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Palpatine threw the fight against Mace Windu!
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- čas přidán 11. 05. 2023
- One of the oldest and most heated star wars debates on the internet is if Palpatine threw the fight against Mace Windu, or if Mace Windu beat Palpatine fair and square.
In this video I descend from the heavens as the omniscient otaku that I am and give the objectively correct answer to this question!
#starwars #palpatine #macewindu #darthsidious
I'm the radical centrist: Windu did win fair and square the actual lightsaber duel but if he was ever in real danger Sidious could have ended the fight effortlessly with the force, which is what he actually did
That is definitely one of the stronger possibilities. I go over that and pretty much everything in this video.
@@weeaboo-warrior I think what's key here is Windu literally is the master duelist who focused on that to the detriment of anything else while Palpatine basically considers lightsaber fighting beneath him and a silly distraction. And despite that, Windu was still only able to beat him after a hard fight!
@@AnythingMachineWindu is the only Jedi to master the Force ability Vaapad without falling to the Dark Side.....he also mastered the ability Shatter point. Your whole answer is devoid of reason.
@Sammy Martin it's stated that Palpatine specifically threw the saber portion of the duel
@@Prince_the_One "toying with Jedi Master in the anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Windu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face Master Yoda in a duel a little after the death of Mace Windu."
Fanhome 90 book encyclopedia collection
Im telling Samuel L Jackson you said this.
Please, no!
@@weeaboo-warriorWould You Hang Him To.😂
This was a way longer video than I thought it would be LOL
There is just that much evidence, lol.
In the Star Wars universe, it is heavily implied that Palpatine did not throw the fight against Mace Windu. According to the events depicted in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine was engaged in a lightsaber duel with Mace Windu, during which Windu was able to disarm him and corner him. At this point, Palpatine unleashed a powerful burst of Force lightning at Windu, who reflected it back at him with his lightsaber, causing Palpatine's face to become disfigured.
It is possible that Palpatine intentionally allowed himself to be disarmed in order to manipulate Anakin Skywalker, who was present during the fight, into believing that he was in danger and needed Skywalker's help. However, there is no clear evidence to suggest that Palpatine deliberately threw the fight against Windu, and it is more likely that he was genuinely overpowered and disarmed before resorting to the use of his Force lightning.
AI, you have failed me for the last time!
Okay watch the whole then rethink what you just said
In Legends, not canon
Excellent video and extremely thorough, as always. You’re underrated, if you keep up with this quality you’re bound to blow up soon
Thank you!
I always assumed that Mace just had an "A-Game" moment to beat Palpatine in the duel, but could never overpower him with the force
That’s possible
Nope:
"Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
@@thomasthetank827I mean to be far George Lucas was asked this and George Lucas claimed windu won fair and square.
I’m assuming it’s a mix of vapaad a game and luck and sidious not adapting do to not being used to windu’s vapaad at the time.
I still think sidious would win 6/10 but this fight is like if Conner Mcager ko’d khabib, it happened cause it was possible even if khabib winning was more likely.
@@thomasthetank827actually 7-8/10 might be more accurate. I’m not saying palpatine’s weaker but after watching the video it seams to imply in a dual anything can happen. Mace had an a game and palpatine was fighting like he would any other Jedi instead of adapting to Maces vapaad is what I think happened.
@wv5853 you are assuming that vappad has effects that are so effective. That's not seen or described on screen, so if we are using tie in material to figure out the scene, then new canon has already provided that to us.
They canonized the idea that Sidious was toying with Windu, and allowed himself to get kicked and disarmed in the saber portion of the duel.
Disney has Darth Sidious as nearly unbeatable in traditional combay.
I think the film (and novel) make it pretty clear Windu won their lightsaber duel thanks to Vapaad. Sidious definetely threw the fight, he could've easily defeated Windu with his force powers. In his duel with Yoda, he chose to fight without his lightsaber at some point, while Yoda tried to reach him in order to continue their lightsaber duel. It's pretty obvious that Yoda was the superior duelist in their fight, but Palpatines power of the force at this point surpassed even Yodas. So he chose to fight with only that.
