F-22 VS Eurofighter Typhoon - What really happened in these dogfights?
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- čas přidán 15. 12. 2022
- Despite the F-22 Raptor’s reputation as the world’s most capable air superiority fighter, the stealth jet has lost a number of notional dogfights to older and less advanced platforms like the F-16 and even the Navy’s electronic-warfare specialist, the EA-18G Growler over the years. But few exercises have done more damage to the mighty Raptor’s notoriety than a series of dogfights with Germany’s Eurofighter Typhoon that took place just about a decade ago.
These losses may have been notional, but some people clearly took them seriously. So seriously, in fact, that German Eurofighters were spotted wearing F-22 kill markings on their fuselages after telling the press that they had “Raptor salad for lunch.”
Let's talk about what really happened.
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Read more:
The Merge: www.themerge.co/
F-22 Bomber: www.sandboxx.us/blog/how-amer...
F-35 Dogfights: www.sandboxx.us/blog/can-the-...
F-22 Production: www.sandboxx.us/blog/why-cant...
Future of Dogfighting: www.sandboxx.us/blog/are-the-...
Citations:
Aviationist Raptor Kill Markings: theaviationist.com/2012/07/23...
"Raptor Salad": theaviationist.com/2012/07/13...
Red Flag 12-2: theaviationist.com/2012/06/21...
Eurofighter Promotional: www.eurofighter.com/advantage....
MIT Lecture: • Special Lecture: F-22 ...
F-22 Gun: www.gd-ots.com/armaments/airc...
RAF Typhoon pilot quote: www.businessinsider.com/f-22-...
Eurofighter: megaprojects.net/planes/eurof...
General Jumper Quote: www.af.mil/News/Article-Displ...
German Pilots: www.wired.com/2012/07/f-22-ge...
Eurofighter Test Pilot quote: theaviationist.com/2013/02/21...
Red Flag ABC Coverage: abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...
F-22 "decimated" at BVR: hushkit.net/tag/typhoon/
Eurofighter Data: nationalinterest.org/blog/reb...
Eric Wicklund quote: theaviationgeekclub.com/forme... (Erich Hartmann was a bad guy)
F-22 144 wins at Red Flag: www.flightglobal.com/export-r...
F-22 241 Wins: www.airandspaceforces.com/art....
F-16C downs F-22: www.19fortyfive.com/2021/11/h...
F-22 downs 8 F-15s: theaviationist.com/2014/09/30...
German pilots: defenseissues.wordpress.com/2...
USAF Red Flag Quotes: www.airandspaceforces.com/art....
A-10 Warthog F-22 kill markings: theaviationgeekclub.com/uniqu...
F-22 vs F-15s: www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/produc...
It’s worth mentioning that the Eurofighter Typhoon isn’t just a German aircraft. It was a joint project between Germany, Italy, the UK and Spain
And initially also france, but they quit and made the rafale
So in other words. Just a German Aircraft
C'mon, let's be honest, they're German.
@@roots4x British Rolls Royce engines and British Aerospace build the aircraft in the UK following its development. Airbus (Germany, UK and Spain), MBDA (Weapons British, French and Italian), Leonardo (Avionics UK) were the other three companies involved. The Germans did and do build their own aircraft at an Airbus factory and the main controlling company is Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH. This is a multinational company that coordinates the design, production and upgrade of the Eurofighter Typhoon in conjunction with BAe Warton in the UK.
If it were a German aircraft, I suspect it would have been called the "Taifun"?
A big failed program ...
If an F22 is ever in a dog fight, then something has gone terribly wrong.
well said
not really it just means the pilot ran out of AIM 120s to sling. The F22 was designed to be a dog fighter. It can get nose on target faster then almost everything out there.
Some times rules of engagement say you have to get a visual on what you going to shoot down. We dont want to accidently splash an airliner or an allied plane. I know theres friend or foe electronics and such but there are some times rules of engagement requireing a visual identification.
@@jamesholden5664 exactly. The F-4 was designed at a time when we thought dog-fighting was a thing of the past. We had developed BVR capabilities and designed the aircraft to be very fast and have a good radar, but that was the extent of its advantages. We lost over a hundred of them due to the need to get visual confirmation to ID target aircraft, then them being easily out-maneuvered and gunned down. That lesson was learned, and no fighter has been designed since without any ability to dog-fight (although we've started steering away from dog-fighting capabilities again with the F-35, but not to the same extreme). And yeah, take off the fuel tanks and strap even 4 missiles on the Eurofighter and, as capable as it is, it's not coming out on top in a 1v1 against a Raptor. That's all without the consideration that if the Typhoon pilot didn't have the advantage of knowing where the Raptor would be when the engagement began, the Raptor would most likely take the Typhoon's 6 before the Typhoon pilot knew it was there
@@jayscott8583except a typhoon ;)
The best thing about those planes is that they fly side by side. Both are extremely capable for what they are intended to do. I’m happy that we have such a great jet in the typhoon, but I’m also happy that it’s our ally whose got the F22
Muricans claiming "best in world" once again.. 😂 Murica is not the world, the best in EVERYTHING from planes, trains, performance cars, trucks, tractors, motorbikes, boats, yachts, race cars... All come from western Europe..
The f-22 is absolutely the best of the 2. If it were a real world fight with no “special” rules the typhoon would have been destroyed before they ever knew the F-22 was there and every Typhoon pilot out there would choose the F-22 if given the choice between the two in a real world life or death scenario. With that being said, I absolutely LOVE the Typhoon, it’s one of the best, an incredible fighter and bad ass looking to, one of the best and one of my favorites of all time. BUT, it is not better than the Raptor.
Are the simulators hook up to the internet? They should totally make it into a video game..but in a simulators..
amen!
@alang6238 european cope
The Typhoon may be the most underrated Airplane of our time! It's a beast.
I PERSONALLY ALWAYS SAW THE TYPHOON AS AN AIRCRAFT OF ANOTHER COUNTRY (OUTSIDE THE U.S.) AS WELL AS AN OLDER LOWER GENERATION AIRCRAFT..BUT THAT'S JUST ME/MY THOUGHTS IS ALL🤔🤷♂️🤨HMM..!!??
