux and even Eve, they have been mostly shown as bad and toxic. And keep in mind Yaz has abandoned her family, her job and her ordinary life for the Doctor, who still doesn't even tell her anything. I just don't see how this is supposed to be cheered on when we know there's only 2 episodes left of this era and most likely Yaz won't stay.
I get that representation matters, but surely there are way better ways to actually handle these, right? Heck, that scene where Yaz admitted her feelings was actually a scene that I could relate to because the idea of "having feelings for someone but fear to tell them" does resonate with me, despite not being gay. It's just that the "build up" and actual interactions within these 2 well...the less said the better.
I will try to be open-minded on how this will be handled in last 2 episodes, but I will have my expectations very low for sure.
About "Bullet Point Plans" - I 100% think this was the case. Chibnall stepping down can't come soon enough for me...
I like shipping, but I just feel like they have no chemistry whatsoever. I'm not sure this doctor can have chemistry with anyone with how emotionally stunted she seems. It feels like they were so worried about people saying they made the female doctor too emotional that they went in the complete opposite direction to the point where it seems like she has trouble expressing them at all.
Jodie and Mandip were definitely playing the angle starting in s12 with a lot of awareness. Mandip definitely meant that she wasn't sure it would be confirmed as a canon romantic ship
Don't scripts have stage directions, isn't it possible that Mandip saw one of the stage directions, directing her reactions to be in a romantic angle, 'on the page' a lot earlier than is being assumed?
Taken within a vacuum, yes that's possible. Within the context of her answering the question at Gallifrey One, no I don't think that's what she meant at all.
oh my friend, this was definitely the plan, and it's working just the way they want it to.
We've seen it before, over and over
Step 1. fandom ships a gay couple
step 2. creative team catches wind of the ship and catfishes the fans without actually committing
step 3. main character finally comes out of closet
step 4. main character dies
step 5. give yourself brownie points for being woke
step 6. continue your creative works with out having to deal with a gay character or the baggage that comes with it
Does Castielle ring a bell, anybody??
When she says “got the script”. I reckon she could’ve meant the rewatching the message scene. Which was clearly played as romantic longing.
I was in the room. She was referring to Eve of the Daleks.
@@CouncilofGeeks ah cool thanks for answering. Keep up the good vids x
I'm in the middle about this. I both did and didn't see it coming, and I think it's both a good and bad thing (I apologise in advance, all my comments end up like essays).
I did see this coming because I'm in a lot of queer, nerdy spaces on the internet so I had a lot of Thasmin stuff on my feed, and it would come up a lot whenever I was reading 13th Doctor fan fiction (I wasn't actively looking for Thasmin stuff). I thought it was shippers being shippers as per, but I also saw some validity to it (in particular reading a fic that had Thasmin in it written May 2020 that was pretty much on the mark on Yaz's behaviour after 13 was missing, shown in 2021 new years special). However I decided to ignore it because I didn't believe it would actually happen. I was therefore surprised when Yaz's feelings actually became cannon.
For similar reasons to what is described in the video I wouldn't like a companion x Doctor romantic relationship. I can't rewatch series 2-3 because of it, I do, however think the Doctor can have romantic relationships (like with the Master/Missy, River Song etc), but those relationships have to be different to a 'normal' 'human' relationship, because the Doctor isn't human, and doesn't live a normal life.
The way Thasmin was dealt with in the episode was pretty good, the main thing standing out to me is that both Yaz and 13 are aware that they don't have a lot of time left together, and as the audience we can therefore see that no true relationship can form from that, which is good. If it's a thing of only Yaz having feelings, I think that could easily work in this situation, unlike with Martha, for a number of reasons. 1) There is only a short period of time before 13 regenerates, so any angst won't be there too long. 2) The situation is a lot simpler than the 10-Martha thing, because 10 was still pining after Rose, so he didn't see Martha's feelings, or even see her as anything but Rose's replacement, but that's not what's going on with Thasmin. 13 loves Yaz (in this scenario platonically), and sees her and all her feelings for what they are, and is just choosing to ignore them, but she does actually see them which means, if nothing else, she can process that and try and figure out the best thing to say, and how to deal with it rather than being put on the spot and causing more pain. This, I believe if written well, will allow for a smoother and less painful experience for Yaz.
Regardless of all that, out of all of the companion x Doctor ships this feels the most natural to me. I admit that I'm biased because I'm LGBTQ+, but I feel that Rose, Martha, and Amy in particular, all happened because of the heteronormative thing of a man and a woman can't be friends without more-than-platonic feelings happening. Whereas Thasmin was created because of shippers, which isn't a much better basis, but I'd still argue it's better. But that's just my personal opinion. Again I am biased because I HATE that heteronormative thing, both in media and people expectation of it irl.
I have a question about Yaz and 13. If you set up a love story between them is it actually that progressive? If you take the doctor as one character with different faces the The Doctor has always shown more interest in women. So it makes sense that 13 would also show interest in women. Now if 13 showed interest in a man surly (and bizarrely) that would almost be more progressive because it would actually be a different choice for the Doctor.
I don’t think you know what the word Progressive means.