If you didn't watch the whole video, I recommend you check out 11:33. It goes over the vaapad stuff.
@@weeaboo-warrior I did, just wanted to give my opinion on this (which is not very far from yours).
@@tongatapu7325 Ah ok cool. the novel does make it seem like Mace legit disarmed him, but the part with Palpatine calling Mace a fool for thinking the fear he felt was his makes me really question that. I don't think the movie has anything on screen that shows it one way or the other.
This section of ROTS is my favorite part of Star Wars. So much rides on those moments. I always thought the "You Must Choose" part was so important but after watching this video I'm not sure. Could Sidious really have taken on Anakin and Mace if Anakin didn't step in?
Sidious taking them on both at once is questionable. If Anakin chose Mace's side Palpatine my have dipped out the window.
You can definitely make an argument that Mace out dueled Palpatine and disarmed him legitimately. But after that, it’s pretty obvious Palpatine was pretending to have lost in order to manipulate Anakin.
Actually new canon confirms it was all a ruse:
"Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
@@thomasthetank827Interesting. May I ask where this is from?
@@ViscountAsmodeus
Here's more:
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade.
Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated."
2022
Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
2022 fanhome encyclopedia collection
"His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly."
Disney - Fanhome Encyclopedia collection
2022
"During the confrontation with Mace Windu, the office window was smashed. Soon after, Palpatines weapon fell onto the streets of Coruscant, but it was all part of the Sith's plan."
2022
I always believed palpatine throw the fight just because of how he had has blade directly pointed at mace's chest and didn't kill him. Fantastic video, would love to know the sources stating palpatine toyed with mace
I think it was from the relaunched fact files, and one was from fanhome encyclopedia.
Very well made, Their Talzin fight is always the evidence I go to when I come to this debate
Thank you! Someone finally said what I believed all this time. Now my head canon is that Windu won the saber duel fair and square (Vaapad and Windu was probably at his best). But make no mistake, Palpatine did not lose the fight. And there's evidence for that in the movie itself. When Yoda faces Palpatine, he actually disarms him off screen (confirmed by the novel and implied in the movie) but later on, Palpatine immediately disarms Yoda with force lightning. Unless Yoda is weaker than Windu (which is debunked by several sources), it's safe to assume that Windu would have lost the match later on
I loved your video. Thank you for doing the research and finding the interview clips from all involved. I knew Palpatine Won the moment I saw the film when it came out.
Thanks and you’re welcome!
Palpatine was Anakin's Mentor so Palpatine knew that He should use Mace specifically to tempt Anakin to The Dark Side
Yep, Mace was probably the most likely jedi Anakin would cut the arm off of, lol. They had bad blood.
@@weeaboo-warrior I find it ironic too cuz Mace had just told Anakin that he may have gained his trust. Which ended up being his downfall 💀
@@animezparadisez69 yeah that’s true, haha
You should do a legandery pokemon power tier list
Really enjoyed discussing this with you!!!
Same!
It got stated he threw the fight in some databook or something so there's no debate
Yeah I posted them in this video.
I like how Lorerunner put it many years ago, “Palpatine could crush Windu like a BUG if he wanted to”.
13:31 To be fair, Force users in the Clone Wars tv series always feel like they're as weak as the plot needs them to be.
Great video in general.
Great video, could we get some more SW tier lists!
Yep, I’m working on a clone wars tier list!
@@weeaboo-warrior buzzing, just rewatched your original SW one, to remind myself on your placing of Mace from this video
@@Beej-y yeah I think my spot for him then is still good. I might even rank him lower now (maybe the top of the tier below) but I think where I put him was fine.
Lmao so many people comment on your video before even watching it saying “GeOrGe LuCaS sAiD hE wOn fAiR aNd sQuArE” without even providing evidence or watching your explanation.
Yep, it’s annoying.
Nah windu won even Lucas said so sorry and palpatine looked terrified lol
I go over that statement right at the beginning of the video. And it’s called acting.