I think, those people inside Air Forces aren't underestimating the Typhoon. Among enthusiasts and people spitting comments on the internet? It is my perception, that most people support the planes of their home countries or regions, and there are many more fighter enthusiasts from the US, Russia and India then from Europe. Therefore the Typhoon has less support in the comment sections. But that doesn't mean, an actual fighter pilot, lest alone somebody being in charge of air force strategies, underestimates it.
The Typhoon scoring wins over the Raptor also means that the Air Force brass has more leverage to say, "Yes, Senator. We do need the funding this new 7th generation of stealth fighter."
I seriously didn't think of that. Interesting, and logical, angle.
Huh. Smart move from the air force to maintain, and continue to expand their technological edge if that's how they sell it.
You mean 6th gen
@@trumptookthevaccine1679 6th gen is already funded and in development ;) I was wondering if someone would mention that.
@@VvImpalervV it’s not funded until it’s in production
Whenever I hear hat a plane lost with drop tanks on all I think of is “Well there’s your problem.”
Such a silly goose eating before its flight.
Well thats not really the same as when the aircraft is required to have them on. Real world, those tanks aren't there.
@@davidcole333 depends on the circumstances.... if you need the fuel to get home,.. you can't drop them.
What i ask myself: why would it have to carry them over a test area anyway? No airbase nearby? As soon as you know you are engaged, you are supposed to drop them, and either engage, or fly home.
@@davidcole333 Real world is a bit bigger than a training area. Those drop tanks are there, if you have to venture ahead. But they are called drop tanks, because you are supposed to drop them, when engaged.
I remember hearing for years how the F-16 "destroyed" the brand new F-35 in 1v1 dogfights. Come to find out years later that the F-35 was one of the prototype models that was missing virtually everything that makes it lethal, and on top of that the rules of engagement prohibited the F-35 from using a lot of what it did have available. It reminded me of children arguing over who's father would win in a fight based on how much dad claimed he could bench-press!
F-35 is not a good dogfighter and probably F-16 is better. The F35 is 30% heavier than when designed and now it has an only average thrust to weight ratio.
@@ElArcano79 It doesn't need to be.. The F-35 pilot can see through their entire aircraft 360 degrees and achieve a "lock" on the enemy just by looking at them with its Tactical HUD Helmet - but the other guy has to maneuver and point their nose at you to do the same. It's really not even a fair fight tbh. The F-35 has a 20 - 30+ to 1 kill ratio in fly-offs conducted by our Allies, hints why every single one of them have purchased whole fleets of them to replace whatever they had or currently have. Btw, the Helmet wasn't used for whatever reason in the first fly-off I mentioned with the F-16.
@@jamesinson3488 with hmd f35 can see and lock a target but aim9x can't be fired to a rear target. You still need to turn... less, but you still need it. The aim9x is an "over the shoulder" missile, yes but... f16 can also carry it and it has an hmd to lock, like the f18, the f22... the eurofighter to shoot the asraam or iris-t, the Rafale to shoot the magic, the su35, mig35 or su57 to shoot the Archer...
@@ElArcano79 That particular F-16 helmet was still under development at that time, and even if it was equipped with it - it's still not nearly as sophisticated, powerful or fast as the F35's gen 3 helmet combined with the F-35 itself (none are as of today). There's a good reason why so many nations are switching to the F35, and believe me - it's not bcuz it can't fight
@@jamesinson3488 f16 helmet under development is a new helmet, but with the current one it can lock a target out of the hud. The f35 helmet can "see throught the plane" and it's great... for AG missions. The fact is nowadays the f16 can use its hmd to fire an aim9x at his 9 and the f35 can do the same... but it can't fire at its 6. It's not a helmet limitation, it's a weapon limitation.
In this video you give a very rounded analysis and don't downplay either aircraft or their achievements. Thank you.
It's also refreshing to see quotes in a video that actually come from people with relevant knowledge and experience of the topic being discussed. I particularly like the "if we don't lose sometimes we're not training to our limits" quite.
Yeah I hate these half truths though.
It is like saying, "Yeah I beat Mike Tyson in a fight. He couldn't use his arms... Oh and I had brass knuckles but it was just one that weighed 1 pound with no spikes.
Dog fighting is dead for 99% of the majority. At first I thought the issues in Vietnam were down to missiles not being advanced and failing which did happen - yet I guess it was actually more to do with the fact that they had to make visual confirmation before engaging leaving all advantages out the window to a more nimble jet.
Anyway I hope the war in Ukraine is shows people all targets are vulnerable. Nothing is invincible and history shows that.
@@dianapennepacker6854"Dog fighting is dead for 99% of the majority."
Most fighters in Ukraine are taken down by surface based air defence. So neither dog fighting, nor BVR are that relevant.
With current fighters' abilities to avoid missiles, I wouldn't be surprised, if dog fighting had a comeback, once gen 4+ / gen 5 fighters engage in an actual conflict. Can't hurt to train it at least.
All I needed to hear was "with external fuel tanks"
@D if you are in the raptor with external fuel tanks you are wasting billions of dollars into the development of it being a stealth aircraft and losing your overwhelming advantage. Also, a stealth aircraft does not have to use tons of fuel with afterburner on defending missiles and bleed their energy, all it has to do is sit up there and lob missiles. So, it does not require as much fuel to complete a mission.
More than anything else, these dogfighting scenarios are about learning, and you learn a whole lot more from losses than you ever will from a lopsided win. That's why pilots and planes are put in a less than favorable position - to learn. Frankly, I'd be more concerned if we were told the F-22 never lost an exercise because it would lead me to believe we aren't training as comprehensively as we should.
I haven’t thought of it like that. However, makes loads of sense. Learn to win through struggle.
exactly, a lot of people who don't understand this will look at exercises and then say the loser is bad. In most exercises, the US will put one side at a horrible disadvantage. It's the same with how airline pilots or people going into space learn. They don't learn in a simulator where nothing goes wrong, they learn in a simulator where everything possible goes wrong, because that's how you train. You don't learn your weaknesses from stomping on people. And if you don't know your weaknesses, or how to fight when at a disadvantage, you don't know your potential. As Sun Tzu said, “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
@@moonasha Correct. And in every exercise, the Americans tend to make their own side weaker to learn how to counter things when they are at a disadvantage in real war. People forget that in Vietnam in the early days, the Migs were on top. But the Americans learnt and then smashed the Migs.
