"You're asking me what it would take for me to go against my principles. And, the answer is... 500 dollars. That's how much it takes to buy my morality." - Rishi 2020
I think tier list discussions are really fun because they let you think about the game in abstract or “ideal” terms, which is enjoyable in a thought-experiment kind of way, especially for people will never get to play at that ideal. They get annoying when people (usually new players) start to use them as actual representations of how the game is played.
There's also the difference between what's practically ideal for a human and what's ideal in theory. The line between the two is often both overestimated and underestimated, particularly by newer players, but really everyone to some degree. But that's what makes Melee great-it's far from objective and will always be pushed as long as people are playing.
Love to see more rishi melee analysis. BTW I believe if you rewrite the timestamps with just a space (no dashes) youtube should automatically show the video segments
IC's without wobbling are the same type of character as Yoshi, sure they have stuff but you have to work way harder than with most other characters to actually meet that.
This is my favorite tier list I've seen from a top player/notable community so far in all my years of Melee. I think utility should be the standard for ranking characters for everyone from now on. Plus I really like that you acknowledge that the miniscule differences between characters really doesn't matter at all. Overall I entirely agree with this list except for a three things. I'd move Mewtwo to D or D.5, Link to D.5, and Pichu to E. If we're talking utility, Mewtwo has the best recovery in the game, which should be valued higher imo. I also think his potential if pushed harder with up-b edge cancels and other tech just make him a stronger character than Roy or G&W. His movement has the potential for him to reliably get out of the corner for free basically. So between that and his recovery he has some strengths that allow him effectively skip past certain parts of the game, kind of like Puff. Link I would move down because he doesn't offer anything the other characters above him can. Sure he has fewer weaknesses and some better matchups than YL. But this is a utility tier list, not a viability tier list. And I think Pichu should be moved up because his weaknesses aren't as bad as they seem imo. Damaging himself often doesn't contribute all that much to a stock. And he can deal with cc to an extent because he has good enough aerial drift to cross up well. Between that and how strong his movement and nair are, I think he's solidly in E tier.
Being a utility based tier list I feel Zelda should be way higher, since you are never really forced to play her and the few good things she has (recovery mostly) are pretty good when they are good
I think this is the better way to order a tierlist honestly, haven't thought about it before this before either. About IC's I do think it's both fair and unfair to say you could just learn the new cool desyncs and punishes, if we patched out jump out of shine to nerf Fox and Falco, I think we would see a lot of Spacies swap away from them even if many things still would be the same, like Fox up throw uair, ledgedash turnaround uptilt and so forth. People would still compain a LOT instead of trying to find new ways around new problems.
I like that Rishi actually thought (and talked) about what tiers mean, but if we are focusing on utility, I feel like Zelda has to have some mention to her very unique capability. Zelda improves Sheik in some very, very minute ways, but she does improve her and it comes at absolutely no cost since you can freely change back and forth. Even if that doesn't end up going into the chart I think if you talk about utility it at the very least has to be mentioned.
I agree with the Yoshi's untapped potential comment, adding that playing on the level required to reach this potential takes too much of a brutal toll in longer tournaments. Yoshi can stay on C tier.
I'm a yoshi pure and yes many things which easily kill spacies does not work against really good players and in larger tournaments, but also just playing on net play there are lots of cases where a high tier starts off strong but loses their steam come game 4 or 5
Comparing eggs to turnips is an unfair comparison because they're used completely differently and don't translate. Using eggs on stage is almost always a bad idea because there are no follow ups and they have a lot of lag, taking 54 frames, or nearly a full second, to finish. They are basically only viable as an edge guard tool, or as a way to get off ledge. Peach uses turnips for many reasons like making up for her range against Marth, a combo tool, edge guarder, and pressure. I also think most Peach players are relying on partial match up unfamiliarity, not only because she's a less common character at upper levels but also like Falcon she's a very versatile character and many won't be ready for some of the differences between Peach player styles. This is something Yoshi players clearly already capitalize on as the only good Yoshi players that come to mind are Nebbii, aMSa, n3z, and v3ctorman, and Yoshi is clearly a very versatile character as well if you watch them. I really do think if aMSa moved to America, which he won't, we would see a lot more people ranking Yoshi a bit higher. I think in a perfect world Yoshi would be slightly above Falcon to be honest, and I know that's a pretty hot take.
