I must say. This was an absolute clinic on how to play a summoner. From the perfectly timed utility summons to the combat prowess. Chris played an optimized character at full capacity. Using limited resources in class abilities at the perfect times. Very well done sir.
@@VvDOPAMEANvV I think the most impressive was that he always had something to do and actually did it. A lot of players look at sun classes and go “oh that’s so strong and op” but then in play a lot of them forget to use abilities or use them at bad times. Or just don’t cast the right spell at the right time. He always knew what to do next. Playing an optimized character optimally is much harder than it sounds.
@@Trial88 It's inspired the hell out of me. I totally rerolled a couple of my favorite chars last week just to edge out initiative and have options for each portion of combat. I think Colby got whipped over action economy. I'm happy he got to do his thing, but he's screwed on the open battlefield and/or doomed to counter whoever beats him at initiative. He has a dangerous character, and I'd focus him down given the option.
Love the bit at the end where you were all complimenting each other. Props to you for pointing out that Colby initiated this and for thanking the Dudes for the obvious hand-up. Everyone here came across as so gracious and kind. I really hope you all can do this again.
they said that 1) druid is a weak caster. 2) silvery barbs must be banned. 3) summoners always make combat. encounters take forever Thanks again the three channels for the show
I really love the tone and rapport of this one-shot. The over-produced and dramatically performed big streamed campaigns just feel off to me and I haven't gotten into any of them, whereas this casual but enthusiastic collab feels like the D&D I've experienced and it's really heartwarming and comforting.
The best part of these videos is reading your analysis. Seeing you admit when you made a mistake, or that you made a sub-optimal choice. It’s reassuring seeing that even some of our idols in the community are capable of mistakes.
Honestly I'd take Dispel Magic over Counterspell. The worse spell effects are those that persist, so either Dispel or Counterspell works and Dispel lets you choose to use after you know it is a problem and gives you multiple tries to get rid of it, whereas Counterspell is one chance and that's it. Plus Dispel has far larger range and is much more difficult to counter than Counterspell.
@@M0ebius the dm ruling that the drow was its own ally was the only real hinky part of that Granted, there was immediate retroaction, however, based on the "ally" ruling, that is also what *should* have happened (almost like when the DM immediately remembers something *after the fact* ) Still, you can certainly take issue with the DM making that ruling in the first place
@@nickdefrancis I tend to agree with you. The dice *facilitate* the story, but it's told through the DM+players-- whether dice are even involved or not (see: a lot of other systems)
Just like episode 1, super fun to rewatch my favorite bits and read the commentary. This was a very fun 1-shot, hope the stars (and schedules) align to allow this group to do it again sometime in the future!
It was amazing how quickly they began to synergize. First fight three individuals, second fight a team, third fight a good team. Please make this a thing.
The gazers vs velociraptors battle was hilarious! Loved it! Also loved the reflection on character and team building at the end. Awesome stuff! I hope the four of you get a chance to play another one shot like this!
@@joshuawinestock9998 With 8 encounters it’s more reasonable to assume 2-3 short rests IMO, unless the encounters are reasonably easy or tightly packed together.
I'd love to see gauntlets like this used to test builds - I wonder how a monk would do. I think against the storm giants it might have done ok, my math shows a ~30% chance to stun per attempt, which would be huge. That's not gonna work against a dragon though :)
I don’t think a monk would do very well in a three man party in a really difficult campaign. Even if you stun, the fact that you don’t do much damage sort of nullifies your contribution. A sorlock for instance can cast Web then Eldritch Blast + Repelling Blast the target into the Web over and over, so you can potentially soft-lock multiple targets continuously while doing damage from distance.
I love how much fun you guys all seemed to be having and how much of a genuine mutually uplifting atmosphere you guys have. Was so much fun to see and loved the game itself as well!
So what did we learn? 1. 3 person party needs to overlap, not specialize. 2. What are the main functions that NEED to be reliably covered with 3 people? Damage, Control, Defense, Stealth and theif duties, Healing and Saving Throw control. 3. Counterspell, I'm sure there were some other basic spells that should have been taken between the Artificer, a Paladin (Sorcerer) and a Druid? 4. Big Wombo Combo's don't happen in a normal game more than once or twice, or the DM will start saying the smarter creatures at higher levels will avoid those combos because they are smart AND experienced. OR, some of those combos are really hard to pull off in open terrain types.
I think the idealized level 13 three man party is probably something like a Hexblade Divine Soul, Hexblade Sorcadin, and a Hexblade SorcBard or Clockwork Soul. It’s kind of the perfect coverage of all the aspects you’d need with built-in synergy and redundency.
