I've had a lot of fun with the SoC missions, with a huge caveat: they work well at extremely small points and small boards (like for escalation leagues) or where both players know exactly what they're getting into and actively agree to run SoC. In my experience, the lack of time to develop matters much, much less than how the turn count exacerbates differences in army speed. If both players have the same rough army speed, it's fine so long as they're not extremely slow. If one side is jump pack or infiltrate heavy and the other army isn't, the fast army wins virtually every single time. The other army doesn't even need to be slow - it just needs to not be fast enough to counter-capture almost every single objective. I've watched an all-infantry Raven Guard army absolutely wipe the floor with pretty much everyone because there really just isn't anything you can do when your opponent starts the game controlling every single objective and you only have four total turns to do something about it. If both armies are reasonably mechanized and not just spamming scout and infiltrate, they seem to work pretty well. That being said, this is absolutely unacceptable for "core" missions. I do like that they offer a huge variety of weird and wonderful missions across the books, but every single core mission should work with a completely braindead setup - I have a box of dudes, you have a box of dudes, let's roll a mission and a deployment and have some fun. The SoC missions are so heavily slanted towards fast armies and first turn advantage that they're almost unplayable under those conditions. They really need to either be five turns or have a caveat in their introduction that says that they're an alternate way to play that may require different lists and strategies.
Can confirm my boss did this like twice because he didn't want to waste time and money, dudes fine though it just stung a bit but was mostly fine no infection or anything.
@@thunderwarrior2459 I wouldn't recommend it, it's definitely not Circle Approved Medical Treatment, but when you have two halves of a tooth grinding around in your jaw and you're stuck with it for a few days, you may as well pull some out to ease the irritation. I quickly read up how it's done, decided that some pliers and saline flushing the hole would be appropriate. Apparently, I did a good job and the dentist was happy to pull out the other half and throw a suture in there.
Plastic heresy exists in part to prompt additional resin sales. Selling out of resin charonites is the goal of selling the plastic range. Plastics are intended to get more people buying resin, not less - having only part of the army you want in plastic is the whole point
@rogaldorn8519 if you operate a sub unit of a business, like SDS, your commercial successes are relative to your current scale. HH2 and the plastic remasters wouldn't exist if the resin designs were considered unsuccessful. Like xenos flyers for epic scale, they would simply be discontinued. Getting big midwit energy from your comment.
Glad to hear you’re feeling better! Wouldn’t mind having the Beta-Garmon review if convenience allows. Would be great to something for reference. Excited to hear more about this ‘Build. Paint. Play. Initiative’, too.
According to the actual rule you put on screen the “take a titan as your army” thing is for one battle in a campaign if you use that strategem. I don’t think you’ll have to worry about it much.
I like SOC missions but absolutely agree that reserves need an adjustment in 4 turn missions. I recently had a match running pale hunters and failed both reserve rolls. By the time the FA happened, exactly as you said I had no chance to remotely score even though the rest of the board was well balanced. Something like the reserve roll on turn 3 should be a 2+ or something.
I think i replied to you on the fb post you mentioned. Youve made some good points and i agree in general. For me wjat i like from the SoC missions are the objectives and tyrn based capture points + secondary ones over kill points or only score obj at games end. If they made 6 turn missions with decent obj and scoring that would be sweet.
Honestly, most of the issues you listed about low point titan games is how I kind of feel about knight armies as well. They're not exactly good, but just by existing they limit other players' options and warp the gaming experience for everyone else. I'd be interested to hear how you rate knights in comparison to your comments on titans.
