Why a Cashless Society Is Terrifying | Aaron Bastani Meets Brett Scott | Downstream
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- čas přidán 11. 11. 2023
- Many people around the world are already living in a cashless society. With the dominion of Visa and Mastercard showing no sign of shrinking, it's vital to scrutinise exactly what this shift means.
Brett Scott is an author and former banker, who is deeply committed to evaluating the grave dangers surrounding the removal of cash as a payment system. He sat down with Aaron to talk about bitcoin, gold and the central paradox at the heart of modern libertarianism.
You can find Brett's book here: www.penguin.co.uk/books/43999...
Novara Live broadcasts every weekday from 6PM on CZcams and Twitch.
Episodes of Downstream are released Sundays at 6PM on CZcams.
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Aaron is absolutely one of the best interviewers on CZcams. He inspires trust, empathy and decency and is brilliant at building rapport. Really great job!
Rapport is French for rappor.
actually, you're freaking right about that...but he's just so affable and lovely, it's easy to overlook
@@TheGalacticEmperorOfLabels lol
He's good but I wish he'd stop dismissing 'conspiracy theorists' or the 'conspiratorial minded' when he's actually doing a whole program looking at the very thing these so called 'conspiracy theorists' have the same concerns about. God forbid that there should be any overlap between them and you!
Aaron is amazing - he is so clever -
Really glad that i found this channel, refreshing to see journalism that doesn't just pose as alternative.
There is so much media concentration especially in my country of Australia. Other independent media organizations like Michael West, friendlyjordies and Independent Australia really stand out.
Keep it coming!
I have followed recently Dale Webster after noticing her on Walk the World by Martin North speaking of Independent Australia.
Honestly these Downstream interviews alone are worth donating for. Great work. You should get Ronan Burtenshaw on - he's just stepped down as editor of Tribune so would be interesting to hear his reflection on his time there, and his future plans. Always has valuable insight anyway.
The opening 30 seconds alone was a grab-bag of revisionist economics, political and technical history.
@@asnark7115What about it was revisionist?
I have never heard MMT folk say we can’t regulate banks. It’s a large part of discussions in my circles.
Fun fact : in poorer countries in Africa and Asia for example access to traditional banking is tedious so people turn to digital money through mobile apps where they use their phones and service providers to store and exchange money and pay. Its kind of a technological leap where they skipped traditional banking altogether. This give tremendous control to telco and tech companies, and govs, regulators, and traditional banking actors are not happy at all about it as it causes many possible issues
😹...BRICS! takeover!
do they turn into Margret thatcher then cruelly modernize their village with their new found production and wealth?
Love this channel❤
Thank you Novara Media, this is f***ing amazing. It's better than the Economics lectures I used to have to put up with in my MSc. I learn so much just watching your interviews.
I tend not to think in terms of left and right these days, do we want to live in a human world or an inhuman one? Do we want humanity to survive and prosper or don't we. If we rush towards things that make humans redundant things often occur, like wars to reduce that now redundant population. We are also faced with corporates having undue influence over governments, in a democracy you need adults in the room to execute policy as was voted for, this process has never looked so weak across the western world as it is today. Cash has its own sovereignty and autonomy even within a system where governments have always had the monopoly over control of their citizens, we let that sovereignty go at our peril
Well said! I want nothing more than a more just society where everyone is treated with respect and dignity but I don't believe that a cashless society gets us there. I think it could get us to all being fairly equal but I think we are likely to all be equal in our suffering, misery, and lack of agency over what we do with our own lives. All of these utopian financial solutions always assume that we all want to live the same way, as if there is some universal lifestyle that everyone covets, and that just isn't so. Speaking for myself, the worst hell I could ever imagine is to have someone else controlling my life. I don't care if it is malicious control or benevolent control, I wouldn't be able to live with either. I know that a lot of other people...most other people think that we need authority figures to tell us all what to do, keep us safe, etc. I am not so sure that the majority's worship of authority and everyone constantly fighting to get that power over everyone else is not the root of our problem.
