Can You Make the Case for the Existence of God? With Douglas Groothuis and Andrew Ike Shepardson
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- čas přidán 21. 10. 2023
- For some, “apologetics” is a big scary word that sounds intimidating or overwhelming. For others, it seems like head-knowledge with no heart. For still others, it can conjure images of debate by argumentative intellectuals. In today’s episode, we’ll talk with Dr. Doug Groothuis, and Dr. Andrew I. Shepardson about their new book which spells it all out in simple terms. We’ll talk through some objections to apologetics, and walk through several arguments for the existence of God.
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Thank you so much everyone, but especially Alisa, I am in the same place as you, where I know the cosmological argument for God, yet 18 months after learning it I still struggle with verbalizing it! Yet, I won't give up on this Apologetics journey! I'm leaning into the tension and letting it bring change! Thanks for being there pointing to the truth and how to understand AND explain it to others!!!
I love Dr Baucham's definition which says "Knowing what I believe and why I believe and to communicate it winsomely.
Hi Alisa! I'm a big fan of your podcast (and ZOEgirl back in the day ;-) ) and it was cool to see Ike on your podcast. He's been a friend and we've been in the same church family for I guess nearly 20 years and I can honestly say he and his wife are two of the most solid believers I know. Just wanted to say I enjoyed the conversation and I truly do agree that apologetics is for everyone. Back when I first started getting in deep with the Junior HIgh ministry at my church the youth group at Living Way was led by Ike and he encouraged me to not let the students check their brain at the door but to push and challenge them not just spiritually but academically as well and that has really stuck with me until this day. I have seen so much fruit come from that. It's so vitally important that the church embraces apologetics. We live in a world where it is desperately needed more than ever.
"Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always being ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is within you, yet with gentleness and respect." 1 Peter 3:15
@@Remy4489 corrected. Thank you
This has been in my face for days and I testified at a revival on Saturday night.
Excellent discussion! The Knowledge of God in the World is on my to-read list!
I love this conversation! Alisa, praise God that you have so thoroughly learned this and God has put you in the path of these amazing thinkers and Christians. I learned a lot in this podcast but I would say it is still a few steps higher then a beginner understanding. Thankful that these resources are available!
Excellent discussion, the time flew! Thank you to all three.
I have just seen a documentary about the crimes of Adolf Eichman. Seeing pictures of the atrocities made me feel those affected by the holocaust deserve a well thought out evidence that God is good and that Jesus is messiah. If that is apologetics. John Lennox has taught me so much ...but it is the Spirit of God who gives the real understanding in my opinion.
It’s because God isn’t a thing and Jesus isn’t a real person! God is imagination and Jesus is imagining! They are personified to help us to try to grasp within ourselves! The kingdom is within you! This is why Gods name forever is I AM ( exodus 3.14) so what do you believe you are? If you are a body being pushed around by the world you will experience that!
@terrypaul7706 No personal offense intended, but your New Age beliefs are very disturbing and make the self a god. We ALL worship. The question is Who/who or What/what God/gods we worship.
@@justin10292000 what I am speaking of is ancient wisdom and you label it new age because you have never heard the truth of scripture! This is the part in the STORY where I show you which state of conscious awareness you are dwelling in… the pharassiee!! You blasphemer Jesus! You call yourself equal with God?!?!?’ No offence here but stone him 😂 you worship Satan as Jesus told them in the story! No offence 😜 it’s your state of awareness. I worship I AM. You are to worship I AM in YOU! Not Justin , the awareness of being that is aware of Justin! The same awareness that is in me because it’s in ALL and through ALL! Hear o israel the lord our God is ONE Lord!!! God is ONE! I AM in you father, and I in them and they in me! How Jesus who is you the reader?? That’s why it’s the revelation of Jesus Christ at the end!!! OR do you NOT know that Jesus Christ is in you?!?!?!?
@@justin10292000 bring your dead letter interpretation to me and I will give it life! 💪🏻
@justin10292000 ah listen to John Lennox - he makes this clear
Beautiful!! 😻
Great topic and interview! It would be SO helpful to put the name of the book in the description box when you interview authors. Thanks!
Arguing with an atheist is analogous to debating someone about whether or not air exists while you are BOTH breathing the air and would not be alive without it.
How did you rule out something you are not aware of as the explanation for the origin of our universe? How do you know the explanation is not something that is completely unintuitive that neither reason or logic can discover. From your comment, you claim that a god is as obvious as is air. How did you come to this conclusion?
Great truths in this interview! I really need to get their book.
I can not understand people who claim that the Big Bang is evidence against the existence of God when the opposite is true. The first popular critic of the Big Bang theory, famed astronomer Frédéric Hoyle who coined the term "Big Bang" adhered to a steady state model of cosmology. He opposed the idea of the universe having a beginning because that implies the necessity of a God. He claimed that the term was not intended to be derogatory despite choosing the word "bang" which implies an explosion in air which he knew is inaccurate.