Ignore this Reylo Incest Southerner😂😂 he couldn't accept the Fact that Windu Won Fair and Square, When Remember on Twitter People Were Mad at Finn being Casted As A reflected Stormtrooper. Finn could have been Like Kyle Katarn and Kylo and Rey are Jaina and Jacen J.J. Abrams Confirmed it. Fett Fan Boys, Qui Gon Fan Boys and People Saying Palpatine Threw Reylo nor Stormpilot shippers should know By now Not To Test What I have against my Vapaad Power.
@@katarn0329 It was confirmed in the novel Vaapad was no match for Palpatine, lmao.
@@weeaboo-warrior No George Lucas the all time creator said that. So I could understand That You would hang urban Acolytes and John Boyega if you had the chance.😂😂😂🖕🖕🖕🏿
Only blacks can be so stupid as to take that scene as Palpatine being legitimately scared of Windu 🤣
Palpatine threw the fight to fuck his own face up lol
I go over that point in the video. You should actually watch it before commenting.
Dude I wasn't asking you I made a statement. Read what I'm saying I didn't disagree with you.
Very surprised this is still a discussion, especially since we've got "word of god" on it. Mace beat Sidious because he was literally designed to beat that kind of opponent. Anakin appeared, Sidious tried to take advantage of his emotions because Anakin was a n00b, Mace pissed Sidious off but the force lightning wasn't enough, so he went back to trying to manipulate Anakin again and it paid off.
I really don't understand this resistance to the idea of Palps being scooped. There are no all-powerful villains in Star Wars.
You clearly didn’t watch the video.
My point exactly ☝🏿
@@jfraser820 what’s your point?
@@weeaboo-warrior J Fraser is agreeing with on the fact that Jarrett Burch didn't watch the video before commenting.
@@Field_of_Illusion99 I thought it might be that, but it’s possible he was replying to the first comment.
when and what is the next tierlist
MCU phase 4, probably in the next few weeks
Very good points. I think he did throw the fight because it was part of the master plan.
Massive W bro, even just going off legends palps 100 percent held back. In the passage you mentioned in the novel, it says “the shadows fear turned some of its force-powered speed into force powered grip” but we find out palps wasn’t afraid at all. So if he didn’t slow down out of fear he definitely slowed down to get disarmed on purpose
exactly
I think Mace won the duel because of Vaapad but he would have probably lost overall
If you watch carefully at 8.51, you can see that Sidious force moves windu's disarmed lightsaber away from falling on him and out the window
lol I never noticed that!
Thank you for addressing this, nobody else seems to get this.
No problem
I agree with you and i think the video is solid.
But i do have some problems with it
1. Sidious is not hindered because he chose to focus his augmentation on other aspects of his fighting. If so the same would apply to Mace, and if Sidious felt he needed more grip and chose to focus his powers on this, it would because he needed it. You change your augmentiation to your advantage, not disadvantage. So if he didn't, logically he would be even worse.
2. Maul versus Mace is not scaleable, as we have no idea how long their battle went on for. This could be a 5 seconds fight, and even Maul can go with Sidous for some seconds.
3. It's stated to use a lightsaber you need to have a lot of knowladge and practice, and there is nothing suggesting she has any knowladge or practice with a litghsaber. However, what she used in her duel with Mace is different.
Should also consider how Dooku's body might have affected her performance as well his body being fatigued.
4. It's hard to scale off the Mace vs Dooku fight in the comic, and being cought off guard with a choke doesn't necasearly mean anything. However, ofc the intent is with all probability for him to be shown superior.
5. The Jedi's senses is weakened during the war, and i don't think not being able to sense a bomb means anything, and when both him and Anakin fails to lift the wreckage i don't think it's that easy. Also considering Yoda struggling to lift the tube in atoc and the pods in rots.
And the mountain feat is not Yoda actually lifting the rock, and more his connection to the force allowing him to do so(stated by the author, look in gray's scan server for the argument).
6. Gundark andt he war lord doesn't realy mean anything except for how his charachter his portrayed, and Sidious's feat on that beast is a way stronger Sidious.
