when a ‘bad’ defender wins NHL defensemen of the year.
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2023
- #nhl #hockey #sanjosesharks
Erik Karlsson put up one of the most historic seasons we've seen from an NHL defensemen in years. 101 Points in 82 games was enough for him to win the Norris Trophy... but with a -26 stat line, it has raised debate on whether or not he should've won this trophy. In this video, we breakdown why Erik Karlsson is one of the most unique defenceman in the NHL.
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101 points for a defenseman is mind blowing. He deserves some kind of award for that.
why
But not the norris.
We need a DEFENSIVE Defenseman award. There are defensemen who get like 16 points and are epic. Heck one of my favorite players ever was Jason Smith. He'd have won the DD award. So lets get a Bobby Orr award for offensive D-men already.
Alec Martinez was really effective this year and he falls into that category ..
The Slavin Award
That would be the Norris actually, we need a 4th forward award for players that can score points but won't play a 200 foot game and usually are way under par in the plus minus category, can be called the subban/karlsson award
@@brandonerick Yep. Most blocked shots by far.
For me it was Dan Hamhuis. Totally agree
If you look at the advanced analytics. Erik Karlsson had one of his best seasons ever defensively. The Sharks goal differential was a -90, his plus minus was -26. Which is less than 1/3rd of the teams GF/GA differential. Karlsson played over 25 minutes every game and was the Sharks best player by far.
remove the emptynetters against and he is pretty much 0 plus/minus
you are out of your mind
That is a ridiculous take, it means he was on for 127 goals against or 1.5 goals a game. Hard to win games when you're top D man is on for so many goals against
New trophy idea:
Nick Lidstrom Trophy: Awarded to the defenseman who shows exceptional skill in defensive ability
There should be this and the Bobby Orr trophy from another comment, it would make it so others won't complain about an all offense defenseman winning the norris
LIdstrom was great offensively too though, so you need to pick another dman,
@@rebeltvr6046 yeah Lidstrom was literally just the best dman, period.
@@KamekoTsuruga Yup, he was amazing in every zone.
the "Adam Foote Award" has a ring to it.
it just shows there needs to be 2 awards for d men
1 for best offensive defenseman
1 for best defensive defensman
forwards have the art ross and the selke, why cant d men have the same
Goalies also have the Jennings and Vezina trophy too, it only makes sense dmen get a 2nd trophy
Would any of those trophies have any merit?
Like if a player won the defensive trophy 3 times. Would that make them a hall of famer?
@@AlexBigShidand forwards have the selke+art ross+Maurice Richard
@@AlexBigShid Yeah, maybe even a 3rd for the best 2-way dman, best offense, best defense, best 2-way seems pretty good to me
Maybe an award for most points from the defenseman's position and give the Norris to an actually good defender
Reminds me that Roman Josi has been robbed of this award multiple times due to things like this
Josi must have said screw it I'll just lead the league in points, Can't snub me now 😂
@@Zaghzackio except when he actually did lead the NHL in defensive scoring, he didn't win the award. Cale Makar did.
To be fair -26 is only 30% of SJS’s -87 this season.
This while playing 25 mins on average for an approximately 40% of game time played is not that bad.
Add to that the fact that SJS goaltending was terrible.
-26 doesn’t say that much then.
give me a break
To be fair to Karlsson he had one of the worst goalies and overall teams around, if you put him on a team like Boston with ullmark in net, and actually decent players around him, he would definitely have a positive plus minus. While some goals against were obviously his fault most weren’t, so I don’t think you can really look at plus minus when talking about him
+/- is much more a team stat than an individual one. Everyone has shit +/- stats on a losing team, you can't avoid that.
He stunk with Burns.. EK is not a defenceman.
@@FC-tq1yj Sharks has stunk for ages, they just reek a little less this year without Burns.
He wouldn’t crack 100 points in Boston though
I agree, he is also on the ice a lot more, so there is plenty of time for him to make a mistake. Craig Anderson said in a pod cast that erik was his favorite defenseman in front of him, he may cause 2 chances against but more often than not he gives you 6 scoring chances for those 2.
Kinda messed up that we have a best defensive forward award but not a best defensive defenceman award.
