Commander Hot Takes | Commander Clash Podcast #43
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2022
- Prepare to have your jimmies rustled!
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"You're up against four people..." -- Tomer including himself as his own (hardest) opponent.
You can trust no one, not even yourself.
Trust nobody, not even yourself.
I would like that comment (truth?) even more if that were possible 😂
in a pot of 4 you're always up against four people, not just tomer.
look at our clash-crew:
crim fights mtgo,
phil draws sol ring and aggro,
seth somehow durdles in boros,
richard is in an abusive relationship with random birds,
tomer fights salt and sequencing.
@@ddublu “Richard is in an abusive relationship with some random birds” I hope their children are safe
“I have a proxied cedh deck and an $8000 kaldra deck”
-Tomer on the duality of man
Crim: "I run 11 board wipes"
I think we learned where his mana troubles are coming from
He even admitted under his breath that he could just remove lands to fit more in 😂
I have 1 deck with 11 board wipes in it and that's my Atla eldrazi/blightsteel/worldslayer turbo deck where they can trigger Atla or clear the board for an easy hit.
But I do also have a Zurgo helmsmasher deck that has 30 board wipes.
My jaw dropped when he said that
This is why people are starting to run completely non-permanent combo based win-cons.
You don't need mana for Sunscour!
I play in a pod of close friends. I started to get more into commander and buy better cards to improve my deck. My pod couldn't keep up with some of the decks and they werent in a place to sink the money like i am. I was unable to play my newer tunned decks and no we were collectivly having less fun.
One day i suggested they proxy cards into decks they wanted to build for missing cards. It was the best thing. We resurged and play so much more now. Proxies are the best way to level a game when players have different financial situations but all share a love for MTG
When you combine the rising cost of many commander cards with some people's current financial statuses, proxies are one of the things that are keeping me in the game at all. Being able to keep your deck forever doesn't matter when your deck becomes so overshadowed by some of these new cards being so pushed. I'm lucky to have been playing for a while and have a decent sized collection to build decks from, but sudden emergencies and swelling financial responsibilities have prevented me from being able to 'keep up' with the new stuff.
My group has done $ limits. Like, we set a $30 limit and everyone creates a new deck. Or a $75 one to loosen it up.
Yeah proxies are the best way to play... why spend a crapload of money on a casual game?
Yeah, the thing they missed with the envying shortcuts, pay-to-win thing, was that this kind of situation should never come up. You discuss it with your play group, and you set the rules. like "don't proxy duals" or something that you all agree to. and when you play with randoms, don't use proxied cards. easy as that.
Or since you have multiple decks you could just not whale on all of them instead of making everyone work around you.
I always appreciate Richard's contributions to the podcast. I think many discussions would be very one-sided without his input. He's not being contrarian - they are thoughtful points.
The crew is good. A lot of conflicting opinions, and therefore potential discussion, arise from a grixis player, a mono-white player, a budget player, and a player who never pays the one for rhystic study
the devil's advocate stuff seems unnecessary, it really only servers to give validation to views that should not be validated. other than that he's great, but because of that he's the only one I ever find myself getting actively annoyed with things he's saying but then saying he doesn't agree/believe.
for instance I think he harped on proxies for far to long.
Richard has been the MVP on the main podcast forever, so it wouldn't surprise me if he's the MVP on this one too.
I have some foiled out decks and it would have absolutely zero impact on my enjoyment to know all of my opponents' decks were proxied. I did it because I liked it, but I'm here to chill and play games with my friends first and foremost. I want them to enjoy the game *and* feel comfortable about their personal finances.
I have a friend that plays alot of cards that benefit the spell's caster and one opponent. He calls it coerced friendship. And it honestly works to get on people's good side
My political chaos deck runs 50% political cards, and 50% random chaos nonsense like timesifter. No win conditions, just commander magic in its purest of forms.
Leovold but bant
Unless, come to the table with synergy to tilt the balance. Secret Rendezvous followed by Notion Thief is just gross; 3 mana for 5-6 cards is disgusting and is a rate that does on occasion see all the way up to cedh pods.
@@2ogres1cup50 if you want a 2nd deck similarish play a group hug deck with knowledge pool and eye of the storm thrown in lol.
ramp everyone up then just watch fire works when either of those gets played.