A three person party can't afford to overlap too much since even disjointly they will need to excel at two different roles most of the time. And the tricky aspect of a 3 person party is you can't afford a glass cannon, because you can't afford to be spending a lot of actions healing people back up. The key functions that have to be covered in any party are Healing / Condition mitigation, Damage, Damage/Attack Absorption, Utility/Skills. There are likewise certain utility spells that every party should have: Tiny Hut, Pass without Trace, Healing Word and either Mage Hand or Find Familiar. Healing / Condition mitigation - Healing is pretty self explanatory, party members will go down, you need a way to get them back up with healing magic. Condition mitigation can be done in two different ways: either buffing saving throws (Bless, Pally Aura, Bardic Inspiration) or with "healing" spells (Restorations, Calm Emotions, Hero's feast, Heroism). Typically you won't need all of these, and a three person party generally can't afford to get all of them because of the opportunity cost it takes away from covering other aspects. Also slight aside: Pally Auras are IMO one of the most misused features in strategic combat, you really shouldn't be using a Pally Aura to avoid AoE saving throw damage because a +5 to a saving throw is much much worse than simply spreading out so the AoE hits fewer characters. Pally Auras are good for traps, and for running over to help someone make a repeat save against a control spell. Damage - is straightforward, though for a 3 person party it's very very helpful if the damage dealer is ranged rather than melee because spending actions to get the damage dealer in position is far more costly for a 3 person party. Whereas IME in a 5 person party it is more fun if the damage dealer is melee rather than ranged since it gives more reason to work together. Damage/Attack Absorption - Damage absorption is really the only place where IMO a three member party should be overlapping. Since it is so costly to spend actions / turns healing party members when there is only 3 of you, everyone needs to be able to take some damage and stay standing. I'd point out here though that AC is the worst way to build for Damage/Attack Absorption, damage resistances and just stacks of HP are way more important because enemies are going to find a way to hurt you. Because a combat where you are untouchable is a boring waste of time. I'd note that I personally include Control in this category as well because the only two surefire way to prevent damage being taken are resistances and forcing enemies to use their action for something else (or taking away their action). This is really what was made clear in the one-shot. Utility/Skills is hopefully pretty straightforward as well. You need a way to open locked boxes, get past magical defenses, locate and travel to the monster you need to fight. There are lots of ways to do it though, so it is usually not necessary to build for this in mind except for the few key spells I mentioned earlier.
@@M0ebius LOL That party will be dead in seconds. They all have tiny HP pools! One big AoE and some unlucky saving throws and its a TPK. Naw a good level 13 - 3 person party would be more along the lines of: Cleric-1/2 + Druid 12/11 : Either: 1 Peace Cleric or 2 Twilight Cleric, and any one of : Starry, Shepherd, Wildfire Druid (Condition mitigation / Healer, Utility) Hexbow: Warlock 5 x Bard - 8 : Hexblade-5 with SS, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, Thirsting Blade, Eloquence Bard - 8. (Damage, Utility, Emergency Healer, Damage mitigation). Fighter-4 + Barbarian - 9 : Rune Knight - 4 + Bear Totem or Zealot - 9 (Damage Absorption, Damage dealing, Grappling for CC)
@@agilemind6241 if I had my way you would be writing scripts for some youtubers. Not the Cpt Obvious ones, you know- the good ones. If you filled in the blanks for the suggestions you make this would be a good 5 minute scritp! And I totally agree with the Pally Aura +5 to saves - vs - spreading out (terrain dependent)!
@@agilemind6241 In terms of damage, it’d be even more helpful if ALL the PCs can deal damage versus having one dedicated damage dealer. And range is far better than melee if you are at all concerned at all about getting into position to deal damage, since you can lose entire rounds just running up to a target. In terms of defense, AC is far better than HP, especially if attacks come with status effects. HP is basically the easiest thing to recover between fights and really it makes no difference if you end the fight at 1HP or 100HP. And on an optimized table everyone should be packing Shield/Absorb Elements.
First and most importantly, I really loved this one shot. I have trouble sitting through D&D sessions on line. I couldn't stop watching this. Second and less importantly, for folks that have already watched this on other channels (like me) a text summary or time stamp of your comments in videos like this would be most appreciated.
I forgot to mention an error you may want to address in the first video. You Up-cast Conjure Animals to 5th level, and said if you cast it at 7th level it would have twice as many animals as you have now. It only goes from double the normal (level 3) amount, to triple. So that’s 24 velociraptors, not 32. I’m not sharp shooting you, I know (like me) you always want to be as accurate as possible. 😊
@@TreantmonksTemple, it's encouraging to know that even the great Treantmonk is not immune to making mistakes from time to time. :) Lord knows I make plenty of my own.
For the next one I would love to see an optimized party, let's say an adventure group that known each other for years and that can pull off some nice combos and show off some nice combat synergy. I also want to thank each and every one of you guys, its great to see the theory being tested!
This was awesome because these are my three favorite CZcams channels and where I get pretty much all my DnD content. You guys are awesome and I can't wait to see you all team up again!
Glad I got to see the second part of this! That first turn you had against the dragon was CRAZY! I had no idea you could do that with Find Familiar! This was some of my favorite DnD content ever! PLEASE do more of these! I'll watch every single one!
Absolutely loved watching this one-shot. As many have stated, honest, nice and knowledgeable guys playing should be a treat for any DnD fan. There were some really nice turns there from the different players and Monty was a really nice DM. Now going to Chris in particular. You gotta love that use of the raven. I can't believe I never thought about that. I do switch my familiar from time to time, but never thought about that use of mimicry. Owl will still be a staple of course, but that's something I'll take very much into account in the future. I guess, in the end, the most important part about being a summoner is what happened off-screen here: actually talking with your DM before the campaign so you're sure how your spell will work. And of course, I do think watching a character in an actual campaign is actually far better than any guide since it really show you in context how things work, how they benefit the whole party... and of course, how they sometimes just fail. Again, it was fun watching this and I sure hope we get to see different campaigns, with different characters but same players in the future.
Loved watching you 4 play. And it was nice to see that sometimes, in the heat of the moment, even you 4 can forget an ability/feature/rule and not take advantage of it. I’d like to see a short on that. Either how often you miss opportunities (if you care to share that) or what you do to help remind yourself of everything a character can do, especially when doing a high level one-shot.
