How Doctor Who Ruined The Master
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- The Master alongside the cybermen and daleks is one of Doctor Who's Most iconic villains. Played originally by Roger Delgado who appeared alongside the 3rd doctor back in the 70s, the master became an iconic hit going against several doctors including the 4th doctor and even the 8th doctor in the TV movie.
When doctor who was rebooted in 2005 the master appeared played by Derek Jacobi alongside David tennants 10th Doctor before regenerating into John simms iconic master who ruled the world twice and made the doctor old. He was defeated when this master the Saxon master, was shoot by Lucy Saxon his companion and life partner. He refused to regenerate and was later bought back in the 10th doctors regen story with an emphasis on the timelords and the masters insanity with the sound in his head.
He would later reappear as Missy and go on a character redemption alongside the 12th Doctor Peter capaldi. Missy would battle on being good before the Saxon master would return and turn the doctors companion at the time, Bill Potts into a mondassian cybermen. Missy would turn good and kill the Saxon Master and to stop Missy joining the doctor he lazar screwdrivered her. She would later die.
The master would return in jodie whittakers run going from good to bad and ignoring the previous character development. What happened? Why was the ignored? and by this point like the cybermen and daleks had the master become overused and has this ruined the master?
the grind is real lovin the vids
I agree. I really enjoyed Sacha’s portrayal of the Master, but it was too soon after Missy. I felt like the Master needed to be rested for a few years.
Canon be damned; I like to think of Sacha’s take on the Master coming before Missy’s. I love them both, but it just doesn’t make sense
Missy has to be, chronologically, the oldest Master we’ve seen to date.
The character development only makes sense that way.
It would also explain the Toymaker’s dialogue about finding the Master at the end of their life, bleeding to death, and letting them challenge him to a game.
He must have come across Missy after she was shot by the Saxon incarnation.
but the Toymaker refers to the Master as a "he"
Actually it's described that she has a regeneration called The Lumiat in an audio drama that is much like The Doctor. Then The Lumiat dies by her hands and becomes the 13th Dr Master.
Tbh, the order of The Master's regenerations do not matter nor are they really specified. I like to think that Missy is in fact the last Master. She does welcome Simm's Master to the "sisterhood", but it is never shown that she comes after Simm. Having Missy as the last one and the Master knowing he'll die as a friend of the Doctor is genius. I think the Master has such an ego that he would then put off that regeneration as much as possible and do all damage and harm he can to avoid the inevitable outcome that is now a fixed point in time
The Master used up all his normal regenerations a long time ago, and he's also a time traveler. Sasha Dhawan could be a Master from long ago who's just meeting the Doctor in a different order than her own regenerations. However, it doesn't quite add up that Missy is a future version of him when he knows about the Doctor's identity as the Timeless Child.
Missy is the best master.
Personally love John Simms unhinged psychopathic take
I agree
Facts ❤
The War Master >>>>
@@frederickcubbinsfair enough, missy is the best master on tv. (The war masters one tv appearance isn’t better than all of missy)
Yes I completely agree. Also, the whole Chibnall era seemed to really discard the Capaldi era, like it didn't want to acknowledge its existence, like why doesn't 13 mention the fact that the last time she saw The Master, she went off with another version of herself, like surely you'd mention that
This is a problem I also saw in Star Wars - when Disney made the sequels, they refused to mention the existence of the prequels until the third movie.
@@HandlesTheCyberman Homestly, if Chibbers hadn't previously written Doctor Who, I'd question if he had even watched it. Appointing Chibnall was Moffat's biggest mistake, he should have made a competent writer like Toby Whithouse showrunner instead of Chibs.
@@HandlesTheCyberman It also seems really weird that the dude who criticised Who in the 80's then literally took the show in the direction it was going in the 80's. It's like he read a book called "How NOT to Write Doctor Who" and thought "Great! Let's do that!"
@@HandlesTheCybermanEven my Doctor Who fan series I made at 3am was better than the Chibs era
John Simm’s original Saxon Master is my favourite nu who master.
That's prime master
My favorite version of the Master is Roger Delgado. He was so smooth and sophisticated yet so deliciously over the top, mustache twirling evil. New Who took the Master in a different direction. The manic, insane side was played up too much for me. I prefer a cool, calculating, highly intelligent take on the Master.
Missy was the perfect incarnation to end the character, she, much like the doctor she stood across from, had fantastic character development. Making it feel all the worse that despite her doing good without witness or reward, this development is just ignored
Chibnal in general ignores most of new who and instead just tried to make a sequel to classic who with his run.
