Thinking through Science, Mythology, Misogyny, and Trump led me to fully deconvert - Elvine
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- čas přidán 9. 08. 2023
- Today I spoke with Elvine, who grew up in a Roman Catholic environment, moved to Protestant Evangelicalism, but then began to investigate in depth the truth claims of Christianity, and ultimately fully deconverted.
We discussed many topics, including:
• Growing up exposed to Catholicism with a focus on mass, good works, and prayers to saints.
• Eventually becoming jaded in the Catholic environment and converting to evangelical Protestant Christianity.
• Being exposed to purity culture for the first time, when she spent time with evangelicals.
• Hearing in church that god loved her and had a plan for her life.
• Feeling like evangelical Christianity was fulfilling what she was missing in the Catholic church.
• Hearing evangelicals treat all other faiths and denominations with disdain and even describing them as heretical and demonic.
• Concluding that Catholicism was wrong and evangelical Christianity was Biblical.
• Being told by Catholics that she was in a cult and was becoming extremist when she moved into Protestantism.
• Believing that people in her life who knew witchcraft were able to keep good things from happening to her.
• Seeing her and other evangelical Christians developing a strong persecution complex.
• Praying for a long time to speak in tongues, and eventually developing the skill herself.
• Realizing the strength of the placebo effect.
• Being told that strong-willed and opinionated women have a "Jezebel spirit" that reflects a lack of being quiet and submissive, and that if she became more compliant, the right man would see her good qualities and want her as a wife.
• Dealing with internalized misogyny and self-hatred, feeling terrible for not conforming, and being told that extended singleness was a punishment for not being a "Proverbs 31" woman.
• Seeing that Jesus supposedly freed humanity from the curses from the Fall, but that those curses still remain on humanity.
• Doing constant mental gymnastics to maintain the idea that god is in control and that he will make everything okay in the end, despite the cognitive dissonance showing otherwise.
• Facing nonstop confusion about the will of god in the context of god sometimes closing doors but wanting us to just wait longer, or to work harder, or realizing that we were self-deceived in thinking it was god's will, but it really wasn't, or that Satan was thwarting god's will, or that god would find a creative way to make it still work out in the end, but is temporarily testing us.
• Realizing the interconnectedness of Christianity with racism and sexism.
• Seeing that the Yahweh character's actions in the Garden of Eden story show him to be a narcissistic, gaslighting psychopath.
• Learning that King David was very wicked, just like Jezebel, but he is strangely seen in a good light and his songs are still sung today, yet Jezebel is villainized.
• Learning about how Christianity spread to sub-Saharan Africa through colonialism, and that Africans were taught to identify with Jesus' suffering as a means to endure the colonialism and the loss of their culture.
• Realizing that the "fruit of the Spirit," such as gentleness, is absent in Christian culture.
• After deconversion, feeling immense freedom from the nonsense and bizarre mindset of the Christian worldview.
• Understanding that it affects people of color to pray to a savior god figure that they are groomed to see as white and male.
• Deconstructing the concept of fallen angels, and realizing that if heaven were real, it wouldn't be perfect, as we imagined, and that god could have created them genderless if they didn't want them to ever have the option of copulating with human women and creating the Nephilim.
• The importance of giving yourself the authority to question the Yahweh character.
Many thanks to Elvine for sharing her story!
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Tim may be reached by email at: harmonicatheist@yahoo.com
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Ending music by Eyal Raz, "Friends"
• Friends
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“Make it make sense” Elvine said a few times in this interview, which is a perfect summation of the whole religious thing no matter which version you were raised in. Once you scratch the surface of all the stories you were told as a child & start asking, “Does that really make sense?” … it all falls apart. I think about how trusting I was as a child. I accepted the stories without question because I trusted my parents. I trusted the adults. I had such a trusting heart. If I could go back & tell that child-me anything, it would be, “Girl, just because someone ‘above’ you gives you a story does not mean you automatically have to believe them! It’s ok to ask questions, be dubious, think about things for yourself!”
👍 Make it make sense. Would like to see this on kids tee shirts.
Yes as children we sort of live in a cocoon that makes us incredibly happy!
Absolutely, I was a literal child because so many adults lied to me about the simplest things. I don't know if they call themselves protecting me or were just mindlessly talking. You know this stuff made no sense. I remember being doubtful, puzzled, and confused. I also knew I couldn't question, "God" or the adults because they just made up some crap to fit the situation which made me distrust them all the more. I was told it all was such a 'mystery". Who knew it was a world-size lie.
l would tell my child-self the same as you, question everything, all the time. Just because some 'grownup' said something doesn't make it true for adults can be dumber than children because they refuse to handle/accept the truth so they have to lie to themselves.
Agreed. I wish I could go back in time and talk to my younger self and protect "young Elvine" from indoctrination.