I appreciated Colby's build, but I have a soft spot in my heart for the "Ultimate Spellsword" build you did with Conquest/Divine Soul. It's a walking cheese grater and it's generally always my backup character because I have to find excuses not to play it.
So, this is back to where VTTs are great. The saves on all those velociraptors - that can be done with a single (albeit long) command in Avrae (the discord bot). You just target each velociraptor for a single attack, which applies to each one. Then each one makes a save, and the effect is applied. It's made combat so much faster as a DM. Even if I get to do in-person games I'll probably still want some access to things like that.
This was the most fantastic game, it's like watching four chess grandmasters all playing their trade for our entertainment for free. I will pray to Thor to one day see more of these gentlemen do this again. I learned so much from the commentary overlay in these players actions.
The first fight was rough on the melee characters. I'm glad the later combat allowed everyone to contribute. Those maps were beautiful, and it was a pleasure watching all those tokens placed with such speed and efficiency. It's clear you guys came prepared and knew what you were doing. Edit: I just finished the video. This was a blast to watch. I loved it. I hope more collaborations can be arranged in the future. Four classy dudes.
This was cool and really makes me much more open to running summoner-type builds, as you have proven it to be fast with the right tools and player preparations.
I think re: the talk at the end of the session where you talked about having more general characters that covered all the bases is an interesting one that doesn't come up very often in optimization. The way i tend to build characters i try to make them able to do many different things and to make each of those things powerful. However, even with that i'm not sure i'm covering all the bases that i should. Ending up with hyper-optimized characters is a particular weakpoint of one-shots, but i think this can happen to regular parties as well. I think a video for like... "here's the things that a party of level 5/10/15 should have access to" where it's like counterspell, healing, whatever would be a really valuable thing both for optimization and regular play. I think this is a thing that really depends on the table, too. I imagine this party would have STRUGGLED with a traditional grinder dungeon. Imagine having to go through a traditional OD&D style dungeon that saps your resources constantly and doesn't let you rest with characters that have multi-turn setups before they hit their sweet spot. One final note: the closest i've come to TPKing my current party was some basic giants in a random encounter. It wasn't even close. There's something about giants that just makes them a threat...
Wow, I enjoyed this so much. I had so much fun with this whole vibe while watching some high level, nail biting encounters. And SO touching post scripts. Just big kind feelings from a bunch of awesome folks.
That Quickened Cloud of Daggers / Fire Rune / Crusher Feat / Smite combo was wild! I always liked spells like Create Bonfire and CoD but never knew how to get so much value out of them.
My favorite Fantasy archetype is the Summoner. My 3 current characters are all influenced by Treantmonnk builds. The Catch 22 build also influences my Sorcadin. What a collab!
Love it, fun fact about inscribed triangles. Having 3 monster be mutually within 20ft of each other is not sufficient to show they can be covered with a 20ft radius circle. Being mutually within 17ft would do it, however. Love your stuff, by the way. Just sharing what might be a counterintuitive fact.
While I like Colby's combo with the catch 22 I think the same resources are probably better spent on attack, attack, quicken booming blade for a third attack, if one hits 2nd level divine smite . That is the same resources however minus concentration so he could also have a divine favor/ hex etc up. Plus can chose ASI or other feat instead of crusher.
I wonder if a flying race tiefling/aaracocra wizard might have been even better than the artificer at doing the same thing. Drop a wall of force or some other wall/control effect. Hover over the battlefield safely, and reposition allies on whichever side of the wall or effect they need to be to attack or heal up. Could even duck / fly lower behind the wall when not taking your action to prevent you from getting your concentration broken.
Question shouldn't the 🦉 have been regaining at least 6 HP per round with the spirit totem out. Possibly the characters as well. If I remember the Shepard level 10 ability correctly.
What a fun adventure!!! I throughly enjoyed this. I mean I watched 6 hours of this one my phone over two nights. This was great I really liked your comment about specialized builds that are only good at one thing. I disagree with you though about your shepard druid (I would have added 1 of life to it as well but still the same principal)Z. Your druid carried…hard…. Parties need 3 things. DPR, control, and force multipliers. You covered damage and control (including battlefield control). You also could added utility with mounts, PWT, goodberries (again I would have added 1 life to make them extra tasty), and temp HP generation with bear. You were missing the other two The other two characters weren’t optimized at all. Paladin is a great force multiplier (I would have done watcher) and can add a lot of support but that build didn’t really do it The one thing you were missing and you mentioned this was a controller with CS. War wizard with a single dip in peace would have rocked this along with a shepard druid. Maybe eloquence bard with a divine soul or hex dip would have done it too But I mean…hind sight is 20/20 :)
Love druids! Never passed level 5 though, due to COVID (and life) 3 of my campaigns just ended before I reach level 6 😭 At least I can see how it works on higher level 😊
Hello Treant! I hope this comment reaches you and that you are well. First of all thank you for the content and the work you do to provide it! It's helpful, entertaining and appreciated. Secondly watching this collaboration between the 4 of you was a great time and thanks for participating. I saw the character build for Colby and was curious to see yours and Kelly's but couldn't access yours and didn't see a link for Kelly's. I am playing a Battle Smith in a recently started campaign and really wanted to see his build. Is there any way that this might be possible? Thanks in advance for any help. If not I understand and again great one shot!
ב"ה What would you do against an ancient crystal dragon? [which theoreticly could have been an option] With teleportation as a bonus action (or as legendary action) the plan of surrounding him with giant owls so he couldn't move away and breath on everyone would have failed.