_"I can not understand people who claim that the Big Bang is evidence against the existence of God when the opposite is true."_
Really? I've never heard a single person say that the so-called "Big Bang" is evidence against the existence of a god. Not *one.* At the same time, how is it evidence _of_ a god? That's equally silly, isn't it?
Admittedly, science has demonstrated that _some_ gods aren't real, I suppose. If you believe the creation story in the Bible happened _literally,_ then we have abundant evidence that god isn't real. But few Christians believe that. And there are lots of other gods you could believe exist.
It's silly, anyway. We don't need evidence against the existence of something which you have no good evidence _does_ exist. We don't need evidence that magic leprechauns _don't_ exist. If you believe in magic leprechauns, you need to provide evidence that they _are_ real. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
PS. Fred Hoyle had a lot of weird ideas (which was a _good_ thing in his role as a popular science fiction author). And he's been dead for more than twenty years. But for some reason, he seems to be the most popular scientist ever among Christian apologists. I'm not sure why. After all, he _disagreed_ with what has become the worldwide scientific consensus. And yet, scientists are still _far_ more likely to be atheists than people who know little or nothing about science.
The "big bang theory" does not imply the necessity of a god. It, in no way, addresses any origin of the energy/matter from which the present representation of the universe came
i didn't create myself and had no control over being born. I also have 0 control when i will die apart from taking my own life. I have no choice if I'm honest, then to believe their is a Creator being that there is creation.
_"I have no choice if I'm honest, then to believe their is a Creator being that there is creation."_
Is there? Do you have any *evidence* that there's a "creation"? Do you have even *one* piece of good evidence there's a "creation"? Why is *one* too much to ask?
The Earth exists. The universe exists. But there's no good evidence that either is a "creation," is there? Yes, if you can demonstrate "creation," then that implies a "creator." But since you can't actually do that,... so what?
@@Bill_Garthright It's tough to accept that the most plausible explanation isn't as fun or rewarding.
When you have evidence and truth on your side you don't need apologetics. Notice there are no 'gravity apologists' or 'round earth apologists'.
how do you get such incredible guests. lol.
I never thought that apologist were intellectual I’m any sense , but sure
The issue is not the evidence: the issue is the will to believe the evidence.
Either you are convinced by the evidence or you are not. Do you have faith in a god or do you have faith in the humans who made claims about a god?
A child desperately wants to continue believing in santa claus for a while after learning the truth about santa, doesn't make santa real.
Someone rising from the dead doesn't mean they created our universe.
I’ve left apologetics because it’s Intellectual elitism rooted in the pride of superior theology. You go to remote villages and see if all that grammar works. It’s easy to make videos and type on your keyboard. The fact that there’s no middle ground makes me realize this movement started with the intent of clarifying but has been infiltrated by the enemy. Everyone read the Bible and Ask God to reveal Himself to you
_"Everyone read the Bible and Ask God to reveal Himself to you"_
And when he doesn't?
I think you miss the point of apologetics, anyway. It's not to convince nonbelievers. It's just to comfort existing believers in whatever religion they were taught to believe as a child. Christian apologists make Christians feel good. Muslim apologists make Muslims feel good.
The point is just to preach to the choir. After all, it's always easy to convince people of something they already believe. As far as I can tell, if you're at all skeptical, no apologist wants to have anything to do with you.
Right on, cara.
As an atheist, I couldn't agree more about intellectual elitism. The theological contortions harmonizing apologists have to go through is consistent with what I would think any attempt to make a perfectly consistent narrative out of man-made stories. Just like attempts to get a consistent story out of all the Star Wars movies. Normal people just want simple to understand facts, and the beautiful thing about life is that even our most simplistic understanding of the world, e.g. gravity, heat, hunger, sex, etc. are clear enough that everyone can successfully incorporate them into their belief system.
I am enjoying the conversation, overall. But at about 25:00, one of the speakers said that there was no conflict between Science and the Bible. The context was the origin of the universe. Both science and the Bible agree that the universe had a beginning. The speaker was correct on that point. But there is a big disagreement about the age of the universe between scientists and people who read Genesis 1 literally. Currently, science tells us that the universe is about 14 billion years old and the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. But people who read Genesis 1 and Luke 3 literally conclude that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. Certainly, no more than 10,000 years old. Debates between Young Earth Creationists and Old Earth Creationists can become quite contentious, indeed! Both sides have their arguments. But let's not pretend that there is no conflict.
The conflict is between faith-based thinking and evidence-based thinking. No one believes the Bible because they have good evidence the Bible is true. Typically, they believe it because they were taught to believe it as a child and they really, really _want_ it to be true. Faith is a virtue in religion, but a vice in science.