Notes: Will the blood slaughter be fury of the new fury of the ancients? The 4 turn missions as a part of that campaign system is not bad- but now it will be split into 3 books…. Likelihood of those missions printed again is highs…. That is a Campaign Strat… not normal play. Feels rude however. 4 Turn Missions have had a secondary effect with army composition, and with cheaper line units and rhinos- I have recently become a fan. It really puts a cap on your all elite army killing abilities. I wish it would have rules patches… the AdMech really had poorly balanced rules, no brutal and they feel un-playtested. Knights are really brutalized…. Praying this book is not written by Chat GPT. (I have some questions regarding Recent Products)
I've used a warhound a few times in a 3k point for 30k game and it seems pretty manageable for my opponent to handle and its not blowing loads of units away. I think this is the only viable titan as i can guess the reaver will just have greater output
One reaver is two warhounds in points ,and the reaver dies well enough for it to not really matter ,it just scares people who ain't ever played against it that's all
Any new Dark Mechanicum? Because the lore and teases in the original Black Books were really fucking awesome and GW should know it's like a Calth book without Word Bearer rules/models present. EDIT: They should aim higher, all the money they make shouldn't just be filling out the range...we should have a new faction because they had time to spit out Leagues and existing Mechanicum models and some HQ's give them ideas. Sell people a Mars book with both factions on Mars, warlord traits and deamon engines are not on the same level as 'hey here's some actual DM units'
To be honest, I would be interested in hearing what you thought of the Beta book it would add more for folks to weight any purchasing decisions on even if its mostly negative. While no one ever entirely agrees pretty sure you've established a reputation for being honest which plenty of folks respect. Of course if you don't feel its a good option/product of your work and decide not to publish that makes sense as well. Do take care of yourself.
@@sonsofisstvan1675 plastic typhons and cerberus before plastic assault squads was also strange. Plastic mech before plastic breachers is strange. A warhound before a fellblade is definitely a possibility
@@sonsofisstvan1675 Nah. Seems on par with GW. Also funny that you brough up the super heavies as if a plastic titan is on the horison it would be coming BEFORE certain Legions get their praetors! Which is even MORE on par with GW!
I was a bit interested when I first saw this but now I know it’s just like that daemon Fulgrim book where it’s free PDFs stuck into a book it’s obviously a waste of money.
I’m holding out hope that the Martian civil war book comes with some new interesting units. If it’s just a vehicle to sell old models and titans (which, as you rightfully said, are so stupid to bring to a game although I can see where warhound might not be so bad).
was really hoping that there would be some cool stuff in this book. Dont know why I get my hopes up any more. Its gonna be even more soul crushing to see people praise and gush over this release when it comes out, but to each their own I guess
Do we know theres no “cool stuff”? All they’ve said so far is they are including the Daemon engines from the Exemplary battles PDF, the campaign system from the Cthonia book with some new campaign stratagems and some new missions
@@TeAXIIIT13 it's the way they carefully avoid mentioning "...and 14 brand new units, 7 never-before-seen missions, and a whole-new set of rules for playing with entire Titan maniples!" or whatever. Like, if there's anything new, wouldn't they want to say so, to encourage people to buy the book? Remains to be seen of course, but trust in GW is low at this point.
@@BittermanAndy i agree in the low trust. The end of the article does say more information is coming, so it could be a “dont talk about everything yet so we can farm engagement” type of situation like the beta garmon book
@@TeAXIIIT13 yeah I’m just worried more about how much recycled content is already here. I bought cthonia and was thoroughly disappointed in the writing, so I don’t have too high hopes for that either
I think I will wait a few months to pick this one up if I pick it up at all. The rumors of Heresy 2.5 give me pause. I am not picking up a book that has little value that will have absolutely no value as son as the next edition is out if that edition is releasing any time in the next 8 months.
i think GW "learned" that they should not release 2 "big" systems at once after eachother like the epic and warhammer old world, however to keep radio silence on every game system for several months after the announcment of new AoS to increase the hype and focus only on that (also we had femstodes incident which i think they wanna subtly forget which is why they aint releasing stuff until people forget about it) is not the best strategy keep the fans within the system. i bet this was the thought process behind these few months
the reason I am looking forward to this is because we might finally find out why during 10 years of Heresy Dorn doesn't send astartes to secure Mars for the loyalists!
I find it unlikely that the modern GW writers will come up with a better explanation than what came before: taking Mars would have been too damaging even for the victor, so they blockaded it and left it alone. I can't see the current generation of writers pulling something amazing out of nowhere.
