Great Video. I came across this after a grammy award winning engineer told me a few weeks back to stop low cutting everything, for these reasons (it introduces other problems caused by phase shifts). Instead, either leave the low stuff there as its quiet you can't hear it anyway, (don't just assume because its there on the spectrum you need to get rid of it) and if you really do still want to do something about it, use gentle low slope to reduce its volume, not a low cut filter.
Really nice video, well explained. So this is why hi-passing everything is a bit of a myth. Essentially every filter induces a change in phase, hence linear phase EQ and its vastly more hungry CPU consumption in an attempt to keep everything in phase. The additional amplitude you're experiencing is because of a harmonic created by a subtle shift in phase in the low end. I have to ask though, have you got a hipass on the master? There's more audible sub in your microphone than there is the snare without the hipass on... What I'm hearing and feeling (trust me, monitors are big enough) doesn't seem to match up with what I'm seeing on the analyser? It's like something's lowpassed somewhere later in the chain.
Hey Kristian, thanks for you're detailed comment! I will have to look into that, but you're most likely right. I unfortunately didnt turn off my mic or mute the recording in post production, so there must be all kind of rumble going on. I'm gonna be more careful with my set up and recordings in future videos. But I hope the video was still a small teaser for people to look more closely at some tools they are using and experiment at home.
I think this is a problem with the Ableton EQ. I do not get this phenomenon with UAD's Pultec HLF-3C plugin, FabFilter Pro-Q³, or any of my "modern" EQs unless they have a particular color or tricky algorithms they are using as a selling point. Other Pultec plugins will definitely change the transient shape, but they don't really eat up headroom. The HLF-3C is a totally passive LPF/HPF. It cannot add gain in the real world because it has no power. The other Pultecs added some power to make up for what they pull out of the signal, but the EQ portion is totally passive and the amp is just for make-up gain. I'd like to see what happens if you run some pink noise through that Ableton EQ, apply the HPF, and see what's going on. I bet they have a bump in there somewhere.
This should only be the case, or at least only this drastic, with the x4 Low cut. I believe that is a 48 db per octave cut and as such actually has a boost right after the cut. I do not experience this with the regular 12 db cut or other EQs.
yeah the x4 cut is quite drastic! But the fact that subtractive EQ can lead to a decrease in headroom is still relevant in some situations. Was watching a Video of Matthew Weiss the other day and he also talked about how the delays used by EQs can lead to a chance in headroom, transients and tonality
@@OleansHouse It is very relevant, and Ableton really should show the correct curve. The curve they are displaying doesn't show the bump. It is similar to Q/resonance in filters. Higher dB/octave = higher resonance value. If you really need 48 dB/octave, you might want to add an EQ that cuts that bump at the frequency of the low cut filter.
I found this really interesting. I just wonder if the reverb does something to do with this. What happens if you cut it out after the reverb or if you just turn it off? Thanks for your videos. You're really good explaining.
There is no problem with the reverb. I've tryed it myself and the exact same thing happened to me, but with a kick drum, with no inputs in the channel.
Does Linear Phase EQ/Filters help in this case (i.e. to prevent headroom wastage) ?? Yet Linear Phase processing might be having its own side-effects, right? If there's no such side-effects for a particular channel upon inserting a Linear Phase EQ, then I guess that might be a good way to cure this headroom issue.
for sure! I also the EQ8s 48db per octave slope is pretty steep. I did some more testing with other eqs, like fab filters pro-q3 and didnt encounter the same amount of peaks building up. looking back I'd say, this whole things is interesting and good to know, but not the most relevant thing when it comes to your production or mix :)
if you use a linear phase EQ you run into other problems like filter pre-echos and others. but yes in some situations different types of EQs make sense :)
@@mindflux1445 there are different approaches when it comes to creating EQs and Filters in general. Linear Phase is just one of them and definitely not the most commonly used in music production. Unfortunately I didnt find an official statement in the manual I'm pretty sure EQ8 is not a linear phase EQ.
hello :) I can only answer this question to a certain extend since I'm not a complete expert on this very technical stuff. But EQs like the EQ8 basically use very short delays to create phase cancelation or addition where ever you want to boost or cut certain frequencies. Kind of like a phaser and flanger create filter by delaying the sample, just more complex and controlled I guess. So these delays actually change the timing of the sound and cause phase shifts. So when some frequencies get shifted to the front timing wise energy can pile up at a certain point of the sound. Then there are other types of EQ which use different approaches to prevent stuff like this. Like linear phase EQs. Hope this was helpful and like I said don't take me word for word on this one ;D
Great Video. I came across this after a grammy award winning engineer told me a few weeks back to stop low cutting everything, for these reasons (it introduces other problems caused by phase shifts). Instead, either leave the low stuff there as its quiet you can't hear it anyway, (don't just assume because its there on the spectrum you need to get rid of it) and if you really do still want to do something about it, use gentle low slope to reduce its volume, not a low cut filter.
Really nice video, well explained. So this is why hi-passing everything is a bit of a myth. Essentially every filter induces a change in phase, hence linear phase EQ and its vastly more hungry CPU consumption in an attempt to keep everything in phase. The additional amplitude you're experiencing is because of a harmonic created by a subtle shift in phase in the low end.
I have to ask though, have you got a hipass on the master? There's more audible sub in your microphone than there is the snare without the hipass on... What I'm hearing and feeling (trust me, monitors are big enough) doesn't seem to match up with what I'm seeing on the analyser? It's like something's lowpassed somewhere later in the chain.