@@mercedesb2299a lot of people don’t think about that. We’d be forced into a conservative white existence. All culture would be erased, even more than it has been
Great interview. I'm learning to live without my smart phone. I'm trying very hard not to have to take it everywhere with me as I've found more and more businesses and authorities expect you to use your phone when dealing with them - I feel uneasy about this. I'm online at home, but when out and about I'm using basic tech (non smart phones) to keep in contact with people. Society needs cash, it would be sad to lose the physicality of money.
It’s a method of oppression. We’re slaves to the system. Yet we have to feed and house and clothe ourselves. A lot of jobs now require you to download and use an app. Which I firmly believe should be illegal. Unless they’re providing a phone. But that would cost money
Great conversation there. Keep them coming! ❤
This was such a great interview. I appreciate Brett's thorough explanation of all these concepts. I've learned a lot from this conversation.
The terrifying thing is we won’t have any money well at least not the 99% that is
Why not?
@@mikecook1537because you touch yourself at night.
The time of change is coming.
When you don't have money, you're forced to steal bread. Chaos ensues.
@@mikecook1537no good paying jobs.
I recently noticed, that David Graeber called his opus:
DEBT THE ___FIRST____ 5,000 YEARS
and the last chapter Twelve
1971-The ____Beginning____ of Something Yet to Be Determined
What might have been in his mind?
Aaron you are saving me on New Year's Eve. Your interviews (carefully selected), are first class. A steep learning curve....so thanku and a very Happy New Year.
I wish they talked about countries like Kenya that have almost cashless societies using mobile money providers like Mpesa and Airtel Money.
Great. A few months after I read Debt by Graeber. Definitely feel a lot more informed on a major aspect of (unfortunately) life!
Great work being done on this channel!
Aaron you should get Nate Hagens on to talk about the big simplification
Spot on. The thing that is missing from this is energy.
Gents, thank you so much! Thats the best inside into banking I have seen so far 👍🏽 cheers from Australia
Read 'The Great Taking' book (free online PDF) - you aren't even remotely close to the sh1t that is incoming. Wake up ... and Fast !
Thank you,
Brilliantly discussion & analysis around money & corporates interests-Thank you
🤩
I fear that, despite the very valid argument that cashless society can tip the balance of power, people will gravitate towards cashless simply because it is the most convenient form of payment.
Not a chance.
@@anthonyparella2005 Funny that as my daughter does not use ANY cash at all, modern generation, and I was at the supermarket yesterday and someone was paying using their mobile phone. Personally I am of a generation that wasn't given FREE supermarket plastic bags so always use cash.
@@NormanskieExactly. Plenty of shops already don’t accept cash, every small independent shop and market stall will have a sumup. Even buskers and street entertainers FFS.
*Decentralized Cash/E-tokens* can tip the balance of power. Centralized digital currrency, on the other hand, can only keep us on the same trajectory towards corporate feudalism. That's why the power structures of the world are pushing us into it.
And because people apparently cannot think beyond the ends of their noses.
Surprised no mention of Wikileaks and the donation blockade they went through that infamously pushed them to Bitcoin. On the one hand, I doubt Assange was too worried about whether it fell into the definition of money at the time. On the other hand there is literally a world of difference between that and it being a global unit of account. Anyway, great interview (as was the Zizek interview)
I think that story is much more about our current electronic money transfers being dominated by a tiny number of companies than about bitcoin.
Don't you mean, "famously pushed them to Bitcoin"? Do you have something against non-inflatable currency funds and sovereign ownership?
Tell us what you're definition of money is.
@@asnark7115 *your
I’m not a sophisticated investor but I immediately noticed the clear bias against gold by the guest. I’m glad you immediately challenged him on this perspective and his condescending responses clearly shows how he has a clear agenda for his thesis. You challenge him elsewhere in this interview and it adds so much value to the discussion to get beyond the surface of his narrative.
People tend to think of gold as a solution to many problems because it sounds easy in theory, while it is not. The value created shouldn't be constrained by any measurement unit.
Pissed off because someone was talking down on your gold stash?
Thanks for this conversation.
one of the best media presenters I have come across so far, donated
Great Scott! Top notch interview and discussion. The guest is highly skilled at explaining complex, abstract concepts in simple terms.
Yes he is right on the money
@@larsstougaard7097 Yes but fiat money alas.