If anyone argues that Ganon is worse than the Mario's, just watch n0ne's Ganon. His slow movement is made up for with his wavelands and wave dashing and I think his slower mobility helps him out in that way because while Falcon could do what n0ne does with his Ganon, its just not humanly possible to do a lot of it due to Falcon's speed. Low key his up air and jab are what make him decent. I agree with your placing.
I think the ledge and time rules need to be adjusted to reduce the ability to hard-camp. I'm conflicted though because changing those rules artificially benefits characters that would otherwise have less tools to deal with camping and harm characters that rely on camping as part of their kit, so idk. My recommendation would be something like limiting the number of times in a match a player can do ledge-camping to like 5 or something. A camping session can be determined by regrabbing the ledge four times without hitting the opponent or being hit. At this point, the Player can regrab the ledge however many times as the community seems appropriate, but I personally wouldn't make it any less than 20, because otherwise the strategy is null entirely. Changes similar to this I feel would facilitate more interesting gameplay without completely ruining ledge-camping as a strategy. I'm interested in any conversation about this.
These sorts of rules are really dangerous, especially when enacted just to limit a type of gameplay you personally don't find interesting. Tough biscuits, if you're not interested, watch another game.
@@Gakoranus it's less about whether or not I personally find it interesting and more about patching an artificially over-advantaged interaction. I'm also not advocating a "no ledge-camping" rule, I just think there's a place for testing some adjustments to the current rules to find a balance that players generally find more fun and fair.
@@someeggplant Yeah sorry I was in a bad mood when I dropped that comment. I can see a place for a rule change if it increased the pool of viable champs or something, but I think changes like this are super likely to just reinforce the top tier in melee. My experience with balance changes in video games is that they are almost always bad for your competitive format.
Does Rishi know that can Peach cc Puff's bair up til like 40% and counter attack using subfloat? She also has a projectile advantage and isn't susceptible to the wall of pain and several rest setups like most characters. I don't think she has to work much harder than other characters have to.
No kill setups means Puff gets to live to much higher percents than vs other characters. Numerous attacks Peach has are unsafe vs Puff and she can get CCed rested. You can't edgeguard Puff, so Peach loses one of her strongest attributes and the key method she gets kills. Bair also out ranges all of Peach's moves.
@@Prodigial Peach does have kill setups with turnips. Sweetspotted usmash is incredibly strong. It's not the most consistent, but Peach doesn't get rested easily. Peach is like the only character with true shield pressure and +4 aerials on shield. Float canceling is faster than L canceling. Her high dash attack and jab are anti-airs. Turnip screens are very safe. Peach has lots of options. Bair beating all of Peach's moves is simply not true. Peach's own Bair is disjointed and lasts longer. Diagonal bair approaches beat Puff's Bair cleanly. Peach can also ASDI down Puff's aerials using subfloat and counterattack. One of her key attributes that she keeps in the MU is hitting like a truck with nair/fair/Dsmash. Does living longer matter if Peach can kill Puff at like 70% with usmash? Or threaten Dsmash spam at 100? You're also forgetting that Puff recovers slowly so Peach can farm stitch faces/dot eyes.