*Opponent pulls out naked cat lady sleeved deck*
Crim: “Ahhh, a man of culture I see.”
I think Richard has a good point about single target removal but i value it more because when you have a Swords in hand, you don’t have to fire it off at the first creature to hit the board. Even if your opponent plays something really scary, 2/3 of the time they will use it against one of your opponents. The advantage single target removal has over sweepers is that you can wait till the last possible second to fire it off and take the most advantage of your opponents threats
Even with something like Craterhoof, your opponent is usually trying to be precise with the math to kill all 3 of you, so if you Swords one of the creatures sent your way (especially if there is just one creature coming your way) you benefit immensely
Plus the political aspect: "If you attack me your creature will die. Are you sure you don't want to attack someone else?" or "Player A, I can save you from player B's attack. What cna you do for me?"
i still think swords is an auto include. richards point just kept coming back to “instead just generous gift or teferis protection”. Well you play all 3…thats not really a solid point.
no, it wont help with a dockside etb but neither will generous gift. in fact swords will exile it and prevent its loops whereas gift will let them recur it. ive never once had a swords in hand and not feel great. its offensive, defensive, and can break combos and loops
@@joe2125 yep, a buddy of mine plays a bruna deck, I love having path or swords in hand early game because it means I'm never worried about him. And at my LGS it's pretty casual with not alot of combo decks. So this whole time was going off I was wondering what he was talking about because it sounded like he was talking about CEDH or very boarderline.
There's an overemphasis on going net-negative on cards. Single target removal really does answer the threat when you need to while still giving you enough mana to actually play your game/not nuking your own board in the process. Keeping W open rather than 2W matters. Letting an opponent sink some resource into building for an attack or creature combo and then removing it for W is massive. It's not just about the card, it's about the play, state of the game, etc.
Basically don't fall for the meme that 1-4-1 is always strictly incorrect. Hoping to Tef Prot your way out and just letting the opponent accrue value can backfire to a single 1-4-1 counter. Wiping the board every time you see something is overkill (which is almost always strictly incorrect) and sets you back too. Most casual creature decks are synergy based and get blown out by smart interaction which cheap 1-4-1 can do well enough.
Richard has the hottest of takes even when he is counter arguing someone else's hot take.
Richard speaks the truth!
@@marsrocks247 not always, lol. Completely disagree with his spot removal take. In casual commander, spot removal is fine, against certain decks it's necessary, but it does matter what you're up against.
@@2ogres1cup50 If I dont have some cheap removal I get galtad every time 😅
swords is so cheap mana that it has to take the spot if you take a creature spot removal and i think at least 1 is worth having
@@darthsnarf yes, def
Per proxying take: I had a friend give me their collection a decade+ ago. I actively played in that time. They wanted to play commander and I gave them a deck so they could play.
I told them the price of the deck just so they wouldn't lose the deck but they let me know they wouldn't have gotten into the game of they had to spend $500 on a deck just to actually play at a table.
Proxy a whole deck and have fun.
I dont think proxying should be a hot take in today’s economy for a casual format. Tbh my hot take is all formats should allow proxying nobody should be restricted from playing due to the amount of disposable income they have to spend on cards
@@ConstanceMists Play the player not their wallets, money shouldn't indicate "skill" of the game. I still hold myself to the "own at least a copy of whatever I proxy" but if my group all wanted to play cedh full duals, time twister, tabernacle decks I wouldn't care less if someone just scribbled that on the back of a basic
if it isn't playing for prizes in a sanctioned event, just make it legible
@@jamespatterson5644 even in sanctioned events proxies should be allowed, otherwise you’re not really going against the best players just the ones that can afford the best decks
You actually don't need a $500 deck to play the format, precons are less than a 10th of that.
On the note of proxying cheaper cards, a deck made out of a 0,50 average card cost can still cost as much as half of someones monthly groceries
Richard was playing devils advocate cuz he's got mixed feelings about the subject. He obviously doesn't personally care if people at his table use proxies
AND? Whats your point? If they cant afford to buy the .50 cent cards they shouldnt be trying to get into the game.....wizards isnt selling a game system like DnD...they are selling THE CARDS. THE CARDS ARE THE GAME. If you cant afford to play....why do you feel entitled to steal wizards intellectual property and play the game for free? There is a reason they make 20$ precons
@@dxdraiba7604The point is not about if proxying is ok or not.
