What a great man, Mark Fox is an amazing man, a great professional, and a man with huge knowledge. Eric, thank you very much for doing such amazing work and sharing so much knowledge 👏It's a very big pleasure to listen to 2 very respected and knowledgeable gentlemen in the shooting community. God bless you both.
Some think i am some how new the shooting industry. We never spoke on the topic or my background . Was a gunsmith for over 25 years . Shot benchrest and trap for many years. Been shooting long range for over 20 years . I manufactor tooling and excessories for the firearm industry. Performance is a package deal velocity with outaccuracy is useless everything i build is accurate amd produces low single digit s.d.'s
Great discussion guys. I really understand when he said “because I can”. No other explanation needed. We all have things we do because we can and enjoy doing it. When my wife says now what have you ordered I simply say “I’ve spared no cost dear!” 😅
I was bout to type this and looked and first comment was it…mark has alotta input on this subject and has been doin elr on here awhile makin shits past 4k
I've learned a lot from Mark and Pro, back when they used to post a lot on social media and the various forums. The vast majority of our factory cartridges today started out as wildcats. All of the belted magnums were wildcats with the exception of the 2 original case designs, the 300 H&H and the 378 Weatherby. And you could even argue that the 378 was a wildcat version of the 416 Rigby with a belt added. Everything based on the 30-06 and 308 cases was a wildcat at some point, originating from the German Mauser cartridge design. The amount of extra work it takes to develop and test a wildcat versus a SAAMI cartridge is huge. Much respect for all the time and effort Mark has put into developing all his wildcats.
My first venture into wildcatting was the .30 Herrett in a TC Contender. Loved that round. When I decided to try a wildcat again, I based it on an AR and the .223 case. I wanted to try the 6mm-.223 but could not find dies. I stumbled across the 6mm Mongoose, which is a necked up .223 with the shoulder pushed back slightly and angle changed. Allegedly it holds a couple more grains of powder, although I cannot verify that. The caliber requires only a barrel change to a standard AR. It's pretty hot, and so far I've loaded up to 85-grain bullets. Cases are easy to make--size, trim, fireform. It gets some attention at the range.
Interesting - I have a 6mm-223 in a Contender barrel. And, as I have the necessary dies, I have considered having a custom AR barrel made for it. I've also considered one in the 25-45 Sharps. Wildcat configurations are quite popular in Contenders.
I love the topic of leaving the bolt open or closed it depends mostly on him temperature sensitive your powder is then how the tempeture of the brass effects velocity and the temperature of your chamber it’s less about the temperature of your barrel and more about the temperature off your ammunition staying consistent
This Man is AMAZING,.....only to be Appreciated & Understood, from us guys that have their entire life invested into shooting research & development, (better known as the "sickness".....lol),...to be able to comprehend the "ahead of their time" & "opening doors to the future",.....I completely understand why you had trouble "trying to understand", Erik, ....being basically a new shooter in the shooting world, starting fairly late in life as you said, BUT, he was a GREAT one to interview - Thanks
He mentioned exactly what I’ve been doing. I’m “improving”/wildcatting a cartridge to get long action results from a short action frame. I made some rudimentary software to do all the calculations as I change the variables. Unfortunately, I think I made a mistake and got a reamer I don’t really have use for. LMAO I’m also having trouble finding a smith with the skills and equipment needed to actually make the parts. Know anyone around central Texas?
@Erik Cortina do you understand what 98000 psi gives you when the brass and the action are built for it? 400 fps higher muzzle velocity, at least. Mark Fox design is top notch.
I want to hear more explanation on the 6.5PRC clicker issue. According to SAAMI......cartridge diameter at .200 datum is .532" and chamber diameter at .200 datum is .533". Funny thing is this matches the SAAMI 7RSAUM spec. Do you get clickers in the 7RSAUM too??? This .001" clearance between the SAAMI cartridge and SAAMI chamber is pretty standard from what I see flipping through the SAAMI book. So......are people getting "clickers" in pretty much all other short action magnum diameter cartridges? Call me crazy but this "clicker" issue sure seems to be an issue other than reamer spec. You may be able to modify the SAAMI reamer spec (oversize the .200 dim.....Wheeler style) to mask the real issue......oversize chamber.......bad sizer die.......overpressure.......bad brass etc.