Absolutely BRILLIANT!!! Her mind is on fire! As an ex-catholic, her story was very relatable. I have to watch this again!
100% Elvine is awesome! --Tim
Thank you! I appreciate this. And yes, I have an ADHD brain 😅. Thank Goodness Tim is an amazing interviewer.
Agreed. Great person and story.
"it's weird that the power of god never really exceeds the power of the placebo effect." 🎯 53:43
First of all , I’m 63 years old and I don’t personally know any other black atheists.
Secondly , The few black “atheists “ I see on social media seem to take the
agnostic / atheist stance and that’s great,
but they give advice on things sprinkled with a bit of magic and spirituality , just short of saying,,,
“ We gotta believe in something “ , or a higher power .
If I hear those words again “ Higher Power “
I might need therapy.
Sorry for rambling. This was a good video.
refreshing !
Thanks.
Not rambling at all, it's a good point that doesn't get talked about all that much.
This sort of "spiritual" "new age" woo often seems to persist even when the deities and organized religion have been dropped.
I've had limited success getting people to move away from that sort of stuff. But I'll admit that it's a problem that escapes me. These ideas are so amorphous and people behave so noncommittally towards them. It's hard to get them to realize that carrying around magic rocks or whatever isn't actually different from believing in anthropomorphic deities.
I feel your frustration.
I love, love, love your comment. When I first deconverted I felt so alone. Like you, I noticed the same thing: many people call themselves "atheists" when they're really "ex-Christians". Very quickly they tried to convince me to follow another deity or religion or spiritual practice or superstition. ☹ But I can assure you that there are a number of Black atheists out there that don't believe in anything supernatural. 😄
@@herminepursch2470 It seems to me you're not very observant.
Well if they feel they need to believe in a higher power, what would be the problem with that? For me I find the problem with the Christian community is sometimes it feels controlling about how/what somebody should believe. I think if you become an atheist you also shouldn't control what/how people believe either. It goes both ways.
Great to see another African here. It’s hard to get Africans that will openly admit leaving religion. Brilliant interview with a brilliant, beautiful lady, I say that respectfully🙂.
Thank you! One of the biggest reasons I decided to go public was because I knew very few Africans that were willing to be vocal about being atheists.
I'm happy to see someone who is black and female speak up against religion. As the stereotype is that we are all happy, clappy church going people. We should normalise athiesm in the black community.
@@ElvineBelindaA From the point of view of a white US citizen, it's also really great to hear someone African talk about the colonial aspects of Christianity--I know that Catholic countries sent the missionaries first, and that in my country, religion and its supposed wonderfulness was our excuse for genocide, rape, theft, invasion...(just as it is in the bible). I'd love to hear more about some of the African societies you mentioned, before the incursion of Christianity. I think it's helpful to have alternative histories, if we're going to do something different in the world.
This video is one of the best!!! Elvine is on it, she hit point after point. I hope she does start a channel because she blows up religion exposing it's confusing nonsense. Thank you, Tim.
Yes! Elvine is awesome and does a great job talking through the issues.
Thank you for your support and encouragement! This means a lot to me.
@@ElvineBelindaAI would love for you to share your story on my channel. I love that you address the psychological fallout from these beliefs. How can I reach out to you?
@@KemeticCenteredLiving Sure! I just added my email and Twitter Handle to my CZcams profile.
@@ElvineBelindaA cool, I will reach out to you.
Elvine's story is kinda like a speedrun of several generations of my family's history.
Catholic, to evangelical, to atheist in three generations. Kinda funny tbh. So much overlap all compressed into one person's experience.
Gosh, I really hope my family will get to the "atheist stage" with the next generation.
Had very similar upbringing in Nigeria but from the Anglican church, evangelicals were pretty much like cults at the time in the 70s & 80s. Today, American styled crooked, corrupt and extremely money minded televangelist have dominated the country, spewing their false messages to the hopeless. I rejected christianity in my late 20s, living in Texas in the early 80s, a self identified atheist like me was very rare, a black one especially. Glad to see more people are seeing the light.
It’s rare to find a black atheist or agnostic person in general. Most of them are “Christian”, “Hebrew Israelites”, Muslim, or Islam. Some even try to locate these quests to find african religious roots or Wicca BS. I’m over all of that stuff.
Loved this video! Thank you for sharing your story, especially the part of being a feminist. I've been shamed so much for being "too independent," not being married and having a bunch of children, having "too many" opinions, etc. (especially since I came out of Mormonism AND Christianity 🤦🏼♀️). But I'm learning that I'm just fine as I am. 😊 I'm so glad to get out of all of it.
I wish more women/people would talk about this. I spent years feeling alone and dealing with self-hatred because of religion and, like you, getting out of it was the only way for me to finally realize that there was nothing wrong with me ♥. I'm still working to repair the damages.