+/- is like the worst stat to use to argue against him winning the Norris lmao
Ya no kidding, can’t believe this is even a conversation that is still happening. That sharks gave up 21 empty net goals this season. Karlsson takes a -1 for each of those alone. +\- is a team stat ffs
How about these much better arguments:
Even Strength TOI - 1st Team ES GA - 32nd
PP TOI - 2nd Team Short Handed GA - 30th
SH TOI - 18th Team PK% - 8th
Funny how it’s supposedly awarded to the best defenseman, yet it seems to go to whoever scores the most points and has seemingly very little to do with actual defense.
They shouldve hand it to Bergeron 😂
we could see it go to a defensively minded player if they were truly a shutdown d-man. there aren't any in the league right now. the most valuable asset for teams is a player who can quarterback a PP and facilitate breakouts.
@@jeffe2267Jonas Brodin
+/- is an awful stat to begin with, to many factors play in that can't be fully controlled by the player itself. Put Karlsson on another team and that stat would change way more than any other stat. He deserves this one and even more so because of the poor +/- stat as despite it he put up an historic season in points.
That doesn't mean defensive players shouldn't get another reward to win. They're pretty forgotten at the award ceremony in general but the best of them contribute as much to the team as a good goal scorer.
+/- is very relevant stat, it’s a good indicator that player is on ice for a shitload of goals, especially a defenceman with 100+ points. Erik Karlsson had league leading 126 ESG (49% of total against sharks) against and league leading 11 SHG against (85% of total against sharks). He also had NHL defencemen leading 100+ giveaways (difference -20). Those stats prove also why he wasn’t part of PK unit. With his games played and ice time, he had lowest amount of blocked shots among sharks main defencemen. It’s literally a joke, that best all around defenceman award went to player with worst defensive stats in the league. He should have been moved to winger position years ago
@@RealmOFOxidianno it’s not a relevant stat, how can you think that? If he was on even the 18th place team he’s probably in the plus. Karlssons 3 best teammates were Meier, Hert, and Couture. Couture is like 33 and past his prime, he should absolutely not the 3rd best player after Meier is traded. Could you name a defend man on that Sharks team not named Karlsson or Vlasic? Most likely no because they’re all either young or filled by 25+ y/o’s with >100 GP. The sharks goalies were trash(ignoring adin hill, who still sucked there btw),defense was trash, the offence was also trash, their second line was a 4th line on any team that finished above bottom 10. Bad teams find ways to lose,THEY LITERALLY HAD THE LEAST WINS THIS YEAR. Less than Anaheim, less than Chicago. Karlsson was the sole reason they finished 4th and not dead last by a mile. So considering karlsson was Easily their best player by far, he’s playing 25 minutes a game on the worst team whose only motivation is to lose games for bedard. He was the only guy driving offence on that team. I still can’t believe people say he didn’t deserve to win it, he absolutely did and everyone who says otherwise is wrong. He was the most important defencemen to their team. He mattered more to the sharks than Ptro was to Vegas in the regular season.
@@clandon9624 I explained why +/- is important stat and you didn’t really give any explanation to otherwise, except blaming his teammates, who helped him to get his 100pts. Now you don’t understand the term “defence” All you did is brought up his offensive skills, while the fact is, that Karlsson is also one of the reason Sharks suck so bad, he’s literally defensive liability. He made some solid anti-records in the league. Just because he decided to gave up on defence and focus on scoring, didn’t make him deserve to win Norris. Interesting fact: Karlsson blocks per 60min is ranked 200th among 208 nhl defenceman (minimum 42 games played)
@@RealmOFOxidian His teammates are the problem. You ignored all of why I said it’s a garbage stat. That’s why I brought his teammates up, because if he was on any other team, his teammates would have helped him reach 100 sooner. If Karlsson focused on defence then the sharks would have the 2nd overall pick. His strength is offence, work around that. It’s not up to him to change whole fucking archetypes to a defensive defensemen just to try and make a shit team better. I’ll say this again, the team was TRYING TO FUCKING LOSE, why would he care about his defensive play? Why? There is no reason. He is still the most Valuable defensmen. If his team was a contender than you’re valid in your defensive criticism, I would also like to see him tighten that up, but he had no reason to. The Gm wants to lose so they can be better in the future. Deep down I’m sure Drury was absolutely pissed at how great Karlsson was, they could have gotten Bedard.