@@rebranch74 ha ha true 🤑😄
The most sober Bitcoin explanation I've heard so far - and fantastic interview in general. I've watched several interviews on the channel already and they are all fantastic, deep and thoughtful - thank you :)
Brilliant interview
When the bank pushes out too much money it becomes a banking crisis and we pay it.
There is no technical limit to the issuance of fiat currency. The constraints on its issuance are real resources and inflation.
It will be a breakthrough when the left understands this
Money is a call on work, and debt is a claim on future energy.
Why isn't debt a claim on future work.
Energy is the output from that work among other things.
Because our economies rely on cheap energy.@@cyberneticbutterfly8506
Great interview with Brett!
Currently, Bitcoin being used as a USD countertrade is true. It hae to start somewhere and cannot replace fiat overnight. Adoption into daily use is a long and winding path.
Yeah agreed, I want to see him debating with Lyn Alden . They did not touch on the money losing purchasing power and bitcoin's appeal / utility there. No leftist ever touch that point.
@@biswarup077 indeed, money does lose purchasing power depending on how the money is being managed.
Do you see anything good coming from BlackRock getting into BTC? They have a lot of money to buy a lot of BTC and stifle its use case.
It's a shame we on the left shun Bitcoin when so many of its benefits challenge state and corporate power monopolies in a really novel way@@biswarup077
@@biswarup077 "bitcoin's appeal / utility there" WHAT appeal/utility. Bitcoin isn't money, it has no backing, just as fiat currencies. Currencies are losing purchasing power because they are backed by nothing and governments and private banks are printing them like no tomorrow. This isn't true for bitcoin, sure, but again it's backed by NOTHING. It has no value other than purely speculative use or to circumvent wanting to trade in fiat currencies, i.e. when you are locked out of systems such as Wikileaks was or for criminal use.
@@biswarup077 check out the prgressive bitcoiner podcast, there is a book too. Plenty of people on the left are advocates of bitcoin
Absolute quality, thankyou 🙌
Just watched this on my TV as I’ve completed my Sunday night ironing. The juxtaposition could not be more jarring. You’ve certainly got the better of the two circumstances.
Ha ! I love the title of this interview. People have been predicting doom , gloom , death and despondency for eons. Keep up the good work fellas.
5:50 Money is "a system of access tokens, embedded into a network of relationships. Most people think of money as a 'thing'. In reality it is a systemic structure, mediated by tokens that offer access to human labour... From a legal perspective these tokens are a credit instrument-an IOU.
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
The problem with currency that is not pegged to a tangible object is that it encourages poor use of resources and excess. Countries like the us couldn't use their monetary system to fund their war machine because of the realities of living within one's means that is required by a hard currency.
Yet they've lived beyond their means since the Vietnam war. And guess what? The rest or the world still accepts USD... Currency doesn't need to be backed by anything to still be accepted internationally.
I love this conversation. I love the Negri book in the background.
I would have liked something to have been said about the cashless transaction fees that a lot of small businesses face
And all the rounding up when you pay. All those micro charges add up.
You realize you're on a bankers' astroturf channel, right? This video isn't an entry into honest conversation. The first 30 seconds should have given that away with no doubts.
@@asnark7115 what if bitcoin is astroturf
@@asnark7115 what if bitcoin is astroturf
Great interview
In the UK, at least, there is no move to remove cash in its entirety.
In fact, the regulators have mentioned it is their responsibility to ensure we have a robust and effective ATM networks. Therefore, people can access cash, and it prevents the exclusion of some of our most vulnerable in society that rely heavily on cash use in our payment system.
The solution isn't that drastic. It's simply to democratise the current money system and then you remove the application of interest from loans because the privilege of earning interest on newly created money will no longer belong to anyone (unless it belongs to the state for the benefit of all) but currently it belongs to private individuals which is absolutely obscene.
So you want to disincentivise the best and brightest to make them move elsewhere in the world. Meanwhile entrusting the state to have complete control over where the lives and futures of it’s unfortunate citizens.
He is a great interviewer!
How am I able to make donations to NM without online payment? Do you have an account number I can make payment to?
Thanks
Thanks. As an anthropologist, I’m thankful for this analysis.
i love this content, please enhance the audio quality! just a little bit louder please :) thank you for these awsome interviews!
