Game Design Case Study - Knowledge Based Progression
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- In this video, we take a look at my first impressions playing 3 game jam games from Ludum Dare 51. Each of the games features knowledge based progression. This means there are mechanics or abilities that the player has access to, but they aren't taught about them until later. I seriously enjoy the first 2 games I play in this video, but am not a huge fan of the 3rd. Let's as aspiring game designers, try to figure out why that is and discuss it in the comments.
Any criticism I give to the games is not me saying that the games are bad or the developers did a bad job. These games were made in 2-3 days and that's amazing! The criticism I give is entirely to help the developer and myself learn about game design.
Here are the links to the games on ludum dare's site:
ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/5...
ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/5...
ldjam.com/events/ludum-dare/5...
And here are the links to my full playthrough videos unedited:
• The Curse of Tencond R...
• BUN-hop Review
• J-Menuing Review
Chapters:
0:00 The Curse of Tencond
5:02 BUN-hop
9:24 J-Menuing - Hry
Time limits on the last one, you need to give time to the player to get the mecanic if you dont tell it
I agree with this being a big factor, primarily because it becomes difficult for the player to learn with the time crunch. It also becomes more difficult to learn when there are multiple reasons why the player's actions were failing; Vykri got confused about the colors representing physical / magic attack vulnerabilities around 12:04 - 12:09, in part because right as he was about to test his hypothesis with a physical attack on the red enemy at the bottom, there was a kill order shuffle and the attack failed due to "Wrong kill order!" but it wasn't obvious with the only feedback being the text bubble on the bottom of the screen, especially because so much text flashes by in there while the player is trying to focus on the combat. I think with more clear feedback such as a specific visual or audio queue that denotes the WHY of an attack failing, it would be more clear feedback for the player to learn the mechanics and might make it more enjoyable rather than frustrating.
@@jasperlooman562 Ooh, audio queues for different reasons definitely seems like it would have helped clear up my confusion. You're right about it being difficult to read while playing. I wonder if just making small changes like that would have made it less frustrating or if there's something wrong with the design at its core.
Knowledge gating, when done right, is so awesome. Sick finding this channel, so early too. This is good stuff! Fez handled it similarly to Tunic, even down to an optional language to decypher, both are in my top 5
I completely agree! Knowledge based progression feels like unexplored territory in game design. So few games have done it, but it feels so good to learn a new mechanic that has always existed and recontextualizes the entire game you've experienced so far.
I think J-Menuing is bugged or at least doesn't have its timings right. At 11:48 you picked Magic vs 1 Blue which should have killed it but Kill Order Shuffle took effect during the attack animation while the shuffle animation was queued up (so you couldn't see the 1 change to 2) which forced you into Wrong Kill Order.
Enemy colors should've been different too, the red + blue mix they picked is too close to blue which unintentionally created more friction than was probably intended.
Yeah, it was super unfortunate that the kill order shuffle happened at the exact time that I was testing my hypothesis of colors determining weakness. I don't think it's bugged, per say, but the kill order shuffle happening at random intervals that can take place during an attack is certainly not my favorite design decision they made haha.
The issue was clarity. The game was trying to tell you what you did wrong, but only in this tiny little text-box at the bottom that flashed away really quickly.
I saw it immediately and wondered why he didn't respond to it, but that is why playtesting exists. Too bad there is no time for that during the LD :D
edit: for clarity, play testing by a bigger group. ;)
I feel like the lack of feedback on the 3rd game removes the feeling of discovery when you find out how to kill an enemy. Since there is little to no feedback you're not actually sure that you discovered something new or made progress. In Tunic however it is very obvious that you make progress and understand the hints you've just been given, either by unlocking new secret areas that open up visually or by very obvious audio cues.
I also think the kill order is quite confusing since personally I don't really know any other game that does this, I feel like it could be better displayed if the numbers are inside the monsters rather than beneath, and instead of swapping the numbers, I would swap the monsters position (and let them keep their number)
I agree. It didn't feel like discovery because the lack of feedback made me unsure if I discovered something or if I just got the kill by accident. Making it more clear that the enemy died BECAUSE my discovery was correct feels better than having to test several theories before going, "oh, I guess that first theory was right".
The last game has a combination of problems but I think the obvious one is the flow of the game. The flow chart goes to challenging too quickly because of the timer when you haven't yet learned the mechanic so it's frustrating. It dousn't leave time to think. I think the timer should come in later and that would give more time to learn the game and already improve it.
Interesting take that the timer should come in later. In that case the game's loop would be like
1. Play in a sandbox for a bit to try and figure out the mechanics.
2. Test your knowledge of the mechanics in a timed challenge.
3. Potentially repeat steps 1 and 2 with a new mechanic, layering complexity and possibly seeing how previously learned mechanics interact with new ones.
I could see a game with that loop being very interesting if done correctly. Good thought!
Similar to what others are saying, but I'd describe it was failure to reward the player (and made that progression CONTINUE to be meaningful - I think is also really important here) that made the third game's experience bad.
In all of the other games, when you hit a mark of progression it allowed you to immediately use your newfound capabilities. Beyond that, it also didn't punish you/get in the way in any form for trying to use those newfound capabilities either.
J-Menuing, on top of it potentially being bugged, had conflicting mechanics that prevented you from actually utilizing your unlocked capabilities confidently/reliably, leading you to question if what you'd learned was even useful. In the first two games, the mechanisms played into the timers well to push you in a direction to improve and use your new capabilities. With J-Menuing, the added timer doesn't help push you forward in any meaningful way in my opinion. The combination of the menus, the random kill orders, and ADDED with the timer, meant you're fighting the experience more than actually discovering and progressing.
Great analysis! I think the biggest things you mentioned are that it shouldn't feel punishing to experiment and that I shouldn't have to question if what I'd learned was useful or correct.
not normalizing input wouldn't make zigzagging faster, it's only faster when moving at a diagonal. if you're moving straight down, diagonal down and directly down will be the same speed.
You know what, I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right! I take it back, Curse of Tencond is literally unplayable haha