Hey Kristian, thanks for you're detailed comment! I will have to look into that, but you're most likely right. I unfortunately didnt turn off my mic or mute the recording in post production, so there must be all kind of rumble going on. I'm gonna be more careful with my set up and recordings in future videos. But I hope the video was still a small teaser for people to look more closely at some tools they are using and experiment at home.
I was having the same issue doing this with proQ3 until I switched from zero latency to linear phase. I agree with you on the hi-pass myth.
Oh my goodness! I just had the same issue and found your video. From now on I will not use low cut high cut. It creates more problems than solutions!
I think this is a problem with the Ableton EQ. I do not get this phenomenon with UAD's Pultec HLF-3C plugin, FabFilter Pro-Q³, or any of my "modern" EQs unless they have a particular color or tricky algorithms they are using as a selling point. Other Pultec plugins will definitely change the transient shape, but they don't really eat up headroom. The HLF-3C is a totally passive LPF/HPF. It cannot add gain in the real world because it has no power. The other Pultecs added some power to make up for what they pull out of the signal, but the EQ portion is totally passive and the amp is just for make-up gain. I'd like to see what happens if you run some pink noise through that Ableton EQ, apply the HPF, and see what's going on. I bet they have a bump in there somewhere.
This should only be the case, or at least only this drastic, with the x4 Low cut. I believe that is a 48 db per octave cut and as such actually has a boost right after the cut. I do not experience this with the regular 12 db cut or other EQs.
yeah the x4 cut is quite drastic! But the fact that subtractive EQ can lead to a decrease in headroom is still relevant in some situations. Was watching a Video of Matthew Weiss the other day and he also talked about how the delays used by EQs can lead to a chance in headroom, transients and tonality
@@OleansHouse It is very relevant, and Ableton really should show the correct curve. The curve they are displaying doesn't show the bump. It is similar to Q/resonance in filters. Higher dB/octave = higher resonance value. If you really need 48 dB/octave, you might want to add an EQ that cuts that bump at the frequency of the low cut filter.
Personally, I use the autofilter for cutting lows.
Oups, I might have answered too quickly. It could possibly be caused by phasing issues as well. Regardless, be careful with high dB/octave :)
@@mattias800 I will try this. Thanks
I found this really interesting. I just wonder if the reverb does something to do with this. What happens if you cut it out after the reverb or if you just turn it off?
Thanks for your videos. You're really good explaining.
There is no problem with the reverb. I've tryed it myself and the exact same thing happened to me, but with a kick drum, with no inputs in the channel.
Interesting and nice job
Does Linear Phase EQ/Filters help in this case (i.e. to prevent headroom wastage) ??
Yet Linear Phase processing might be having its own side-effects, right?
If there's no such side-effects for a particular channel upon inserting a Linear Phase EQ, then I guess that might be a good way to cure this headroom issue.
for sure! I also the EQ8s 48db per octave slope is pretty steep. I did some more testing with other eqs, like fab filters pro-q3 and didnt encounter the same amount of peaks building up. looking back I'd say, this whole things is interesting and good to know, but not the most relevant thing when it comes to your production or mix :)
@@OleansHouse Until this video, I never knew this thing was happening all the time I'm using zero latency steep filters !!
Many Thanks for revealing !
U should apply gain staging, then cut the low to yo feel, the high pass makes the mix loud not loose headroom
Goshhh! Thanks for revealing !
use cliping instead of limiter.. its mutch better result.
thanks! actually been using clipping more lately and ur right it works quite well
Logic match eq have this problem too
Isnt the easiest solution to just turn it down after the cut has been made? good video
Thx! :) Since the peak is very short, the sample wont really sound louder than before. So turning down the volume might mess up your mix/balance.
@@OleansHouse have you looked into this more? There must be other ways than using a limiter
You can just zoom in on the transient and carefully cut it and turn the volume down in the clip of just the transient.
use a linear pahase EQ like FABFILTER PRO and you won't have this problem
if you use a linear phase EQ you run into other problems like filter pre-echos and others. but yes in some situations different types of EQs make sense :)
most modern EQ's use linear phase like the EQ8
@@mindflux1445 there are different approaches when it comes to creating EQs and Filters in general. Linear Phase is just one of them and definitely not the most commonly used in music production. Unfortunately I didnt find an official statement in the manual I'm pretty sure EQ8 is not a linear phase EQ.
@@OleansHouse yeah I am aware of that :) but EQ 8 is linear phase
@@mindflux1445 interesting!! Do you have a source by any chance? would love to check it out!
But Why！？ ：（
hello :) I can only answer this question to a certain extend since I'm not a complete expert on this very technical stuff. But EQs like the EQ8 basically use very short delays to create phase cancelation or addition where ever you want to boost or cut certain frequencies. Kind of like a phaser and flanger create filter by delaying the sample, just more complex and controlled I guess. So these delays actually change the timing of the sound and cause phase shifts. So when some frequencies get shifted to the front timing wise energy can pile up at a certain point of the sound. Then there are other types of EQ which use different approaches to prevent stuff like this. Like linear phase EQs. Hope this was helpful and like I said don't take me word for word on this one ;D
alright thanks for the reply. i will try out if fabfilter eq will kill headroom as well. anyway your content are excellent , appreciated
Thanks :D and yes I would expect the proQ2 to do a better job. Still saving to get the FF pro bundle hehe
VERY NICE! amazing video, but what is the solution for this?