7. Being able to compete with Sidious doesn't necasearly mean he is at Yoda's level.
rest is good, overall very solid vid
Should also consider that the version fighting Sidious, maybe being beyond the older versions.
Mace is here fighting the man who destroyed his life, killed his brothers, millions of soldiers and civilians, and brought war on the thing Mace loved the most in the world, the republic.
And especially with the Canon way of Vaapad which is it feeding of its users emotion this coud be a stronger Mace then we have seen before.
I think mace windu can win the lightsaber duel if vaapad kicks in. In a force battle forget it palpatine wins hands down.
No Mace Windu Wins Hands Down
@@Cademan2005 How can Mace win against Palpatine in a force duel? In what version of Star Wars does that happen? 💀
Bruh when’s the updated marvel Teri list coming out
Very soon. I’m almost done rewatching the phase 4 stuff. I’m hoping it will be out within two weeks. It basically depends how fast I am.
@@weeaboo-warrior good iv been refreshing your channel weekly
Huge W my guy,
There is also a legends comic where Mace gets stalemated by a one saber wielding Ventress. With both her sabers I believe she would have won.
And this Ventress lost to padawan Anakin in that legendary 2003 cw fight.
Its all not canon though, but still another prove.
YUP I HAVE THAT COMIC. And these fools think Windu beat sidious smfh
@@alexrichards3337 Yeah Sidious is on another level.
"I just put Mace under Anakin and Yoda, but Palpatine is a whole other level"
-Nick Gillard
And in some imterview George said that Sidious is indeed the most powrrful of his generation.
@@monatry5533 To be fair I think she uses her double blade at some point against Mace but come on.. clearly struggling
Make a updated power scale with Jedi survivor out
I was planning on making sperate lists for all star wars content. For example, a clone wars tier list, a rebels tier list, a fallen order/jedi survivor tier list, ect. then when that's all done redo my complete list again with all of my updated knowledge. I will probably wait for the third game to make a tier list on those though, since it's pretty much confirmed it's going to be a trilogy.
@@weeaboo-warrior sounds good but since it’ll be years I wanna know your opinion now where would you rank Survivor Cal, Cere, Merrin, and Bode?
@@thatfunkymonkey7667 Cere would be high master, probably above ROTS Kenobi and arguably even Dooku since she almost beat Vader. Cal would either be low or mid master tier, with the dark side he would probably be mid master to possibly the bottom of high master. Merrin would likely be low master. Bode would be low to mid. Dagan would probably be mid master, to maybe the bottom of high master.
@@weeaboo-warrior sick man thank you for responding
@@thatfunkymonkey7667 No problem!
He also threw the fight so he can Anakin to better appeal to his side
Yep
Are u sith Qui Gon? Lol😃
Possibly 😈
@@weeaboo-warrior possibly? Uhno
Watch the scene in the slowest speed and look how Palpatine covers his face in fear as mace is about to slam his lightsaber down. He was beaten legitimately. Also, why would he risk his entire plan on anakin maybe saving him? Did he think anakin would just not care about the 3 dead jedi masters in his office? Palpatine definitely acted weaker than he was when anakin entered, but that was his last option
Palpatine was acting the entire time, he never showed true fear.
@weeaboo-warrior he looked pretty afraid to me, especially if, like I said, you watch the scene in the slowest speed. After mace knocked his saber away, he scurried like a rat to the corner
@@Spider-Man647 yeah, he had to act well enough to trick Mace.
Oh my gosh your still arguing for Mace winning even after all this evidence, you are blind man dang, I was literally laughing at your comment. You are like super buu gohan still thinking he is superior to vegito after getting his ass whooped.
Omg mace lost just stop it already the one who played palpatine even said he lost on purpose and the one who made the fight said he threw the fight and would beat him everytime. Maybe he lost the lightsaber duel but tbh he was still probably holding back waiting for anakin and he was 100% holding back on the lighting I was able to see that when I was like 8 years old stop it already
Dookus done Yoda in too , and straight up admits he can't defeat Mace in a fight , then loses to a serious Yoda later on .