BINGO. That's like expecting not to disagree with intelligent people. It should happen. Not sure how often but it should.
Russian military exercises are heavily scripted so that the leadership gets to see the results they want. This leads to overconfidence and an inability to learn new tactics. We can see how that is working out for them.
It's irrelevant even if the Eurofighter won all dogfights, these exercises are not intended to find the best plane but to learn about their capabilities and limitations, for future jet fighter developments and for the planning of joint operations. These two fighters aren't expected to fight each other, but it will be very valuable to know how to best combine them.
"It's irrelevant even if the Eurofighter won all dogfights" With this sentence you baptised your opinions as irrelevant in saecula saeculorum
Exactly. The F22 was very deliberately hobbled for the exercise so that they could figure out exactly what it could and couldn't do under those very specific conditions
@@vincemicron Agree
Agree
@@vincemicronI really wish this point was hammered home when the military sent out this info, too many people are under the impression the f22 would be defeated in a real combat role
I love how you literally didn't take a side on this. You were very objective and it really explained why this is really important to understand that nothing is as simple as we want, even with our bias rooting for our favorite fighter.
the hell he was objective
@@mikebeacom5588 nuh uh, he was
You are joking. It was very smooth American propaganda. Notice the stars and stripes flying at the end.
Bruh so many people not realizing how much of a difference maneuverability is with fuel tanks on
Not to mention stealthiness lost...
guilty as charged on both accounts... plus acceleration loss, added weight to lower T/W, and likely a slew of other things
Correct! So why weren't they dropped?
@@stevesangster626 Sometimes you want to test things under all conceivable conditions
No fighter fights with the fuel tanks still on, they all drop tanks when they engage in a dog fight. So out of the gate the fight is unrealistic, it also wouldn’t have them on in any area it expected to encounter an enemy fighter or SAM threat, so to then have the typhoon clean on top of it, and start from a merge is basically tying the F22’s hands behind its back. Annnnnd it still won the vast majority of the engagements. Human error is likely the only reason any typhoon pilots got any “kills” and that required the F22 to be handicapped as hell.
You could also argue, they didn’t want to fully advertise the aircraft and pilots capabilities. So all that’s known is, this is not its limit, not even close and it’s still kicked butt.
The biggest weakness of the F-22 is that they only built 187 of them.
we’re lucky that number isn’t split amongst 20 other nations
Blame that on Robert Gates. Air Force doctrine of fighting two near-simultaneous wars required several hundred airframes. The USAF asked for 381 airframes, while Gates limited the buy to 183. Dyslexia perhaps, but the second biggest weakness is the USAF did not purchase tooling that would have permitted restart of the production line. Budgeting officials clearly do not understand that cost is spread over the total number of airframes. Fewer airframes mean higher unit cost. The first Model-T cost a million dollars.
@@tango_uniform Perhaps they knew that more advanced design and manufacturing technologies would allow even the Raptor to be replaced in a much shorter timeframe than the Raptor was able to advance past the F15. The NGAD program already has a prototype that's taken flight meaning the USAF is already well on its way to having a 6th gen fighter.
@@JS_360NC The Germans alone have 181 eurofighters, the Brits have 160. Not like the europeans are flying huge air wings.
The Russians who you guys are REALLY worried about I hear have only a handful of SU-57... Considering those eurofighters are likely to be your wingmen. Air dominance isn't an issue. Now the Russian mobile surface to air systems. They be the problem.
That’s 187 more than any other country though.
Thanks for a comprehensive and totally objective and non biased viewpoint.
Kudos. One of the best, most fair comparisons I've seen both about the aircraft themselves, and the Red Flag training flights. I've seen a couple of your videos before, but this one earned a subscribe. 🙂
The thrust vector is nice for fun airshow demos, but the reason for the F-22's vectoring is to allow pitch change without the use of the elevators: thus keeping the stealth radar avoiding profile.
Also, apparently they were designed in to meet a requirement of the Advanced Tactical Fighter spec, to take off on short runways. Someone who'd worked on it commented under a video, it might have been the MIT lecture, that it can be used during short takeoff to first tilt the nose up at moderate runway speeds, then used (pointing down) to help loft the rear of the aircraft up off the ground sooner.
Could it not also be used to bring your nose around faster in a dogfight? Allowing you to get a lock on faster?
@@McGriddy51095 yes, theoretically, but the pilot types keep telling me/us that if you do that *and you miss*, you're in *very* bad shape because you just bled off all your energy!
@@Ariccio123 Typhoon goes from standstill to vertical in 6 seconds. One of, if not the fastest acceltating plane for getting in the air during a scramble.
@@Ariccio123 czcams.com/video/rxMpVRdAUpY/video.html
Let them have their fun. We all know which plane those pilots would prefer to be in, in real life.
pretty much this
You are so right! Of course they would choose the Eurofighter 😇
@@holgermuller3597😂😂😂 cuck
Terrific piece Alex. Always looking forward to your insights. Keep them coming. Nice takedown.
I just saw you on cnbc, good work brotha, love every one of yours vids it’s good to see you doing well brotha
All I had to hear was “with external fuel tanks” and I laughed “
Ya as soon as I heard that I knew what the problem was, but I was more shocked to hear the Typhoon DIDNT have any external tanks. Like it wasn’t even close to a level playing field and the Raptor still won the majority of engagement
@D
To be fair, the raptors empty weight is similar to the typhoons mission weight and thus, it has 70,000lbs of thrust vs the typhoons 40,000lbs...but yes, lighter is better for performance.
Look up " We are Openly Trying to Oppress China " on Yt.
Insightful and sad at the same time....
@@cosmoray9750 ah yes, trying to oppress china, poor china who does slave labor, genocide, harassment of smaller countries for their maritime exclusive economic zones, bullying other countries some more...
@Cosmo Ray Are you not familiar with the situation in Hong Kong and Taiwan? They just want to be left alone. China is the AGGRESSOR.
FYI, that MIT lecture is absolutely top notch, and I'd recommend 100%. I've watched several times over the years.
Thanks for this great report. Good explanation and very reasonable consideration. Thanks from Germany!
Excellent video, well constructed presentation. Subbed
Excellent, fair and very thorough comparisons. But as the British commander said about the Challenger tank during Operation Desert Storm, “our tank was designed to win battles in a war situation, not competitions”. They destroyed over 350 Iraqi tanks for no combat losses.