Yes it’s a misogynistic & sexist to be apart of religion. It was never rooted around women putting ourselves first. The goal is the be married & a baby making machine then put everyone before ourself while being handmaidens low-key. This is why I never cared for religious groups because of this particular reason. The indoctrination is something serious.
@@ElvineBelindaA Yes, it would be wonderful to talk about this more. It's so accepted; many people who see racism don't see misogyny at all, it's "just the way it's supposed to be and always has been". No, it isn't -- not either one.
Elvine is captivating. Very clear, passionate, and experienced. I love that she brought the receipts and didn't back down. I'd definitely subscribe to a channel of hers.
Thank you for your kind words!!! 😊
Exactly, I don’t think I have ever seen god do more than a placebo effect.
I hate the fact that suffering is glorified. There is nothing great or amazing about going through trauma after trauma.
Great point.
I honestly suspect that religions glorify suffering because they know their Gods are ineffective so they need a way to justify their Gods' failures by indoctrinating us into thinking suffering is actually good.
Perhaps God is the placebo effect. 💭
What a wonderful person is Elvine.
Glad she’s out of this ancient mythological nonsense.
Great interview Tim
Well done!
Thank you!!
Thank you for your kind words!
Fascinating to hear the points of view of Catholic, Evangelical, and Atheist.
Such a clear communicator too. Elvine reminds me of Tracy Harris, a voice I miss on CZcams.
I miss Tracy Harris so much and still feel disappointed at how the AEx imploded. We lost a treasure on CZcams when Tracy stepped away.
This was SO GREAT! I hope we hear from her again soon. ❤
Agreed!!
I'm so glad you enjoyed the interview! Tim's channel was instrumental in my deconversion so nothing would make me happier than coming back!
It’s interesting to me that so many of us learn more about being humble after leaving the faith that claims you need it to have that trait. Another great episode!
Yes! Very true.
38:46
The statement, "I can't believe I ever thought/did that..." is the truest expression of an exvangelical.
That story of the boy who died was really shocking. A film was made about it. It was called 'We Let Our Son Die' 😢He was a diabetic and they prayed for his healing and then assumed God would come through on that so threw his insulin away. It was an awful story.
Bravo Elvine 👏👏👏👏. Merci pour ton témoignage, tes raisonnements dont je me voyais plusieurs fois! J’ai été élevé Catholique, converti au Témoins de Jéhovah dont j’ai fais partie pendant 33 ans!! 🤦♀️. Je me suis réveillé en 2018…divorcer en 2019…Covid…
C’était un défi pour que je me retrouve en tant que femme, personne qui se valorise, se retrouver sur le chemin du travail & qui pourvoit à mes besoins. Je suis fière de mon cheminement & jamais au plus jamais retournerai à l’endoctrinement & servitude que j’ai subi. Vive la LIBERTÉ sous toutes ses formes! Je ne crois plus en Dieu, ni aux religions. Je me suis donner la permission de faire des recherches pour comprendre le pourquoi de ma conversion, lisant des livres ainsi que des témoignages sur CZcams qui m’ont éclairées. Merci pour votre aide!! ❤🇨🇦
Si vous pensez que vous voudriez un jour envisager un entretien vous-même, n'hésitez pas à me contacter !
Thank you Elvine Andjembe for sharing your story. I hung on EVERY SINGLE word you said!! WOW!!!. And thank you Tim Mills for having this amazing woman on your channel. And as always- You asked her such great questions and you had such great comments & great interesting, informative & helpful things to share. ❤❤
2 hours and 20min! I have seen 2 of your shows, the first was Brandon (Mindshift) and the 2nd was another dude named Tim, an evangelical pastor from tx who wrote a few books..... I forgot his name but they were both fantastic fantastic interviews, discussions, and stories.
I love that you spend so much time listening and discussing instead of trying to stick to some tight 30min or hour making it feel as if too many points were left on the table and rushed points. Love your work man.
Thanks, Destiny! I really appreciate your support and encouragement! --Tim
She is amazing. So many things, so well expressed. One of many good takeaways: It's weird that the power of god doesn't exceed the placebo effect, and the frequency of answered prayers doesn't exceed the rate of random chance and coincidence.
Yes! Fascinating insights!!
It's interesting to me that placebos can sometimes be as effective as medication. I am not religious, but science has not yet gotten to the point where it can explain everything.
Love this interview. Elvine is a great speaker. Two hours went by so quickly, lol.
😅 I wish my students felt that way
@@ElvineBelindaA I bet some of them do.
4 time I listen now!
👍one of your best! Elvine is awesome! She needs to do something with her talents. She is articulate, well spoken, well-researched, understands the damage religion has and will continue to do. We need her strong, clear message to be shared too.
Thank you! Your comment made my day!
Elvine is eloquent and beautiful. Great interviewing. Thank you both.