It is about that being ok with proxying curtain "expensive" cards, but not curtain "cheap" cards makes no sense
Those are subjective measures.
Every card that is more expensive to buy than to proxy has a valid reason to be proxied
(again, not taking into acount if you want to be ok with proxying or not)
@@dxdraiba7604 lol, stow the capitalist garbage. intellectual property laws shouldn't even exist anyway.
@@delathenleso5793 First, any table I am at proxies are more than welcome and you don't need a reason (such as ones people come up with like "I have the real one in a binder" or "I bought it and it's in the mail") and you can even proxy basic lands if you need to. Second, you are absolutely wrong about Richard's intentions and beliefs and you yourself are being a jerk for no reason. He's the one that codes the website and literally has an option to print proxies when you upload a deck list. The reason he does need to play devil's advocate is that in real life unfortunately, there are going to be people who don't agree with proxies. So while it would be nice that everyone was proxy friendly, it's important that players understand when you go to a game store you are likely to run into people who aren't, and they might have their reason whether we agree with them or not. Once you get to that point, they might refuse to play with you or you can refuse to play with them, but that point of discussion is that they should be more accepted, because they currently are not universally accepted. Changing the mind of the people who don't like proxy is going to take more of an argument than "you just hate poor people, don't you?". People have their reasons and it's important to know why if you want to get them to see your reasons for being pro-proxy.
I like how Richard kept saying sword was bad because it doesn’t stop hoof, but none of the cards he said he would rather run stop hoof type things either.
Hoof after boardwipe is useless
Huh? He literally said play a fog or Teferis pro. You probably win if you cast Teferis pro into their craterhoof
Hoof with a propaganda out would be really good. Then boast board wipe its still there
I think Richard is still Salty that his Lu Xun, Scholar General commander that he played turn 1 with Jeweled Lotus got Swords to Plowshare and totally ruined his game which is why he is picking on Swords to Plowshare.
@@delathenleso5793 Swords in the best removal in the game lmao, there is nothing to be biased about.
Richards argument against spot removal made me want to put more sport removal in my decks.
He really hates spot removal? Yeah its not the most powerful effect, but it is what you need when you need it. I only play a few but saying swords is bad is just wrong.
@@delathenleso5793 huh? I swear he ranked it s tier in their ranking video, and crim dropped it to a b. damn my crummy memory
@@delathenleso5793 He picked the one creature in the game that can realistically kill you with a single etb
there really is almost nothing that doesn't require a loop or other pieces already on the board to kill you with ETBs
The funniest Stax piece I ever played was angel of jubilation. I was playing against a sac deck that didn’t have any removal that could kill my angel because his removal required his to sac creatures
I love that card! Also that story just enforces why everybody needs to play generically good removal spells in every deck they play, not just synergistic ones or on theme ones
Similar thing happened to me, but with yasharn. Dude at the table had an infernal grasp and sacrifice-based removal and couldnt do anything the whole game lol
@@ConstanceMists need? absolutely not. its commander, theme matters to a lot people more than winning slightly more often. should? yeah probably, and then I could play stax without everyone throwing a fit because they can't answer! what a world that would be to live in.
not my fault 1 random card locks your entire deck.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 nah youre honestly just bad if you don’t play catch all removal and get locked out by a stax piece all game. Beast within, gen gift, anguished unmaking, whatever it is it defo isn’t gonna decrease your win% by not having “on theme” cards in place of those
@@ConstanceMists "you're bad" only applies if they aren't choosing to build a deck like that and are doing so in ignorance.
I'm a stax player myself, I know the value. arguably spot removal is most effect itself in stax and taxes decks. when your 5 cmc is now 9 and I remove it with a 1 drop you're in pain. some people just wanna play ruxa with only flavor text creatures and forests.
those players do need to some degree also just accept that they will almost always lose and not get mad that they chose to build a deck with no removal and then can't deal with hate. throws some politics cards in to get people to remove stuff for you is also fun. but again people can do w.e they like and if they have fun they didn't build a bad deck really.
you seem to lean more towards cedh, as do I, but not everyone does.