Vous devez de toute urgence vérifier vos SOURCES!! PLEASE🐧
@@marc9080 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_1
Wikipedia states ‘300’ Iraqi tanks but another documentary CZcams video quoted a British tank commander stating “over 350” Iraqi tanks (in the dark, through smoke screens, etc.) Hence the expression ’the fog of war’. Wiki is highly useful as a general source of information but is not infallible.
Wiki extract from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger :
‘In action, the Global Positioning System (GPS) and Thermal Observation and Gunnery System (TOGS) fitted to the Challengers proved to be decisive, allowing attacks to be made at night, in poor visibility and through smoke screens.[14] In total, British Challengers destroyed roughly 300 Iraqi tanks without suffering a single loss in combat.[11] Patrick Cordingley, the commander of 7th Armoured Brigade, said afterwards that "Challenger is a tank built for combat and not competitions."[15]
Meanwhile in the biggest tank battle in history 100 Iraqi tanks went up against 100 Abrams one hour later 100 Abrams tank crews return to base to have steaks and beer. the 100 Iraqi tank crews…well their guys would’ve been happy just For a drink of water.
If I get your meaning, you are saying the Raptor is like the Challenger in your analogy?
It can’t be overstated how big a disadvantage the wing tanks were on the F22.
In ACM weight (and drag) is death.
Even without wing tanks, internal fuel load is a huge factor.
Entering real combat the Raptors would have dropped the tanks. It was an unrealistic engagement.
The F-22 would never enter a dogfight unless it was for a suicide mission.
More bad excuses !!
@@orlock20 What the hell does that mean?
@@MikiLund The laws of physics is a bad excuse?
@@RAF71chingachgook Stealth works at range. Entering a dogfight gives up the whole reason for stealth. Not only that, the only reason a F-22 would get into a dogfight is to use its gun. With current vector thrust missiles, the F-22 could fly straight and attack the enemy from 45 degrees off bore sight.
Just another Excellent addition to Alex’s body of work. Thanks
Both aircraft are absolutely exceptional but both have their own qualities and flaws. The good thing is that both aircraft are on the same side and can cover each others failings to make up a highly capable combined force. No aircraft is perfect and flawless.
Excellent and balanced reasons explaining those training missions and why they are designed the way they are.
Alex, your videos are so well done. Thank you and keep them coming.
Very well put together video. Well thought out.
Dude! Very Kool and informative video! U Rock!🤘🤘🤘 happy holidays!
Don’t forget the OODA loop! Pilots who are well experienced in their own aircraft can often create and exploit advantages over pilots in more advanced aircraft.
For example, in the early 1970s experienced Marine Corps pilots flying older F-4 Phantoms regularly beat Air Force pilots who were just learning their brand new F-15s.
It's how an A-10 driver got a Raptor kill.
His squadron noticed a pattern in the F-22's fight.
So they sent an lone A-10 out and he flew in the radar shadow of a C-130.
The F-22's seeing the intruding C-130, ignored it while they continued killing F-16's and F-15's.
At some point one F-22 went low to make another kill and soon the Raptor pilot heard "Guns, Guns, Guns on F-22" and looked around to see a lone A-10.
@@pogo1140 Sneaky little piggy... 😁
Good training for the Raptors! Falling into a pattern during combat is a good way to die.
@@pogo1140 That's a good example of how useful these simulated air fights are. There's a reason the US airforce trains so many more hours than other airforces. Those A-10 guys deserved to put that Raptor symbol on their plane, for their cunning and preparation. The F22 pilot would probably have had to deal with plenty of jokes at their expense getting shot down by a lowly warthog, but they'd learn a lot about the overconfidence that may come from riding such a proficient aircraft and the dangers of making assumptions about what that radar signal may be hiding.
@@journeyman2682 .And i quote .."There's a reason the US airforce trains so many more hours than other airforces."..Do you know that Raptor is quite a familiar scene to the RMAF (Royal Malaysia Air Force) ,USAF train many times with our boys of RMAF, our SU-30MKMs happen to be the USAF favourite. I am sure RMAF are benefiting alot from the training with USAF.
@@luriakhsimahk4506 I didn't know. They must value the chance to get to know the SU-30 characteristics because they don't have many Raptors so they likely want to maximise the value from training. I loved my time in Malaysia, am now quite envious of the US pilots!
Saw you on CNBC earlier today about the B-21! Great work!
Thanks. This sheds light on what really went on.
Wow what a great video! Alex you are amazing.
Man, your videos have been excellent lately. Keep it up, I'm loving this stuff!
F-22 also probably had their radar reflectors mounted
Luneburge lenses are what they are called, but yes.
The UK runs their F-35Bs WITHOUT the Luneburg lenes which the US say are required to ensure air safety in peace time (ie to make the plane non-stealth) - interestingly RAF pilots have managed to track British F-35Bs (which are more stealthy than F-22) at nearly 90 miles from the cockpits of their Typhoons (obviously this is very biased by aspect) The reality is RADAR technology (particularly RADAR return processing) has essentially defeated so-called stealth. "Stealth" under-performing isn't news to the British - British Type 42 destroyers were tracking F-117As in the Gulf at 140 miles after bored RADAR engineers decided to tune the (ancient analogue 1022L) RADAR parameters to optimise for F-117s to keep themselves amused - until the USAF told them to cut it out as the wailing RWRs were terrifying their pilots! That should have killed the stealth programme there an then - but there was too much money involved and the incident quickly hushed - and that was before DSP advancements caused a giant leap in RADAR return processing. Given all of the above I suspect Luneburg lenes are a way of the US hiding LACK of stealth rather than a safety aid - and they do prevent accurate profiles being built of returns which I guess could be useful. Incidentally the current British Type 45 Destroyers can track the F-35Bs (at altitude) up to their normal full range, 300+ miles. While reducing RCS is always useful, it's no longer worth compromising an aircraft over - or making it prohibitively expensive to maintain. The west should concentrate on better weapons and drones - stealth aircraft are a dead-end folly.
@@LondonSteveLee Source - Trust me bro
Who doesn't love a good, friendly rivalry? The reality is that these two insanely dominant aircraft will be flying TOGETHER and combining their best features to ensure a win for the coalition.
