@@williama.hovestreydt6623 In the modern sense, atheism is one step closer to divinization because it signals the first steps of casting aside the absurdity of an un-Christ like God. I.E. a step in the right direction.
@@Jordan-hz1wr this is brilliant... been thinking about the hostility Christendom has to atheism (sometimes especially evangelicals)which is uncalled for in most circumstances because they do really believe that an Omnibenevolent God could in no way propagate such evil ,in some sense I love this because they see who exactly Christ is even without knowing.
when God visited me, I saw nothing, my body wilted and melted from inside, he said very few words, my ways are higher than your ways, you are mine now and I will never leave you
...I have not listened to a lot of Hart. I am slightly troubled by the idea of Universalism, but certainly troubled by the lack of discussion surrounding the Holy Spirit and the important role that The Comforter brings to our understanding, knowledge and courage. Am I missing something, am I wrong?
I think being troubled by the idea of universalism is only natural when we have been raised on the belief of an eternal hell. Imagine for a moment that your starting point was complete agnosticism. I would say that it would be less difficult to be convinced of universalism if this was your starting point than if your starting point was as a believer in hell. I feel I can empathize with your concern. Personally, I wondered if my adoption of the belief was wishful thinking. On reflection, although I do prefer the belief of universalism, I am becoming convinced of it on rational and theological grounds. I don't think the Christian theological grounds are indisputable. Although, on balance, I have come to see that the bible does point more in the direction of universalism - at least in my opinion. Either way, I don't see the bible as infallible. It was written by inspired, but fallible, men. So the theological debate on this is not what is most important to me personally. The rational arguments are what really convinced me. You can look into these arguments yourself - see Hart, Gregory of Nissa, Origan, Rameille. To sum up some of the arguments: if one person is in an eternal hell then God's creation is a complete tragedy and failure which should never have been created - reductio ad absurdum.
@@ob4161 This verse looks like it points to an eternal hell. But I wouldn't take a verse in isolation from broader arguments and other verses relating to hell. For me, one verse (or even many) doesn't have veto. For me, the bible is a record of the struggles, insights, and mistakes that inspired people from a particular culture had as they sought to find and relate to God. Modern scholarship is quite united on the notion of the writers of the gospels putting words into Jesus' mouth too. Certain historical facts are completely wrong/exaggerated. There are manifest contradictions and even some verses that promote what today could only be seen as a bloodthirsty genocide. I'm not denigrating the bible but it needs to be put in its proper place. In the end, each individual needs to decide if such a place exists. No person or book has the authority to make that decision for you in my opinion.
Mr Hart, along with Christianity, is absolutely wrong about man being in a fallen relationship with God. The first account of creation in scripture is prophetic; God speaking of things that are not yet as though they were , because He has purposed it and it is certain to be so; whereas the second account detailing mans first error is a historical rendering of the beginning of God's creating man, the end being mans completion as the full measure of the stature of Christ who as yet is the only finished perfect man. Arthur Prince Adams The Spirit of the Word will be a great help to all those willing to grasp this fact and further enlighten them as to how God uses sin, evil , trial and suffering to perfect man finally into His image at the consummation of all things
@@englandshope689 If you break the law you disobey it. All of God's words are law as He is the Almighty omniscient teacher and every word that leaves His lips will be fulfilled Isaiah 55:11 Romans 11:32 declares God consigned or jailed everyone to disobedience so that He could have mercy on everyone. In other words God made man not knowing all good and all evil , as He does, so it was inevitable that man would miss the mark/sin/disobey and His mercy is that He will teach us to be just like Him . Mercy triumphs over judgement James 2:13 , when God judges men learn righteousness Isaiah 26:9 and through the coming ages God will mercifully subject or teach all to become the full measure of the stature of Jesus Christ so that He may be all in all 1Corinthians 15:28 God is a consuming fire , His law is a fiery law, his ministers are a flame of fire , metophorically, to burn of the dross of sin resulting in the purification/glorification of all His subjects/creations through the leading/teaching into all Truth by the King of Kings. I am the Truth . Spirit is God John 4:24 When the Spirit of Truth is come He will guide and lead into all Truth. Jesus is the Word Rev 19:13 Spirit gives life , His Words are Spirit and life John 6:63 The Word (Spirit) was made flesh and dwelt among us John 1 Jesus is the Almighty Rev1:8 " I and the Father are one " John 10:30 There is only one True God who came Himself in the form of a man to show us the Truth of the Way to Life I am the Way, the Truth and the Life , follow Me " Even though He was a Son , He learnt obedience by the things He suffered " Hebrews 5:8 Christ created all things and His glorious plan cannot and will not fail 1Corinthians 13:8, His mission as Savior of all from sin is assured because He is Almighty and saves by Grace through His faith Ephesians 2:8 it is His gift . "Grace super exceeds sin , for wherever sin is grace abounds all the more " Romans 5:20 No wonder everything ever created in the Universe will sing the praise of His honour , glory and power Rev 5:13 " All Judgement is given unto Me " hasten the Judgement for when men face the Judgement they face the Annointed Savior ( Christ Jesus ) who said, speaking of the manner of His death, " If I be lifted up I will drag all men unto Myself " " I, even I am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no Savior " Isaiah 43:11
Wonderful
Excellent.
I've finished reading Bart Ehrman's book, Heaven and Hell, and he argues that those are not even mentioned anywhere in the Bible!
Bart Ehrman is very smart.
You know Bart is an atheist right?