Ooh are we dunking on the Siege of Cthonia missions? Fuck those missions. That GW insists on using them for their official events is both bullshit (a special book you probably don't own has the missions for a 'casual' tournament? Okay...) but it shows that the people organising them don't play Heresy, because if they did they wouldn't use them.
I was definitely one of them people who got suckered into buying the solor box set, I always wanted an army of them. Put the first model together then sold them, they were without a doubt some of the worst models I've ever put together
I'm building that box now (using them for 40k Guardsmen and possibly with raven guard for 30k) they are such a terrible hassle to assemble I've been doing two a day...
So this book, for me at least as someone who wants to get into Heresy as well as back into 40k after a prolonged hiatus for personal reasons, is basically a smidge of hope that GW might (unlikely but whatevs) be planning to release some plastic Mechanicum and (this is the part I believe is a "well, that's never happening") possibly if it garners enough interest, a proper Dark Mech army for 40k, as in "Hey 30k players! If you have a Mechanicum army, here's your rules for 40k" type of swathe. Will it happen? Probably not. But hey, at least the Martian Civil War is getting some love.
Just make the games six turns its up to the players to do what we want with the frame work gw has given us ,if you limit yourself to just playing as they suggest you play then these missions will suck definitely, i say mess with them until your having the fun you want with these missions, i await the attacks .....
As an enjoyer of the once in a blue moon game in which someone or everyone shows up with big dumb barely usable units I have to question why even a second more wasn’t spent on actually writing some fun scenarios or extra rules specifically for some insanely high points limit game for titans to run around in. It’s a subculture in the community of the kind of weirdos that want 10k+ games where entire 50 man squads die at a time and it takes an hour for a single turn to happen while the lads throw buckets worth of dice per weapon.
not shocked really. Anyone bringing a warlord titan to small game is a dick. They need to sell them and big games aren't popular. As for the missions rinse repeat Cthonia
Wait, people are playing the 4-turn missions? They're such an obviously terrible idea that our gaming group has completely ignored them, sticking to the 6-turn missions in the rulebook. (...when we play, that is. It's just so hard to get up for playing 2nd Ed, as it's so very bad. But inertia and habit makes it hard to convince the whole group to go back to 1st Ed too).
titans are fine to me , if you cant get one ... well thats on you ... , if you run out and buy the new META can i say "pls dont use that " no , you learn to deal with it , if you buy it and they made rules well its fair game
It's not that I can't get one, it's that it's not fun for the majority of people playing against it. If you have someone who's down to fight it, then you can do a handshake agreement and do that. You don't need the company to do it.
@@TheOuterCircletitans are certainly the most efficient LOW but it's still worse than equivalent points of normal units. If your list can't deal with a warlord it's a shit list. The old Leviathan FOC should be a normal part of the game. And I'll die on that hill.
@@sagacity1071 if your 3k can't deal with dreads this far into 2.0 then that's a you issue. As much as I want to do away with the useless low limit at 3k this titan update is specifically for campaigns.
@spartan825 stop making things personal dude... ofcourse you can build an army to deal with dreads... it's the principle of a unit type warping the game.
I've had a lot of fun with the SoC missions, with a huge caveat: they work well at extremely small points and small boards (like for escalation leagues) or where both players know exactly what they're getting into and actively agree to run SoC. In my experience, the lack of time to develop matters much, much less than how the turn count exacerbates differences in army speed. If both players have the same rough army speed, it's fine so long as they're not extremely slow. If one side is jump pack or infiltrate heavy and the other army isn't, the fast army wins virtually every single time. The other army doesn't even need to be slow - it just needs to not be fast enough to counter-capture almost every single objective. I've watched an all-infantry Raven Guard army absolutely wipe the floor with pretty much everyone because there really just isn't anything you can do when your opponent starts the game controlling every single objective and you only have four total turns to do something about it. If both armies are reasonably mechanized and not just spamming scout and infiltrate, they seem to work pretty well.