@@RealmOFOxidian again why would he try and block shots if the goal was to get scored on????
It's the same for Selke! Defensive forwards, no matter how good they are, are not even votes when they don't produce.
The thing is that I think it’s not worth it to even have him in a team. He generates all these goals and still has a -26. I know the sharks aren’t a good team but it’s showing that his defense is so bad that it’s not even worth it to have him.
Erik Karlsson winning the Norris Trophy made a mockery of that award.
plus/minus is also not always an accurate stat for assessing skill and/or effectiveness. Like you mention in the video, there are many other factors that can skew this stat in your favor or against you.
It has been the most offensive defenceman award for years now.
Sharks have invested so much in this guy, its nice to see him play well and do something for the team.
he left
@@AMiller27 thank you Captain obvious. I commented that months ago 👍
I've always thought there should be a separate trophy for the best defensive D. While the +/- stat (and goalie stats, and thus, the Jenning's Trophy) are impacted hard by overall team effectiveness. The priority for a D at the end of the day is Defense. Karlsson is an absolute asset playing at that level for sure, but given how weak his defensive game and effort are, Fox, Josi, Makar and Hedman (and maybe others) are bigger overall net positives at the position and thus, should be above him in any Norris voting. I think him cracking 100 points and having Leetch mentioned in the same sentence kinda misguided some small-minded voters. There are some 'experts' and people in these positions that aren't quite as cerebral as they definitely should be.
Oh yeah and I might add that Jeff Schultz, who was Mike Green's D partner in Washington about a decade ago was +52 and the league leader one year. Good D, but still that illustrates pretty well how bad the +/- stat is for basing stuff on. There are many damn great players who have a much worse +/- and many relative lineup-fillers with a much better one than one would expect, or than they frankly deserve.
I'd love to see the NHL keep the Norris and actually give it to the best candidate who plays both ends. Make the Bobby Orr award to the top offensive defenseman that leads the league in points, like an Art Ross for Defensemen
Absolutely!!!
It's currently given to the most valuable defenseman, I don't see what's wrong with it. So stupid to think that just because "defense" is in the name of the position, that it's what they need to be the best at. Guaranteed EK had more impact for the Sharks than what any other "defensive defenseman" in the league had on their team
@@jocke8277 Sure, that's why they had such a deep playoff run, because Karlsson was the impact player. If anything, his being on the ice most of the time when the opponent scored hurt the Sharks more than his point total helped.
@@tt128556 playing 25+ minutes on a shit team will always result in a bad plus/minus
@@jocke8277 if he was on the ice for 64% of their goals for, but still ended up -26, then he was on the ice for over 70% of their goals. Why does he get so much credit for all the offence, but isn't to blame for any of the defensive issues (as a defence man)?
I can’t take this trophy serious ever since they gave it to f-n Brent Burns
Hey he is a trans-defenseman so respect his pronouns. 🤣
@@classic.cameraswhat are you on about ?
great analysis
+/- is much more of a team stat than an indivual one, check the same stat on every player on the sharks roster and you'll find far worse stats than EK's . Sharks had a garbage season and of course that reflects on the team stats.
4. That's how many player on the Sharks had a worse +/-
@dw4867 he is probably the player who got the most empty net goal scored against. om a bad losing team if you play 26 minutes a game you will have the worst +/-
@@mathieulebrun5589 he led the team in 5v5 ice time where they gave up the most goals in the league, he led all their D in PP ice time where they were 1 off the league lead for most shorties against, but was almost dead last in PK ice time where they were 10 ten in the league. I'm not saying they would be a decent team without him, but he did nothing to improve that team and was a major reason they were so terrible defensively.
@dw4867 lol they have the worst line up in the league. first time ever a 100 points defenseman doesn't have a forward with 100 points in his team. only Orr led his team when he had 100 more points. he had James reimer, I repeat James reimer in net
@@mathieulebrun5589 and what's Reimer supposed to do when his #1 "defenseman" cares more about padding his point total than playing D?
