Preview: Stokowski's Demented Tchaikovsky Fourth and His 10 Best Recordings
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
- Stokowski did some wild things in his long and illustrious (and lustrous) career, but nothing crazier than the coda to the finale of this Tchaikovsky Fourth Symphony. Check out the insanity here, and then tune in for his best recordings over at ClassicsToday,com. If you're not already an "Insider" subscriber, please consider signing up here:
www.classicstoday.com/classic... - Hudba
How thrilling that you chose the "reference" recording that you did -- what a surprise! The timpanist on that very recording was a wonderful friend and mentor of mine. He taught the former timpanist of the Philadelphia Orchestra, who dedicated some wonderful books to him, INCLUDING "how to play" this very symphony (Tchaikovsky, Brahms, etc.). Amazingly, I was asked to create & conduct an orchestral suite of favorite works this timpanist enjoyed for his very well-attended funeral, which I considered to be the honor of a lifetime. He introduced me to this symphony (& many others) as a member of his youth orchestra. How wonderful that you have honored him, in a way, by choosing his performance to show "how Tchaikovsky ought to be played."
What a wonderful story! I had a similar smile listening to this wonderful recording, as Utah’s principal cellist in it is most likely Ryan Selberg, playing on the cello he would later sell to my teacher and which I had the honour of playing a few times myself!
I was extremely lucky to have been at the performance in New York City with the American Symphony Orchestra of Stokowski Tchaikovsky 4th.
Sitting in the front row next to the timpani, drums, percussion. Could not believe my ears! It was an orgasmic experience! After the performance and a bonus Encore of Scriabin the Maestro said he will be recording the work the following day! (This is the Vanguard recording).
Amazing, truly amazing.
So happy you're looking at Stoki...I'm the hugest Stoki nut... and I totally agree - his total conviction and utterly thrilling music making is what ultimately matters 💗😈
Greetings from W 65th...
Yasss
Dave, you make me look forward to Mondays, if you can believe me 😂
Excellent, Dave! I remember a rehearsal of Stokowski regarding free bowing, which was very unusual for the orchestra as they never used this free bowing technique with other conductors. He told to them „ Give them what they want. Give ME what I want!“
Well, I always look forward to Tchaikovsky content on your channel, as he's my favorite composer. I guess in this case, even weird Tchaikovsky content. I seem to remember hearing once on CZcams, a recording of Stokowski, in which he did the same weirdness in the 1812! My favorite piece! With the random tempo changes, and the chorus at the end without the orchestra, and I don't even remember if there were cannon or not. Most unusual.
EDIT: So I just went and searched for it and found two versions, both of which had cannons but only on the first volley of 5 and not at the end, and the second had the ending chorus with the orchestra coming in later, and random tempo changes, and he cut a few notes from the end on both, and the bells were rather overwhelming. It's just wrong in so many ways it's almost funny.
David... I love it. I remember hearing his recording of the 4th with the NBC Symphony Orchestra (I think) many years ago when I was first exploring Tchaikovsky recordings. I was mesmerised. Then I discovered the Vanguard recording... From the opening chords augmented with extra brass, you know you are in for a real treat. Great that you are covering his repertoire... 👍🏻
Great Content!!! I know - I was expecting it to be crazy fast but was 😮 when it slowed and then from out of nowhere sfzzzzzzz with ecstasy wallop followed by wtf pulse Tam Tam over thank you mam. If I was in the audience I would have fallen out of my chair. Worth the price of admission I
I have the Stokowski Tchaikovsky Fourth with the Philadelphia Orchestra from the late 30s or early 40s. Even back then he was doing it exactly the same way in the coda.
I have that recording on the Pearl label. I second that comment. One of my cd's that I'll never sell.
@10:57 reminds me of the way Curley of the Three Stooges used to laugh: "nyuck, nyuck, nyuck". I love this performance.
Ha! I don't even have to click on the link. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about, and you nailed it.
Hilarious; having read your comment, I laughed out loud when 10:57 arrived (and being a big Stooges fan..as I am..really helps!) LR
Simply GREAT video!! Informative and very entertaning! Thankyou!!
I have the High Fidelity magazine where a critic wrote his review of this recording as such:
Stokowski is courting disaster,
When he takes every "f" to mean "faster."