Agreed! Thank you for your encouragement. --Tim
Thank you 😊
She's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I'm watching again.
At 1:01:00, she describes my life. And it is SO much weight. It's partly why I am single at 42. I, too, was told that I was loud and boisterous because I was outspoken and didn't feel like what I had to say was less important than a guy. I am intelligent and a deep thinker. But I was always told to be more demure. And I always thought "why would God make me with so many gifts, particularly for speaking, teaching, and singing, only to have me shove them down? Isn't that putting my candle under a bushel?" That was too grievous for me to bear. It always felt wrong and so unnatural. And now that I am walking away from the nonsense, I still don't want to be married. I like having the freedom to do what I want when I want. I just hate that I wasted so much of my life in complete and utter oppression. I lost out on so many opportunities that I'll never get back. That sucks. But I won't waste any more time.
As a Southern woman who is a feminist, I couldn't bring myself to "act dumb" to get a husband. I watched other educated southern women put on that act with their husbands. Dishonest game playing that I refused to participate in.
@@voxpopuli348Born and raised in central Texas in the bible belt. It bothered me so much as a youth, but I could never say say anything. There wasn't much room for discussion or asking questions either growing up. That was a surefire way to be reprimanded and shut down quickly paired with the threat of hell for questioning God. I watched women follow their spouses into oblivion. Terrible business and supposed spiritual decisions that left the entire household in shambles, but they couldn't say anything because they were women. Smart young women in college to get their "Mrs." degree was a running joke at Baylor University. Add all of that to the fact that I'm a black woman, and one can understand why I always knew deep down something wasn't right. It's why I opted to push through getting my degrees and focused on working. At least it gave me an answer to give when people asked me about marriage. I'd just tell them I was career-driven and that Paul said it was better not to marry anyway. As I got older, I just started telling folks to get some business to mind and to stay out of mine. 😂
I truly appreciate you sharing this and I completely identify with it. You have made so many good points that I'm not sure where to start... You're a natural teacher, speaker, and singer: THAT'S WHO YOU ARE. And I'm glad you're embracing it, unapologetically. Religion really did a number on us Black women and I'm still personally working to free myself completely from all of that nonsense. I wish I had people like you to talk to at the time 😐
@@voxpopuli348 Funny (not funny), it's the same thing in my culture. When push comes to shove, women are expected to "perform" and act dumb or submissive even when they aren't.
@@ElvineBelindaAThank you so much. If you ever want to connect other than in the comment section, let me know. I'd love to talk with you. You're brilliant. ❤
Great job, Elvine looks like a great friend to have. ❤
Keep thriving! Please consider making condensed excerpts (5 minute) of these great stories.
Or best of edits with multiple speakers.
I’m hoping to use these as tools to help explain to religious friends, why I am curious about their faith.
It's in the works! It will be a while, but it's in the pipeline.
😄 I am totally saving your comment and showing it to my friends; they need to know how lucky they are. 😂
@@ElvineBelindaA lol
I hope they still rib you for your quirks.🤓 You made a big impression on me, I am sure they all feel similar!
❤️
Thank you, Elvine, for sharing your story. Even though we grew up in different places, there is so much we have in common (evangelicals are very similar in Africa and the southern USA). We strong women have to stick together and can’t be kept down 💪💪💪
Tim: love your channel, its such a beacon of light
Thank you so much! I really appreciate your encouragement and support! --Tim
It really is! ❣
Maybe it's the African in me but I think this is one of the best interviews you've done so far. I'm sure I'm gonna watch it again. Elvine is eloquent, smart and absolutely joyous to listen to. Great job both of you. Oh, I'm also adding "make it make sense" to my anti-religion vocabulary. 😀
01:28:00
Elvine says something so obvious that it can take you decades to realize it, namely that the Serpent is the only character in the story who is NOT shady! Both Adam and Eve blame the Serpent rather than themselves. God has untruthfully told the human couple that they will die on the day that they eat the fruit, but nothing of the sort happens, and the Lord apparently forgets everything he'd previously said on the matter. It seems, then, that the Serpent was perfectly correct in what he told the woman. Whatever this tale is trying to tell us is miles away from the tidy little Sunday school parable we all remember.
Thank you! We get so indoctrinated that instead of objectively examining the story, we believe the Sunday school "bad snake" version of the story. And yes, you're right: the way both Adam and Eve shift the blame is quite hilarious.
I often wonder if snakes get a bad rep in these stories because, in many old myths, they represent energies that rise from the depths of the earth. In Abrahamic religions anyway, earth=bad and heaven= good. Which may explain why the environment is in the shape it's in.
she is a FANTASTIC speaker! this was so enjoyable to listen to!
Great interview, great guest. Elvine is a great communicator.
Love this whole conversation! I’ve been scouring CZcams for deconstructions videos, as I am in that exact process at the moment. This is so helpful in my journey and I really enjoyed it, especially coming from a Black woman who understands my perspective a little better.