@@SigmaBallistics Yeah I have heard of the "AW" reamers. Why was there a version 1 and version 2??? Has there been any explanation of the root cause for "clickers"? Do clickers happen with new ammo or just reloaded/resized ammo? Just trying to figure out why the same .200 dimension clearance on the SAAMI 6.5prc doesn't cause clickers in other cartridges with teh same clearance.
I think it is a combination of the clearance at 200 and the case taper. Several cases can have the same issue, the Nosler cases can do the same. Something with more taper seems to exhibit less of the extraction issue.
There are several issues with clickers and the prc it can be solved by going with a larger chamber but again it requires full leingth sizing. the problem is brass alloy quality brass it to soft . It is a dead alloy so it does not rebound properly. Could solve the clicker issue by going super tight. Like the ppc .0005 per side this will also solve the problem . Rass cant move enough to retain a new memory It just simply rebounds
I’ve always thought a wildcat is basically anything where you need custom parts. 300-221 was a wildcat; now it’s 300BLK. Even an AI cartridge, if you need custom dies, it’s a wildcat…barely but it is.
The wise man sees what he can improve and moves forward, as well as realize what he cannot change and does not attempt. There for all improvements are due to the unwise man!
What’s the point? Well that question applies to most things in life. Why are there so many kinds of cars? Why are clothes different materials when cotton works fine? Why are new guns made when the old actions and frame shapes are still the basis? Life gets boring if there’s nothing to do even if there’s really no point. Hahaha
There alread is but its a waste of time. Action issues and not precision brass. The ones done in the past suffered from serious standard deviation issues
@@markfox-wm7yk from my understanding the SD issues are not only from the poor brass quality but also because the huge volume of powder, I was reading that McMillan was using flash tubes in his Fat Mac back in the day and was having some success, I assume if some nice CNC brass were made SD's would improve considerably, Pity RCC went bust was going to order some custom brass for a couple projects of mine soon.
The flash tube may help some areas but also causes more others issues. The biggest problem with the 20 mm just like the bmg its mechine gun ammo and not consistant. And the powder column is designed wrong. If your going to lathe turn a case why copy a obsolite shitty design why not just design every thing from scratch. Thats my thought.
@@markfox-wm7yk Except in practice people usually prefer the more economical and less financially risky approach to test out theories and design modifications on an exist parent case, then perhaps do a new and improved design after all the experimentation has been done.
Gravity is a constant.the only advantage is to get there quicker. Jacketed bullets spin themselves apart if spun too fast. Long and thin bullets need more spin. Mach 5 will melt most metals. Solid ceramic bullets with a sabot to seal the rifling and cushion the shock would handle the high velocity. Bullets are the next big deal. Maybe let it melt and just shoot plasma? No spin needed!
@Braxton Pappas Many people are experimenting with different alloys of solids. When they get hard enough to survive high speed, they won't engrave rifling. So they're back to jackets or sabots. What can survive 0 to Mach 5 in 30"?
@@Michael-rg7mx Not sure where you are getting mach 5 numbers from, definitely not in the small arms world. Top ELR cartridges aren’t even mach 3 yet. Currently there is no available cartridge out there to even push something worth a damn BC wise even remotely close to mach 5. Before we even start thinking about mach 5 with big bullets we need stronger cases with stronger actions and better powders. The only thing I know currently that is semi close to what you claim is the 10x100 bwa with one gentleman claiming 4,200 with a 415 grain projectile. BUT he is using completely custom, cnc lathe turned, super thick brass (not available to public) made of the best alloys and probably is using some secret sauce for powder (pressure are probably still insane) and is still a whole mach number off. im sure we will need better bullet alloys at some point but that sure as hell isn’t the next bridge we need to cross to get to mach 5
@@SigmaBallistics Wrong. The army has been testing as fast as Mach 20. Mach 5 is considered the threshold into hyper velocity. They have been using 2 piece sabot and very exotic metals. They have been using smooth bores and very little spin like 1in 100 twist. The heat from friction keeps melting projectiles.