I think I would have still done the owls. It would have been less effective, but it would still have been the best option available to deliver damage and get the other PC's in the air. Though if I have a chance to influence other builds, I would get Fog Cloud in play from Monty or Kelly and use Giant Bats. That would shut down the teleport entirely.
Actualy it wouln't shut down teleport because dragons have blindsight so they see through a fog cloud without any problem. That is why gem dragons are so dangerous.
Do you think there's a decent way to balance the summoner druid with still letting the player choose what creatures they get? If it was 1/2/3/6 creatures rather than 1/2/4/8 based on CR level, would that be enough?
@@TreantmonksTemple This sounds more like the optimizer's mini-game. Challenge me, DM, to pick the best one for each CR range that's fitting the party's current situation.
Very efficiently controlled animals certainly shows they don't need to slow the play down too much. Another great example of why raw says the gm picks the specific summons. I'd be interested in the honest opinions of the other players (and Monty) as to whether they thought the summoning was unbalancing or feelsbad (a couple of comments across the 2 sessions makes me think so).
I can't speak to all the other players, but after the stream was over, Monty voiced his opinion that Conjure Animals was fine and not a problem as long as its handled quickly. Honestly, I'm not sure I agree, it seems so much better than other equivalent level spell options when you run it this way.
@@TreantmonksTemple Something like the summon animals spell makes me wish that spells could level up with experience rather than you just getting new ones. Handling the spell this way wouldn't be such a problem if the spell were set at a higher level . . . and it rather makes sense that when you first get the ability you don't have much control and the GM picks, while later on you should have a better grip on things and be able to pick yourself from a growing list of options.
I like the possibility of organizing with your party some kind of control of the power via RP. For example certain summons are unlocked via quests, certain areas can only bring certain options, or even some cool down period to resummon certain options. At the end of the day it will stay as powerful spells but not that boring thing of always using the same strategy. The dryads were my favourite summon btw.
@@TreantmonksTemple i think i agree, it's too powerful comparing it to spell of the same level. And i think is worth mentioning that sure, running the summons with a macro is fast and you did it very well. Now if i have to do this in person siting on table with actual die it starts to looks way slower to me.
I must say. This was an absolute clinic on how to play a summoner. From the perfectly timed utility summons to the combat prowess. Chris played an optimized character at full capacity. Using limited resources in class abilities at the perfect times. Very well done sir.
An awesome Shepherd Druid, very well played. I tip my hat.
Agreed! 🐇
He had something to do at all times. Well executed!
@@VvDOPAMEANvV I think the most impressive was that he always had something to do and actually did it. A lot of players look at sun classes and go “oh that’s so strong and op” but then in play a lot of them forget to use abilities or use them at bad times. Or just don’t cast the right spell at the right time. He always knew what to do next. Playing an optimized character optimally is much harder than it sounds.
@@Trial88
It's inspired the hell out of me. I totally rerolled a couple of my favorite chars last week just to edge out initiative and have options for each portion of combat.
I think Colby got whipped over action economy. I'm happy he got to do his thing, but he's screwed on the open battlefield and/or doomed to counter whoever beats him at initiative. He has a dangerous character, and I'd focus him down given the option.
Love the bit at the end where you were all complimenting each other. Props to you for pointing out that Colby initiated this and for thanking the Dudes for the obvious hand-up. Everyone here came across as so gracious and kind. I really hope you all can do this again.
they said that
1) druid is a weak caster.
2) silvery barbs must be banned.
3) summoners always make combat. encounters take forever
Thanks again the three channels for the show
I really love the tone and rapport of this one-shot. The over-produced and dramatically performed big streamed campaigns just feel off to me and I haven't gotten into any of them, whereas this casual but enthusiastic collab feels like the D&D I've experienced and it's really heartwarming and comforting.
Great game and I hope these continue for a couple reasons. Rare to see DnD played at this level AND you all seem like genuinely nice people. What fun!
I hope so too!
I hope to see a round 2 with actually optimized characters instead of gimmicky ones.
The best part of these videos is reading your analysis. Seeing you admit when you made a mistake, or that you made a sub-optimal choice. It’s reassuring seeing that even some of our idols in the community are capable of mistakes.
“Are we am optimized party without Counterspell?”
Doh! 😣
Honestly I'd take Dispel Magic over Counterspell. The worse spell effects are those that persist, so either Dispel or Counterspell works and Dispel lets you choose to use after you know it is a problem and gives you multiple tries to get rid of it, whereas Counterspell is one chance and that's it. Plus Dispel has far larger range and is much more difficult to counter than Counterspell.
@@agilemind6241 I would take both!
@@agilemind6241 Dispel Magic and Counterspell aren’t mutually exclusive. But also Counterspell can ensure that you land your own big spell.
Colby: Can I cast guidance on myself?
Chris: I will cast guidance on you
Kelly: I also have guidance
Me: lol
Thanks! Really enjoyed the "one-shot" with Dungeon Dudes and D4 Deep Dive.
You allowing the other player take the drow kill can not be credited enough. This is a great move that never gets enough credit.
That use of cloud rune was CLUTCH on Colby's part!
A bit too much metagaming/DM fiat for my taste.
@@M0ebius Mark of a great dm is doing things that make sense and help the characters shine. This was that.
@@nickdefrancis I prefer to let the dice do the storytelling because otherwise why bother rolling.