Same Yoda dispatches Mace abd other powerful council members to take on Sidious whom Mace counters and nearly killed ( again this is legends, not canon)
People all you have to do is read the books
You’ll know with Vapaad windu is stronger and a better dueller
Just accept it
Did you not watch the video? I literally go over the book and how it blatantly states Palpatine is beyond vaapad twice.
Yet George Lucas has said many times Windu beat palpatine in a duel. Palpatine thought he was better than Windu. He wasn’t. He Lost
@@Bilski86Said it where a couple of times? All I’m seeing is everyone quoting the audio log from the ROTS dvd of GL stating Mace was meant to overpower Sidious in that situation.
purr!
neko?
@@weeaboo-warrior what the hell does that mean
@@xxjoebamaxx7782 it means cat in Japanese, lol
@@weeaboo-warrior why
@@xxjoebamaxx7782 because you were purring, lol
Palpatine won Because he tricked Windu
W Sidious threw the fight many statements support that (I didn’t watch the video I just already knew the video was going to be a W by the caption)
Haha, we’ll your intuition is correct
Incredibile video. I completely agree on everything. Mace Windu DID not beat Palpatine fair and square. There is this unbearable urban myth made up by some random fans that is used by dumb people. George Lucas never said that, people just learn how to listen and hear the actual interview. Mace Windu is extremely overrated, I mean he had so much hype in G-canon, but in the new Disney canon… is just…. Overrated. Plenty of anti feats and barely any feat. His best one is probably matching Dooku (who wasn’t even likely going 100%). That’s all.
People who ask whether or not Palpatine threw the fight against Mace Windu are entirely missing the point.
Palpatine is a *SITH.* He doesn't care about who is the better duelist between him and Mace because
1) He considers Lightsabers beneath him as it is a "Jedi's weapon"
2) Unlike Anakin who wants to be a great warrior Palpatine just wants power *UNLIMITED* *POWER*
Even if Mace legitimately won the duel (which he likely did) Palpatine still out witted him and killed him.
There is more than one way to fight a war
and there is more than one way to win a fight. Which is a lesson Mace learned all to late in his life
Urban Acolytes is already a Self hater on Reylo's Mental Plantation.
Huh?
@@weeaboo-warrior You heard Me always Down sizing Windu and Finn and only Prefer Aliens and White people and Not Care for Lucas welcoming to All Races and Cultures. But Noo. When Lucas said Mace Windu Beat Palpatine Fair and Square. But Nope. You Racial Fans only prefer Aliens and White people. Just Remember the Reylo Fandom caused. So Try saying Something with Logic when Lucas said Mace Windu Beat Palpatine Fair and Square. You Snake.
Take that, Mace fanboys!
Palpatine would not intentionally get himself blasted with lightning and risk death. You're a Fanakin obviously.
@@Prince_the_One it is explained in the video about that. Obvious Mace fanboy.
@@Prince_the_One You should watch the video, as I cover that exact counter point.
Mace won with low diff
@@pedroroque829 lol no he didn’t
Most of those considering ROTS itself including GL's quotes have been debunked on CV by Sav0. Just read Mace Windu is completely overrated (Canon) thread.
I don’t think he debunked anything I said. He just proves that George though Mace could compete with Palpatine. My video also goes over how it’s completely possible that Palpatine legitimately lost the duel, but could have won with his lightning. The ROTS novel Sav0 brings up blatantly says Palpatine was about to beat Mace with his lightning before he pretended to give up.