I'm not against proxies, but I think the main issue with them is that they are clearly impacting deck homogenization and in turn skewing people's opinion on power levels. Docksides, Smothering Tithes, Rhystics - I feel like the people who see these cards every single game are playing with huge budgets or playing with proxies. My play group is medium power/medium spend/no proxies, and at most we own maybe one dockside or fierce guardianship (or on the top end, a gaea's cradle or dual land) across our 5-10 decks each. We only see a Dockside maybe once a session (2-3 games). In that way, cards like sol ring that appear in EVERY deck we have are much bigger problem, and if we all had 10 playable proxies of Dockside, of course we would see it every game and see it as the massive bannable problem the rest of the community does.
I don’t use proxies, but I think they’re always acceptable. A game that’s pay to win isn’t worth playing. Otherwise the players could just compare bank accounts instead of pulling out their decks. On the topic of power creep because of proxies that should be covered by rule 0. If you don’t want fast mana, say so.
The pay to win excuse is such a cop out, did Yugi back down when he faced 3!!!! Blue Eyes White Dragons?! Literally the only other copy was torn to shreds. He had to expectation of assembling exodia. No he went in there and he tried to out strategize. If money alone mattered Foil Jund would be the best modern deck, and Lands would be the only legacy deck. In commander there’s so many powerful budget options available, if you don’t have the $$$ for a Tabernacle and a Mishra’s that doesn’t mean you can’t compete. .30¢ counter spell beats $900 reserved list staples every time. You don’t have to have a mana crypt or a grim monolith to exile a graveyard or swords to plowshare the biggest threat on the board. You don’t need fetch lands, shocks or OG duals to have a good mana base.
I’m not against proxies, but the pay to win BS is ridiculous. Are you even playing to win? Or are you trying to force a bunch of 6+ mana spells with a 35 land deck? Do you know how to assess threats or do you ignore the storm player so you can get revenge on the Stax player that cost you two extra mana to cast your beloved Magma Vein? Do you cast a turn 2 winter orb for no reason?
@@tcurrid8059 I thoroughly enjoyed the Yugioh reference xD. I don’t disagree that there are cheap cards in the format that are powerful. Also you’re correct that actual skill is a factor in winning. The issue is the range of cards that you’d have for deck building. For instance if you’re limiting yourself when deck building to cards that are 1 dollar and bellow, there would be a huge chunk of cards you now don’t have access to. I don’t think people should have to limit their card pool when deck building, allowing for more powerful and coherent strategies. Deck building is a skill shouldn’t be limited due to income.
@@tcurrid8059 but narratively yugi is an underdog because Kiba has money. Of course both Kiba and yugi are good at the game but the audience roots for yugi because he’s at an inherent disadvantage. So while it’s not entirely pay to win it’s at least partially pay to win. Otherwise it wouldn’t narratively make sense.
@@tcurrid8059 okay sure but pay to play whatever you want... still doesn't sound good to me. Sure whatever in competitive, but casual commander?
@@tcurrid8059 that argument falls apart real fast in the context of the cards relevant. if someone has the money for 5 color goodness I don't care how you pilot your doubling season squirrel token deck is, 9/10 you're getting stomped. their
dockside, manacrypt, mana vault, smothering tithe, mana drain, jeweled lotus og mox's+opal+amber againt you're 3 drop rocks is paying to win in that context
im being a bit extreme with og mox but still, when 1 player has a $1000+ manabase against a precon, they paid to win. thats what we are talking about here.
and yes they are getting revenge on me
Some of these did, indeed, rustle my jimmies. Mission accomplished, friends. 😅👍
wasnt richard the one that played a jeweled lotus t1 and cast his 4 mana cost commander only to be met with swords...just saying.
Also, I think the notion that giving your opponents resources is a downside in Commander is a 60-card competitive mindset. In a social game where you can develop alliances and make deals its 100% upside. Card draw, creatures, anything is fine. I've won game after letting my opponents tutor with Varragoth. It's sneaky good, and people are being short sighted in opposition to this effect.
I like group hug decks and take some of that mindset into other types of decks. Opponents get a little something but always get yourself more.
I think the complication with this is that you have diminishing returns over time with this strategy.