@@M0ebius the dm ruling that the drow was its own ally was the only real hinky part of that
Granted, there was immediate retroaction, however, based on the "ally" ruling, that is also what *should* have happened (almost like when the DM immediately remembers something *after the fact* )
Still, you can certainly take issue with the DM making that ruling in the first place
@@nickdefrancis I tend to agree with you. The dice *facilitate* the story, but it's told through the DM+players-- whether dice are even involved or not (see: a lot of other systems)
Just like episode 1, super fun to rewatch my favorite bits and read the commentary. This was a very fun 1-shot, hope the stars (and schedules) align to allow this group to do it again sometime in the future!
It was amazing how quickly they began to synergize. First fight three individuals, second fight a team, third fight a good team. Please make this a thing.
The gazers vs velociraptors battle was hilarious! Loved it! Also loved the reflection on character and team building at the end. Awesome stuff! I hope the four of you get a chance to play another one shot like this!
It's funny how your habit of conserving resources for the next fight bites you multiple times during this two-shot xd
Can relate
Always gotta assume eight encounters per day with one short rest, nothing less
@@joshuawinestock9998 With 8 encounters it’s more reasonable to assume 2-3 short rests IMO, unless the encounters are reasonably easy or tightly packed together.
@@M0ebius hehe you're not familiar with Treantmonk then?
I'd love to see gauntlets like this used to test builds - I wonder how a monk would do. I think against the storm giants it might have done ok, my math shows a ~30% chance to stun per attempt, which would be huge. That's not gonna work against a dragon though :)
I don’t think a monk would do very well in a three man party in a really difficult campaign. Even if you stun, the fact that you don’t do much damage sort of nullifies your contribution. A sorlock for instance can cast Web then Eldritch Blast + Repelling Blast the target into the Web over and over, so you can potentially soft-lock multiple targets continuously while doing damage from distance.
This was really cool! I love seeing D&D combat especially with more optimized characters. Definitely looking forward to more one-shots.
I love how much fun you guys all seemed to be having and how much of a genuine mutually uplifting atmosphere you guys have. Was so much fun to see and loved the game itself as well!
I generally don't like live play videos but this was amazing. Please keep doing these. You guys (my three favorite D&D channels) are great together.
I loved the trick with the raven! So cool! Amazing session, so much fun to watch!
Thank you all for this. I enjoyed it immensely. I'm a forever DM so I play vicariously through you. 😁
I would love to see this become a regular game where you guys play a one shot with different optimized builds
So what did we learn?
1. 3 person party needs to overlap, not specialize.
2. What are the main functions that NEED to be reliably covered with 3 people? Damage, Control, Defense, Stealth and theif duties, Healing and Saving Throw control.
3. Counterspell, I'm sure there were some other basic spells that should have been taken between the Artificer, a Paladin (Sorcerer) and a Druid?
4. Big Wombo Combo's don't happen in a normal game more than once or twice, or the DM will start saying the smarter creatures at higher levels will avoid those combos because they are smart AND experienced. OR, some of those combos are really hard to pull off in open terrain types.
I think the idealized level 13 three man party is probably something like a Hexblade Divine Soul, Hexblade Sorcadin, and a Hexblade SorcBard or Clockwork Soul. It’s kind of the perfect coverage of all the aspects you’d need with built-in synergy and redundency.
A three person party can't afford to overlap too much since even disjointly they will need to excel at two different roles most of the time. And the tricky aspect of a 3 person party is you can't afford a glass cannon, because you can't afford to be spending a lot of actions healing people back up.
The key functions that have to be covered in any party are Healing / Condition mitigation, Damage, Damage/Attack Absorption, Utility/Skills. There are likewise certain utility spells that every party should have: Tiny Hut, Pass without Trace, Healing Word and either Mage Hand or Find Familiar.
Healing / Condition mitigation - Healing is pretty self explanatory, party members will go down, you need a way to get them back up with healing magic. Condition mitigation can be done in two different ways: either buffing saving throws (Bless, Pally Aura, Bardic Inspiration) or with "healing" spells (Restorations, Calm Emotions, Hero's feast, Heroism). Typically you won't need all of these, and a three person party generally can't afford to get all of them because of the opportunity cost it takes away from covering other aspects.
Also slight aside: Pally Auras are IMO one of the most misused features in strategic combat, you really shouldn't be using a Pally Aura to avoid AoE saving throw damage because a +5 to a saving throw is much much worse than simply spreading out so the AoE hits fewer characters. Pally Auras are good for traps, and for running over to help someone make a repeat save against a control spell.
Damage - is straightforward, though for a 3 person party it's very very helpful if the damage dealer is ranged rather than melee because spending actions to get the damage dealer in position is far more costly for a 3 person party. Whereas IME in a 5 person party it is more fun if the damage dealer is melee rather than ranged since it gives more reason to work together.
Damage/Attack Absorption - Damage absorption is really the only place where IMO a three member party should be overlapping. Since it is so costly to spend actions / turns healing party members when there is only 3 of you, everyone needs to be able to take some damage and stay standing. I'd point out here though that AC is the worst way to build for Damage/Attack Absorption, damage resistances and just stacks of HP are way more important because enemies are going to find a way to hurt you. Because a combat where you are untouchable is a boring waste of time. I'd note that I personally include Control in this category as well because the only two surefire way to prevent damage being taken are resistances and forcing enemies to use their action for something else (or taking away their action). This is really what was made clear in the one-shot.