I'm not really convinced that Palpatine won the fight or that he even threw it. Mace Windu seems to be dramatically underrated and in recent years, people really only chalk him up to 'the Vaapad guy' or 'he specializes in fighting the dark side' which is probably an even worse understanding of Mace Windu. I think things like powerscaling, Death Battle and anime has turned some people's brains to mush because Star Wars hasn't ever really been known for all the big flashy attacks and who beats who in a hypothetical. I'm not accusing you of any of this, but it's stuff I've noticed in the fandom. This is one of the more tame theories I've seen even if I don't agree and this makes far more sense than something like Dooku secretly being the good guy,
I think Mace Windu won fair and square. I think Mace Windu winning keeps inline with the tragic nature of Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, the Order's fall and Palpatine's ascension. As a Jedi, the only person in the Order who really compares to him is Yoda. Prior to the Clone Wars, Mace and Yoda led the order. Mace basically stepped down so he could do more in the field and so that the Jedi leadership can have a single voice. His skills are damn near unmatched and I think the fact that he and a small group of Jedi managed to create a lightsaber form that ended up becoming so dangerous it became forbidden is a testament to his skill and wisdom. Sidious isn't a slouch either and I know some people like to pain him like he's terrible with a lightsaber, but that's far from the truth. Mace even had Sidious scurrying like a rat in private and I'm not convinced he's acting like that. There was even a moment where Mace Windu could've executed him instead of talking -- in front of Anakin or in private. Knowing how capable, intelligent and even his status in Star Wars, it just makes less and less sense that Palpatine threw the fight. Even with the nature of the series, how tragic and dramatic it is. Palpatine throwing the fight kind of undermines it and makes lot less sense in my eyes.
Then there's the George Lucas statement, but I don't really listen to him anyway.
I respect your take on this. Honest question, did you watch the video?
well, Lucas said Windu beat him fair and square
Watch the beginning of the video, I go over that.
@@weeaboo-warrior alright👍
@@weeaboo-warrior he wanted Anakin to turn to the dark side if Anakin didn't help he died
mace did legitimately beat sidious this is a fact
@@kristianschuff1723 you didn’t provide any arguments, you just made claims.
@@weeaboo-warrior what argument could I make better than Lucas' own words.
Jurassic t🦖
Na windu won it 😂, he had no reason to throw the fight. He actually have no real use for anakin anymore so why would he risk it all when he already got the use out of anakin
The point of throwing the fight was so Anakin would join him. He didn’t need Anakin, but he wanted him. He did not risk his own life, because he is so strong he could have beaten Mace even without his lightsaber.
@@weeaboo-warrior I mean that just isn’t true is it 😂, there was no guarantee that anakin would step in and there was no guarantee that mace would even attempt to kill him. It just doesn’t make sense for palp to risk absolutely everything when he already won and for the absolute most part had anakin already. Palp just lost the fight and I know you made an entire video explaining and countering this fact but at the end of the day George admitted that mace lost 😂. How can you sit there and try to say that the guy who wrote the story is wrong
@@MrMonkey2150 George didn’t say Palpatine lost, I go over that in the video. The guy who choreographed the fight blatantly said Palpatine threw the fight. As I said, Palpatine wasn’t in danger after he lost. If Anakin didn’t help him he would have just started shooting lightning again.
@@weeaboo-warrior George said himself mace won, regardless of the choreographer the writer himself said mace won.
Also palp was in danger, mace was about to kill him, had anakin not stepped in he would have. Palp had no reason to risk it, he just lost. Mace just beat palp since palp wasn’t powerful enough at that point to overpower mace with just force lightning. We saw this a few times where palp was forced to use his lightsabers, that is the only reason he still had them. At this point palp didn’t have full confidence in his power in the force which is why he had his lightsabers, this later changed during the empires rule.
This is the reason why palp tried to run away from yoda, since palp couldn’t fully best yoda in the force alone he didn’t want to risk a fight with yoda but was force to anyway
@@MrMonkey2150 Bruh, I just told you I posted George’s statements in this video and I go over why they don’t say what you claim. Even if Mace did legit win the duel, George said Palpatine was faking weakness. So by George’s own words Palpatine wasn’t in danger, he was faking it.
Palpatine had help from Dooku before Maul's mother had to resort to barriers , then she was eventually killed by General Grievous because she was trying to get her son to safety.
Using anti feats doesn't really help your argument, Mother Talsen ( with her body) was straight up equal to Palpatine until Dooku showed up.
As for ROTS its not clear wether Palpatine threw the fight either , he just gets salty about nearly slipping and Mace is second only to Yoda , so i have no idea why he wouldn't AT LEAST be able to keep up with Force Speed Palpatine.