If you become perceived as a good political player, leveraging your alliances into wins, people become less likely to deal with you. If the strategy is getting you wins, it can increase your threat level and then undermine its own efficacy.
I think this only applies when you have a consistent playgroup. I think politics are useful, but they only get you so far.
@@erikallen4923 That's all true, but I think it also depends on how you apply these ideas. If you advertise yourself as a political deck or player, people will put up social shields and be less likely to engage. Sharing tutors with Varragoth for example is good leverage, counteroffers in political battles and a blow softener so people are less mad when you attack them.
What you're saying makes sense on paper, but we've seen on Clash that despite everybody knowing Richard's tricks, he still does very well and gets wins. I think the momentary advantage of somebody giving you something for free outweighs the potential that said opponent can leverage your favor into a win - at least that's how people interpret the facts in the moment. After all, you're in control of *how much favor you give*.
But a savvy player will take whatever they're given and make good things happen with it regardless.
I dont think that it's an infallible strategy by any means, just an underrated one which is viewed poorly by people with more competitive mindsets in a format which is social in nature.
@@TheSpunYarn you can't really take clash games ad a proof of concept, they have all admitted to not being a normal play group and doing plays they wouldn't do in other groups. Richard gets away with what he does because Crim always gunned for Tomer, Seth durdled, and Richard slow rolled to never seem to be the treat letting them all focus on each other. Iv been playing for a few years now and have never seen a pod play like this.
@@atk9989 I think they're a good example of a pod of friends who consistently play with each other. Definitely not evidence that sharing resources is powerful. But an example to point to of moments where it has been successful.
Richard: Every creature needs to be removed!
Also Richard: *plays bird tribal*
If you want to build decks that lead to interactive and interesting games, having efficient one-for-one answers is probably a good idea. You might be down a card, but put you and your playgroup further ahead in the progress of the game. It's like the Secret Rendevous of fun.
How do you plan on interactive and interesting games when the meta is "the first spell that actually resolves wins the game"? Isn't that the definition of non-interactive gameplay?
@@dontmisunderstand6041do you run removal?
@@JonReid01 Yes, but never 1 for 1 removal.
Tomer's desire for more inexpensive versions of cards with a super blinged version is how the yugioh tcg functions iirc, or at least to some extent
I 100% think this would massively improve the game. Those willing to drop 80+$ on a single card will continue to do so for the premium versions. The prof has a great video that really shows how much WoTC is quite purposefully avoiding reprinting staples for commander.
This is semi-true, a lot of "staple" yugioh cards are printed in high rarity and become very expensive. They stay that way for about a year or so usually until they get reprinted in a lower rarity and become more accessible. This is a vicious cycle and happens all the time in yugioh. Sometimes the reprint doesn't even drop the price all that much and they still remain expensive. Ash blossom is a staple card and has seen multiple reprints, but is still around $30 dollars despite this.
@@Codly68 And Ash Blossom literally goes in every deck in ygo. But yes, reprints at a lower rarity would be good for mtg as well, as most of the desired reprints are well over a year old.
@@Codly68 mtg takes rares/uncommons that became staples and prints them at HIGHER rarity in masters products lol
@@Codly68
For all the stupid things konami does, this is still somehow infinitely better than what WotC does and the Reserved List
30$ is still horrible (At least today still it's like 28$), but you'd bet that something like Ash Blossom equivalent in MTG, where people would run in every deck that is this powerful, you are probably looking at something that costs at least 70$ and upwards.
That said, the real way of bringing its price down is make a lot of precons of good value and make every precon contains Ash Blossom, because imagine how expensive Sol Ring would be if it wasn't done like this, I'd be very surprised if it costs less than 30$.
Unfortunately yugioh is really hard for any new player to just pick up a semi-modern deck and play, which makes precons kinda pointless...
Tomer: idk I don't care about hybrid mana
Also Tomer: here's my thesis on why hybrid mana would ruin commander
Lol I love these takes
Richard changed his argument and acted like it was what he was saying no less than three times, using those commander tactics in conversations, nice.
Also not very kind with Tomer at 1:14:00
I think this is the most ‘progressive’ the whole commander clash crew has ever done. Not only did they provide hot takes, but a lot of them had good support and a healthy discussion. Love it.