Also in expanded media there was an explanation of sacha's master being 2 regenerations after missy, with her trying to be good in the next regeneration, being betrayed and then going bad again with sacha. But honestly that all being in audiobooks instead of on screen kinda just makes it worse.
7:49
I think the next time we see The Master it’s gonna be a new actor because we hear the laughs of not just John Simm but you can hear Anthony Ainley and Michelle Gomez too. Even a bit of Eric Roberts if you listen closely
Sasha Dawhan is too manic. If he’d watched Delgado which he did for the DVD collection he was surprised by how still and calm Delgado was.
I choose to believe one of two things:
1) The Chibnall Master comes before Missy or
2) The Simm Master bigenerated, forming both Missy and the Chibnall Master
I mean, in a show as wibbly wobbly timey wimey as Doctor Who, we really don't have a definitive order of events, so anything's possible!
Bigenertion seems to be the cleanest way to explain it. Missy gained the good parts of the master, Dhawan was all the bad of the master. This way Missy can have her own ending, as a good splinter of the master.
@@Chris-uu9meMuch as I hate bigeneration, it fits this perfectly. And now that it's canon, I hope RTD sees this opportunity!
@@Kesteen It makes a lot of sense, considering Missy no-longer has a Tardis, yet Dhawan does and the fact the Dhawan never references anything about being Missy, as if it never happened for him.
@@Chris-uu9meExactly! This would be a far better use of bigeneration than in The Giggle.
Thinking back on it, it makes more sense if The Master bigenerated in The end of Time, one Simm and one Missy, and then the Simm Master we see in the series 10 finale regenerates into the Chibnall Master. This would explain why The Master is no longer a skeleton and why Missy doesn't remember anything about the series 10 finale.
I can never get enough of John Simm's Master. Thoroughly enjoyed all three of his versions. Looking forward to his reappearance.
The O Master has the WORST Master episode I have ever seen.
The Master is my favorite Doctor Who villain ever. Even before I was a Whovian really cause my Dad watched the show for YEARS before I ever did. The Master episodes were the only ones I ever really got into. I just love every story he's in.
So when not even the Master can save the Timeless Children that's saying a lot.
There are ways to fix that episode in the future. For starters we could find out that the Doctor isn't the Timeless Child but in fact the Master is. The Master being the Timeless Child would explain one of the biggest plot holes in his stories...
Rodger Delgado, the first actor to play the Master, was playing the 13th incarnation of the character. We never see the first 12 who died off camera before we ever meet the character.
Anthony Ainsley's Master was put on Trial by the time lords and killed only to come back as Eric Robberts who also died.
That's 3 times the Master was killed without being able to regenerate and comming back anyway.
The Time Lords granted a new regeneration cycle to the Master and that's how we get the War Master and the Saxon Master. This is the only time we've seen a true regeneration on screen.
The Saxon Master died and refused to regenerate just to spite the Doctor only to be resurrected as the same actor again.
We know Saxon regenerates into a new incarnation which I think is actually the O Master not directly into Missy. They did film a regeneration scene that shows him becomming Missy but cut that scene short so that they had a way to bring the Master back if they wanted to in the future.
And Missy, the Misstress was suppose to have died with no way to regenerate.
That's 5 times in total that the Master was suppose to be permanently killed only to return anyway and making the Master the Timeless Child would explain away how he keeps breaking the Regeneration Cycle limitations.
Placing the O Master between Saxon Master and Missy would also make far more sense why he's still evil if all that character development is still in his future.
Also... the O Master has a TARDIS which we know the Saxon Master had but Missy never did. So it would also make more sense how Missy lost her TARDIS if the O Master is still traveling with one.
I also find it odd how the Doctor and the Master always seem to meet in the same order even though Aintony Ainsley's Master seems to know the Valeyard (future incarnation of the Doctor) and they're both time travelers so why not have older incarnations we're never seen before meet present versions of the Doctor. There is a big finish series with David Bradley as the first Doctor that features a younger version of the Master who is suppose to be the first Master. Bring him onto the show. There's I think 3 other Masters exclusive to Big Finish that would be great to see in the actual show as past incarnations. And there's still 11 incarnations we know about that we've never seen before.