Utility/Skills is hopefully pretty straightforward as well. You need a way to open locked boxes, get past magical defenses, locate and travel to the monster you need to fight. There are lots of ways to do it though, so it is usually not necessary to build for this in mind except for the few key spells I mentioned earlier.
@@M0ebius LOL That party will be dead in seconds. They all have tiny HP pools! One big AoE and some unlucky saving throws and its a TPK.
Naw a good level 13 - 3 person party would be more along the lines of:
Cleric-1/2 + Druid 12/11 : Either: 1 Peace Cleric or 2 Twilight Cleric, and any one of : Starry, Shepherd, Wildfire Druid (Condition mitigation / Healer, Utility)
Hexbow: Warlock 5 x Bard - 8 : Hexblade-5 with SS, Improved Pact Weapon, Eldritch Smite, Thirsting Blade, Eloquence Bard - 8. (Damage, Utility, Emergency Healer, Damage mitigation).
Fighter-4 + Barbarian - 9 : Rune Knight - 4 + Bear Totem or Zealot - 9 (Damage Absorption, Damage dealing, Grappling for CC)
@@agilemind6241 if I had my way you would be writing scripts for some youtubers. Not the Cpt Obvious ones, you know- the good ones. If you filled in the blanks for the suggestions you make this would be a good 5 minute scritp!
And I totally agree with the Pally Aura +5 to saves - vs - spreading out (terrain dependent)!
@@agilemind6241 In terms of damage, it’d be even more helpful if ALL the PCs can deal damage versus having one dedicated damage dealer. And range is far better than melee if you are at all concerned at all about getting into position to deal damage, since you can lose entire rounds just running up to a target.
In terms of defense, AC is far better than HP, especially if attacks come with status effects. HP is basically the easiest thing to recover between fights and really it makes no difference if you end the fight at 1HP or 100HP. And on an optimized table everyone should be packing Shield/Absorb Elements.
First and most importantly, I really loved this one shot. I have trouble sitting through D&D sessions on line. I couldn't stop watching this.
Second and less importantly, for folks that have already watched this on other channels (like me) a text summary or time stamp of your comments in videos like this would be most appreciated.
I forgot to mention an error you may want to address in the first video.
You Up-cast Conjure Animals to 5th level, and said if you cast it at 7th level it would have twice as many animals as you have now.
It only goes from double the normal (level 3) amount, to triple. So that’s 24 velociraptors, not 32.
I’m not sharp shooting you, I know (like me) you always want to be as accurate as possible. 😊
Yep, that was an error.
@@TreantmonksTemple, it's encouraging to know that even the great Treantmonk is not immune to making mistakes from time to time. :) Lord knows I make plenty of my own.
Please make this at least a semi-regular team up... definitively my 3 favorite CZcams channels. Nicely done gents 👏🏼
For the next one I would love to see an optimized party, let's say an adventure group that known each other for years and that can pull off some nice combos and show off some nice combat synergy.
I also want to thank each and every one of you guys, its great to see the theory being tested!
This was awesome because these are my three favorite CZcams channels and where I get pretty much all my DnD content. You guys are awesome and I can't wait to see you all team up again!
Really enjoyed these! Big fan of all three channels and loved how well you guys meshed together! Hope to see more collaborations in the future!
@ 1:35:55
Monty - "dont conceal, reveal."
Lol, i feel that, Roll20 fog of war is always glitching on me and doing the reverse.
Glad I got to see the second part of this! That first turn you had against the dragon was CRAZY! I had no idea you could do that with Find Familiar! This was some of my favorite DnD content ever! PLEASE do more of these! I'll watch every single one!
Yeah that was a very cool move and lowkey my favorite part of the session.
Absolutely loved watching this one-shot. As many have stated, honest, nice and knowledgeable guys playing should be a treat for any DnD fan. There were some really nice turns there from the different players and Monty was a really nice DM.
Now going to Chris in particular. You gotta love that use of the raven. I can't believe I never thought about that. I do switch my familiar from time to time, but never thought about that use of mimicry. Owl will still be a staple of course, but that's something I'll take very much into account in the future.
I guess, in the end, the most important part about being a summoner is what happened off-screen here: actually talking with your DM before the campaign so you're sure how your spell will work.
And of course, I do think watching a character in an actual campaign is actually far better than any guide since it really show you in context how things work, how they benefit the whole party... and of course, how they sometimes just fail.
Again, it was fun watching this and I sure hope we get to see different campaigns, with different characters but same players in the future.
Loved watching you 4 play. And it was nice to see that sometimes, in the heat of the moment, even you 4 can forget an ability/feature/rule and not take advantage of it. I’d like to see a short on that. Either how often you miss opportunities (if you care to share that) or what you do to help remind yourself of everything a character can do, especially when doing a high level one-shot.
I appreciated Colby's build, but I have a soft spot in my heart for the "Ultimate Spellsword" build you did with Conquest/Divine Soul. It's a walking cheese grater and it's generally always my backup character because I have to find excuses not to play it.
This and the level 20 one-shot are great. One of the casters needed counterspell, or dispel magic on both the DM, and Player side of the game.
Yay! Now I can see from your perspective what happens to Dennis and his Friends!
Please post more videos of your builds playing in game. Helps put the theories into play. Thanks again.
Very entertaining. What I have learned is that Chris is right, saving throws are king. Well done gents!
So, this is back to where VTTs are great. The saves on all those velociraptors - that can be done with a single (albeit long) command in Avrae (the discord bot).
You just target each velociraptor for a single attack, which applies to each one. Then each one makes a save, and the effect is applied.