How many goals the Sharks allowed in an empty net?
Yeah, as soon as everyone was talking about Karlsson being back and playing like his former self, I knew he was going to get the Norris. Good for him though and hopefully he can continue playing close to last season.
All the more reason there needs to be a defensive defensemen of the year award. As the Norris is clearly an OFFENSIVE Defensemen's awards. Should have gone to Miro Heiskanen but he plays for Dallas and thats the backwater of the NHL.
i watch your vids pretty often
As a Sharks season ticket holder, I think this is the best and most balanced analysis I have heard regarding EK65 this year. He is an offensive powerhouse. He is a horrible defenseman.
I agree with the comments regarding the +\- stat being misleading. However, Karlsson was on the ice for 127 goals against; about 30 more than any other Shark player; 85 more than any other Shark defenseman, and ~40% of the total goals scored against. Oh yeah, he doesn’t play on the penalty kill. Probably why the Sharks had the 7th best penalty kill percentage in the NHL in 2022-23 despite being one of the worst teams in the league.
I'm pretty sure your numbers aren't accurate. You seemingly assumed his 101 points were all plusses and he netted a minus 26 so 101+26 = 127. You're neglecting the fact that you don't get a plus for a power play goal. He had 74 even strength points and as you said, he didn't play much on the PK (no minus for a goal against on the PK), so he was probably on the ice for roughly 100 goals against. Still a lot but a good chunk less than you're saying.
The Sharks gave up 23 empty net goals and, while Karlsson wasn't on the ice for all of them, he was on the ice for most of those situations. Aside from that, even when there was a goalie in net, the Sharks were trailing very often late in games, at which point teams take extra risks such as going for that home run pass, cheating out of the zone, or making a risky pinch. Those risks lead to more goals allowed than goals for but losing by 2 goals counts the same as losing by 1 goal.
Out of 107 goalies who played, Kahkonen had the 106th worst goals saved above expected (he allowed 24.6 goals more than expected) and Reimer had the 99th worst (allowed 11.3 more than expected). Karlsson definitely wasn't on the ice for all of those, but having some of the worst goalies in the league doesn't help your plus minus.
@@jonmendelson1104 Fair enough, I defer to your stats. I agree he was on the ice for long periods of time in empty net situations; and yes, both goalies, especially Kahkonen were, poor. Reiner had some great games, many in losses, but also some real stinkers. I think this clip by Hockey Psychology does a good job of capturing both the substantial positives EK gives the Sharks as well as his downsides. Positives certainly outweigh the negatives. The negatives are all on the defensive side though, which makes him a controversial Norris Trophy selection.
His 5v5 relative goal differential was elite.
Just create a Bobby Orr trophy for top scoring defenceman (like the Art Ross), and then give the Norris to the best actual defender.
I loved him in Ottawa, but when he left i soooo wanted him to go to Edmonton and spring McDavid over and over again. It would have been the second coming of Coffey/Gretzky
Do you have any hockey podcasts you reccomend?
They got a bunch of awards for offense men and goalies, but only one for defense, they gotta make a offense and defensive defenseman award
It's absolute wicked what he did, esp. on the sharks roster. I mean look how the sharks perform now.
Dude is a legend.
It was wicked. But you can say more about what Pavelski did for the Sharks. EK had the same exact core team after Pavs left, and yet, the SHarks went from 3 best team in the Western Conference to the worst team in the Conference...2nd worst in the NHL, I believe. So, yes...wicked. That he did.
To be fair, a -26 as a top minute dman on a team like that isn't THAT bad.
In golf Karlsson would of won the Masters by a landslide 😂 a -26 is trash 😂 hell even Morgan Rielly playing on the FUCKIN MAPLE LEAFS was a +5 😂 that means Rielly was more defensively sound than Karlsson
2 seperate awards: best offensive defensemen, (most pts). best +\- for defender over 82 games.
Karlsson thrives on losing teams. The worse the team, the better he does. He is a specialist at losing.
I don't deny that Karlsson's defense is terrible, and that it's questionable if he deserves an award for being the best all-around defenseman. However, don't use +/- to defend your position. +/- is a weak stat with many flaws, particularly with how it can be influenced in good ways and bad ways by special teams. Use something like Expected Goals For and Against. It's more balanced and would still get your point across.