He pulls phrases like taffy,
The ensemble's all daffy,
Distressing, indeed, from a master.
Not sure who it was. Who was it?
Ohh, that final acceleration was like stomping down fences in the abandon of a wild kazachok! Really crazy dynamics, but they DO pique the interest for both the conductor (duh) and the composer alike. I have heard a couple too many "safe" Finales to the Tchai 4th, and I am willing to appreciate this one for what it is - a personal take on a well-known piece. Really, if Stokowski was as inventive in most of his recordings, I'm going hunting for all of his recordings!
Meanwhile, I also get the urge to clean my palate by listening to the 4th from, say, Markevitch.
This Tchaikovsky 4 falls under the category of redeemable chutzpah.
LOL!
That is just WILD! I love it!
Monday Madness... This made my day!
Thanks for this very nicley put and much deserved stand for Stokowski.
Stoki's "Love Saves the Day" version of Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Fantasy-Overture is another wild one - cutting only the last angry four bars. Strange! One of my favorites, however, is his editorialized developing tam-tam crescendo at the conclusion of Mars from Holst's "The Planets"
Hahaha. Reminds me of Beecham's response to criticism of his stereo version of the Messiah (with nineteenth century percussion etc) "But Handel would have loved it"...
What a different with Stokowsky 5th Sym! That's amazing.
thank you very mutch for your 10 selections of stokowski best recording...i approve your choice...stokowski is my best conductor...,since mutch mutch year i search all recording of this conductor...with him , this is very ecxiting and interessting to listen a music,,,,so,i want.. if you want, to give to you my choice of five best recording of stokowski,who i listen mutch and mutch time with a real pleasure.......1...the swan of tuolenia ( sibelius) ( emi)...2.....bizet l'arlesienne suite ( cbs)...3...tchaikovsky,swan lake suite( london phase 4)....and finally..4,debussy the sunken cathedral ( la cathédrale engloutie)( london phase 4)....and my TOP.....stokowsky -mousorgsky, boris godounov-symphonic synthese ( london phase 4)
Okay, you convinced me to have an insider Abo. I like Stokowski for all his crazyness!
Thank you!
Can’t wait to jump over to Classics Today insider to see the full video as a dedicated Stokowski nutso. There’s one performance I really hope made your Top Ten - it rhymes with Shostakovich Shmeleven with Shmhouston.
I'm a Skoki fan but, yeah, there are times I can't accept some of his wayward and often deflating interpretive choices. I'm going to give this one a passing grade only because it gave me a hearty laugh, and a good laugh is welcome in these crazy times.
I was expecting and hoping you'd get to a Stokie top ten. Great. I never did like his lopping off the end of the Tchaik R&J, though. But he did a live Pathetique on tour in the old USSR which is the most thrilling I've ever heard.
P.S. I'm eagerly looking forward to a top ten Beecham!
When there's talk about authentic and historically informed performances I often question how authentic the emotional drive is behind them. Approve of Stokowski or not no one can say he was without emotional energy and commitment.
I listened to the Tchaikovsky Fourth from Japan, Beethoven Eroica, Brahms 4th and then many of the Bach transcriptions in the past days and found myself totally immersed emotionally and the question of authenticity became less important for me.
If one reflects on Stokowski's early connection as an organist with J.S. Bach and his intimate knowledge of the pieces he transcribed it appears he heard music through that experience and then the rest of history of music to come. Whether the organ like sonority in Brahms or the clarity of the contrapuntal writing in the Eroica it all appears to stem from his love of Bach casting his sight on everything to come right up through Schoenberg, Shostakovich, Stravinksy, Ives, etc. and that seems pretty authentic to me. Stokowski's authenticity was his passionate love of music and his ability to share that. It's not the only way nor would I want it to be but it does demand respect.
I came to Stokowski later in my life through recording. I could have heard him live in the 1960s in New York and choose not to because friends told me he was a "fraud"! I should have "kept on listening" for my self. I can only wonder what a live Stoki performance might have been.
Well said!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank You David :)
OMG! That was fun.
And to think, I always thought that Bugs Bunny playing the part of "Leopold!" was the most demented.
Sometimes, it is Leopold playing the part of Bugs Bunny... with gusto!