Dude Richard's argument against proxies is the exact opposite of progressive. His arguments were:
- people who spent a lot of money into the cards may feel bad
- magic is a luxury product... while he acknowledges tying functionality to it is a problem
- otherwise how can people justify spending thousands on their collections? ... they can't that's why you should proxy
- literally saying you accept proxies cause you are a good person ... so you are defending bad people
- didn't have an argument against the difference in price for different printings and how a cheaper vesion didn't take away from the most expensive one. His only comeback was ... choice?
It really sounded like a guy mad plebs were able to play with the same cards he has. That's basically the stance he was defending, specifically when he asked then why people are salty about it.
@@chebi97 He was playing devils advocate and being honest with why the topic is controversial. He personally doesn’t care about proxies, he’s just explaining the real psychological reasoning someone would feel upset about it. He’s simply pointing out that a lot of people take pride in their possessions and presenting the other side. It wouldn’t be a constructive discussion if everyone just said “It should be allowed” and didn’t acknowledge why it’s controversial for some people.
@@BeastlyP1g devils advocate isn't like a defense though, the only thing it actually does is validate a toxic opinion that should not be validate for the people who hold it. anti proxy players should be ignored entirely. he went on for FAAAR too long.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305
I disagree. This is objectively an opinion based matter, just because the majority of us feel an opinion is “toxic” doesn’t mean they are wrong and we are right. Richard explaining the rational of… (let’s call them Whales) whales can’t make another opinion more or less justified. You can argue that opinion or view should be ignored, but I think that’s extremely irresponsible. There are really only two sides to the debate, pro-proxie or anti-proxie, with pro-proxie having different levels of support. If you don’t adequately acknowledge the other perspective a meaningful debate can’t occur. While again, Richard and ourselves may not agree with the whales position, it’s still important to discuss it. If you want to change a whales mind you sometimes need to approach the problem from a whales perspective.
Summary- Richard is simply explaining the basic defense of ‘Whales’ as well as providing some insight into why they feel the way they do. Without that it’s not really a debate.
For me the stax debate is like playing mill against some people. Some people irrationally attack the light stax like they irrationally are afraid of mill. But also as the stax player you have to know that you will get heat for it too.
I once played an Altar of the Brood turn 1 in my Brago list and got focused by the Gishath dino deck for "playing mill"
yeah. I love playing stax, but I'm afraid to even ask people if they will let me because of how absurdly angry some people get. I do accept being archenemy though, if you play stax your deck puts the rest of the table on a randomized clock and you probably know that. at a certain point you win the game by default because you can no longer be answered in any meaningful way, which is the point.
I think stax makes a great archenemy, tells people you play it and invite them to take out their hatred of it against you 3v1 off the bat. surprise stax is a jerk move admittedly.
Mill is never a fair deck, because fair mill can't win. They know the deck inherently relies on one single turn that instantly wins teh game regardless of anything else that happened during the game. That's why people hate mill, not because their cards go to the grave.
@@dontmisunderstand6041
Fair Mill is a "feels bad" to play against but are realistically combo decks
Because your opponent sees what they could've drawn (Especially since you mill from the top), and they get more and more sad to know what they could've done vs what they can't do rn.
So in general you get the hate for making people feel bad and also for playing essentially combo decks.
It's a double whammy of hate.
@@adamxue6096 Fair mill feels bad because it feels like someone at the table isn't trying to play, too.
"The GoldFather" is my nomination for Richards nickname
Gold Dick, his winkey is a key.
Richard: single target removal is bad
Also Richard: if you play a card that stops my game plan its a feel bad so nobody should play drannith magistrate
And bith is true. :D
Single Target Removal should not end an entire deck’s plan….
There are some logical fallacies in this Hot Take. Same goes for Dockside Extortionist. Run more hatebear and single target removal. Problem solved. It's almost as if there is no problem lol.
@@VexylObby then don't build a bad deck
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena That was my point.
I'm actually building a five color goad deck and the Hunted cycle is great in that deck with the ultimate goal of casting Mob Rule to attack with all the creatures you donated.