Bro you are beyond tripping if you think Lugi is worse than yoshi, pikachu, dk, gannon, samus. Ur on crack my dude. Luigi has a massive wave dash, thats what he brings. Hella good combo game on everyone, hella insane punish game, hella insane bait game, hella good moves, all his throws are good, hella options, hella kill options, the only matchup Luigi gets pooped on is swordies Luigi has a shitload more options than pikachu, yoshi, samus, Gannon, and dk, idk what ur thinking
I fully feel that sticking to one character is way more optimal. Taking the L's and gaining the mu exp is WAY more valuable than potentially dual maining
"NOTE: I hate tier lists" then don't make them jfc this one is garbage. Puff, Falcon, Mewtwo placement all scuffed as hell and the disparity in C tier basically makes it meaningless as a grouping
Im going to preface this with i still haven't watched all of the video i only watched the preface and D.5 I really dont understand what is being talked about in this tier list. I know you said utility but you really haven't explained utility. In a normal game you would describe utility as multipurpose. In an average shooter a utility gun could be something that is average in handling stats slightly below average in short range great but not the best in mid range and passable in long range however if the game favors long range engagements then that gun drops in quality significantly in a different game. While i only watched a small amount of this video im confused on how a character can have utility. You talk about things like combo ability off grab, recovery, disjoints and much more yet never actually explain what it is you are talking about and i know its not aboutbeingyour secondary or solo maining. The biggest problem i have with this framing is unlike in a shooter your opponent matters way more and i don't mean the person but the actual character you are against. DK's combos off grabs go away against floatier characters luigi's bad recovery may not be as bad against ice climbers as it is against fox. I genuinely dont know what you mean by saying Ganon, DK Link, and Young Link have better utility than characters that are conventionally considered better than them. What utility are they providing you? The only real utility i can think of is match up spread which is what normal tier list are kind of based on anyway.
Rishi content 😍
junebug content 😍
rishi 😍
You're not Rishi?
"You're asking me what it would take for me to go against my principles. And, the answer is... 500 dollars. That's how much it takes to buy my morality." - Rishi 2020
I think tier list discussions are really fun because they let you think about the game in abstract or “ideal” terms, which is enjoyable in a thought-experiment kind of way, especially for people will never get to play at that ideal. They get annoying when people (usually new players) start to use them as actual representations of how the game is played.
There's also the difference between what's practically ideal for a human and what's ideal in theory. The line between the two is often both overestimated and underestimated, particularly by newer players, but really everyone to some degree. But that's what makes Melee great-it's far from objective and will always be pushed as long as people are playing.
Well said!
G tier is like an incorrect charging cable, but if the opponent lacks mu knowledge, you can still choke them out with that cable
Lmao
Love to see more rishi melee analysis. BTW I believe if you rewrite the timestamps with just a space (no dashes) youtube should automatically show the video segments
IC's without wobbling are the same type of character as Yoshi, sure they have stuff but you have to work way harder than with most other characters to actually meet that.
Yea but desync combos tho
@@Hartkn33 yea that’s what he meant de sync combos are good but way harder to set up and execute than say a Marth chaingrab
This is my favorite tier list I've seen from a top player/notable community so far in all my years of Melee. I think utility should be the standard for ranking characters for everyone from now on. Plus I really like that you acknowledge that the miniscule differences between characters really doesn't matter at all.
Overall I entirely agree with this list except for a three things. I'd move Mewtwo to D or D.5, Link to D.5, and Pichu to E.
If we're talking utility, Mewtwo has the best recovery in the game, which should be valued higher imo. I also think his potential if pushed harder with up-b edge cancels and other tech just make him a stronger character than Roy or G&W. His movement has the potential for him to reliably get out of the corner for free basically. So between that and his recovery he has some strengths that allow him effectively skip past certain parts of the game, kind of like Puff.
Link I would move down because he doesn't offer anything the other characters above him can. Sure he has fewer weaknesses and some better matchups than YL. But this is a utility tier list, not a viability tier list.
And I think Pichu should be moved up because his weaknesses aren't as bad as they seem imo. Damaging himself often doesn't contribute all that much to a stock. And he can deal with cc to an extent because he has good enough aerial drift to cross up well. Between that and how strong his movement and nair are, I think he's solidly in E tier.