That being said, this is absolutely unacceptable for "core" missions. I do like that they offer a huge variety of weird and wonderful missions across the books, but every single core mission should work with a completely braindead setup - I have a box of dudes, you have a box of dudes, let's roll a mission and a deployment and have some fun. The SoC missions are so heavily slanted towards fast armies and first turn advantage that they're almost unplayable under those conditions. They really need to either be five turns or have a caveat in their introduction that says that they're an alternate way to play that may require different lists and strategies.
I'd say that's an incredibly accurate summary.
While I would agree with you…
casually splits tooth and yanks it out with a pair if pliers, Typical Australian Monday.
As a dentist fucking with your teeth is a bad idea you can expose nerve endings which = the pain of a thousand suns
Can confirm my boss did this like twice because he didn't want to waste time and money, dudes fine though it just stung a bit but was mostly fine no infection or anything.
@@friendlyneighbourhoodsunwheel yeah normally it’s fine but if you fuck it up your not gonna have a good time mmm yeah mmm
@@thunderwarrior2459 I wouldn't recommend it, it's definitely not Circle Approved Medical Treatment, but when you have two halves of a tooth grinding around in your jaw and you're stuck with it for a few days, you may as well pull some out to ease the irritation. I quickly read up how it's done, decided that some pliers and saline flushing the hole would be appropriate. Apparently, I did a good job and the dentist was happy to pull out the other half and throw a suture in there.
@@TheOuterCircle excellent ! I’ve seen some plonkers tie it with string and a door …
I think titans are fine in massive 10k+ games, but I'm walking out if someone drops a titan in a 2k game
only warhounds are legal in 3kpt games, and they're something you can deal with, and even take down with a primarch or with your own massive guns
Plastic heresy exists in part to prompt additional resin sales. Selling out of resin charonites is the goal of selling the plastic range. Plastics are intended to get more people buying resin, not less - having only part of the army you want in plastic is the whole point
You actually think GW make meaningful money off of resin lines? 😂😂😂
@rogaldorn8519 if you operate a sub unit of a business, like SDS, your commercial successes are relative to your current scale. HH2 and the plastic remasters wouldn't exist if the resin designs were considered unsuccessful. Like xenos flyers for epic scale, they would simply be discontinued. Getting big midwit energy from your comment.
Glad to hear you’re feeling better!
Wouldn’t mind having the Beta-Garmon review if convenience allows. Would be great to something for reference.
Excited to hear more about this ‘Build. Paint. Play. Initiative’, too.
Check out a video Macca did with northern exile last week, it explains it well
@@chadh0nkleton774 Thanks for the tip!
It looks like an amazing book. I mean it has a picture on the front and silver writing on it !!!
According to the actual rule you put on screen the “take a titan as your army” thing is for one battle in a campaign if you use that strategem. I don’t think you’ll have to worry about it much.
I like four turns. Games finish so quickly, its great.
I like SOC missions but absolutely agree that reserves need an adjustment in 4 turn missions. I recently had a match running pale hunters and failed both reserve rolls. By the time the FA happened, exactly as you said I had no chance to remotely score even though the rest of the board was well balanced. Something like the reserve roll on turn 3 should be a 2+ or something.
Ron, from Parks and Recreation! :)
Outer circle merch? It's about time...
I think i replied to you on the fb post you mentioned.
Youve made some good points and i agree in general.
For me wjat i like from the SoC missions are the objectives and tyrn based capture points + secondary ones over kill points or only score obj at games end.
If they made 6 turn missions with decent obj and scoring that would be sweet.
Honestly, most of the issues you listed about low point titan games is how I kind of feel about knight armies as well. They're not exactly good, but just by existing they limit other players' options and warp the gaming experience for everyone else.
I'd be interested to hear how you rate knights in comparison to your comments on titans.
Notes:
Will the blood slaughter be fury of the new fury of the ancients?
The 4 turn missions as a part of that campaign system is not bad- but now it will be split into 3 books….
Likelihood of those missions printed again is highs….
That is a Campaign Strat… not normal play. Feels rude however.
4 Turn Missions have had a secondary effect with army composition, and with cheaper line units and rhinos- I have recently become a fan. It really puts a cap on your all elite army killing abilities.