Stokowski was mainly a genial showman. I think he always strived to extract máximum excitement and power of the music he performed acting somewhat as a Demiurg, taming sounds while standing in his solitary podium, with the only light on the stage falling over him, --as I heard he used in Philadelphia--, somewhat remaining me Mickey Mouse in The Sorcerer's Apprentice segment of Phantasia, playing with the stars. In this weird coda I'd like to speculate that Stokowsky felt the stroke of the inexorable fate was so devastating, that the only way to deal with him was forget it for the moment by getting drunk. That is what those ilogic ritardandi and weird accelerandi make me feel. Stokowski's hero surely was saturated with vodka... Keep listening from Mexico, now from the inside.
Well, .... Furtwängler in comparison looks like a faithful servant of the pristine score !!
DEMENTED! The Hurwitz Lexicon is great. Not terribly interested in Stokowski, but there is something to look forward to in your videos anyway. (I might stumble into a Stokowski phase because of it.)
Those changes in Tempo were so abrupt and extreme, it sounded like the soundtrack to a Tom&Jerry cartoon 😵😵.
One tiny correction...the 60 Minutes interview of Stoki is with Dan Rather. The one with Horowitz is with Mike Wallace. Both available on CZcams and worth a watch. Still love this insight.
Yes, something like that!
This made me want to go listen to Igor Markevitch's Tchaikovsky recordings. :)
BTW, on an unrelated note, can someone help me decide on a recording of Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ? I'm torn between Charles Munch and Sir Colin Davis myself.
Andre Cluytens too, his second, stereo version.
I’m partial to the earliest Davis recording, Peter Pears tells the story better than anyone (though Gedda on Cluytens is beautifully sung) and Davis always knew how to make Berlioz come alive
Dave, I'm pretty sure that it was Dan Rather who Stokie walked out on.
On the other hand, Mike Wallace had a very cordial chat with Horowitz. Nobody walked out.
I saw both of these interviews when originally broadcast.
Yes, already mentioned, but thanks.
After a day of introspection and soul-searching, I offer the following:
Tchaikovsky conducted by Stokie
Is far more demented than hokey;
If you claim no aversion
To his willful perversion,
Then your nose will extend like Pinocchi.. (ohhh...the reader's groan provides the final syllable of the name). LR
That’s a real Springtime for Hitler moment from the maestro.
Quoting from the classic Hollywood film ' nobody does it like stokowski''
The interview david was with Dan rather
Whatever.
Stokowski conducted the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra in the 1960s: Beethoven 5 and Hovhaness Mysterious Mountain. Even during the Shaw and Levi eras, I cannot remember the ASO pouring out such sonority. Another demented recording of Tchaikovsky 4 mvt IV is the Mravinsky/Leningrad stereo DGG. It also is perversely thrilling (but without Stokies' liberties) and I just have to laugh at the end. Mravinsky's precision-machinery string players display superhuman speed and ensemble, resulting in both awe and a Looney Tunes, comic absurdity.
Interesting! Mravinsky is fast but I've never heard it referred to as "demented." It's too serious for that!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Seriously demented? Mravinsky could do that too, under full laboratory control of course.
Well, Stokovsky might have been a good conductor but such a self centered and not the nicest person. Toskanini on the other hand was amazing human being.
I really liked MTT and San Francisco Symphony's performance of the 4th. I was there during the performance and I was breathless. The 2nd movement and oboe
were heavenly, out of this world, the best I ever heard. It certainly wasn't perverse
Funny how Stokowski demands a 100%, but when asked after his Beethoven 5th piano concerto with Gould if they should have rehearse more, he replied with a plain: Yes.
You only have so much time.
I had to review :53-54 to be sure my ears weren't lying. Never mind how demented, I'd gladly pay to hear how Tchaikovsky recorded the piece a couple of times. (lol)
I honestly don't believe that any conductor in Tchaikovsky's day could get an orchestra to do so well what Stokowski does. How on earth do they manage to follow him?
Almost painful to listen to. Hanslick had a phrase that he used "music that stinks in the ear" that might apply.
Yep. That's about as demented as it comes.
Man. Did he pull this thing apart like taffy! Unbelievable. I'm a big Stokie fan, and often his messing with the score works (case in point: ending of the New World slow movement); but here he might have gone a wee bit too far. :D
Just a wee bit.