There’s no reason to think that Delgado is the Master on his final regeneration. How many dangerous scrapes might he have got into between when we see him in Frontier in Space and The Deadly Assassin. I think he burns through his regeneration cycle off screen, leading him to become the desperate creature that will risk anything to cheat death right through from The Deadly Assassin to the TV Movie. What doesn’t make sense is that he managed to keep going longer in the stolen body of Tremas than he presumably did for many of his regenerations. The stolen Tremas body outlasts quite a few regenerations of the Doctor as well. His hold on life stabilises for too long in the 80s episodes. It would have made more sense if we had seen the Master burn out Tremas’ body and have to discard it and snatch other bodies. That has clearly happened by the events of The TV Movie when we assume that the Master is not occupying the Tremas body when the Daleks exterminate him. The Daleks would not put another life form on trial, they would just exterminate him. They certainly wouldn’t have granted a final wish for the Doctor to collect the remains. They would have tried to exterminate the Doctor also. It should have been a trial by the Time Lords.
I believe that Dawahn’s Master is a post-SIMM pre-Michelle Gomez regeneration. In a series like Doctor Who, it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
Missy is fucken cool I like to think she was the one that ran over danny pink to put the events of Dark Water / Death in Heaven in motion cause funny, I will always find it tragic that Twelve will never know the Master did try to help.
Regeneration is a mess, so unless they specifically say where they come in the cycle we’ll never know. It’s not entirely clear how many cycle’s the Master has, or even if they are limited
I agree. Even with the Lumiat involvement and the associated loss of memories, it's still too wishy-washy. The only thing that can settle it is a writer solidifying an answer. The show is so open to retconning seemingly poor choices that it's a case of jumping the gun to consider any long-term character "ruined". You don't yet have the reasons for why you're wrong to dislike it.
since i love Big Finish, I love that Missy forcefully regenerated herself into the Lumiat, the Master's version of the Valeyard (RIP Michael Jayston), going out there doing good. For where does Dhawan end up in the timeline, i think he's just between Simm and Missy
I didn't know that Michael Jayston was dead... 😢
@@MrSukram777 he passed away a few days ago, Feb 5th
@@almighty7621 sad to hear it. Still admire no matter how often they'd have the Valeyard in Big Finish, Jayston always played the part. That's what I call dedication.
Missy was the best doctor, we get the chaos of Simms but her plans made sense. They were throughout and perfectly well balanced. And we see a strong character arch with great lines like “i keep crying, why do i keep doing that?” As she comes to terms with all the pain she has caused throughout her lives. And to have the last action of the master being one of good, trying to start to turn around and sacrifice their life to try and do good. And to have her past literally shot her in the back and kill herself, is dark and depressing, the perfect ending to the character. I wish missy would come back but I strongly think the master should have ended at her heels.
Got to meet Missy IRL, she was just as fun in Person as her Character!!!
There are many holes in this but I have a personal theory/headcannon that I can’t get out of my head. After End of time pt2 What if John Simm’s Master bigenerates into the Simm master we see in series 10 and Missy. So when the Master kills Missy, this represents the bad part of the Master killing the good part of themselves for good (I know Missy is as evil as the Master but she’s the part that represents the possibility of change). The master then regenerates into the spy master who continues to be completely evil. I know this isn’t ‘the cannon answer’ but I like the idea.
No, it was a Multi-Master Story.
Missy acts nothing like the masters total different characters vibes
@@davidcrazyrides She acts pretty much like Delgado, except she doesn't use mind control
@@escapismlover7987 not even close she acted nothing like him acted like a different character
@@davidcrazyrides She has Delgado's charm, manners. She has the least amount of craziness in comparison to Simm and Dhavan. She's more neutral about killing. Like Delgado, she cooperated with the Doctor sometimes. She actually seems like she used to be the Doctor's friend in the past and even cares a bit about him, like Delgado Master (I remember the scene where Delgado was worried when one Doctor's heart stopped).
Geoffrey Beevers just needs to speak.
You can "fix" the masters storyline if you consider it could have been bigeneration into missy and john simm, the Chibnall master then later regenerating out of Simm's master into an even more twisted and evil version in defiance of missy, whilst, when missy get shot in the back Simm used his screwdriver to suspend her ability to regenerate, like he did in the sound of drums to the doctor.
.
Its not an impossible situation to correct using canon established material. The tradeoff is obviously it was absolutely not the original intention and even though its never proven he regenerated out of Missy that was obviously tye original intent so it woukd be BTS lore retconning
Moffat is know for being a "box set man" when it comes to regenerations. Look at Night of the Doctor for example, he wants to bridge those gaps. And yet he never shows Simm -> Gomez, leaving room for other Masters to come in between.
@@prosecutorwalton as far as I remember we've only seen the master regenerate once and it was the war master into simm.