If you’re a defensemen you should be able to defend.
As an Avs fan watching Karlsson makes me so happy we have Makar, who is so focused on the finer aspects of playing defense and not just a forward on the blue line
He's the best offensive D in my book partly because of what you just said.
- and I'm a Philly fan so. 🤷♂️
It's also a lot easier playing D on the Avs than the Sharks. Makar missed too many games to be considered this year.
The Norris has always skewed towards recognizing offense. There is no way Lidstrom would have won it as many times if he was only putting up 40-50pts a year (which were completely good totals for the era he played in). You look at many modern winners (Doughty, Keith, Burns, Makar) and sure they are good-great defenders but its their points that put them over the top. It just "feels" a little better because we forget they all played on great teams that weren't getting slaughtered every night. If Karlsson played on the Hurricanes or Knights he would surely have been a + player last year. The defensive critiques would still be there, but he also might have put up 115-120pts on teams like that. Historically amazing season for EK and very deserving of recognition.
Offense is the best defense, just saying
Idea: Norris is the best defensive defence man award. Trophy named after Bobby Orr given to the best offensive defence man
like Paul Coffey when was a Oiler and a Red Wing , all three players that was up for the Norris this season were same as Karlsson ,fast right hand shot , offence first d-men ,but none of them were pure defense maybe Fox for the Rangers ,.but i think they should have a award for the defensman that lead the NHL in scoring and the Norris for best D-man that season ,the Orr cup ? like the Art Ross not everyone that win that don't always win the Hart .but because this the NHL ,it will take forever to make any changes if they ever do .
Idk about having 2 awards. On one hand, if you have an award for best defensive forward, it makes sense to have an award for best offensive defensemen. On the other, if you have 2 awards, it would take away from the best all-around defensemen who wouldn't get recognized for the 2 awards at each end of the position. In which, maybe have 3 awards. Idk
the best "all around" doesn't get recognized at all, proven by this video. He's one of the worst defensive d-men, but one of the best offensive. So, all-around, that makes him average, not one of the best.
They need an award for highest scoring defenseman like the rocket. Where nothing else matters but the point total. Then leave the Norris for the best all around defender.
could easily make a new trophy for Offensive Defensemen to battle over, take the highest point scorer of all time and name the trophy after them
Funny how the year Barrie led the league for Defensive man and didn’t get a single vote but this year Erik runs away with it 😂
They have the Selke for the best defensive forward why not have an award for the best offensive defenseman and leave the Norris for the actual best defenseman who should at minimum be an even +/- if not a plus player as a minimum prerequisite. When I think Norris I think Lidstrom who was a lock down defenseman. We should keep it that way. A Norris trophy winner is someone who you want out there when you’re trying to preserve a 1 goal lead with the other teams goalie pulled.
Two trophies would be a good idea.
My god, 101 points and -26. Didn't even realize LOL
Hey is 'bad' defensively. He just isn't who he is on offense. He is still pretty darn good at d, playing it in the nhl and leading the league in blocked shots. Despite the lowlights you showed He has highlights on d as well.
They may not be the prettiest parts of the game, but playing the more physical side of hockey should be rewarded. In the future, it would be great for the NHL to have awards for best defensive defenseman, most hits, and most blocked shots.
More hits and blocked shots means a bad defensive performance because it means the other team has the puck more.
For people saying that - 26 isn’t that bad because he was on San Jose… I must remind you that he had one of the worst +/- on his own team
He plays over 25 minutes a game.
That's a given since he's on the ice more than anyone else.
@@varmastiko2908yeah but if he’s on the ice less, his points decrease.
@@OaksArmorial As do the minus points
@@varmastiko2908 That’s the point.
They need to have two defensemen awards.
He did not deserve the Norris. He’s the fourth forward when he’s on the ice. 101 points so that’s +101 so far…and finished a -26? Yikes!
I think Erik Karlsson deserved the Norris trophy this year.