Hi, Kayla! Thank you for sharing that. If you feel like you are at a spot to consider doing an interview, please feel free to add me on FB and reach out there.
facebook.com/timandjuliemills
Oh wow, can't believe I am just now seeing this reply! Thank you for the offer, I'll be in touch! @@HarmonicAtheist
Wow, she's AWESOME!!! Thank you for another great episode.
Welcome back Elvine,you were born this way.Please make your voice as loud as you can we need this
Yes!!!
I appreciate this, thank you!
Elvine, good luck with your doctorate!! I so enjoyed your logic. I would love to have had you as a student when I was a professor. You are one of those students I was kind of afraid of. I knew that once I gave them an assignment I'd better get out of the way before they ran me over. Keep wise!
😊 Thank you! And yes, to be honest, I would have been that kind of student😅😂
this was one of the best interviews Ive ever seen. you could totally have a great channel of your own Elvine. thankyou
Thanks, and yes, agreed! :)
Thank you!
your welcome, and thankyou
@@ElvineBelindaA Great interview sis. I'm battling with religion right now, My life has been stagnant for about 5 to 6 years thinking it's the end of the world. Thanks for sharing your religious experience.
This is the third time I listen to Elvine! Bravo!
Great interview!
I love this interview and look forward to hearing more from Elvine!
I totally agree with Elvine needing a platform. Love her story and her passion.
well done Elvine
One thing I'll always be grateful to my folks for despite our political differences was their conscious decision not to raise my siblings and I in any specific religion. They wanted us to have the choice that neither of them had growing up. They were raised Catholic. They did send us to church briefly as kids, but I think it had more to do with keeping up appearances than anything else since we were living in the town both sets of grandparents lived in at the time, not to mention a lot of other family. But I also think it was because they wanted us to at least have the experience. One thing they've always been clear on when talking with us as adults was that they wanted us to come to religion or not by our own choice and not anyone else's. They raised us to think for ourselves in other words. All three of us are pretty much agnostic atheists as adults. One thing I do know for sure is that when at age six I told my mom I didn't want to go to church anymore neither she nor my dad made any real issue of it. My mom just asked if I was sure and when I said I was that was it. Now she knows I'm not a believer and that's fine with her because I think she's leaning that way herself these days.
Thank you Elvine for sharing your story and perspective! Wonderful Interview!
This lady is the best guest I've seen so far. Outstanding presentation.
As a teenager, my experience as a "catholic" varies a lot from hers lol. I'm actually encouraged so much to have a "personal relationship with God" in the youth group and church camp my parents send me to. People have told me you can be stuck in purgatory for hundreds of years for one sin, and the saints recognized by the church went straight to heaven because of their very good deeds and repentance for all their sins. It's funny how much things can even vary within the same denomination concerned with so many pedantic rules. My dad has a full catechism of the catholic church book that's larger than the bible itself
Very interesting! To be fair, I was a kid so, it's possible that the theology was tailored based on age and you would be able to tell me more about it. And you are so right about purgatory: it was described to me as this in-between place where you could spend decades, centuries where you would be miserable and people had to pray for you "enough" before you could be allowed into heaven. And yes, saints went to heaven but they were super special and rare people.
The Catholic Church made a lot of money selling faster trips through purgatory. That was one of the things that triggered the Protestant revolution.
Thanks!
Wow, thank you so much!!! I really appreciate your support!!
Can you reach out to me at harmonicatheist@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Brave of you to share your story, thank you.
Elvine does something that I find very important. As she explains, she simultaneously disavows will little simple additions. When this isn't done, it is very easy to experience the questions and explanations as triggering preaching statements. This is turn causes my mind to doubt the entire enterprise of the channel. I fight my way back but at times it becomes very difficult.
She explains things brilliantly. I get a real idea about evangelicalism and Catholicism and how they differ. It makes evangelicalism seem more cultlike than Catholicism even though Catholics have a single leader.
Great interview! Very expressive and incisive And kudos to the moderator for giving the guest the space to speak. The remarks about the role of women were especially moving and insightful.
In the 1950s the Catholic teaching of the Assumption of Mary into heaven was accorded doctrinal status. Although ridiculed by many, the psychiatrist Carl Jung, at the time in the final decade of his life, argued in an essay that the elevation of Mary was profound because it incorporated the necessary feminine principle to the divine pantheon for the Christian religion. He was looking at this from a psychological standpoint. The irony is that in the world of flesh and blood the Catholic Church still does not have women as priests. In fact, the modest attempts of Pope Francis to possibly nudge the Catholic Church in this direction have been met with deep resistance, as have many other of his efforts of church reform.