In terms of Force abilities Palpatine was Stronger but Mace could easily counter , with Vapaad and since hes at the level of someone like Anakin or Yoda in pure force power ( not equal) since hes the second strongest ( besides Anakin) in the Order eith FAR MORE CONTROL.
This is legends, not canon , you won the argument there.
Talzin is stated to be stronger on Dathomir. It also seemed like Palpatine was slowly overcoming Talzin to me before Dooku jumped in.
@@weeaboo-warrior They were still evenly matched and I don't agree with that since she was dead even and holding him off before Dooku jumped in .
@@user-lp8im7ow8s by the way the panels were structured it looked like Palpatine's lightning was overpowering hers, but it's hard to say for certain. I hope one day that arc gets animated.
Palpatine won the lightsaber duel against mother Talzin pretty fast, but was struggling later in their magic vsforce battle. Mace Windu couldn't even defeat her in lightsaber combat.
@@monatry5533 CW isn't Canon to Legends since it conflicts with a lot of things
windu fan here
I can’t expect this I’m trying to grasp at straws here so let me try one thing you said about windu is when he was fighting prosse dibs who termed into the 10th guy and windu was having trouble with him I think he could have been conflicted because he was one’s a Jedi so that would put him over prosse dibs. another thing I got to bring up is vapod to my understated mace created that from. the 7th form and uses the dark side to make him stronger and no other Jedi can do that except for the one mace trained so that would mean he’s at least more knowledgeable and skilled at ushering a lightsaber then most Jedi. he was also vary respected by the Jedi and sith with him being one of the people on the Council witch doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be powerful to be on there just have to train someone to be a Jedi knight I do think that after order 66 palpatin is stronger then mace because we see him fighting yoda and doing good against him and . I don’t got much but I love my man mace sorry if I’m bias witch I think I am but I still got some points
I agree, I don't think he was going all out on the 10th brother guy either. Mace is definitely a beast, he is Dooku level at the very least.
@@weeaboo-warrior ya I was going to say mace was the dooku of the Jedi but that was going to be a bit counter intuitive to my point
Mace Windu Is Stronger Than Palpatine
@@Cademan2005 like I said mace is hard to scale there are many statements saying he’s vary respected with the sith and the Jedi but there are also things like him having trouble with some unnamed alien in the clone wars but with mace one thing that is clear is he is definitely more powerful then the Jedi he brought to help him defeat palpatine because he did a lot better then them and debatable won to me I actually do think he won because for palpatine to take that much of a risk for Anikan to save him I don’t think that’s in character for him because we see he never takes risks and he’s vary smart I also want to bring up vapod again this man made a different form and only him and his student can use for actual scaling there’s not much I can go on except we know there both light speed or possible higher for me most likely with ap I have no idea because we just didn’t see a lot form mace well palpatine we saw if you want to take to movies one of the best force lighting feats form palpatine same goes for hax and I think blaster shots have been stated not to be light so I used the force lighting instead
Going by the Novel i always was Under the Assumption that Mace Bested Palpatine in Lightsaber Combat because he was amped with Anakin's Fear, but i also think Going by the New Canon it might have not been Necessary(But that's how he did overpower)
Palpatine is still Overall Stronger then Mace however Since Palps Force Lightning is too Much. I Never saw Palps as an God Tier Lightsaber User anyways i always saw Tyranus, Yoda and Mace being the Top Lightsaber Combatants but at the end of the day the Force trumps all and no out of these3 Except Yoda is even close to Order 66 Palps Force Power
Mace is stronger than Palpatine
@hollyrobertson5229 Not in the Force
Lol this is straight up inaccurate George Lucas himself and the novelisation clearly states when windu disarmed palpatine it was legit.
Palpatine was truly begging for his life when he said to windu “please don’t!!!”
I literally go over both of those things. Even if you want to argue those things as true, Palpatine begging “please don’t” was clearly acting. George Lucas even blatantly confirmed Palpatine faked that part. And sorry to say this, but you can’t really pick up on social cues if you can’t tell Palpatine was overacting and pretending in that scene.