What a great video! Thanks for the information
I have watched three different videos where the F22 has gone up against other fighters. Not once has it been allowed to use everything it has against the other fighters. They are ALWAYS adding or taking away things that hurts its performance. Also, in every instance the Raptor still had the majority of kills despite the handicap.
In realistic scenarios, the wins in the Raptor are boring BVR AMRAAM kills. Not very sexy but certainly very effective. All of these "what if" scenarios are to let other airforces feel good about themselves.
Granted I still think the Eurofighter is a little sexier, I would always choose to go to war in the F22.
@@phoenixrising4073 War is a gamble. And a good gambler never shows his cards till the end.
@@phoenixrising4073 BVR multi targeting. Even the F-14 could target eight aircraft at once BVR. A F-22 pilot could be an ace from one BVR 1G missile dump.
I believe one the problems the F-22 has, as said by a commander (I forgot his name) is that it is so good, it compensates for tactical error. Like, the problem that they have with the F-22 is literally because it is so good, they don't know if the tactics they are employing are actually good tactics or bad ones, because the F-22 would overcompensate for it. And the reason why that's important because of the nature of the F-22, it can do things conventional 4th gen aircrafts can't, and because of that, it goes against traditional air combat tactics. What might seem like a suicidal mission for most aircrafts, is doable for a F-22.
The simple fact is that the typhoon has a TWR that’s equal to the f22. But the aero design of the typhoon simply allows it to be more manoeuvrable. A delta wing with a forward canards (unlike rafale/gripen) is literally the best layout for ACM combat. The f-22s design with the same TWR just can’t turn as aggressively. It’s just physics. Add on the extremely good HMS that typhoon has and the ACM engagement becomes kinda one sided. If the typhoon had a typical a2a set up and the f22 had the same. Neither with drop tanks. The typhoon would still win more with everything else being equally (pilot, fuel load etc).
A canard we’ll forward on the fuselage is like having a second elevator. The amount of aerodynamic torque you can achieve is greater than any other aircraft out there. So much so it’s actually almost like having TVC
Anything can be beaten. The point is, how much do you have to stack the deck against an F-22 to beat it? If the answer is "Quite a bit", that just proves how dominant the F-22 really is.
copium is strong with this one.
You're expected to be dominant when you cost twice as much as your competitors.
@@EhM-xt7pl well I guess it meets the expectations then
COPING @@octoslut
OF COURSE... and you admited F22 Is two times better than compettitors... simple as that@@EhM-xt7pl
Thanks for clearing this up! I was really shocked about any wins against the Raptor.
only typhoon can exhaust a raptor
@@4_youtube_is_dead Yeah, when the Raptor has to deal with fuel tanks.
@@movingontorealfreedom7305 I don´t wonder any longer that NASA is searching in outer space for intelligent life
Very interesting and informative video. Please do more videos like this. 👍
From Hartmann’s wikipedia page:
During the course of his career, Hartmann was forced to crash-land his fighter 16 times due either to mechanical failure or damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had shot down; he was never shot down by direct enemy action.[3]
That is EXACTLY what I said! You beat me to it.
Not sure how much I would trust Wiki or over hyped fighters. There is a great advantage to claiming you have a dominate fighter who never loses. Look how many times Ukraine has made up stories to inspire recruits and drive fear into Russian soldiers.
@@skylanh4319I know how you feel. However, that information is accurate. Erich Hartmann is a legend in a league of his own.
Curious, I never heard Hartmann's name before.
He shot down more planes than there exist F-22.
In WWII, Hartman shot down 352 planes. There where 15 German pilotes shooting down more than 200 planes, and more than 100 German pilots shooting down more than 100 planes.
The most scoring non-German pilot was Finnish Ilmari Juutilainen (94 hits).
The most scoring Japanese Pilot was Tetsuzō Iwamoto (87 hits)
The most scoring US pilot was Richard I. Bong (40 hits).
How come? What is the reason for that disproportion?
And no, "the Germans where the best pilots" surely is not, so leave it.
@@miramallo30 because germany was attacked by many nations in ww2 so many planes to shoot down
As a Typhoon enthusiast, I do agree with pretty much everything in this video. Both jets do exactly what they need to do
It’s a stupid exercise. If it were a real battle it would be over before they had any visuals
@@mrorange3490 I never said that it wasn’t
@@maxtube444 word life. My apologies homie
@@mrorange3490 It’s alright
Awesome and informative video, thanks for that
This has got to be one of the most unbiased and objective videos I've seen on this exact topic. No Raptor bashing or Typhoon Bashing. Just a clear objective chat. Top marks!
Its quite interesting, but it is somewhat academic since these aircraft would never face off against one another in a real world scenario since all countries involved are Nato members.
I'd like to see a similar comparison between the Typhoon and the F15-E that we have so many of. Or Typhoon v/s Rafale. I think these are more appropriate head-to-heads. I'd also like to see the comparison between the F-16C and the Swedish Gripen. I think it's always useful to compare apples to apples before comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, This. Honest results/evaluations of the types of aircraft that are likely to fight and, or compete in nations acquiring the aircraft for their defense needs. This story reminds me of India in a flyoff where one type of aircraft was significantly handicapped and some bragging resulted when the predictable results happened. It doesn't help the aircraft evaluation.
Typhoon V F15 E..no contest...Eagle E is a heavyweight fighter, not gonna win a close in dogfight.
F16 v gripen..very close...down to pilot skill
The simple fact is that the typhoon has a TWR that’s equal to the f22. But the aero design of the typhoon simply allows it to be more manoeuvrable. A delta wing with a forward canards (unlike rafale/gripen) is literally the best layout for ACM combat. The f-22s design with the same TWR just can’t turn as aggressively. It’s just physics. Add on the extremely good HMS that typhoon has and the ACM engagement becomes kinda one sided. If the typhoon had a typical a2a set up and the f22 had the same. Neither with drop tanks. The typhoon would still win more with everything else being equally (pilot, fuel load etc).
A canard we’ll forward on the fuselage is like having a second elevator. The amount of aerodynamic torque you can achieve is greater than any other aircraft out there.