@@williama.hovestreydt6623 In the modern sense, atheism is one step closer to divinization because it signals the first steps of casting aside the absurdity of an un-Christ like God. I.E. a step in the right direction.
@@Jordan-hz1wr this is brilliant... been thinking about the hostility Christendom has to atheism (sometimes especially evangelicals)which is uncalled for in most circumstances because they do really believe that an Omnibenevolent God could in no way propagate such evil ,in some sense I love this because they see who exactly Christ is even without knowing.
@@joemamicha349 Beautifully said!
when God visited me, I saw nothing, my body wilted and melted from inside, he said very few words, my ways are higher than your ways, you are mine now and I will never leave you
...I have not listened to a lot of Hart. I am slightly troubled by the idea of Universalism, but certainly troubled by the lack of discussion surrounding the Holy Spirit and the important role that The Comforter brings to our understanding, knowledge and courage. Am I missing something, am I wrong?
I think being troubled by the idea of universalism is only natural when we have been raised on the belief of an eternal hell. Imagine for a moment that your starting point was complete agnosticism. I would say that it would be less difficult to be convinced of universalism if this was your starting point than if your starting point was as a believer in hell.
I feel I can empathize with your concern. Personally, I wondered if my adoption of the belief was wishful thinking. On reflection, although I do prefer the belief of universalism, I am becoming convinced of it on rational and theological grounds.
I don't think the Christian theological grounds are indisputable. Although, on balance, I have come to see that the bible does point more in the direction of universalism - at least in my opinion. Either way, I don't see the bible as infallible. It was written by inspired, but fallible, men. So the theological debate on this is not what is most important to me personally.
The rational arguments are what really convinced me.
You can look into these arguments yourself - see Hart, Gregory of Nissa, Origan, Rameille.
To sum up some of the arguments: if one person is in an eternal hell then God's creation is a complete tragedy and failure which should never have been created - reductio ad absurdum.
@@sgt7 What about luke 13: 24?
@@ob4161 This verse looks like it points to an eternal hell. But I wouldn't take a verse in isolation from broader arguments and other verses relating to hell. For me, one verse (or even many) doesn't have veto.
For me, the bible is a record of the struggles, insights, and mistakes that inspired people from a particular culture had as they sought to find and relate to God.
Modern scholarship is quite united on the notion of the writers of the gospels putting words into Jesus' mouth too. Certain historical facts are completely wrong/exaggerated. There are manifest contradictions and even some verses that promote what today could only be seen as a bloodthirsty genocide. I'm not denigrating the bible but it needs to be put in its proper place.
In the end, each individual needs to decide if such a place exists. No person or book has the authority to make that decision for you in my opinion.
@@sgt7 plus theres MUCH Scriptural support for Ultimate Redemption for All
@@ob4161 what about Romans 5:18,19 ?
Mr Hart, along with Christianity, is absolutely wrong about man being in a fallen relationship with God.
The first account of creation in scripture is prophetic; God speaking of things that are not yet as though they were , because He has purposed it and it is certain to be so; whereas the second account detailing mans first error is a historical rendering of the beginning of God's creating man, the end being mans completion as the full measure of the stature of Christ who as yet is the only finished perfect man.
Arthur Prince Adams The Spirit of the Word will be a great help to all those willing to grasp this fact
and further enlighten them as to how God uses sin, evil , trial and suffering to perfect man finally into His image at the consummation of all things
hmmm, very interesting...anyway, theres MUCH Scriptural support for Ultimate Redemption for All
@@englandshope689 If you break the law you disobey it. All of God's words are law as He is the Almighty omniscient teacher and every word that leaves His lips will be fulfilled Isaiah 55:11
Romans 11:32 declares God consigned or jailed everyone to disobedience so that He could have mercy on everyone. In other words God made man not knowing all good and all evil , as He does, so it was inevitable that man would miss the mark/sin/disobey and His mercy is that He will teach us to be just like Him . Mercy triumphs over judgement James 2:13 , when God judges men learn righteousness Isaiah 26:9 and through the coming ages God will mercifully subject or teach all to become the full measure of the stature of Jesus Christ so that He may be all in all 1Corinthians 15:28
God is a consuming fire , His law is a fiery law, his ministers are a flame of fire , metophorically, to burn of the dross of sin resulting in the purification/glorification of all His subjects/creations through the leading/teaching into all Truth by the King of Kings. I am the Truth . Spirit is God John 4:24 When the Spirit of Truth is come He will guide and lead into all Truth. Jesus is the Word Rev 19:13 Spirit gives life , His Words are Spirit and life John 6:63 The Word (Spirit) was made flesh and dwelt among us John 1 Jesus is the Almighty Rev1:8 " I and the Father are one " John 10:30 There is only one True God who came Himself in the form of a man to show us the Truth of the Way to Life I am the Way, the Truth and the Life , follow Me
" Even though He was a Son , He learnt obedience by the things He suffered " Hebrews 5:8 Christ created all things and His glorious plan cannot and will not fail 1Corinthians 13:8, His mission as Savior of all from sin is assured because He is Almighty and saves by Grace through His faith Ephesians 2:8 it is His gift . "Grace super exceeds sin , for wherever sin is grace abounds all the more " Romans 5:20
No wonder everything ever created in the Universe will sing the praise of His honour , glory and power Rev 5:13
" All Judgement is given unto Me " hasten the Judgement for when men face the Judgement they face the Annointed Savior ( Christ Jesus ) who said, speaking of the manner of His death, " If I be lifted up I will drag all men unto Myself "
" I, even I am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no Savior " Isaiah 43:11