You got to bring Gary in and have a talk with Aaron! You have to!!
yeah I ve seen his interview, but I would like to see these two together! @@PeppermintPatties
Big up Novara Media
Mind
Blown
You guys are going from strength to strength at the moment. Awesome content. Thankyou.
Bret should have a conversation with Rafi Faber. Gold is money. Everything else is a derivative. It is the most recognized store of value and wealth in the world with no technological nor counterparty risk. It is not an illusion, it is a human and physical reality. The public trust of the derived currency needs to have an actual backing. The backing places a constraint on the issuer and manager of the currency. Take away the backing and the trust evaporates.
The best remark concerning cash associates digital currency transactions and (indirectly) cryptocurrency with the privatization of money. This is a key point to remember; cash in hand is indeed the last remnant of pubic money.
What a lovely future we all have to look forward to:
- Forever renting and never be able to afford a home
- Never being able to enjoy/afford retirement
- A cashless society where the government/ banks can have complete control over our money.
- automation/ ai taking thousands if not millions of jobs.
Bloody interesting
I hope that after this interview Novara Media tries to be more critcal of the "tax the rich to pay for stuff" thing. By all means, we should tax the rich. But only to destroy their political power, not to pay for anything.
Why not to pay for anything
@@24eu taxes delete currency that’s previously been spent. Taxation and spending are not operationally connected. Spending always comes before taxation. Spending doing does not require taxation but taxation requires spending. Taxation is a means to manage inflation by draining excess currency spent by the state. If they drained it all away, we would have no income or savings. Therefore a state deficit is a private sector surplus and vice versa. A state cutting back on the deficit is likely forcing you into private debt and credit.
Taxes remove money from circulation. It doesn’t exist one removed, so can’t be spent.
No records of physical cash transactions; all digital money transactions are recorded
Thtat was a really good conversation. Cash is 👑
During the 2007-2008 financial crisis it was the cash in clandestine businesses that kept the world running. I wish the question had been asked about what would have happened if we’d been cashless during that crisis.
Wrong. A stable China saved the world from havoc
They don’t have to ban cash , they can just stop printing it .
Great interview Aaron👍
Don't forget that interest factor on lenders and borrowers are all running at atleast a third of inflation, which effects both lenders and borrowers
Interesting! In 🇨🇦 we basically have a $10,000 cash limit on anything like real estate deposits, anything beyond requires reporting paperwork to authorities! 😮
I remember when there was talk of the 3 day working week because automation would do all the heavy lifting. Now it seems that if anyone is going to be able to buy anything we are looking down the barrel of UBI
excellent discussion: the nature of money, its creation, the role and nature of the banking system; nd yes, gold is physical and "real" but its value is effectively established by fiat (or by implicit vote?); I believe Aristotle argued that money only has value because we believe that it does?
A cashless society would be catastrophic for the working poor; whose numbers are rising rapidly.
The state is the monopoly issuer of the currency. The state authorises the commercial banks to create credit. This credit disappears when it is repaid. Without state money you wouldn’t be able to repay your commercial bank loan and interest. A state deficit is our surplus and vice versa.
wouldn't we prefer money that is independent from the State? is there such a neutral currency? it would go a long way to minimizing borders and all sorts of economic arbitrage. gold and bitcoin are neutral currencies. they operate on a peer to peer basis.
I understood that one of the main reasons for the adoption of Bitcoin by El Salvador was to save Salvadorians money on their foreign monetary transfers when sending money back to their families
Brett Scott's understanding of money vs currency and the history of metallic standards and its constraint on politicians printing currency causing inflation is poor.
Aaron - please interview Charles Hoskinson from the Cardano Blockchain. This conversation should be a lot lot broader, and Hoskinson is probably the most salient voice in the space.
It just seems to me that all this digital currency malarky is wide open to being hacked, and anyone with the ability will and prowess could be able to 'bypass/manipulate' the system to their advantage ? ..or simply crash and burn the whole 'virtual' economy ? Am I being naiive ?
There are people everyday trying to do this kind of stuff. But the security infrastructure of banks and corporations is really huge, with billions being invested in it every year. I find it very, very difficult for one person or group to simply dismantle 'the system', because it actually is a combination of multiple, very well guarded systems, with loads of back ups, substitute servers, etc.