It is a propriatory cartridge so reamer is only available threw me . Pierce engerneering does the builds. But currently with the closure of Rcc brass is a problem till i can get back into brass manufactoring mode. I will be making all my cartridges again like i was prior to Rcc.
He likes developing more cartridges and pushing the limits just like you want to shoot a better group or higher score 🤦. No difference and we always strive to not be stagnant and that's the logic
Kinda BS the new seirra reloading manual 6.5 creed TOP LOAD 46.6 grns Superformance powder 2800FPS with 150 grn .713 BC , - SHOW ME A 270 LOAD????? THE HIGHEST BC IS .662 BC 170GRN EVERYLOAD IS 2750FPS TOP IN 270 WITH LOWER BC , 270 WIN BETTER THAN 6.5 CREED i think NOT!
What a great man, Mark Fox is an amazing man, a great professional, and a man with huge knowledge. Eric, thank you very much for doing such amazing work and sharing so much knowledge 👏It's a very big pleasure to listen to 2 very respected and knowledgeable gentlemen in the shooting community. God bless you both.
Some think i am some how new the shooting industry. We never spoke on the topic or my background . Was a gunsmith for over 25 years . Shot benchrest and trap for many years. Been shooting long range for over 20 years . I manufactor tooling and excessories for the firearm industry. Performance is a package deal velocity with outaccuracy is useless everything i build is accurate amd produces low single digit s.d.'s
Good podcast. Thanks for sharing some insights.
Is there a computer program you prefer to use when drawing up dimensional outline and specification for a cartridge you're developing?
Solid works for lathe turning but for just generic designs quick design works fine .
It's about marketing
Great discussion guys. I really understand when he said “because I can”. No other explanation needed. We all have things we do because we can and enjoy doing it. When my wife says now what have you ordered I simply say “I’ve spared no cost dear!” 😅
Another good podcast, mark and sam after work for a podcast please.
His elr is a 24" steel plate for all ranges
Agree, I think Mark and Sam are great.Unfortunately I don’t think Eric would find there type of shooting “precision enough “ to be interested
@@daviddenyer756 he’s trying to talk to people from all aspects of the sport
I was bout to type this and looked and first comment was it…mark has alotta input on this subject and has been doin elr on here awhile makin shits past 4k
That would be a great podcast with Mark and Sam, cheers people ✌️🤙
Erik I love watching you talk to these people
I've learned a lot from Mark and Pro, back when they used to post a lot on social media and the various forums. The vast majority of our factory cartridges today started out as wildcats. All of the belted magnums were wildcats with the exception of the 2 original case designs, the 300 H&H and the 378 Weatherby. And you could even argue that the 378 was a wildcat version of the 416 Rigby with a belt added. Everything based on the 30-06 and 308 cases was a wildcat at some point, originating from the German Mauser cartridge design. The amount of extra work it takes to develop and test a wildcat versus a SAAMI cartridge is huge. Much respect for all the time and effort Mark has put into developing all his wildcats.
Mr fox you are brilliant informative and straight total respect to you I love your cartridges
My first venture into wildcatting was the .30 Herrett in a TC Contender. Loved that round. When I decided to try a wildcat again, I based it on an AR and the .223 case. I wanted to try the 6mm-.223 but could not find dies. I stumbled across the 6mm Mongoose, which is a necked up .223 with the shoulder pushed back slightly and angle changed. Allegedly it holds a couple more grains of powder, although I cannot verify that. The caliber requires only a barrel change to a standard AR. It's pretty hot, and so far I've loaded up to 85-grain bullets. Cases are easy to make--size, trim, fireform. It gets some attention at the range.
Interesting - I have a 6mm-223 in a Contender barrel. And, as I have the necessary dies, I have considered having a custom AR barrel made for it. I've also considered one in the 25-45 Sharps. Wildcat configurations are quite popular in Contenders.
That 300 Mr.X sounds very interesting
Making me dream about my wildcat plans again.... Now if the components I need would just come back in stock lol.