@@tokublwhovian I do but I’m looking at it in context of the character of the Doctor and the Doctors own history. If you just viewed it as 13’s journey it’s kind of progressive but in the wider context it really isn’t.
A lot of the ships in Doctor Who, especially involving the Doctor, are kind of a nudge nudge wink wink we're going to be very obvious without saying definitively. My assumption would be that one side was coming from the angle of we were hinting at it between the lines since it was mentioned by Jodie Whittaker and the other side was coming at it from the angle of oh so we're being unambiguous here
Personally, the queerer the Doctor is, the happier I am, and these two actors have fantastic chemistry, so I'm all about it!
I'm personally really excited that the show confirmed that Yasmin loves The Doctor. I had been reading it in her performance, but that could also be my brain wanting to make everything gay. I guess we'll see if the feelings are requited. I hope they don't do a Martha-esque story with her. I think they meant that each series is a love story with the companions in the cinematic terms of love story. That includes platonic and familial love.
Now that the Chibnall era is over, and Legend of the Sea Devils and The Power of the Doctor have aired, I think what happened was Chibnall decided he could use Thasmin as convenient B-plots for both EotD and LotSD in the mad scramble to write both of them when the BBC asked for an extra episode and he had to scrap the original New Years episode because of production issues (the sets couldn’t be built in time).
Since it would be wrapped up in the two episodes with a “let’s keep things status quo” resolution (even though it clearly wasn’t done in a strong enough way to signal to fans that there wasn’t going to be any continuation of the plot in PotD), he wouldn’t have to rewrite or rework plans for PotD.
Since Mandip had done all the work to set up the possibility of it being included, he didn’t “have to” do any work to actually set it up in previous scripts.
(And maybe a bit uncharitably, I wouldn’t be surprised if he wanted the kudos for including some kind of queerness beyond the ancillary characters - 1/4 of whom he killed off)
My read of Strevens interview where he talked about Thasmin was that it was really forgotten about - at least by him - after Jodie brought it up to them post-S11. (I also found it rather strange how quickly he went into praising John Bishop for the scene in EotD, and proceeded to go on about him for an extended amount of time)
Overall, I was really disappointed with how it was all handled. Mandip and Jodie did well with it, especially Mandip, but there’s only so much they could actually do with what they were given. I’m a shipper, and have been since Arachnids in the UK (when the ship really started to take off), and boy, I kind of wish they had just left it to subtext instead of…whatever-the-hell we got. Best thing about it was definitely getting to see Mandip act her butt off in the episodes.
I should add that there’s a myriad of other reasons why I wish they had kept it to subtext instead, not the least of which were the way the character of the Doctor was characterized as emotionally/mentally distant and pretty toxic and abusive to Yaz in a number of instances - including throughout Flux and the specials, and without it ever being a part of the story for the Doctor to learn from or overcome. It just was.
My thoughts... I can see Yaz having a crush on the Doctor, but I wouldn't find it super interesting, since it's already been done a good number of times, and she's not developed enough as a character to make it really engaging... And I can see it if squint, but it's not been organically developped over time. They had three entire seasons, and they just sprinkled two or three brief moments, and most of these scenes are Yaz reflecting by herself or with other characters, without the Doctor being present. It's reeeeeeaaaaaally weak tea.
And I do not like the Doctor being in love with a companion either, it's just too weird, unbalanced and potentially toxic. I love Rose in herself, but she's only 19, I would barely want to pair her with an adult over 25... Yikes... And I generally like romance, the romance of the Doctor with River Song for example is iconic and amazing, but it works because River is a more mature character, who's very strong and independent, and she's a time traveler too, without help from a Time Lord, so they're on much more equal footing. But with companions... NOPE
Maybe the writers were testing the waters by putting a fair bit of it in there but were only going to go all out if the audience response was positive enough. Maybe the actors knew that much.
Chibnall ran out of ideas and decided to appeal to the few fans Yaz has.
SPOILERS FOR THE GOOD PLACE SEASON ONE
It reminds me in a way of The Good Place where they made the decision not to tell the major cast members besides Ted Danson and Kirsten Bell that they were in the bad place, because they didn't want the actors to give away the twist. They did however, tell Ted Danson and Kirsten Bell because they were the draw cards in terms of actors and it wouldn't be fair to leave them in the dark when their notoriety was a key reason new viewers would want to try the show. Also for Ted Danson he could play the part of a bad guy pretending to be a good guy. For that show keeping your actors in the dark made sense. Here it seems like it wasn't thought through
I wish they would leave romance between Doctor and Companions out of the show. I like the show for its escapism and adventure. Domesticity just brings me right out of the story.
Pardon my ignorance, but what do the letters ‘Th’ represent, and why is this being called a ‘ship’? ‘Thasmin Ship’?
THe Doctor, presumably. Yeah, it's not one of the best shipnames. It makes me think of Tasmin Archer more tha naything else.
I believe it’s Thirteen and Yasmin. Thasmin.
@@CouncilofGeeks
That... does make more sense.
I'd have gone with Thirsmin. Or Yasdoc.
@@CouncilofGeeks Thanks for that!