I wish it would have rules patches… the AdMech really had poorly balanced rules, no brutal and they feel un-playtested. Knights are really brutalized….
Praying this book is not written by Chat GPT. (I have some questions regarding Recent Products)
NGL i forgot these models were coming out...
I've used a warhound a few times in a 3k point for 30k game and it seems pretty manageable for my opponent to handle and its not blowing loads of units away. I think this is the only viable titan as i can guess the reaver will just have greater output
One reaver is two warhounds in points ,and the reaver dies well enough for it to not really matter ,it just scares people who ain't ever played against it that's all
Would love to see unit by unit analysis from you on the new books.
How would one accquire a build paint play medallion? Do you have to play 2.0?
Any new Dark Mechanicum?
Because the lore and teases in the original Black Books were really fucking awesome and GW should know it's like a Calth book without Word Bearer rules/models present. EDIT: They should aim higher, all the money they make shouldn't just be filling out the range...we should have a new faction because they had time to spit out Leagues and existing Mechanicum models and some HQ's give them ideas. Sell people a Mars book with both factions on Mars, warlord traits and deamon engines are not on the same level as 'hey here's some actual DM units'
To be honest, I would be interested in hearing what you thought of the Beta book it would add more for folks to weight any purchasing decisions on even if its mostly negative. While no one ever entirely agrees pretty sure you've established a reputation for being honest which plenty of folks respect. Of course if you don't feel its a good option/product of your work and decide not to publish that makes sense as well.
Do take care of yourself.
I'd be aiming at being able to earn the right to buy one. Also splitting a tooth is not a fun thing to have happen, sorry to hear about that
People seem to think were going to see a plastic titan announced at some point soon.
A warhound is certainly possible. Ideally lucius pattern.
But I seriously doubt it.
Plastic titan before plastic legion super heavy tanks seems strange
@@sonsofisstvan1675 plastic typhons and cerberus before plastic assault squads was also strange. Plastic mech before plastic breachers is strange. A warhound before a fellblade is definitely a possibility
@@sonsofisstvan1675
Nah. Seems on par with GW.
Also funny that you brough up the super heavies as if a plastic titan is on the horison it would be coming BEFORE certain Legions get their praetors! Which is even MORE on par with GW!
@@sonsofisstvan1675before plastic fucking melee weapons...
I was a bit interested when I first saw this but now I know it’s just like that daemon Fulgrim book where it’s free PDFs stuck into a book it’s obviously a waste of money.
I’m holding out hope that the Martian civil war book comes with some new interesting units. If it’s just a vehicle to sell old models and titans (which, as you rightfully said, are so stupid to bring to a game although I can see where warhound might not be so bad).
was really hoping that there would be some cool stuff in this book. Dont know why I get my hopes up any more. Its gonna be even more soul crushing to see people praise and gush over this release when it comes out, but to each their own I guess
Do we know theres no “cool stuff”?
All they’ve said so far is they are including the Daemon engines from the Exemplary battles PDF, the campaign system from the Cthonia book with some new campaign stratagems and some new missions
@@TeAXIIIT13 it's the way they carefully avoid mentioning "...and 14 brand new units, 7 never-before-seen missions, and a whole-new set of rules for playing with entire Titan maniples!" or whatever. Like, if there's anything new, wouldn't they want to say so, to encourage people to buy the book?
Remains to be seen of course, but trust in GW is low at this point.
@@BittermanAndy i agree in the low trust.
The end of the article does say more information is coming, so it could be a “dont talk about everything yet so we can farm engagement” type of situation like the beta garmon book
@@TeAXIIIT13 yeah I’m just worried more about how much recycled content is already here. I bought cthonia and was thoroughly disappointed in the writing, so I don’t have too high hopes for that either
I think I will wait a few months to pick this one up if I pick it up at all. The rumors of Heresy 2.5 give me pause. I am not picking up a book that has little value that will have absolutely no value as son as the next edition is out if that edition is releasing any time in the next 8 months.
i think GW "learned" that they should not release 2 "big" systems at once after eachother like the epic and warhammer old world, however to keep radio silence on every game system for several months after the announcment of new AoS to increase the hype and focus only on that (also we had femstodes incident which i think they wanna subtly forget which is why they aint releasing stuff until people forget about it) is not the best strategy keep the fans within the system. i bet this was the thought process behind these few months
Too little, too late, GW.
the reason I am looking forward to this is because we might finally find out why during 10 years of Heresy Dorn doesn't send astartes to secure Mars for the loyalists!