It's made combat so much faster as a DM. Even if I get to do in-person games I'll probably still want some access to things like that.
I LOVE the mental image of 2 Genres Clashing by Crazy Happenstance.
Munchkin Eldritch Horrors vs. Prehistoric Ravenous Chickens
All the tadpoles inside the body burst out and start swarming the paladin in the water
This was the most fantastic game, it's like watching four chess grandmasters all playing their trade for our entertainment for free. I will pray to Thor to one day see more of these gentlemen do this again. I learned so much from the commentary overlay in these players actions.
The first fight was rough on the melee characters. I'm glad the later combat allowed everyone to contribute.
Those maps were beautiful, and it was a pleasure watching all those tokens placed with such speed and efficiency. It's clear you guys came prepared and knew what you were doing.
Edit: I just finished the video. This was a blast to watch. I loved it. I hope more collaborations can be arranged in the future. Four classy dudes.
This was a clinic. Id like to see a Treantmonk DM oneshot.
The annotations are brilliant. Thanks Treantmonk
You could have taken counter spell as part of your background.
What a fun group to watch! I would love to see more of you playing your builds on your CZcams channel.
This was cool and really makes me much more open to running summoner-type builds, as you have proven it to be fast with the right tools and player preparations.
I think re: the talk at the end of the session where you talked about having more general characters that covered all the bases is an interesting one that doesn't come up very often in optimization. The way i tend to build characters i try to make them able to do many different things and to make each of those things powerful. However, even with that i'm not sure i'm covering all the bases that i should. Ending up with hyper-optimized characters is a particular weakpoint of one-shots, but i think this can happen to regular parties as well.
I think a video for like... "here's the things that a party of level 5/10/15 should have access to" where it's like counterspell, healing, whatever would be a really valuable thing both for optimization and regular play.
I think this is a thing that really depends on the table, too. I imagine this party would have STRUGGLED with a traditional grinder dungeon. Imagine having to go through a traditional OD&D style dungeon that saps your resources constantly and doesn't let you rest with characters that have multi-turn setups before they hit their sweet spot.
One final note: the closest i've come to TPKing my current party was some basic giants in a random encounter. It wasn't even close. There's something about giants that just makes them a threat...
Wow, I enjoyed this so much. I had so much fun with this whole vibe while watching some high level, nail biting encounters.
And SO touching post scripts. Just big kind feelings from a bunch of awesome folks.
Notice that a grappled owl would fall due to 0 speed.
Usually i find it hard to watch other people playing D&D. But this was great. And I want more one shots like that.
BEST TWO I'VE EVER WACHED!!! also first two shot I've ever watched.. hehe.. looking forward to seeing more of you playin a game! ORAD TO 50K!!
As a new DM, I enjoy watching one shots like this. I'm definitely taking notes.
Three best D&D channels, this vid makes me cry with joy!
Holy shit, well done on getting a summoner be really streamlined and versatile!
That Quickened Cloud of Daggers / Fire Rune / Crusher Feat / Smite combo was wild! I always liked spells like Create Bonfire and CoD but never knew how to get so much value out of them.
I was drawn to them when i made my very first spellcaster.
Spirit guardians builds are like what I imagined as a young one reading cloud of daggers
My favorite Fantasy archetype is the Summoner. My 3 current characters are all influenced by Treantmonnk builds. The Catch 22 build also influences my Sorcadin. What a collab!
37:33 - I thought the Gate was held by the "The Wise" lady, not the apprentice mage?
I thought the matron cast the banishment. If not, my mistake.
It is definitely the Backing Singer Mage. Casting Banishment rather than casting Dimension Door.
Any talks of round 2 this year?! I love rewatching this
You need Billbron and dragons to make a 4th , not sure how you would cope as a DM !!!!
100% this.
Congrats on 30,000 subscribers, Colby. You earned it! ❤️
🎉
Really heartwarming ending
This was a really cool session. I hope you all continue with similar sessions where everyone gets to DM at least once.
fantastic im glad you found each other
super group, love how you discuss topics
Awesome finale
Loved this. Love all of these channels. Love that you all made mistakes here and there. Felt like real D&D. Was super fun.
Love it, fun fact about inscribed triangles. Having 3 monster be mutually within 20ft of each other is not sufficient to show they can be covered with a 20ft radius circle.
Being mutually within 17ft would do it, however.
Love your stuff, by the way. Just sharing what might be a counterintuitive fact.
While I like Colby's combo with the catch 22 I think the same resources are probably better spent on attack, attack, quicken booming blade for a third attack, if one hits 2nd level divine smite . That is the same resources however minus concentration so he could also have a divine favor/ hex etc up. Plus can chose ASI or other feat instead of crusher.
Keep seeing the paladin take damage and not make a concentration save for bless, or am I missing something there?
"Elder Brain Tadpoles and Brine" is the name of my Jethro Tull cover band.
14:00 the only thought in my mind is Enders Game
I wonder if a flying race tiefling/aaracocra wizard might have been even better than the artificer at doing the same thing. Drop a wall of force or some other wall/control effect. Hover over the battlefield safely, and reposition allies on whichever side of the wall or effect they need to be to attack or heal up. Could even duck / fly lower behind the wall when not taking your action to prevent you from getting your concentration broken.
Would be really fun to see more of this. Really interesting and fun
I'd still say that casting of Conjure Woodland Beings was not wasted. It did a bit of damage and caused Barenziah to use a 7th-level spell.