G&W easy d.5-d tho
I love the thumbnail with DK as S tier and Roy in A tier xD
I dont understand, wheres Sephiroth
he's F tier cuz he's so broken he gets banned so he can't do anything ;D
Lol I don’t understand why are you subbed to me?
Read more
@@luisitobecerra fuck i tried to press it soo many times fuckkkk
@@filthycasul1804 h tier
only having fox falco and marth in the "clear best" category is extremely based
Yeah puff is done dirty
Based on ntsc 1.02 :)
11:55 fox approach guide
how you gonna do the mario bros like that
Real life fox cameo. Very high profile
1 hour long Rishi video? Santa DID deliver this year.
godlike thumbnail
thank you for putting the picture of the fox in this video :-)
Dk's best character in the game thumbnail aged perfectly well.
Let's go!
can't say i expected to see a real fox in this video but it was a pleasant surprise
Being a utility based tier list I feel Zelda should be way higher, since you are never really forced to play her and the few good things she has (recovery mostly) are pretty good when they are good
_Bowser is dysentery_
I think this is the better way to order a tierlist honestly, haven't thought about it before this before either.
About IC's I do think it's both fair and unfair to say you could just learn the new cool desyncs and punishes, if we patched out jump out of shine to nerf Fox and Falco, I think we would see a lot of Spacies swap away from them even if many things still would be the same, like Fox up throw uair, ledgedash turnaround uptilt and so forth. People would still compain a LOT instead of trying to find new ways around new problems.
I love what Rishi content does to my brain
based
Nope, you are nitpicking and biased, I win, bye bye.
That thumbnail is wholesome
I like that Rishi actually thought (and talked) about what tiers mean, but if we are focusing on utility, I feel like Zelda has to have some mention to her very unique capability. Zelda improves Sheik in some very, very minute ways, but she does improve her and it comes at absolutely no cost since you can freely change back and forth.
Even if that doesn't end up going into the chart I think if you talk about utility it at the very least has to be mentioned.
I agree with the Yoshi's untapped potential comment, adding that playing on the level required to reach this potential takes too much of a brutal toll in longer tournaments. Yoshi can stay on C tier.
I'm a yoshi pure and yes many things which easily kill spacies does not work against really good players and in larger tournaments, but also just playing on net play there are lots of cases where a high tier starts off strong but loses their steam come game 4 or 5
well now we know for an absolute fact that it can be done
@@yurifairy2969 amsa is a god
Comparing eggs to turnips is an unfair comparison because they're used completely differently and don't translate. Using eggs on stage is almost always a bad idea because there are no follow ups and they have a lot of lag, taking 54 frames, or nearly a full second, to finish. They are basically only viable as an edge guard tool, or as a way to get off ledge. Peach uses turnips for many reasons like making up for her range against Marth, a combo tool, edge guarder, and pressure.
I also think most Peach players are relying on partial match up unfamiliarity, not only because she's a less common character at upper levels but also like Falcon she's a very versatile character and many won't be ready for some of the differences between Peach player styles. This is something Yoshi players clearly already capitalize on as the only good Yoshi players that come to mind are Nebbii, aMSa, n3z, and v3ctorman, and Yoshi is clearly a very versatile character as well if you watch them. I really do think if aMSa moved to America, which he won't, we would see a lot more people ranking Yoshi a bit higher. I think in a perfect world Yoshi would be slightly above Falcon to be honest, and I know that's a pretty hot take.
When are we getting a Rishi's Jungle Jam Tier List?
Wow so nice watching someone spend the time explaining their thoughts on a tier list
Yoshi would be at B with Peach nowadays, because of a better Marth match up.