Jung also had a unique take on the central Christian belief of Christ as a sacrificial offering. He linked this with the practice in antiquity of the king needing to sacrifice a child, often a daughter, in order to propitiate the angry gods. Jung gave the analogy of how the.potter cannot blame the pot for being defective. So God needed to sacrifice his son because of the deformity and inadequacy of his own creation. Jung was very influenced by mythological history and classical literature in his theory of archetypes. Tim, since you are interested in the works of Dennis MacDonald, you should check out Jung in his writings on religion.
I'm only a dozen minutes in so far and it's already been an excellent glimpse into your religious journey.
I'll come back to this interview later 😋
Enjoyed this interview, thank you!
Thank you!
Great interview…fascinating journey
The world's largest wine and cracker enthusiasts club.
Grape juice for some denominations!
Another nice one from Tim. Its nice to see more ethnic diversity. Please try to interview people from other religious backgrounds as well; Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, Voodoo etc.
Congratulations Elvine. Catholicism is practically a quiet (but complex) folk religion in comparison to Evangelical Fundamentalism. Typically a Catholic will just be "fallen away" roughly the equivalent to a Jack Mormon. Anglicans, Episcopalians and Orthodox are also usually pretty much on the quiet side. It would be interesting to see a sociological comparison between these adherents and a "Big Tent" style Fundamentalist adherent group.
I had similar journey. Catholic to evangelical to atheist.
Loved listening to Elvine.
There is so much good content in this interview, but the part that I can't get over (because it made me so happy) is that I have finally found someone else who knows that Delilah did not get Sampson's secret out of him by being a temptress. I cannot understand how anyone can seriously teach that that was the case, and I really can't believe I fell for the wrong version of the story years ago instead of realizing what I was reading with my own two eyes. The whole thing is especially funny because I do not know of any men who find incessant whining and nagging to be "tempting".
How is this girl still single?
I shouted at God when I was doubting. I told him I hated him. Strike me dead I challenged him. Come on! Nothing happened of course. Nothing ever happened when I prayed. It is all a house of cards. The Emperor's new clothes springs to mind.
Another great one!
Thanks, Kevin!
Thank you!
Elaine is a female version of me. LMAO. We're so alike. Experiential knowledge. It's uncanny. Thanks so much for your testimony.
I'm glad you liked it!
Yep, that's reLIEgions for ya!! Separating dividing splintering..
It's fascinating how you are not capitalizing god in your notes. I'm listening to the interview, which is great so far... anyway, I get so depressed sometimes that I allow myself to pray, even though it's a weakness to do so. I know I'm talking to myself, but if I'm a pantheist, then it's OK.
Old habits die hard, I guess.
Do whatever works for you. If prayer feels comforting to you keep doing it. Everyone is different.
There is nothing wrong with someone believing or hoping there is something or someone out there that wants us to succeed, or that we are all connected in some spiritual way. That is so different than being controlled by a fundamentalist belief that one religion is the only truth and everyone who doesn’t believe will be in hell. I think Pantheism is a beautiful concept.
All the Best on your personal journey!
@@marlenemeyer9841 perfectly said!
The psychologist in me would say that rituals do help us maintain a sense of control, predictability, and consistency so, it would absolutely make sense that prayer is comforting for you. I can see how pantheism is a strength. Spirituality is not all bad. I have to admit that in my case, however, prayer is a nightmare. My worst fear is going back to that.
@@ElvineBelindaA Well, it's as if you were traumatized by prayer, so I can see why you'd stay away from it. I was a bit, too, in my own religious upbringing: I do energy healing but I only use the word "prayer" if people don't understand it any other way, because to me prayer means knuckling under to a powerful white guy who is our "lord", our absolute ruler.
What I do in energy healing is just being in touch with the universe and world we're a part of, no religion required, though ritual done honestly can help with that kind of being in touch-- we all have secular rituals, like having a cup of coffee before we start work, or eating cookies in a certain way, and they can satisfy and connect us
A rising star
110%
Great content guys. So cult-like, whatever form it takes. We can all do better. Live your best life and be kind to others 😗
Thank you elvine. Is she on any socials ?
Listening to your shows are relaxing. I find religious shows to be obnoxious.
Can anyone tell me the last who name of the David
that she mentioned that had a terrible scandal recently ?
I don’t remember her talking about a David… but she mentioned Ravi Zacharias and his big scandal that came out after he died… if that helps 🤷🏻♀️
An amazing story, and so many points of the cruelty of the bible clearly made.
I have come to believe that Christians should not have the Old Testament as part of the Bible, it was meant to be a covenant with the Jewish people. Only the New Testament with an emphasis on the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount. And especially the two great commandments. Nothing more.
If the same god is at the center of both old and new then to not study the old testament would give Christians a very incomplete picture of what kind of god they are serving, especially if he is the same yesterday, today and forever!
@Matira269 not worried about that. Besides, like the speaker, I am not interested in a God who condones and encourages rape, murder, slavery, and genocide and is thoroughly misogynistic.