Scientists weren't all atheists centuries ago, just picking the age of the universe because they wanted to disprove the Bible (not that Young Earth Creationists even _existed_ back then, as that seems to be a new invention of Christians). In the western world, at least, most were Christians just following the evidence.
_Now,_ of course, scientists - like philosophers - are far less likely to be Christian than people who know little or nothing about science (or philosophy), but that's just because the evidence didn't back up Christian claims, that's all.
But you can _still_ be a scientist and cling to the religion you were taught to believe as a child. That's still possible, because scientists are still human beings. Just because you understand that evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking, that doesn't mean you can't really, really _want_ your religion to be true. Again, scientists are still human.
Carbon dating, which is what they use, has been debunked and cannot be used to date inorganic materials.
Also, explain why a mammoth, standing upright with a buttercup in its mouth was found in striated rock layers. The flood and quick laying down of earth is the only explanation.
Never saw so much hate on Alissas videos before. Seems you woke the enemy sister. ❣️🙏 Someone is feeling threatened..
These atheist trolls are so utterly predictable! Attempting to explain spiritual Truth to an atheist is analogous to attempting to explain a symphony orchestra concert to someone who is deaf and blind.
I don't feel threatened when my children insist that they want to eat all their halloween candy at once. Perhaps a little frustrated, or bemused. Same here. The arguments are so bad. I get that they believe their theology can provide a consistent and harmonious message out of the writings compiled in the Bible, but in no way is it the most probable interpretation of them.
Why aren’t you speaking on the Israeli situation???
How is that admittedly horrific situation pertinent to the topic here?
Alisa, Doug and Andrew have a book of stories about a Hebrew god named Yahweh and his crucified son named Yeshua.
They believe the stories are true but cannot provide testable evidence apart from the improvement and happiness in their own lives from believing it.
Actual evidence for the existence of a compassionate, loving, wise Yahweh/Jesus or any god would be a simple matter of a physical appearance well documented with you tube videos and the immediate end of global suffering.
This is a nitpick. In your advertising you refer to "Angus quality". Angus is not a quality or grade of beef. Black Angus is a breed of cattle. The breed became associated with safety and goodness because the breed is supposed to be ( and may actually be) immune to mad cow desease. In the US beef quality is to USDA standards and ranges from US Prime down to US canner.
The Audio Groothuis is using is Poor
Apologist is for people who couldn't make it in the five fold ministry so sad. There like the fifth Beatle. Apologist say things like "what does the Bible say" like it talks or "biblical view" like it has an opinion. Apologists pride themselves in their biblical knowledge and hate correction. Apologist are very selective in what they teach from scriptures giving the illusion they're really knowledgeable of the Bible.
The “universe” is lying to you and using you for control.
The universe is not a sentient being.
Apologetics isn't for intellectuals at all. Things that are real don't need apologetics
How do you know that you exist?
So every known debate has been about unreal topics...?
1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, but with gentleness and respect;
@@leviwarren6222 And you are quoting the book of the Bible almost every scholar acknowledges as a forgery to make your case.
@@truncated7644"almost every scholar accepts as a forgery" is a lie.
Those who believe that the immaterial is possible, God exists and His name is YHWH believe that the Bible is true. There are a LOT of linguists and historians who do.
Apologetics is just preaching to the choir, isn't it? Christians seem absolutely _terrified_ of talking to nonbelievers. That's been my experience, at least. And why would you _need_ to defend your faith from people who already agree with you?
Lol. Apologetics is all about speaking to unbelievers. You are making a fool of yourself.
@@Pipers_hooman
Yeah? OK, let's test that, shall we? Let's talk. How about *one piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself,* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary. Just *one,* please. Why is *one* too much to ask?
Let's see if you're talking nonsense or not, shall we? I'm guessing you won't even _try._ But we'll see...
@@Pipers_hooman
So,... *nothing,* then? I guess my test worked, huh? :)
Miten sustakin on tullu tollanen narkkarin näkönen. Ennen ihan normin kasvit nyt on ku pelkkä pääkallo. Pirillä vai lihaliemillä?😂
Apologetics is a waste of the intellect. The Greek philosopher Aristotle in his book on Physics argues that the Earth had existed from eternity in the same basic form, there was no role for a creator. In the book of Genesis God created people Adam and Eve out of the Earth. But take a step back where does the Earth come from? It is ambiguous where the Earth came from in the Bible Genesis stories the 7 days one, and the Adam and Eve. When we think about this we want to see what we are implying here.. Because we have two images of God that are implicit in all of this. That is, God is creator. God is perfect. God understands is one kind of view that sees God as separate from creation. Yeah that He made the world that He understand this other that He made. The other view of God is that God is not separate. God is absolute. And it goes by humans beings are not separate nor independent of God. Paul said is not me but Christ who lives in me. One way people understand making something out of nothing babies that is a good one There were two people now there are three people, you know.