The plus/minus alone shows he didn’t. Look at McAvoys goal against him. He can’t defend
@@jingleoctopus4160look at the team around them though, Boston had a goal differential of +128, San Jose had -87, the goalies and team are the reason for that. Switch Karlsson and mcavoy and their plus minus will switch to
@@thepuffypenguin4470 I’m not talking about there plus/minus comparison. I’m specifically referring to McAvoys goal on him where karlsson put little to no effort in defensively
@@jingleoctopus4160 oh my bad i miss read that
@@thepuffypenguin4470 all good
i think it says alot about the media around the nhl. these guys just look at counting stats and hand out awards based off that
I read many comments and see there is a wish for a defensive D trophy. How does one measure defensive play alone? The Norris Trophy definition is good as it is. But there should be an offensive Bobby Orr Trophy and give the Norris to the Heiskanen's and Josi's in the league...
Karlsson should be a fwd...he would easily get 75+ pts a year
I don't think he deserved it too much over Heiskanen as he is great offensively but fantastic on the defense as well. Karlsson had worse team and put up better numbers points-wise, but like you said it depends on what you prioritize.
Put EK in Boston! Do you think he'll have a negative +/- playing the EXACT same hockey as in San Jose ?🤔
Adam Fox and PK Subban were even more egregious. They’re just 4th forwards
0:22 have one trophy for offense defenseman and one trophy for defensive defenseman
Ottawa chose Redden, over Chara, because of +/-, showing that this stat alone isn't telling of the while game.
They need to change it by adding an award one for the best defensive defenseman and one for the best offensive defenseman. This has been stupid for year.
It's like being a Panther fan and hearing how great our D-men are because they score.
Defenceman and defender are not synonymous with each other. They used to be, but it hasn't been that way for at least 50 years. Similarly, the Norris is not an award for best defender, but an award for best defenceman. Clearly the voters figured Karlsson's point production made him the best defenceman even if he wasn't the best defender. There should be a best defensive defenceman award, sure, as well as an award for the defenceman who leads the league in points, but the Norris doesn't need to change. People have had a long time to adjust this status quo.
If the best defense is a good offense, why not just give the award to the player with the most goals?
If you have a +/- of -26, ain’t no way you’re defensemen of the year. What was the team record.
Karlsson earned this trophy! No doubt. When you attack the puck is not on your defense zone.
They say the best defense is a good offense...apparently the voters agree!
Ha...if that were true, the Oilers would have been the best defensive team and would have won the Cup already. We see this season after season. Teams that stacked offensively does really well during the regular season but never gets through the first 2 rounds in the playoffs. Almost always. Even before the Oilers and Leafs offensive dominance, we had the Capitals a handful of seasons before winning the Cup. We can even go back to the good ol 90's Red Wings dominance...destroyed by the Devils' defensive dominance. Not until teams beef up their D did these team win Cups.
When has the selke winner won the hart?
Offense is the best defense
He deserves it, you explain why at 0:48. Do you expect a player in such a bad team to have +28, he is one of the only decent players in this team. But yes a defensive defenseman trophy would be a great idea
Here's the problem. Pavs last season with the Sharks, they were the top 3 team in the Western Conf. The same exact core team (the same to 8 players) the next season, minus Pavs. They were not a bad team. How can you say there were a bad team when you were given the same team...Kane, Thornton, Meier, Hertl, Couture, Lebanc, Burns, Goodrow...this is the same core team. Took one season for the Sharks to become dead last in their conference...and the only big difference was EK/Pavs
Karlsson is about Karlsson....that's about it.
Anybody know, for how many empty netters against he was on the ice for? That‘s probably-15 alone at least because the Sharks were so bad
How many goals did they score with their goalie pulled? Are you taking that into consideration?
He’s basically a forward. The Norris should be equivalent of the Selke for D men. There could be another award for offensive defenseman.
I really want to see Slavin win the Norris one day. He has deserved it for many year's.
What a stupid remark to involve +/- into the discussion. + / - stats totally depends on the team. His 101 points become even more impressive playing in a mediocre team. I agree that it should be a defensive award but Karlsson is def worth the trophy.