@@ZSd4cT They'll find a way eventually. Cash should always be there as an option.
Tried to understand if the man interviewed was an exponent of a cashless system when the discussion led one to believe that it would be disastrous for the common man.
I am going off at 20:19 : Banks buy a risk when they lend money. No way super intelligent bro. Since 2008 this risk is eliminated. Do you remember the Phrase "Too big to fail". It was the start to transfer public money (taxes) into private hands (banks) again and again. The last one was during "corona" , biggest wealth transfer from the bottom to the top in history. And his stands on gold i partially agree. There is a lot of gangstas goin around and selling digital gold that they dont even have, but every Historian will tell you , since the beginning of times precious real physical metals were the only way to sustain wealth over wars, genocides , natural catastrophies and so on. But what do i know , i am a little pleb never been even near a elite university. Have an nice day 😬.
So true!
Surely there's a role for a public option here where govt can manage the digital currency and provide tools to exchange it (apps and mobile card readers like Square) without the need for a private intermediary like Mastercard, Visa or Amex. Could even extend to credit at a deep discount to the private sector.
Why would anyone trust the government to "manage" a "digital currency" when there's already a complete cryptographically proven currency, built on the world's most secure decentralized network,which is used in the digital realm that allows each individual to have self-sovereignty over their own value?
This is why the gov and banks lie to the public about Bitcoin...as it puts everyone on their level when it comes to economic control and they themselves cannot hide their corruption like they do AND already clearly have planned in THEIR "digital currencies".
Seem to batting it out the park with these interviews recently
The gold standard acted like a top end cap for businesses and individuals.
This is an interesting take. I do agree to a certain point. I see money/currency through the lens of Networks. Visa, Mastercard, US Dollar, Bitcoin are all networks for payments. Money exists for the use of payments & trade. What use is a currency/money if is it not traded/exchanged? I do like the idea of tokenization because that is what happens when you enter a new network of exchange.
33:55 - That's Peter Turchin's thing - overproduction of elites, or in this case automation of and 'Learn to code' to.
When media is afraid of being seen as ‘conspiracy theorist’, power itself has won. For uncovering conspiracies is perhaps the media’s most important role.
Yes. A cashless society is terrifying. A society totally based on digital technology is hugely VULNERABLE.
I.e. what happens when - not IF - the technologies break down, get hacked, get taken over. Then, we are stuffed! Everything screams to a halt. In Australia, we have seen, experienced , via our second largest Telco system and in the last 48 hours, by 2 of our major 4 national banks. Always keep the physical manual alternatives and options . ALWAYS...
The funny thing I have heard on gold is gold seller says you should get gold but when it is time to get paid the gold salesperson wants to get paid in the fiat money.
The recent overhaul of loans linked to ESG by under-pressure banks is making waves in the financial landscape. It seems the industry is undergoing a significant shift towards sustainability, prompting us to reconsider our financial strategies.
It's not just a trend; it's becoming a necessity for financial institutions to align with stricter ESG standards. Have we assessed how this might impact our investment portfolios?
Is this the beginning of a thread where "someone" happens to suggest a financial advisor "they" know?
Giving the politicians the ability to turn your money off if you piss them off is a very stupid idea.
aaron please interview michael hudson on his new book about debt and christanity
Interesting talk. Gold and silver have "value" because: Me Likely Shiny. That is, they are almost as worthless in real terms as diamonds (though both have some industrial applications, but are not comparably rare in those small quantities). I think exchange mechanisms, the social trust layers and so on are more interesting than the medium.
Aaron is right to be mindful of the power that programmable money potentially gives states. A payments network uncorrelated to the state IS the new cash. Where privacy and autonomy can be continued to be secured keeping private or state controlled payments in check.
It seems like ideological oversight not to give Bitcoin more thought in these circumstances.
You don’t have to like or be a tech/ Bitcoin bro so understand this potential.
Whilst bitcoin is not accepted by the state for payment of taxes, it will ALWAYS need to be exchanged for whatever is.