@@weeaboo-warrior that’s garbage mate I’ve read the books for f sake
Palpatine lost. He thought he misjudged the situation. Subtle clue are one thing but words written on paper and words told by Lucas himself to a crowd at comic con which I was a part of mate
Someone asked him point blank did windu win. And George confirms the only reason sidious survived the fight was cause anakin changed his mind
Palpatine could not see into the future cause windu blocked it.
I’ll take George Lucas’s word over yours mate
Windu won the duel. And sidious was afraid. CANON
@@Bilski86 I literally post the scans from the novel in the very video…. The words from the novel>>>>your memory. The narrator and Mace himself both confirm Palpatine is beyond vaapad. Mace was about to be overpowered by the lightning before Palpatine purposely gave up. George’s own words said Palpatine was faking it, so clearly you don’t take George’s words over your own head canon.
BILSKI86, you need to look up the videos that Lucas clearly says that in the beginning of the his script he did have Mace winning the duel, but he changed that because that really didn't make any sense. Palpatine needed to win the duel so he could set anakin up to turn on Mace. I just don't understand how people are still arguing that Mace won
People, if Mace had won Palpatine would be dead by the time anakon arrived. This is all backed by Lucas, the man that choreographed the entire duel from start to finish and non other than Ian McDiarmid. In a interview of " The Emperor" he says that yes there had been some talk by Lucas about Mace winning, but in the end it made more sense that The Chancellor won the fight then pretended he had lost once anakin ran into the office. This is all backed by those who wrote it, choreographed it and the actor that played it. Mace lost. Period.
@Bilski86 you are just so wrong. I don't know what younwatched, but Lucas, the choreographer of the fight and Ian McDiarmid all said Palpatine won. I don't get why you are still arguing the point. I posted all of this, interviews and all somewhere here on this thread.
That's a W, my guy. Take this windu fanboys or prequels or whatever this is. A fine addition to my huge arguments and knowledge collection
You would hang Urban Acolytes if you had the Chance.
Windu Won Palpy Lost
last I checked Mace died and Palpatine took over the galaxy. sounds like someone had happen what they wanted and the other didn't.
Y’all are clowns 🤡 George said it himself not me look it up whatever he says is canon
Yoda actually defeated Sidious in the lightsaber duel and disarmed him and was equal in the force duel, so even when palp was amped he still was outmatched by yoda . Palpatine knows how powerful windu is and no way he toy with someone with maces ability’s which are deadly especially vaapad . Sidious was genuinely beaten in the lightsaber duel however he would have won with his force if he kept going and probably would have won high diff . He only suddenly try to stop fighting and fake being weak as soon as anakin showed up , this can clearly be seen by Palpatines reaction as soon as anakin shows up .
I believe that’s stated in the jr. novel, but nothing in the movie indicates that. A deleted scene of the fight actually showed he just put his lightsaber away.
Windu is weak. Palpatine threw the fight.
😂 I wouldn’t call him weak, but weak compared to papa Palps maybe.
I think Palpatine could've mid diffed Windu without the circumstances amping Windu. In that the sabers portion couldve gone either way but Sidious doesn't need his lightsaber to win
Windu couldve killed Palpatine if Anakin sided with him thougn
Windu mid diffed Palpatine
tl;dr
Copium.
I take it you didn’t actually watch the video?
@@weeaboo-warrior i did
@@TFF_Onida what part was copium? the person who literally made the fight said Palpatine threw it.
@@weeaboo-warriorlove how he says Copium yet dosen't refute the Video😭
@@percivalknightoftheflames855 yep. I understand not everyone will agree, but I don’t see how someone can watch this video and take it as copium. My arguments are pretty strong and consistent.
Windu won rather easily, if wasn't for Anakin, Windu would kill Palpatine right there. Mace Windu was the real Chosen One.
I think you need to redefine what easy means
@@weeaboo-warrior Palpatine was on the ground without his lightsaber. That seemed like an easy win.
@@pedroroque829 that doesn’t even make sense, that would just be a win. easy is just how difficult it was to put him into that situation, not the end result itself. An easy win would be beating him in 5 seconds, not losing your entire team and winning after a long fight.