37:32 I think the drow casting banishment is not the same as the one concentrating on the gate
This was just great.
At 37:20 he was using the mage not the cleric, the cleric is the one concentrating on Gate
Question shouldn't the 🦉 have been regaining at least 6 HP per round with the spirit totem out. Possibly the characters as well. If I remember the Shepard level 10 ability correctly.
Would love to run this one shot for my group lol
Fantastic series. Super fun and informative. Can we see copies of the character sheets?
Well done 👍 you ALL are great. Just a pleasure to watch
Thanks
27:30 I said it before Kelly did
What a fun adventure!!!
I throughly enjoyed this. I mean I watched 6 hours of this one my phone over two nights. This was great
I really liked your comment about specialized builds that are only good at one thing. I disagree with you though about your shepard druid (I would have added 1 of life to it as well but still the same principal)Z. Your druid carried…hard….
Parties need 3 things. DPR, control, and force multipliers.
You covered damage and control (including battlefield control). You also could added utility with mounts, PWT, goodberries (again I would have added 1 life to make them extra tasty), and temp HP generation with bear.
You were missing the other two
The other two characters weren’t optimized at all. Paladin is a great force multiplier (I would have done watcher) and can add a lot of support but that build didn’t really do it
The one thing you were missing and you mentioned this was a controller with CS. War wizard with a single dip in peace would have rocked this along with a shepard druid. Maybe eloquence bard with a divine soul or hex dip would have done it too
But I mean…hind sight is 20/20 :)
I didn’t think one can be prone in water
Love druids!
Never passed level 5 though, due to COVID (and life) 3 of my campaigns just ended before I reach level 6 😭
At least I can see how it works on higher level 😊
Hello Treant! I hope this comment reaches you and that you are well. First of all thank you for the content and the work you do to provide it! It's helpful, entertaining and appreciated. Secondly watching this collaboration between the 4 of you was a great time and thanks for participating.
I saw the character build for Colby and was curious to see yours and Kelly's but couldn't access yours and didn't see a link for Kelly's. I am playing a Battle Smith in a recently started campaign and really wanted to see his build. Is there any way that this might be possible? Thanks in advance for any help. If not I understand and again great one shot!
Cool!
ב"ה
What would you do against an ancient crystal dragon? [which theoreticly could have been an option]
With teleportation as a bonus action (or as legendary action) the plan of surrounding him with giant owls so he couldn't move away and breath on everyone would have failed.
I think I would have still done the owls. It would have been less effective, but it would still have been the best option available to deliver damage and get the other PC's in the air. Though if I have a chance to influence other builds, I would get Fog Cloud in play from Monty or Kelly and use Giant Bats. That would shut down the teleport entirely.
Actualy it wouln't shut down teleport because dragons have blindsight so they see through a fog cloud without any problem. That is why gem dragons are so dangerous.
@@TreantmonksTemple Dang.
@@SuperSorcerer even more Dang.
You still go giant owls but you use them to spread out the party members so even with teleporting the dragon can't hit everyone at once.
So who do we need to convince to do this again? Or maybe you can guest star on Drakkenheim?
Picture that is over your right shoulder where did you get that from? Also, I really enjoyed watching you guys. I hope y’all do more of these
Your roleplay is so funny, I wish you would upload more live games to your channel (or create separate channel for that).
Do you think there's a decent way to balance the summoner druid with still letting the player choose what creatures they get? If it was 1/2/3/6 creatures rather than 1/2/4/8 based on CR level, would that be enough?
I think you could reverse it. So the DM picks the number of creatures then the player picks the creature.
@@TreantmonksTemple This sounds more like the optimizer's mini-game. Challenge me, DM, to pick the best one for each CR range that's fitting the party's current situation.
You guys had NO ranged weapons, which was shocking.
I think it would be great if you ever wanted to collaborate again and make a 3-person party that is "optimized" as a party.
Fun was had
Wondering if an Abjurer would be infested if his or her ward holds (unlikely, but who care ^^)
Very efficiently controlled animals certainly shows they don't need to slow the play down too much.
Another great example of why raw says the gm picks the specific summons.
I'd be interested in the honest opinions of the other players (and Monty) as to whether they thought the summoning was unbalancing or feelsbad (a couple of comments across the 2 sessions makes me think so).
I can't speak to all the other players, but after the stream was over, Monty voiced his opinion that Conjure Animals was fine and not a problem as long as its handled quickly. Honestly, I'm not sure I agree, it seems so much better than other equivalent level spell options when you run it this way.
@@TreantmonksTemple, the way it was ran in this 2 part one shot, it almost makes shepherd druids mandatory. :D
@@TreantmonksTemple Something like the summon animals spell makes me wish that spells could level up with experience rather than you just getting new ones. Handling the spell this way wouldn't be such a problem if the spell were set at a higher level . . . and it rather makes sense that when you first get the ability you don't have much control and the GM picks, while later on you should have a better grip on things and be able to pick yourself from a growing list of options.
I like the possibility of organizing with your party some kind of control of the power via RP. For example certain summons are unlocked via quests, certain areas can only bring certain options, or even some cool down period to resummon certain options. At the end of the day it will stay as powerful spells but not that boring thing of always using the same strategy.
The dryads were my favourite summon btw.
@@TreantmonksTemple i think i agree, it's too powerful comparing it to spell of the same level. And i think is worth mentioning that sure, running the summons with a macro is fast and you did it very well. Now if i have to do this in person siting on table with actual die it starts to looks way slower to me.
OP owls haha