Have Disrupt Decorum in it for big damage.
fight to the death might be a good half board wipe for that. also theres a squirrel token card and a snake token card that can generate everyone creatures, squirrel all at once where everyone can dump mana into it not just you and snake over time whenever people put lands into play. don't remember the names sorry.
cool deck idea.
theres also journey together? or something where you pay 1 and then everyone else (including you but why pay? make them) pays as much as they want them all players search and play x basic lands. so you ramp everyone let them play the big stuff and swipe it with thief effects after they get those goaded counters.
Tomer was wrong about MaRo's statement on white.
What Mark said about white is that they wanted to find a way white could get card advantage that felt white. Just like impulsive draw felt red. He ultimately lost that argument though.
Also the hybrid design problem Mark said before was that making new hybrid cards aren't as fun because the most popular format won't use them the way they were intended.
I could see white pulling creatures from the top of your deck to the battlefield instead of drawing. Or more regrowth effects as card advantage.
Honestly every commander clash podcast episode has hot takes 😂 and I'm here for it. Love those discussions
30:15 after waiting for Seth to be the voice of reason on Swords to Plowshares legitimacy, my reaction was exactly Tomer’s
Lmao same
Seth is always the most agreeable with his opinions in these videos, this shit shocked me. It felt like watching a character in a show I really like pulling a face-heel turn
As for the color identity and hybrid mana... it is honestly just an aesthetic thing for me, if someone is playing a mono-red deck, I don't want to see a green card, it messes with the solid color. I know this is a dumb reason, but even if the rules changed I would probably still build my decks that way.
1:10:45 100% with Crim on Stax. The more soft/light Stax pieces like Drannith Magistrate and Thalia are fine, but Winter Orb and Stasis suck
But you have so many ways to tap orb down for yourself now. Just do it before your upkeep and then untap it with all your lands
I think stax pieces are fine in moderation but things that completely lock people out of the game are honestly just not game pieces I would ever feel good about casting. Like sure you can play winter orb but thats the equivalent of trying to play a game of pickup basketball where all your opponents shoes are glued to the floor. Is it really that fun for the people playing these kinds of cards…? Also the RC bans crap like Iona for the SAME EXACT REASON that people hate cards like Stasis and Vorinclex which just do the job better and dirtier. I love small light stax pieces like thalia just as a necessary means to slow my opponents down because this format is cracked, but stax as an archetype or a deck strategy is just lame period. Anyone can build a stax deck and make the game super unfun so the people who do play full stax and act like they got everyone good just annoy the crap out of me
@@ConstanceMists if you know you're against stax and have more than 1 deck then at least 1 should be able to knock some of their pieces out yeah? also as soon as any major stax piece is out everyone should be trying to kill the stax player. by playing stax we choose to be archenemy essentially, cause yeah the point is that my deck puts the table on a randomized clock and when time is up you can no longer meaningfully interact with me. stax vs control+aggro+super friends or w.e isn't jn the stax players favor btw, even if you turn 1 stasis.
My problem with Richard’s take on swords is if every creature comes in and wins the game what’s the point if board wipes or anything that can hit creatures and it’s much easier to preemptively hold 1 up in case a big threat like Jin or a blightsteel is played as opposed to 3
It does start to get into that area of only having spells to deal with creatures that you hold up all your mana casting. When you turn everything into a "where is the value for me if I kill this" argument, it's completely ignoring the value of them having a card that is a huge threat to you at that specific moment, their commander is a guarantee and they'll get it back one or two turns laters (not as negligible as people think) but how many Disciple of the Vaults do they have in their deck that are probably going to kill you next turn? I don't wanna boardwipe a Disciple of the Vault and like 3 creatures on the board I'd rather have around.
it’s not that every creature wins on etb, it’s just that some do, and in those cases it doesn’t matter if you held up one mana or not. A swords won’t protect you from craterhoof, but a fog or a teferis protection or a march of swirling mists will
@@mywife69 the problem with that argument though, is that you’ve had to leave up that Teferi’s Protection or whatever, and they’re NOT 1 mana. If you are playing your own cards, you’re not leaving up 4 mana or whatever, and swords might save you.
Yeah there’s situations where it doesn’t, but in the majority of those, neither would anything else.