Damn you're so lucky, I don't think I've ever seen a fox in the wild where I live, let alone had one walk up to my window :(
I'd say a skilled Roy is probably up there with Falco marth and fox
If anyone argues that Ganon is worse than the Mario's, just watch n0ne's Ganon. His slow movement is made up for with his wavelands and wave dashing and I think his slower mobility helps him out in that way because while Falcon could do what n0ne does with his Ganon, its just not humanly possible to do a lot of it due to Falcon's speed. Low key his up air and jab are what make him decent. I agree with your placing.
ics still have a really good combo game the you can learn off grab that takes skill like every other character
Doc and Luigi below Ganon and YL, wild. Also, Bowser is like E tier on Yoshi's, right? So maybe should be a biiit higher than I guess Kirby
Huh I guess today was a good day to be randomly binging Rishi videos?
I think the ledge and time rules need to be adjusted to reduce the ability to hard-camp. I'm conflicted though because changing those rules artificially benefits characters that would otherwise have less tools to deal with camping and harm characters that rely on camping as part of their kit, so idk.
My recommendation would be something like limiting the number of times in a match a player can do ledge-camping to like 5 or something. A camping session can be determined by regrabbing the ledge four times without hitting the opponent or being hit. At this point, the Player can regrab the ledge however many times as the community seems appropriate, but I personally wouldn't make it any less than 20, because otherwise the strategy is null entirely.
Changes similar to this I feel would facilitate more interesting gameplay without completely ruining ledge-camping as a strategy. I'm interested in any conversation about this.
These sorts of rules are really dangerous, especially when enacted just to limit a type of gameplay you personally don't find interesting. Tough biscuits, if you're not interested, watch another game.
@@Gakoranus it's less about whether or not I personally find it interesting and more about patching an artificially over-advantaged interaction. I'm also not advocating a "no ledge-camping" rule, I just think there's a place for testing some adjustments to the current rules to find a balance that players generally find more fun and fair.
@@someeggplant Yeah sorry I was in a bad mood when I dropped that comment. I can see a place for a rule change if it increased the pool of viable champs or something, but I think changes like this are super likely to just reinforce the top tier in melee. My experience with balance changes in video games is that they are almost always bad for your competitive format.
You said you wouldn't order the tiers but B tier is ordered... Does this mean we owe you $500?
Rishi talking meta is such a chad
Does Rishi know that can Peach cc Puff's bair up til like 40% and counter attack using subfloat? She also has a projectile advantage and isn't susceptible to the wall of pain and several rest setups like most characters. I don't think she has to work much harder than other characters have to.
No kill setups means Puff gets to live to much higher percents than vs other characters. Numerous attacks Peach has are unsafe vs Puff and she can get CCed rested. You can't edgeguard Puff, so Peach loses one of her strongest attributes and the key method she gets kills. Bair also out ranges all of Peach's moves.
@@Prodigial Peach does have kill setups with turnips. Sweetspotted usmash is incredibly strong. It's not the most consistent, but Peach doesn't get rested easily. Peach is like the only character with true shield pressure and +4 aerials on shield. Float canceling is faster than L canceling. Her high dash attack and jab are anti-airs. Turnip screens are very safe. Peach has lots of options. Bair beating all of Peach's moves is simply not true. Peach's own Bair is disjointed and lasts longer. Diagonal bair approaches beat Puff's Bair cleanly. Peach can also ASDI down Puff's aerials using subfloat and counterattack. One of her key attributes that she keeps in the MU is hitting like a truck with nair/fair/Dsmash. Does living longer matter if Peach can kill Puff at like 70% with usmash? Or threaten Dsmash spam at 100? You're also forgetting that Puff recovers slowly so Peach can farm stitch faces/dot eyes.
get falco down from there hes scared D:
LOL
Doesn't he like the air?
31:00 I'd pay Rishi fifty cents to tell me Bowser was in G tier.
ganon is underrated
Cool concept for a tier list
Can we get fox pictures.
Watch on 1.5 speed
He pauses for 5 seconds in between sentences lol
G tier is getting dysentery after trying to drink from the water source
Guys why do I fire Falco lasers in my pants when I hear his voice?