I love the topic of leaving the bolt open or closed it depends mostly on him temperature sensitive your powder is then how the tempeture of the brass effects velocity and the temperature of your chamber it’s less about the temperature of your barrel and more about the temperature off your ammunition staying consistent
This Man is AMAZING,.....only to be Appreciated & Understood, from us guys that have their entire life invested into shooting research & development, (better known as the "sickness".....lol),...to be able to comprehend the "ahead of their time" & "opening doors to the future",.....I completely understand why you had trouble "trying to understand", Erik, ....being basically a new shooter in the shooting world, starting fairly late in life as you said, BUT, he was a GREAT one to interview - Thanks
Awesome podcast...
He mentioned exactly what I’ve been doing. I’m “improving”/wildcatting a cartridge to get long action results from a short action frame. I made some rudimentary software to do all the calculations as I change the variables. Unfortunately, I think I made a mistake and got a reamer I don’t really have use for. LMAO I’m also having trouble finding a smith with the skills and equipment needed to actually make the parts. Know anyone around central Texas?
Great information.
@Erik Cortina do you understand what 98000 psi gives you when the brass and the action are built for it? 400 fps higher muzzle velocity, at least. Mark Fox design is top notch.
I want to hear more explanation on the 6.5PRC clicker issue. According to SAAMI......cartridge diameter at .200 datum is .532" and chamber diameter at .200 datum is .533". Funny thing is this matches the SAAMI 7RSAUM spec. Do you get clickers in the 7RSAUM too??? This .001" clearance between the SAAMI cartridge and SAAMI chamber is pretty standard from what I see flipping through the SAAMI book. So......are people getting "clickers" in pretty much all other short action magnum diameter cartridges? Call me crazy but this "clicker" issue sure seems to be an issue other than reamer spec. You may be able to modify the SAAMI reamer spec (oversize the .200 dim.....Wheeler style) to mask the real issue......oversize chamber.......bad sizer die.......overpressure.......bad brass etc.
this issue has been fixed, PRC AW2 reamers……guess what AW stands for lol
@@SigmaBallistics Yeah I have heard of the "AW" reamers. Why was there a version 1 and version 2??? Has there been any explanation of the root cause for "clickers"? Do clickers happen with new ammo or just reloaded/resized ammo? Just trying to figure out why the same .200 dimension clearance on the SAAMI 6.5prc doesn't cause clickers in other cartridges with teh same clearance.
@@AccuSol-ERN good question I am not sure on that
I think it is a combination of the clearance at 200 and the case taper. Several cases can have the same issue, the Nosler cases can do the same. Something with more taper seems to exhibit less of the extraction issue.
There are several issues with clickers and the prc it can be solved by going with a larger chamber but again it requires full leingth sizing. the problem is brass alloy quality brass it to soft . It is a dead alloy so it does not rebound properly. Could solve the clicker issue by going super tight. Like the ppc .0005 per side this will also solve the problem . Rass cant move enough to retain a new memory
It just simply rebounds
Need the Aussies Mark & Sam foran interview
I’ve always thought a wildcat is basically anything where you need custom parts. 300-221 was a wildcat; now it’s 300BLK. Even an AI cartridge, if you need custom dies, it’s a wildcat…barely but it is.
The wise man sees what he can improve and moves forward, as well as realize what he cannot change and does not attempt. There for all improvements are due to the unwise man!
What’s the point? Well that question applies to most things in life. Why are there so many kinds of cars? Why are clothes different materials when cotton works fine? Why are new guns made when the old actions and frame shapes are still the basis? Life gets boring if there’s nothing to do even if there’s really no point. Hahaha
Can I use the 416 collosus in a bartlein barrel chambered for 416 barrett?
No it wont work different bolt face size chamber is slightly smaller in diamiter and longer. it requires the use of the pierce 20x action
@@markfox-wm7yk thankyou mark
His hobby is wildcating not shooting. This maybe why Erik has a hard time understanding the why
Can you try to get David Tubbs on?