I find it unlikely that the modern GW writers will come up with a better explanation than what came before: taking Mars would have been too damaging even for the victor, so they blockaded it and left it alone. I can't see the current generation of writers pulling something amazing out of nowhere.
still waiting for the damn melee sprue. At this point, pretty sure it will be disappointing.
Ooh are we dunking on the Siege of Cthonia missions?
Fuck those missions.
That GW insists on using them for their official events is both bullshit (a special book you probably don't own has the missions for a 'casual' tournament? Okay...) but it shows that the people organising them don't play Heresy, because if they did they wouldn't use them.
I was definitely one of them people who got suckered into buying the solor box set, I always wanted an army of them. Put the first model together then sold them, they were without a doubt some of the worst models I've ever put together
I'm building that box now (using them for 40k Guardsmen and possibly with raven guard for 30k) they are such a terrible hassle to assemble I've been doing two a day...
So this book, for me at least as someone who wants to get into Heresy as well as back into 40k after a prolonged hiatus for personal reasons, is basically a smidge of hope that GW might (unlikely but whatevs) be planning to release some plastic Mechanicum and (this is the part I believe is a "well, that's never happening") possibly if it garners enough interest, a proper Dark Mech army for 40k, as in "Hey 30k players! If you have a Mechanicum army, here's your rules for 40k" type of swathe. Will it happen? Probably not. But hey, at least the Martian Civil War is getting some love.
They already announced a plastic mechanicum line a month or so ago.
@@colinbielat8558 shows I've been out of the loop for a hot and heavy. Good Shit
Just make the games six turns its up to the players to do what we want with the frame work gw has given us ,if you limit yourself to just playing as they suggest you play then these missions will suck definitely, i say mess with them until your having the fun you want with these missions, i await the attacks .....
As an enjoyer of the once in a blue moon game in which someone or everyone shows up with big dumb barely usable units I have to question why even a second more wasn’t spent on actually writing some fun scenarios or extra rules specifically for some insanely high points limit game for titans to run around in.
It’s a subculture in the community of the kind of weirdos that want 10k+ games where entire 50 man squads die at a time and it takes an hour for a single turn to happen while the lads throw buckets worth of dice per weapon.
I feel attacked
not shocked really. Anyone bringing a warlord titan to small game is a dick. They need to sell them and big games aren't popular. As for the missions rinse repeat Cthonia
Wait, people are playing the 4-turn missions? They're such an obviously terrible idea that our gaming group has completely ignored them, sticking to the 6-turn missions in the rulebook.
(...when we play, that is. It's just so hard to get up for playing 2nd Ed, as it's so very bad. But inertia and habit makes it hard to convince the whole group to go back to 1st Ed too).
titans are fine to me , if you cant get one ... well thats on you ... , if you run out and buy the new META can i say "pls dont use that " no , you learn to deal with it , if you buy it and they made rules well its fair game
It's not that I can't get one, it's that it's not fun for the majority of people playing against it. If you have someone who's down to fight it, then you can do a handshake agreement and do that. You don't need the company to do it.
@@TheOuterCircletitans are certainly the most efficient LOW but it's still worse than equivalent points of normal units. If your list can't deal with a warlord it's a shit list.
The old Leviathan FOC should be a normal part of the game. And I'll die on that hill.
A lot of armies can't deal with dreads.... titans are worse.
@@sagacity1071 if your 3k can't deal with dreads this far into 2.0 then that's a you issue.
As much as I want to do away with the useless low limit at 3k this titan update is specifically for campaigns.
@spartan825 stop making things personal dude... ofcourse you can build an army to deal with dreads... it's the principle of a unit type warping the game.