Strong...and wrong. Oh so wrong it is almost wonderful.
Exactly. Almost.
Probably the Best (Worst??) example of the demented Stokie at work. If you didn't know it was "The Old Wizard" himself, you'd swear this was an outrageous, intentionally comedic parody of the work.
3 Thoughts: 1.) I've played the cymbal part in Tchaik 4 a couple of times and, instead of adding a crash in the final bar, I played the final printed crash as LOUDLY as possible and let the cymbals ring through to the end. Sort of the "best of both worlds."
2.) When I recently asked the Chicago's Symphony's legendary principal trombonist Jay Friedman (who's been in the CSO since '63) how the musicians ever put up with Stokowski's perverse reading of, say, the Beethoven 8th, Jay replied "They didn't mind; everybody loved him."
3.) GREAT STOKOWSKI: Vaughan Williams 8th Symphony, BBC (Sept. '64) ..at last a conductor who gives the big, gorgeous climax near the end of the 1st Mvt the grandeur that it deserves. The composer didn't mark it that way, you say? He should have. LR
Love your talks on conductors ! UK critics, you gotta love them...actually I don't but you'd get a chuckle from a box set review in the recent BBC Music Magazine of recordings by Anthony Collins.He is referred to as "a great conductor". The set contains "a complete and cracking Sibelius symphony cycle" A chacun son gout !
Oy!
Is it just me, or are you applauding the... nuttiness of Stockowski but not so much Mitropoulos's? I wouldn't call the first nuts, by the way, just plain old usual Megalomaniac with little regard to the composer. As Currnzis confessed in his Russian interview( though my russian is a bit rusty, I understood that) he wants to be a rock star(direct quote),Stokowski said he wanted to be like a movie-star, and be paid as much, which he did.
Thanks, Dave! Eye-opening!!! And ear-closing! As Leopold's self-ingratiating elements of dementia unfolded---those ridiculous tempi contrasts---I kept exclaiming to myself, "Oh NO!" I cannot TOLERATE unnecessary and distractingly presto tempi changes, which have the opposite effect of the conductor's intention of "setting off" one section from the other, but mainly sound like his/her power-play to get the orchestra to work harder, meanwhile the music suffers and the listeners are ripped-off of a longer, more listenable experience!!
Tchaikovsky's 4th contains both one of his greatest achievements (first movement), as well as one of his most abysmal and embarrassing failures (final movement). The finale, in my opinion, is by far the weakest movement in any of his symphonies, both structurally and regarding the quality of the thematic material. It deserves everything Stokowski inflicts on it, and then some, lol.
Well, I disagree about that finale. I think it's quite successful, actually, and lot's of fun. Stoki just makes it even funner.
Leopold S absolutely BUTCHERS Tchaikovsky s 4th. !! The composer would be rolling in his grave if he every heard it !!!!
I had forgotten how vulgar, tasteless, just god-awful that Stokowski version was. Constantin Silvestri also made a complete mess of the symphony by misreading the Fate rhythm consistently. Tchaikovsky deserves better.
Was there some basis for the Silvestri version of that motif? Hard to believe so fine a conductor simply misread the score.
The Stokowski recording made me throw up. Ugh. A one-year prison term for everyone responsible for that recording would have been too kind.
It is truly awful. Sorry to trample on your "fun". It is completely wayward, terrible conducting, and terrible leadership.
Oh come on Jeff. It is GREAT conducting as such, you have to admit. I mean, he gets them to do what he wants, somehow. I do find the result grotesque. That's why I chose it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough. Stokowski is a hero of mine for obvious reasons. The dude was responsible for American and World premieres of literally all the coolest new modern works.-Ameriques, Salome, etc etc. He is THE MAN. That said, the recording you posted sounds like the orchestra hasn't a clue of what he is doing. Also, musically it makes no sense. You have to admit, the mark of a great conductor is one who can not only convince a group of the value of his or her musical actions, but one who can adequately convey these things physically and spiritually. The musicians sound like they are flailing, which is not the Stokowski trademark. His performances are always imbued with perfect movement and sonority. Sorry, not this one.
@@jeffreymilarsky3246 Well, if you say so. I don't think "perfect movement" was what he was after here. When you're pulling taffy, you can't complain if the finished product sticks to your teeth.