What is the 400 warlord adapted from
The warlord is a long virsion of the 375 mercenary
It's a matter of time people will be making wild cats based on the 20mm case
There alread is but its a waste of time. Action issues and not precision brass. The ones done in the past suffered from serious standard deviation issues
@@markfox-wm7yk from my understanding the SD issues are not only from the poor brass quality but also because the huge volume of powder, I was reading that McMillan was using flash tubes in his Fat Mac back in the day and was having some success, I assume if some nice CNC brass were made SD's would improve considerably, Pity RCC went bust was going to order some custom brass for a couple projects of mine soon.
The flash tube may help some areas but also causes more others issues. The biggest problem with the 20 mm just like the bmg its mechine gun ammo and not consistant. And the powder column is designed wrong. If your going to lathe turn a case why copy a obsolite shitty design why not just design every thing from scratch. Thats my thought.
@@markfox-wm7yk Except in practice people usually prefer the more economical and less financially risky approach to test out theories and design modifications on an exist parent case, then perhaps do a new and improved design after all the experimentation has been done.
Gravity is a constant.the only advantage is to get there quicker.
Jacketed bullets spin themselves apart if spun too fast. Long and thin bullets need more spin.
Mach 5 will melt most metals. Solid ceramic bullets with a sabot to seal the rifling and cushion the shock would handle the high velocity.
Bullets are the next big deal. Maybe let it melt and just shoot plasma? No spin needed!
i don’t agree bullets are next big deal, we already have copper solids.
i think the case is next up, so far none have caught on yet
@Braxton Pappas
Many people are experimenting with different alloys of solids. When they get hard enough to survive high speed, they won't engrave rifling. So they're back to jackets or sabots. What can survive 0 to Mach 5 in 30"?
@@Michael-rg7mx Not sure where you are getting mach 5 numbers from, definitely not in the small arms world. Top ELR cartridges aren’t even mach 3 yet.
Currently there is no available cartridge out there to even push something worth a damn BC wise even remotely close to mach 5.
Before we even start thinking about mach 5 with big bullets we need stronger cases with stronger actions and better powders.
The only thing I know currently that is semi close to what you claim is the 10x100 bwa with one gentleman claiming 4,200 with a 415 grain projectile.
BUT he is using completely custom, cnc lathe turned, super thick brass (not available to public) made of the best alloys and probably is using some secret sauce for powder (pressure are probably still insane) and is still a whole mach number off.
im sure we will need better bullet alloys at some point but that sure as hell isn’t the next bridge we need to cross to get to mach 5
@@SigmaBallistics
Wrong. The army has been testing as fast as Mach 20. Mach 5 is considered the threshold into hyper velocity. They have been using 2 piece sabot and very exotic metals. They have been using smooth bores and very little spin like 1in 100 twist. The heat from friction keeps melting projectiles.
@@Michael-rg7mx SMALL ARMS, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HAS ZERO RELEVANCE TOWARDS COMPETITION ELR
Can you plz comment on the 400 warlord thabkyou
Is it just me or is that 375 mercenary in the thumbnail crooked?
Its not its just the photo
I want that .408 colossus chambering
I don’t think it’s an issue to get a reamer but RCC is tits up right now so brass will be an issue
It is a propriatory cartridge so reamer is only available threw me . Pierce engerneering does the builds. But currently with the closure of Rcc brass is a problem till i can get back into brass manufactoring mode. I will be making all my cartridges again like i was prior to Rcc.
How’s the .400 Warlord doing?
The 400 warlord is owned and designed by Pro Martusheff . It works great. But again it suffers from the same issue . No Rcc brass
He likes developing more cartridges and pushing the limits just like you want to shoot a better group or higher score 🤦. No difference and we always strive to not be stagnant and that's the logic
buffalo rifle
Go faster....neck a .50 down to .224😁😁
It's called a Goesboom.
PO Ackley necked a .378 Weatherby down to 22. It’s called the 22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer
Accuracy first........
Kinda BS the new seirra reloading manual 6.5 creed TOP LOAD 46.6 grns Superformance powder 2800FPS with 150 grn .713 BC , - SHOW ME A 270 LOAD????? THE HIGHEST BC IS .662 BC 170GRN EVERYLOAD IS 2750FPS TOP IN 270 WITH LOWER BC , 270 WIN BETTER THAN 6.5 CREED i think NOT!
😂