Icies without wobbling is beautiful
13:18 Android moment
Rishi putting DK high for the memes
I saw someone in chat say there are no top 10 Peaches. They sleepin on Llod
when I grow up I want to be just like Rishi
why’d you do luigi like that
Luigi is definitely better than ylink, dk, and Ganon
And dr Mario
Bro you are beyond tripping if you think Lugi is worse than yoshi, pikachu, dk, gannon, samus. Ur on crack my dude.
Luigi has a massive wave dash, thats what he brings. Hella good combo game on everyone, hella insane punish game, hella insane bait game, hella good moves, all his throws are good, hella options, hella kill options, the only matchup Luigi gets pooped on is swordies
Luigi has a shitload more options than pikachu, yoshi, samus, Gannon, and dk, idk what ur thinking
what majors has luigi won
This is pretty pog
Looks about right to me
Nice video
Doc punish really stronk tier no go
🔥
I thought DK was S tier. This is why I have trust issues!
young link guide when
my brother doesn't even play melee :/
This video aged poorly bc hbox is still winning majors in 2024 and the official tier list has puff at number 3 in the game over falco
Lol Dual Main YL and Link, use Link for Sheik and Marth and YL for the other characters
ayyy im in this vid
I fully feel that sticking to one character is way more optimal. Taking the L's and gaining the mu exp is WAY more valuable than potentially dual maining
Nice
Bruh hates the mario bros huh 😫
#freemario
Yee haw !!
When the impostor is sus😳
Obviously rishi puts dk at the top
I’m still mad wobbling got banned
why? its super lame
@@b.online no it’s not
@@niceprofile-k6i well ok
I think Luigi is pretty shitty but I think he is better/ more utilitous than Dk and Link, are at least about the same level.
Culerisima la list
You beat my ass at AON 🤩
Where do you think Sopo lies?
roy d tier
Where’s Sopo
as in rjj?
Luigi is on D not D.5
Pikachu should be s tier
youngggg link
make more analog
"NOTE: I hate tier lists" then don't make them jfc this one is garbage. Puff, Falcon, Mewtwo placement all scuffed as hell and the disparity in C tier basically makes it meaningless as a grouping
IC without wobbles are go way lower
no way Mewtwo is above Roy imo
DK not SS tier SMH...
Idk, I think Rishi is biased here. When you look at all the factors, puff is clearly #1 in her own tier.
6.9k views
no
Jigglypuff a tier lul
fuck, this isn't a meme video. Is it bad I'm disappointed?
So stupid. Random gives you all the utility in the game. Such a biased tier list
Im going to preface this with i still haven't watched all of the video i only watched the preface and D.5
I really dont understand what is being talked about in this tier list. I know you said utility but you really haven't explained utility. In a normal game you would describe utility as multipurpose. In an average shooter a utility gun could be something that is average in handling stats slightly below average in short range great but not the best in mid range and passable in long range however if the game favors long range engagements then that gun drops in quality significantly in a different game. While i only watched a small amount of this video im confused on how a character can have utility. You talk about things like combo ability off grab, recovery, disjoints and much more yet never actually explain what it is you are talking about and i know its not aboutbeingyour secondary or solo maining. The biggest problem i have with this framing is unlike in a shooter your opponent matters way more and i don't mean the person but the actual character you are against. DK's combos off grabs go away against floatier characters luigi's bad recovery may not be as bad against ice climbers as it is against fox. I genuinely dont know what you mean by saying Ganon, DK Link, and Young Link have better utility than characters that are conventionally considered better than them. What utility are they providing you? The only real utility i can think of is match up spread which is what normal tier list are kind of based on anyway.
Link that low!?! Do i gotta teach you another lesson smh
?
OMG 😍💋 💝💖❤️
I am a Peach Main. And my Little brother complains about only playing against her. But I tell you what hes a beast at Melee . . . =D