Banks should only lend without the speculative casino bullshit that trigger recessions based on graud
I guess I'm petit,petit bourgeois then. Cash or digital,I'm just happy to get paid (not in 60/90 days either but that's another story) Great interview as always.
bourgeois = all your income is from stuff you own (private property), proletariat = all your income is wages from your work in a company someone else owns. petty bourgeois = mostly other people's work :-D
@@OneEyedMonkey9000 l like 'semi autonomous peasant' but my wife's just a prole!😂 I Guess we've all 'gotta serve somebody'.
"Negotiations of power" are likely easy as..... to automate if the biggest shareholders of each entity are the same entity themselves.
Good week to highlight the ability of the banks/govt to monitor and penalise people via their bank account - now the DWP have access to your bank account if you receive the state pension or any benefit - Aargh !
One comment is that “China is already cashless and it works better” is the way the whole world will be someday, and I wish it was today.
We were all forced to need money over the millennia (WCRTW page 252) so we won’t be free until we eliminate money. Since billions of people have no way to get money they are starving. And the cause is capitalism: buy and sell something or starve. Work for a wage or starve is a form of slavery! Almost 30 years ago when someone said to me the words “Guaranteed Residual Income” God gave me a vision that that’s what every single person should have by rights, and that would end world poverty and human suffering. Of course, capitalists will try to prevent that but eventually they will be forced to say “capitalism is dead.”
Then all people will own all things, especially corporations which are really modern slave plantations (that are destroying humans and the earth), and there won’t be any poverty! Then the poor won’t be poor and the food will be free like it should be. Then we’ll tell people that they must work part time, not full time 40-100 hours a week until they die! Then all nations will be told they must start building only Tower cities connected to Trains worldwide, with indoor vertical fields, because we need to eliminate all vehicles, houses, most roads, small buildings, military, and weapons manufacturers, factories and everything! And some people will build the T&T, and some will start cleaning up the earth (people will sign up to work near their homes on computers! Then we’ll change education completely and start teaching all people to be scientists and doctors, and they can learn whatever they want on their own free time. We have to get people off the ground and give most of it back to wildlife, to stop habitation destruction! Children will become priorities, because their care is about the future of life on earth! Medical care will be free, and every person will get all the medical treatments they need! We’ll start building desalination plants, and continue with the way China is replanting trees in deserts. There will be no more wars and no more weapons, lumbering, books/paper, colleges, malls, no advertisements, fertilizers, etc.
Tower cities will have micro factories, water catchments, recycling everything including human waste! And all people can work part time because they won’t be forced to drive long distances to work, they will instead work near their homes while doing all of the above. That’s the future without capitalism and with money!
China isn't "cashless". A digital transaction is still a transaction, an exchange of currency for goods/services.
Aaron, You need to speak to Alex Gladstein, the Chief Strategy Officer at the Human Rights Foundation, he'll probably speak to you.
Wait, how is law being automated? That was mentioned in law school when I was there and I honestly cannot fathom how people expect automation to take over that profession. Lawyers aren't going to lose our jobs. We just won't have to do the more tedious aspects of it. You can't automate advocacy or judicial sentencing, the human factor (for better or worse) is needed.
Maybe because I always hated office paperwork but I would love to just be able to advocate
It’s private profit v public good as with so much of Politics.
As a small business owner I now effectively pay for my currency via card charges.
53:52 ESG scores are a measure of how well a company addresses risks and concerns related to Environmental, Social, and corporate Governance issues in its day-to-day operations. Aaron probably needs to explain any 3 letter acronyms he uses just in case someone like me doesn't know what it means! To give you a funny example of this:- I was working for a Financial Times Stock Exchange (FTSE) 100 company and someone in a Zoom presentation kept on using too many three letter acronyms (TLAs). I politely said in the chat please can you explain what your TLAs mean. He responded by saying "What's a TLA?". I couldn't stopped laughing when he said that.
They said ever one insured up to 70,000 per bank account, really as that been tested in mass? One thing that clear government don’t do what they promise.
There's some small places in uk that knock 10% off if you pay by cash.
Cash vs credit cards vs gold, it's all the same thing. Imaginary value simply because a society agrees to give it that value.
Self custodial wallets mean your assets can be stored offline with biometric security.
Surely the answer to automation is UBI (in combination with reformative taxes on the systems that generate the wealth)