Well that's a problem.
Paul is our earliest and only eyewitness source on any of this. The gospels are fiction written decades or more after Paul's death. They borrow from Paul's letters and Greco Roman literature to build out a backstory for Jesus. Paul tells us explicitly that we know of Jesus from scripture. There were no christians or christian writings in his time. He was a jew, as were the first members of the Jesus cult. When Paul says "scripture" he means jewish scripture, that is, some version of the torah.
Really what christians should have is, assuming hewing as close as possible to the earliest cult is the goal, the OT and Paul's letters.
Unless you want to argue that tradition is important here.
In which case, christians should use the OT, the NT and all of the non-canonical gospels. The non-canonicals are just as much a part of christian tradition as the canonical ones which are just as much a part of the tradition as the OT. And, given that they're all fiction, the non-canonicals are as equally valid as the canonicals.
But then you have to ask, what even is the purpose of the Bible?
If it's a collection of made up stories and letters written and rewritten by a bunch of long dead dudes. If, as you propose, people are free to edit things in and out of it as they choose. Something I and all of the book's ancient authors would agree with. Of what relevance is the Bible to people today? Why even use the thing when you can make up your own story that is more relevant to people alive today?
@rainbowkrampus Paul witnessed nothing of Jesus' life. And in fact of the 13 letters or epistles attributed to him, only 6-7 appear to be authored by him, and the others are of unknown authorship. And yes, much of his thinking is anchored in his Jewish belief system. Considering all of the other writings, gospels, apocrypha, and letters that did not make the final cut by early church fathers, I am perfectly OK with much of Paul being dropped because what he states is flavored with his personal cognitive and educational biases.
@@user-pd5qz2vt2c "Paul witnessed nothing of Jesus' life."
Nobody did, that's the problem. All we've got is Paul claiming to have seen the risen Jesus.
"because what he states is flavored with his personal cognitive and educational biases"
The rest of it isn't?
Whoever wrote the beatitudes and sermon on the mount was definitely demonstrating their cognitive and personal biases.
If that's the metric, you've got to throw out the entire thing.
Which ya know, great. But I'm not sure you're going to convince anybody but atheists on that one. At which point, why even bother?
To pick up on the theme of angelic seduction, In Matthew 22:30 , Jesus said that in the ressurection there will be no msrriage, because people will be like the angels in heaven. If this is so this begs the question, why were angels made in a way that they become horny and yet marriags is not permitted among them? Wasn't it inevitable that they would rape or seduce someone rather than live lives of eternal horniness? Next they go and seduce women and humanity is punished! Does this mean that similarly, ressurected humans will exist as sexual beings, but will not be permitted to marry? That sounds problematic! I bet you men looking forward to heaven did not think of that! 😂😂😂 Seriously, how does one make this design which seems to be at odds with function make sense?
😄 So true!!! We could also expect that resurrected people would try to have sex at some point, right? If the angels didn't care in Genesis, I highly doubt that the resurrected human beings wouldn't try to have sex in heaven with other humans and/or angels😄. Like I said, at some point we would mess this whole thing up again and be back to square one.
Great Rising Queen ❤️
Trump made me lose my faith too!
My bank account made me lose faith in the current administration.
@@athena3865 you must be giving it to Trump because my bank account has doubled
😂 It's weird, but I have to thank him for it though
Trump not even religious. He played all of those people. He believes in the metaphysics of “God” and using his subconscious mind to get what he want in life. What’s crazy is Christianity will condemn such practices or call him evil.
Little donation with a msg is sent. I also msg u on msgn as trail but no reply... just about to listen to this at work
Thank you so very much, Aleksandra! I really appreciate your support. --Tim
@@HarmonicAtheist of course i am half way thru it and on lunch now i like this woman. And is fascinating the God Placebo ans Miracles subject
What is speaking in tongues? Is it an actual language? Is it babbling?
It’s not an actual language. The scientific term is “glossolalia.” Check it out.
@@Pallasathena-hv4kp thanks
Religion is crowd control not as divine stupidity.
Great dialogue, glad she left religion, but l fear feminism is slowly becoming her new religion, & this is very apparent in her feelings towards submission to a man. Generally, what l find contradictory regarding feminist attitudes towards submission in relationships is they will willingly submit to the police & laws in their countries, their bosses at their jobs, the leadership and authority of presidents, therapists etc... but once it comes to submitting to the leadership of a man they love and chose suddenly it's an issue?
No country has two presidents for a reason; someone has to have the authority to make the final decision for the country/family especially when a consensus cannot be reached; otherwise no decisions will be made. It's about optimising function and keeping structure. #ChestertonsFence states if you take away something with a function (in this case submission from our family & country structures) you need something better to replace it with. This is where the feminist anti submission philosophy falls apart because they don't have a better functioning replacement. If noone has the final say in a relationship, how is a decision made when both parties don't agree? With no leader a power struggle becomes inevitable because both sides won't submit and then the house divided never stands long. There are no perfect systems, all choices have trade-offs.