@@alfredchurchill2328 Wrong. Typhoons were consistantly beaten by F22 in BFM engagements without external fuel tanks at Red Flag.As the video points out the Typhoon had to fight with NO WEAPONS loaded against the F22 with external tanks to win even a few engagements.
Yeah I'm the same but would also like to see an F14 performance. I hear about how good it is but often wonder how it would stack up against more modern fighters with the same hindering parameters
What this shows to me is two things.
(1) The Typhoon is a competent plane that deserves to still be in service.
(2) The F-22 is a really good plane
If I had a choice between owning either plane I would probably go with the Typhoon because it's a f*cking sex machine. If I had to choose a plane to go to war in it'd be the Raptor.
But F22 never seen real combat
@@mtf_savage_beasts2565 it actually technically has, but ironically it was only air to ground strikes
@@jonathanpfeffer3716 It actually has intercepted other aircraft, but they typically run away in fear (See: The f-22 intercepting f-4s from Iran, with the Iranian pilots running away after the raptor had to physically show itself due to the radar on the ground and onboard the F-4s not showing the F-22s existing.
@@mtf_savage_beasts2565 has eurofighter?
WELL DONE REVIEW OF THE FACTS. Thank you for sharing.
This has probably been mentioned, and it was implied in the video, but this was a training exercise-for our allies as well as for the USAF. And since it’s plausible that Typhoons could face off against Russia’s and/or China’s latest super-maneuverable and lowest obsevability fighters they need to learn what advantages they have and what weaknesses of their opponents they can exploit.
It’s pretty expensive to send a detachment of fighters halfway around the world, it’d be bonkers to think they’d do it if the rules just relegated them to the role of clay pigeons.
Also, it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that if there ever is large scale air to air combat (fervently hope that remains forever hypothetical) these two platforms are going to be teammates and not opponents. Knowing each other’s strengths and weaknesses will always help them be more effective teammates.
Well, you can't stealth the heat signature of so called stealth plane. So really good infrared for detection and missles is probably the way to go.
Russia doesn't have any 5th gen fighters though, most of what they have are 4th gen nothing like the F22
@@petrairene actually you can by dispersing it... UH 60's have a system on it to do just that as does the F22.
I think the main takeaway from the 2012 Red Flag is that fighter pilots have big egos and will always need to brag about their 'kills' if they beat a big dog (even if their team lost 18 other times). ☺
and when they have every advantage compared to the opponent's disadvantage.
I know I would, and I say that as a complete Raptor supporter
Very well put together giving all sides of both planes 👍
I just want to say (just started the video) I love the visual excitement of dog fights, the intensity is incredible. I hope that every nation outside of the United States invests heavily into the research and development of dog fighting fighter jets as their main air superiority aircraft.
I like watching knife fights too, but if given a choice I'd pick a good overwatch position behind a scope mounted to sniper rifle at night
Rafele pilot - "When you get up close to the F22, there is nothing to fear"
It has been reported that F-22 pilots are forbidden from using all the F-22s capabilities in international exercises.
Absolutely true and known, just like with f35 and f22 they put radar reflectors on them when flying 99.99999% of the time to mask the true signature
True
It's absolutely true
Yup I just left this same comment. This is why one of the reports also cautioned about pilots leading bad habits since they are not allowed to use the total systems on f22 in these mock fights with other countries
And it is the same for the others jets/countries.
Good point, that of your aircraft has never lost in an exercise, you aren't pushing it as hard as you need to. You won't find out the weaknesses and find ways to mitigate them. You are less prepared for battle
Thanks for another GREAT video. I'm a big Typhoon fan!
7:14
That shot right there, makes a superb wallpaper 👌
I had the pleasure of speaking with a retired F-22 pilot at the end of last year. One thing he did mention that thrust vectoring was "....a huge advantage in very limited situations and a likely fatal disadvantage in most others" (paraphrasing a bit but that was pretty much the gist of it). Thrust vectoring works well if you have to create a very tight angle for a gun kill (or an IR missile snap shot)....or if you have really, REALLY screwed up and have a bandit close on your tail, and need to force an overshoot. The F-22 is amazing at acceleration throughout the entire flight regime and is better than just about any other aircraft, but even an F-22 can't overcome a low energy state every time. And interestingly, he did say that the way you fight in an F-22 is so different to that of any early plane, he said something I find amazing: that the world still doesn't have that many true 5th generation pilots able to fully exploit what the plane is capable of in every situation.
Flight was only invented a little over a century ago. Of course there aren't many 5th generation pilots.
We saw the same thing with 14,15,16 aircraft. The teen aircraft provided so much capabilities over any contemporary aircraft it required years for the pilots to develop around the new aircraft.
I'd say the lose to the Typhoon 'is' training for 5th generation pilots. They now know what does not work.
So when pilots have discipline and know when to use it it becomes an incredible asset above what’s normally available to a fighter. Pilot training is critical
Probably because it hasn't gone to combat much to test the training under fire and give the pilots a chance to build a ton of quality flying hours and experiene. With all those very modern fighters, in peace times, the pilots get two or three flights of one or two hours a week because the flight hours on these things are so damn expensive. That's not much if you want to become really good at something. A Super Hornet pilot with a ton of combat experience is probably more effective flying the plane to its maximum capability.
Right near the beginning of the video, when it was mentioned that the Raptor still had it's external fuel tanks, I thought: "Oh yeh, this sounds like real combat conditions. NOT". 🤣
There’s something poetic about an A-10 flying over during the phrase “a revolution in air power”
If the F-22 ever has to get into a dogfight, somebody made a critical mistake.
This is similar to the F-35 Fighting against F-16s. The 35 was prototype aircraft without its Stealth coatings and its sensors were software limited. Both aircraft were fighting with one arm and a leg tied behind its back.
.
Going into a dogfight in a stealth aircraft it's basically using a F1 car to run an off-road race. Now, ask Eurofighter pilots how many times Eurofighters have been "killed" by F-22 in Red Flag exercises without them knowing they were being shot at.
Ikr 😂, they got a cheap shot on an artificially crippled raptor and they haven’t let it go since
What I commented was drag racing a fully built twin turbo V8 on autocross tires, you can do it, just don't expect the best times possible. Use it's full potential, throw on slicks. Same with the F22, use it's stealth and hit them before they even know you're there.
@@Kilo-sz4ch we should remind the Germans what the P-51s did to the BF-109s.