I havent watched the video yet, but with Doctor Who in general, it feels like sometimes it feels afraid to take inspiration from other shows. Loki has done so much with the concepts of things like time travel that Doctor Who never carried on with. In this case, other shows (and one in particular) has done so much with Master concept. Homelander in the Boys feels like what the Master should. This slightly crazy, terrifying person who could dominate any situation, and strategically hypnotises the world with powerful words, playing in on the humans fear. It might be just something i see, but The Master would be so cool in this threatening format (minus the superpowers). As of recent, the Master has always felt like a package deal with the Cybermen, and i just hope that if the show does continue with an evil master, can we just focus on that character as an independent figure. Like Homelander, if you are going to do a threatening Master, make them threatening. An this can be applied to any villain. Daleks are another notbale case. Shows like Andor made the Empire feel like an entire system, with each level displayed, from generals to production of superweapons. It would be so cool to explore the Daleks more and showcase the depth of villainy, and move on from the stories where you just see the invasions. Obviously its good to keep mystery, but other shows have begun doing new things with concepts thag Doctor Who has just never done
Alternate title: How Doctor Who simultaneously ruined The Master AND the Cybermen
I always wanted the Spymaster to be a Pre-Delgado Master
My favorite part of NuWho is how RTD and Moffat both basically just wrote Master/Doctor fanfics and got them aired lmao. Like there's some subjext in the classic series if you want to look for it but RTD laid it on THICK and then Moffat just.... moffatted. I don't even ship it I just appreciate how much the showrunners obviously did.
Good stuff chap!
It would be so much better if Sacha's master was between Simm's and Michele's. Hell, they could just keep going from there and say that missy is the ultimate incarnation, because time travel. Hell, lets go even further: bring in a post-Missy incarnation ALONG WITH one or more of these in-between masters and have them be enemies instead of allies! Big Finish has already proven this concept can work by having multiple incarnations of the master interact and be antagonistic towards each other, so I don't see why the show can't do that.
But the point with Missy is that the Master simply CAN'T become good, that's what's tragic so Sacha Dhawan's Master doesn't "undo" her development since ultimately the Master is destined to always be this way, that's just who the character is.
Maybe Sacha's Master is a future one, but we're due to have a Master between Missy and Sasha, which shows how Missy's development was undone, perhaps by the Doctor, which leads to Sasha's Master?
I swear. The bounce back to evil with Sacha's Master was somewhat interesting. (lets please keep pretending the timeless child arc doesn't exist)
I mean. The Master has literally had moments where he can't regenerate. That's why the plasma snake in the movie, and for the O! Master, it was the human in the matchbox. Although, having it seem like a miniature toy makes me believe that maybe, eventually, it's the Movie Master that turns into the O! Master. Not Missy or Simms regeneration. Maybe he was forced into the situation by the one who wanted everything to be a clean slate? I mean, why make a game, where the board can't erase itself? Toymaker logic.
Oh Well THaTs AlRiGhT ThEN!!!!
As many times as the Master has managed to survive I am sure Missy regenerated. Besides It is the Master good/evil and every gradient in between. As long as it gets the Doctor's attention.
Dhawan is absolutely amazing imho but I think he is pre Missy. It would explain Missy's comment of caring about the doctor since he was a "little girl".
Pretty sure that line was just Moffat trying to be clever lol
As sad as it is, Sacha is definitely post Missy and it's been confirmed in the books
I don’t think so. I believe that John Sim’s master hijacked Sacha Dhawan’s body and became the master, and then he would’ve regenerated into Missy
If the Master regenerates into a different woman will she be Missy again?? Maybe not? I think the Mistress is better suited because Missy belongs to the personality, and the personality was funny/scary at a level where Missy was written specifically for Michelle Gomez.
i hope maybe in the future Sacha' s Master can be better remembered for something better than only being the chibnall Master (possibly a past one) ,and i hope in series 16/season 3 the Master comes back in a Genius way courtesy of RTD ,maybe he is meep 's boss or i don't know he frees from the tooth of the toymaker and works in a way to Revenge against the doctor only as one episode in contrast to previous stories where the Master is
It would be amazing if Russell found a way make the transition between missy and the next master better fitting. Big finish has even tried I believe. That missy used a extremely pained and last resort regeneration but one that destroys even cell. Creating a new you with characteristics that can be chosen. Making herself good. Some ppl belief this regeneration making herself just good resulted in a creation a another master that just imbodied evil. The opposite of what she went for
I have a theory for the ‘Missy’ timeline, that I think works…
In ‘Tue Doctor Falls’, the doctors speech did have an impact on the Sim Doctor, and that is why he regenerates i to Missy, who is trying to redeem herself in Dark water… her trying to be the doctor’s friend makes more sence in that order I fell,
But is there anything that assume that the 13's master is temporally the one after missy, couldn't it be that missy is in fact the last master and is redempting especially by remembering everything she's ever done to the doctor (13 and beyond)
Still don't understand why RTD would even bring back the Master when doing this light Reboot.