I was giving a brief overview in the video so I didn't get to delve into a few of those points in more detail, but your comment shows you make a lot of erroneous assumptions about me, feminism, and sociopolitical behavior.
First, feminism is simply the belief that men and women are equal, and (in my case) it is paired with gender equality activism so no, it is not a religion, not a "new" belief for me, but a principle and a movement. It is also not a monolithic, so your definition does not apply to everyone, certainly not to me.
Second, conformity, compliance, and obedience are human behaviors that help us survive and reproduce because they help us adjust to life in society and live in harmony with others. You need to distinguish between personal choices and broader structural issues. Submitting to authorities like police, bosses, or therapists means complying with systems designed to maintain order or provide professional help. Those are positions that were given specific authority based on societal agreement and, as an activist, I believe if they ever abuse their given authority, it is moral to disobey unjust rules.
You also seem to work from the belief that every single society involved women submitting to the leadership of their men or that every single romantic relationship must involve hierarchy where one dominates over another. That is not true. You can look into matriarchal tribes or same-sex relationships and you’ll quickly realize that it is possible to be egalitarian. And even if one partner had to submit to other, then using sex as a way to decide who leads the relationship is ridiculously flawed approach.
Now, imagine for a second if a non-Black person wrote your exact comment referring to Black people and asking Black people to submit because not all races can coexist equally on planet earth, one has to submit to another and black people have to be the dominated and there are no perfect systems, would you be okay with that?
I explained some of the misogynistic themes that emerge in the bible.
Your opinion of men and women "not being equal" is just your opinion. I could also reply that men and women are different but equal.
Submitting to authorities’ figures is also different from submitting within the context of a relationship. I do not submit to my friends; I do not believe romantic PARTNERSHIPS should involve anyone submitting to the other. Egalitarian romantic relationships can and do exist (see previous comment).
That being said, as a feminist, I believe people are allowed to do whatever they want in their relationships and can chose to submit to their partners, however, it should not be imposed on everyone else. Let those who think they need someone else to lead their lives implement a hierarchy within the privacy of their relationship but they should not impose their relationship preference on others.
As for Trump, you need to have a basic understanding of the racist history of Christianity in the US to be able to assess how the Trump regime revealed the strong ties of US Christianity to White Supremacy.
I don’t go into details but I mean, the KKK is a Christian organization. The evangelical support for Trump and the clear disdain and even opposition to the Black Lives Matter movement from people who profess to exhibit the pure, enduring, universal, and unconditional love of god was very telling.
Trump has everything to do with the Christian faith: White Evangelical Christians were his biggest supporters. Who do you think elected him? Many refused to accept that Trump lost in 2020 and believed so-called prophecies that god had chosen him and would give him a second term. Trump was idolized, equated to "King Cyrus", and seen as God's chosen despite his many, MANY flaws. Scratch under the Qanon surface and you’ll find the evangelical church. They completely ignored racism and some preachers even admonished those who spoke out about race issues and called BLM a "demonic" movement.
Ever consider that leadership is a thing that can be passed from hand to hand? Like, say a woman was a CFO, should her husband who is, say, a history professor be the one to manage the finances? And if that woman is trying to learn to paint, she wouldn't be the leader because she has no experience or knowledge in it, her art teacher would be the leader.
Rigid hierarchies such as you describe work well only in areas of emergency, such as the military and EMTs. I think we can do better than to live in a state of constant emergency.
The One Leader idea is the idea of dictatorship. It's also the idea of master-slave. Look where that kind of leadership has gotten the world, and ask yourself: is this really the best way?
Jesus wasn't God nor did he claim to be.
Not one time. They all continued to make a whole religious belief around worshipping Jesus Christ or calling him God.
Wow. This one will get several re-listens! What a journey and thank you for sharing how you did it all, Elvine. Tim (Morpheus 😊), your interviews are all perfect - honestly so grateful for your efforts to share these experiences/journies with the world. Thank you for all you're doing. And 1000 likes to your intelligent, funny, and 💯 gorgeous - *inside* and out - guest! If you do have a channel it could be called, "Stop making sense" - you said many times (facetiously, obviously ,"make it make sense" - and since we can't, your channel could echo that famous talking heads album. 🎵🎶🎼🎹🎷🪕🎸🎶 Lol. 💜🩵🤍🤎🖤🩶💙💚💛🧡🩷
P.s. loved the political aspect. We concentrate our power into our elected officials. Politics is power. And when we use our vote to elect lawmakers who pass laws that protect us and our planet, we all win. Stop electing politicians who only want to make rich people richer.
Agreed! Elvine is a wonderful person and a great communicator.