The UK runs their F-35Bs WITHOUT the Luneburg lenes which the US say are required to ensure air safety in peace time (ie to make the plane non-stealth) - interestingly RAF pilots have managed to track British F-35Bs (which are more stealthy than F-22) at up to 90 miles from the cockpits of their Typhoons. The reality is RADAR technology (particularly RADAR return processing) has essentially defeated stealth. AMRAAMs PK is terrible over 20 miles - 30 if you're lucky enough to have block D - an F-22 would have to get that close to get a viable shot off against Typhoon (and that's at altitude - it would be far worse low down) - Meteor is massively more capable than AMRAAM with much longer burn times - at 30 miles you'd have little chance of escaping Meteor in open airspace where as AMRAAM is easily defendable at that range - indeed Tranche 3 onwards Typhoon will even tell the pilot where and how to fly to defeat the missile (to bleed it of sufficient energy to render it harmless) things have moved on - and improvements in IRST data processing have also almost doubled its range. In other words, in current spec aircraft, the Typhoon pilot has MORE change of seeing F-22 than the other way round BVR. F-22 has hardly changed since it went into production.
@@LondonSteveLee Watch Red Flag results. There's plenty of videos from the Norwegian Air Force speaking about Eurofighter performance against the F-22/35 tandem. Stealth aircraft basically destroy everyone. So, no. Eurofighters don't beat stealth aircraft on a daily basis. BTW, Eurofighter line of production hasn't rolled out any new airplane since 2015. Yes, there are some new contracts, but none of them have been delivered yet. So the "Tranche 3" Eurofighters basically go back to 2009. Some of them have been able to kill artificially stunted F22? Yes. Look up and compare the tallies. Listen to the pilots.
Great post.
I'm an old ground pounder, but I love knowing those guys are up there, and can keep the monsters at bay
Thanks for explaining the nuances of air combat to your average enthusiasts 👍🏼
One very big takeaway that was not mentioned is that those F-22 pilots were new…
Was hoping to see someone mention that fact
Friend of mine who was an aircraft mechanic / engineer at the german luftwaffe once told me that we (the germans) were actually dominating in a lot of these air-to-air combat scenarios. I was surprised since the perception of our army in the public is not that good. No idea how much truth is to that but I don't think he made that up, since i know him very well.
By the way I am not a Eurofighter fan, but some the words you put in their mouths are actually very accurate. Anti- F-22 media portray this as a combat TEST. It was not a test. It was a one sided exercise for training purposes. Probably to train a worst case scenario where F-22 got attacked just after launch (hence drop tanks) with possible system failures and enemy that hypothetically found a way to detect it.
Kind of like in my AC4FA playthroughs and practice. Deliberately keeping heavy gear attached. Note the how the fight with Glint went. Didn't take long after I unloaded.
So when a Rafale or a Mirage 2000-9 'downed' the F-22, it was a 'one-sided' exercise too, right?
The ability of fanboys to magic excuses is without limit...
Some things are very misunderstood about stealth in general. “Stealth” aircraft cannot be designed invisible to all radar so most, all I know of, are focused on denying the opposition 1 specific thing - A weapons grade lock. As the name implies it’s simply a radar lock, usually from a higher frequency radar on another fighter, that can be used to guide ordinance to the target.
Most ground search radars are large low-frequency units that don’t have trouble detecting and tracking (not locking) stealth aircraft so an aircraft that was data-linked in the area would know about the presence and location of said low observable aircraft there just wouldn’t be much it could do about it.
These scenarios amount to 'could a swordsman kill a sniper'. Sure, if you let him get in close enough. In reality, the question becomes 'how many swordsman do you need to take down a sniper'. And even that is still probably more fair than Raptor vs 4th gen fighters.
Awesome 😎 sandbox. 👍
Great unbiased commentary.
Flawed battle test.
like the test f-35 vs a clean viper
Just a short notice: Seeing these aircrafts flying WITH each other and flying against each other only for training is the best aspect. I have great respect for both fighters and their skillful pilots.
I am looking forward to see American and German jets together again for the upcoming generations as well as a part and proof of our nations friendship.
Indeed. Also worth adding that the Eurofighter Typhoon isn't just a german plane; it was a combined project for Germany, Italy, UK and Spain
Txs for another fantastic video..in case u havnt ,any chance u can make a video rafeal vs typhoon??tx u
I totally agree - being German - with your statements! Just dog-fighting is just one single aspect a fighter has to accomplish. The much more important issue is its capability to work in combination with army and navy in joint activity.
The "Typhoon" was started as a project of France, Italy, Spain and Germany way back in early 80s. France soon stepped back to create their own "Rafale". The intention was to build a European air-supriority-fighter countering the Soviet MIG29s. The later erosion of the Soviets Union required some changes in the eqipment in the developing-process. So it took - together with the European bureaucraty - quite a while to bring this plane to the skies!
It now joins the heavier multi-pupose fighter "Tornado" which is in service for about 42 years. The "Luftwaffe says it still own 93 "Tornados" with 85 in working order (which I personally rather disbelieve).
Funny thing beside: currently Germany is negotiating to acquire a batch of (not F-22) F-35 for the German "Luftwaffe"!
I might be the worlds biggest raptor fan but I loved this video for putting some well needed perspective into the community as a whole. yes the raptor is capable of things once deemed impossible in aviation but no one wins every time. Great great content!
Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. What happened here is that they made the raptor take a knife to a gunfight. It was not realistic at all
I think having a situation where the odds are unfairly snacked against the f22 is really good training for those pilots who could be in a real world situation where the rules aren't fair so it's a great training experience 🤷🏻♂️
Well said and balanced. The important thing is the lessons learnt
7:40 By the way: This gun is a revolver gun. It has the upper hand on the gatling since the gatling needs a specific time for the barrels to spin. The Mauser BK does not need this and brings more mass per second in the first triggerpull than the gatling - which is in the long run less but was all enough for the normal 1 second passing of jets. So the 150 rounds of the BK are as equal in effectiveness as the 480 of the M61.
I'd really like to hear your take on a simulated 5th gen vs 5th gen platform fight. The more I think about it I feel like it's just going to be two planes looking for each other for hours and if they ever do find each other they will be to close for BVR so with all this reliance on BVR fights at the end of the day it's just going to turn in to a dogfight anyway. Seriously thought I'd love to hear your take on it!