I'm looking at the Sharks' stats this season and all I see is a team that was told to open up and try to score. Generally I agree with takes that +/- is generally a team stat and if EK was -5, -10, or even -15, I'd understand and probably wouldn't have puked in my mouth when he won the Norris. As that minus number gets bigger and bigger, it gets harder and harder to stomach a Norris for this playstyle. The dude scored *101* points and was *-26*. That is an extreme minus stat-line for that type of production. All that indicates to me is that he had no defensive responsibilities that he was held accountable for and focused solely on getting his cookies. Even if he was a "victim" of the team's playstyle for the year, nobody should win the Norris for that garbage.
As I wrote Karlsson was -11 at five on five. 15 of his -26 were open net goals. 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.' (Mark Twain).
+- is more of a team stat than an individual stat
jaccob slavin is the best defensive defenseman in the league, despite not scoring often, i think he should win some sort of award because his skill level is undeniably elite.
Completely agree, just watching Slavin has helped me learn the finer aspects of positioning defensively. He's just so flawless at everything defense
I agree with both- the people who voted karlsson to win and people who says he doesn’t deserve it because of defensive abilities but the points he got this season is just too much to give the award to someone else. So i say he deserves it
Plus minus is deceptive, agreed, but just on eye test he's as reliable as a Ford Pinto defensively. If a defenseman can't DEFEND, he's not a defender, plain and simple. The Norris Trophy should consider points, blocked shots, takeaways to giveaways ratios, +/- with a grain of salt, what they do at both ends of the ice matters, the best Offensive defensemen of old, Red Kelly, Doug Harvey, and Bobby Orr, (I'm talking early Norris Era here), they were all very good defensively, in Fact Harvey was called by his peers the best Defenseman when it came to all sides of the game, even better than Orr. Orr was great defensively but he had the occasional lapse due to his offensive game. If you cannot play the central duty of a defenseman consistently, you aren't the best defenseman at all, go for the Ross then, the Hart, but by golly don't try to make me call you the best Defenseman, because you didn't earn it. The points Karlsson put up were great, but Miro Heiskanen have shown ability at both ends of the ice, there are many defenders that trounce Karlsson defensively with only a slight drop in points.
It'd be different if a player had sole responsibility for his +/-, but it depends totally on the entire team on the ice. So saying he's not the best Defenseman because the overall team was bad makes no sense. His offense is a part of his game and a part of his position. Being a good offensive defenseman on a bad defensive team shouldn't disqualify you for the best defenseman trophy. Hell, the goalie is involved as much, if not more in the +/- of the defense than singular defensemen. All that said, if you want to split the award into OD and DD, then that would be fine, but you'd have to use stats that D-men can control themselves instead of just +/-.
Finally someone adresses the issue I have
First defence man with 100 points since 1992.... bruh the sharks TEAM was shit and he played 5min per night more than the next guy -26 is pretty fucking good in that team. But yeah, we need defencive defenceman trophy for sure!
It's been this way for years. It's not really a best defenseman award. It's a best offense from a defenseman award.
Good analysis, yes.. create a new Bobby Orr trophy. I’ve been saying this a bunch on my podcast.
Someone tried arguing with me that karlson is a good defenseman because he won the Norris 😂 this trophy is the 4th forward trophy
offense is the best defense
There should be a Bobby Orr Award (Best Offensive D-man) and a Doug Harvey Trophy (Best Defensive D-man)... The Norris has been a joke since the beginning of the 1980's! Hell, even James Norris wasn't even a player, but a business man (a cattle man!), who owned parts of The Red Wings, The Blackhawks, and The Rangers over his time in The NHL. Spend enough money, and get a Trophy, I guess!
Ya 2 awards for defensemen makes sense. There's an award for best defensive forward so why not have one for best defensive defenseman?
Is Bobby Orr really remembered and revered for his defensive skills? Or Paul Coffey? Would this even be a discussion if Karlsson was a Canadian?
I think the Norris trophy should still he handed out to the best all around trophy but a new trophy should be made for the best offensive defenseman
I believe there should be 2 awards !!!
You know what they say, offense is the best defense
I get your Point and your right….tbh if had Karlson on a Team i would make him Play Winger…
you get his right?
Karlsson show that the best defense is offense
He's the best forward to win the Norris trophy... three times