_"Apologetics is a waste of the intellect."_
I agree, but I think you miss the whole point of apologetics. It's not to convince nonbelievers. It's just to make existing believers feel good about whatever religion they were, typically, just taught to believe as a child. Christian apologists make Christians feel good. Muslim apologists make Muslims feel good.
And you don't need intellect for _that._ That's obvious, if you look at who is popular in apologetics - not that some apologists aren't intelligent, but just that you don't need anything but a convincing patter to be a popular apologist. You certainly don't need good *evidence.* That's because apologists are just preaching to the choir.
@@Bill_Garthright That is the point here. The goal of apologetics is to: Attract others including nonbelievers to the gospel. Defend the faith against objections from nonbelievers. and other world religions. Expose the perceived flaws of secular world views.
@@chardo24
Then why are Christian apologists absolutely _terrified_ of actually talking with an atheist?
Hey, if you've actually _got_ something, I want to hear it. I welcome talking with intelligent people who disagree with me about religion. After all, if I'm wrong, I want to know that, so I can change my mind. But you guys certainly don't want to talk to _me._ And that's especially the case when I ask for just one piece of good evidence backing up your religious beliefs.
Why is *one* too much to ask, just *one* piece of good evidence, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself?
But again, if you're telling the truth, then let's talk. It's been my experience that this is just what religious apologists say to their supporters. As far as I can tell, they don't actually want to _do_ that. But maybe you're different?
@@Bill_Garthright I dont pretend to have a right answer here. I have a sugestion. No evidence what's o ever - Just being being the best possible version of you. and this happens when you care for the world as much as yourself. Okay.
@@chardo24
And _none_ of that requires a belief in magic.
Otherwise, I don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. That's a no, then? You have nothing distinguishable from wishful-thinking and you're not willing to talk about it? Yeah, no surprise.
I hope you have something new to offer, and not just the same old debunked arguments you lot keep repeating.
The arguments for the existence of God have not been debunked. Those who argue against Him are lying when they say they have.
@@markhorton3994
They really have. Just type the name of the argument and "debunked" onto google and see all the times it has been debunked.
They did not. The cosmological argument is addressed by presupposing that the cosmos, of which our universe is just one instantiation, always existed (kind of like God). It is simpler and therefore to be preferred. I have evidence the cosmos exists, there is none for an invisible, non-material God. That doesn't prove anything, but it is equally, if not more probable than a theistic position.
As for intelligent design, seriously I think Alisa is no longer an honest apologist to not acknowledge the many, many refutations of their evidence, especially the rotating flagellum. Science can explain that easily, just as it does the numerous independent evolutionary developments of eyes and wings.
AND, whenever pinned down on actual Christian beliefs, like the trinity, incarnation, suffering, meaning of the resurrection, or even heaven, Groothuis admits it is a mystery. MYSTERY. Seriously, those issues are at the core of the faith he professes, and that's what he has to offer. Atheists don't have all the answers, but we also don't pretend to.
@@truncated7644The existence of a multiverse, which almost no cosmologists accept does not affect the cosmological argument. THIS space time continuum has been observed to be expanding. That expansion cannot have extended indefinitely into the past. THIS space time continuum as we know it had a beginning. Nothing begins without a cause. God is that cause.
Your making up indults about Alisa's sincerity is offensive. You can not know what she believes. She has produced videos debunking the arguments you claim debunk apologetics.
The intelligent design argument does not depend on the examples you mentioned. The greatest problem that science cannot explain and intelligent design does is the origin of life. The function of a single cell dependd on many complex systems. Proteins, DNA, RNA, mitochondria and much more. The finest biochemists are not even close to learning all the details of how a cell operates. The more they learn the more they discover that they don't know. If any element of the functioning of a single cell is missing or defective it is not a living cell. It could not just happen all at once.
@@truncated7644if evolution is real, explain why we aren't seeing evolutionary stages of ANYTHING in nature. There should be thousands of examples of evidence of a link. But there aren't. Did everything just suddenly stop evolving?? Humans look the exact same in all of recorded history. Dogs aren't evolving. They assert that there is a "missing link" which absolves them of having to supply proof. The "missing link" cannot be proven. So it doesn't exist, right?
Well apologetics should also not be for dumbasses, lest they bring embarrassment and disgrace upon the faith.
This statement is why I’ve left apologetics. Intellectual elitism rooted in pride of superior theology. You go to remote villages and see if all that grammar works. It’s easy to make videos and type on your keyboard.
@@caramelcocoa234But it is necessary if you want to attempt to have a logically consistent world view. The reason it ends up in the realm of esoteric philosophy is because it isn't based on reality. Take God out of the picture and just assume that the universe we have is a part of an eternal cosmos and everything will simply falls into place and is what it is.