Missy is magnificent as The Master
I think the master can be fixed if they put the work in. Its not even that hard misty was flooded by something that effected regeneration its possible she was split like bio regeneration but different. We know that there a vanguard version of the master thats Good it's very likely that's a version that had all the darkness of the master removed and thats why the most recent one is more crazy and evil all traces of good removed all memories of good removed causing a more unstable version that well evil wants it all to end cause something is missing
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thought this!😭
I like to picture Chibnall's master comes before Missy
Getting rid of Sim & Gomez that's how
I wish they would bring the Lumiat into the show and the Alex McQueen Master. Even bring back Bruce Master.
even Geoffrey Beevers as the Master, bring back Crispy
i mean. never appeared once in the matt smith era. so not too overused.
What happens to the Master happens to the Doctor male too female and so on is Missy really dead or did she biregenerate ?
Spoilers for Big Finish.
Big Finish does what they did and fixed this. Missy does turn good and puts all her agony into regenerating into The Lumiate a Valeyard like character but good. She put all her good energy into the Lumiate to spite Simms Master.
Unfortunately for her an evil earlier Missy killed her and made it so her next Regeneration (Dawarn) was evil. Therefore fixing the arc and making it more tragic in a way. Unintentionally thanks to Missy there may never be a good Master again.
Re ignoring Missy's character development, of course series 12 onwards did that. It was notorious for prioritising Chibnalls trash over good lore by other writer's.
Also, I noticed here that in the giggle it isn't just Simm's laugh. There's clearly a woman in there too. As much as RTD puts his stuff on a pedestal, at least he acknowledges other writers work
Solid video. I, too, know the struggle of having a small channel and trying to grow, so I'll subscribe and like, help out a bit.
John Simm --> Sasha Dawhan --> Michelle Gomez.
Sasha should have regenerated into Missy at the end of Flux.
This completely missed the Dhawan incarnation's characterization, sorry. He has quite a lot of self-loathing bubbling underneath the surface and not just because of the Timeless Child reveal ("Don't let me go back to being me"). He is constantly revelling in being bad and doing things just because they're evil or go against The Doctor. He is spiteful and resents himself. The Master tried to stand with The Doctor and that got them killed. The Lumiat from Big Finish helps the narrative flow, but honestly even without her it still works. The Master survived and was filled with resentment and hate for what The Doctor tried to make them and how that ended up for them. He falls back into evil because it's the only thing he knows and tries to carry on being The Master even with that itch under his skin, that bubbling mass of spite, possibly regret, and just overall pain and hurt. Post-The Doctor Falls he believes the only route left is the one he's been on since the beginning.
Sascha was so bad. Pure OTT cringe but without the talent and charm of someone like Simm to pull it off. Just came across as amateur try-hard high school acting, which i guess suits Jodie's era kinda perfectly tbh...
i hate the fact that master turned every galliifrian into cybermen the doctor and the master just arent that powerful
Michelle Gomez❤️❤️❤️
I don’t think the master is ruined. U can just do something different next time he’s still cool.
It might be good to see some more detailed insight into your personal takes? These are all pretty common points in your vids, ahah
I never really liked Missy tbh.
Just like all of Moffats run. He ruined it all eventually with terrible writer
john simms was the best portrayal of the master in my opinion
No, is was a cartoon character.
@@mayotango1317 the cartoons dont really count in my opinion as its more just voice acting instead of actual acting
He was fine until Sacha. Jesus he was dreadful. The poorest actor of the lot
#lucienlaviscount
saxon master is literally awful
it was painful to watch every single time
Worse Master DS. Did not understand how to play The Master. Manically laughing is not who The Master is
LMAO the character hasn't been ruined at all. Some of you fans are just massive cry babies.
why tf did you that spoiler to the end, thank you very much (sarcasm of course), how 3 frames of 14th’s tardis interior is relevant to "How Doctor Who Ruined The Master", pure hatred to you from my side
everything about the JW doctor (storywise; love the actress) is poorly written / ill conceived. The Master DIED with Missy ... the arc was finished - and it was plain LAZY to bring her / him back in for JW run. That said, I did like the Rasputin Dance! 🦹♂