Theres only really one 5th gen plane though, the f35. Its gonna take a while for enough to exist that another red flag makes sense
@@boijone8440 f22 in my opinion was the original 5th generation fighter correct me if I'm wrong and actually with many NATO countries purchasing f35s and I'm pretty sure Germany is planning on adding the f35 to their arsenal on top of their euro fighters I could see a new red flag exercise in the near future
The only true 5th gen vs 5th gen fighters that can happen now is between the F-22 and the F-35. The Su57 and the J-20 are not true 5th gen fighters. The Raptors and Lightning II can see them on radar pretty far away and shot them out of the skies without breaking a sweat
The euro fighter I love the design of that jet, and I would love to see it fly. I think what we can truly take away from this is that both fighters are quite a formidable opponent and you wouldn’t want to tangle with them. I do think it is very unusual that they would put external fuel tanks on the raptor though, because the planes like the KC 135, there’s really no need for them. And I just happen to live by one of the top 10 emergency military hubs that Air Force One uses and is also sometimes used for fighter training. And one day around March I think it was of 2021 it was an F 22 that came in and it was having some problems with its avionics so it ran some test by doing a series of touching goes around the airport. There were no external fuel tanks on that thing then. It was fully armed, though you could tell by the engine loading. But it was pretty wild having a raptor flying around my house at a low altitude..
SUBSCRIBED. You seem to know what you're talking about. Interesting channel. Thanks.
I want to know the story of how a Warthog won! Liberally upstairs out laughing when you said that. Love it.
Would love to hear your wrap up of the Pitch Black exercise Australia hosted this year. There’s not heaps of readily available information but would love to know what you can glean. Sounds like the Australian F35s mopped up
@D sweet talking point! Keep spruiking RT.
The only disadvantage for the F-22 was having its external fuel tanks.
That's a weird choice, almost hard to believe. But let's assume it's true.
Dogfights are still likely to happen in real conflicts. And F-22 designers knew it very well.
So, simulating a dogfight is NOT a disadvantage for the F-22. It's part of the fighting envelope.
And if, as you mentioned, the Eurofighter lacked its smart helmet and IR seeker, that was a BIGBIGBIG advantage for the F-22.
The lack of those technologies more than outweighs the external fuel tanks handicap.
All in all, the F-22 is a better weapon.
But in a dogfight i'd rather be in a Eurofighter.
And you would be dead, you are naive if yout think Raptors showed everything they can even to allies. And external tanks are big big big big dissadvantage.
@@stevem2323 Maybe you don't realize how much of an advantage is being able to track the enemy with your helmet.
The enemy aircraft may be way off your nose, but you could still track it and strike it with something like an IRIS-T.
This effectively neutralizes any agility advantage that the F-22 may have, which is the only advantage of the F-22 in a dogfight.
Or do you think the F-22 is some sort of alien spacecraft which can "somehow" survive anything and kill everything?
@@jorehir As far as i know, Raptors helmet at the time wasn't even close to the F 35-one. Also, external tanks are easy spot to see that they deliberately hardened to Raptor those scenarios. I think the point was let's put Raptors pilots through maximally non comfort zone.
Also, let's face it, I'm pretty sure US Air force likes that Raptor has that aura around him or being overhyped and beatable, they ain't gonna export it, so let's make enemies guessing.
@@stevem2323 "As far as i know, Raptors helmet at the time wasn't even close to the F 35-one"
That's what i'm saying.
On the contrary, the Eurofighter is designed to operate with an advanced helmet (although it seems it was not yet implemented back then).
In nominal conditions, the Eurofighter would enjoy such advantage and the F-22 would not.
Also, again in nominal conditions, the Eurofighter would use its IRST. That is capable of detecting a fighter (including stealth fighters) at over 100km. Plenty to keep track of an F-22 during a dogfight.
BTW, the F-22 has no IRST.
@@jorehir Yeah but it was a huge disadvantage for Raptor too to have it, you can't excuse that, with that helmet Raptor would be even more deadly.
I remember reading about those exercise later on, on forums, US pilots dismissed that with laugh, it's pretty clear they were there to maximally test the Raptor, in a real shooting war no one has any real chances against him.
When it is actual combat, not an aerial exercise the F-22 is the worst possible opponent could have to fight.
I love how you threw that Teddy pun !
I'd love to see an F-16 go against one of those Typhoons.
That’s happened - typhoon overall better ..
@@stevetrott1253 The F-16 is a great plane but that Typhoon is no slouch either. A very worthy opponent to say the least. Especially with a pilot that knows what he/she is doing. I don't have anything bad to say about the Typhoon
@@brianfalls5038 I think the edge comes from head mounted site and performance if your talking WVR , if your talking BVR - the typhoon has the meteor missile which is best long range air to missile in the world ..
But they will be supporting each other in the conflict 👍
Can you do a video about all the best 4th gen fighters? There’s a lot of them, I’d like to know “who’s best” F-15, F-16, Typoon, Raffle etc. even Russian and Chinese jets if they are competitive.
Well, the typhoon and rafele are like 4.5+ gen, much newer and superior than the 50-60 year old f15/f16. Of course the SU-series fighters have superior aerodynamic/kinetic performance vs the F15s/F16. So, in a close in, 1 v 1 the old US jets would theoretically lose. But modern air warfare is all about who sees who and shoots first, so AWACS and powerful radar matters most, along with low RCS.
@@ruthnoya8424 I think he is refering to the much more advanced versions of the F-16/F-15, such as the F-16 Block 72 and the F-15EX. (F-15 is still one of the only aircraft in history to not be shot down by another aicraft in combat)
This is aviation journalism at the highest level.
As an German i heard the first time of Erich Hartmann😮Thank's for that video!
Excellent deep analysis. Difference in gear is actually needed on the battlefield. Like chess.
just glad we’re on the same team, healthy competition however leads to great innovation
Nothing is invincible. Gotta find the limits to push them. But I think we know if the odds were all even or unknown, few people would choose to be in a Eurofighter over the F-22. The Eurofighter is still an incredible jet and way more affordable.
In international exercises F-22A, F-35ABC's have reduced radar capabilities, reduced G limits and increased radar signature.