@@Dragiceoriginal you don’t have to hold up three mana all the time, only when you anticipate that your opponent is going to try to kill you. if your opponent suddenly goes off without warning and is going to kill you on their turn, chances are it’s with something other than hitting you with a big hasty creature. it’s going to be with some kind of instant speed/artifact combo, or with an etb, or something else that can’t be touched by swords.
these days, the situations where swords doesn’t save you are so numerous that holding up one mana all the time is not worth it, where as selectively holding up three mana to actually save your skin is more useful. are you gonna die sometimes? sure, but i’d rather die tapped out than get aetherfluxed in the face with a swords in hand
@@mywife69 Sure but you don’t play Swords hoping it will save you. The comparison to Spot Removal to Fog effects is stupid imo. They serve entirely different roles. Spot removal is simply there to efficiently deal with problems so that you can progress with your game plan.
Let’s say someone plays Drannith and you now can no longer play your commander. A fog or a teferi’s protection won’t help you. You need to get rid of the problem while also progressing your game plan. Sure you can wipe the board but that’s 5 mana. If you don’t ramp then that’s turn 5 without a commander and you spent all of your mana to reset to board state and you didn’t even progress yours so you are behind and you probably just opened up your opponents to pop off before you. Spending 1 mana to get rid of your problem, not necessarily every threat at the table, so that you can spend the rest of your mana to get your game plan online is way more valuable in terms of tempo.
About the spot-removal take:
I strongly disagree with Richard. (I still love you, but I think spot removal is needed for a healthy game)
"You loose. You hope someone else wastes their removal" (34:47)
That means, you rely on others to guarantee a healthy game, so you can continue playing. And you call that "wasting a spell"?
I dont get it.....
biases create inconsistent views/opinions. we all have them.
though Richard does seem particularly stubborn on this for some reason, I thought everyone made some good points against him.
I believe it was Richard's last point about proxies hit the nail on the head. So long as at parties involved know that proxies are going to be in the game ahead of time its perfect and there shouldn't be any disparity.
as long as theres not a power level disparity then it shouldn't matter knowing ahead of time about proxies specifically. frankly they should be normalized to the point that if we see a card thats over $30 we just assume it's very likely a proxy.
(not that $30 should be the ceiling even thats too much imo)
If the proxies are indistinguishable from regular cards, who cares? You should only have to announce if you have alters that will be harder to recognize.
Commander is a casual format, supposedly at least. I don't care if you have proxies when the entire point of the game is to have fun, not win prizes. So long as you don't try to trade or sell your proxies as the real thing, it shouldn't matter that you own them.
Talking about proxies, I actually think there is a pretty big downside to using them. When you can proxy any card, people often only pick the best most powerful cards. this leaves a lot of the more unique and cool, but less powerful, cards in this weird realm where they will never be played. I think the bigger issue here is when everyone at the table runs extremely powerful decks. Thats what really prices people out of the format. I think everyone should have a range of power in their decks so that people dont HAVE to proxy to keep up.
@WonkyWombat I can see where your coming from on this, but I personally think the way you use them is the minority instead of the majority. In my experience I've only ever seen it used to make decks more powerful and generic by including more expensive staples. I think that having budget be a concern makes decks more creative and unique, because you can't afford to run the generically good staples. Instead you have to find unique cards that are high synergy.
problem is. I dont want to play a unique craetive lovely deck. I wanna play a powerlevel apropiate deck that functions and always does what I want it to do.
If everyone is running powerful decks, who cares?
I cannot believe this "hot take" that Swords to Plowshares, the BEST removal in the game, is not good enough in this 2022 Super-fast-everything-needs-to-be-removed format that Richard is talking about. Not sure you are going to leave 3 mana up for Generous Gift the whole game to answer the Tergrids of the world.
Commanders are creatures 99% of the time... my god...
I think the issue with using Commanders as an argument in favor of creature-only single target removal, is that Commanders are the only creatures in the game (aside from Amonkhet Gods) that your opponents will have access to after you remove them. You can't effectively *remove* a Commander from the game with any spell.
If somebody is playing Tergrid against you and you remove her, you're still getting your hand ripped apart and your stuff still gets sacrificed, so the impact of removing her is almost negligible imo
@@TheSpunYarn unless of course she comes down early (fast mana and a swamp or two and see her on turn 2 or 3) and that one mana swords sends her back to the command zone and not coming around again for several turns. seems efficient to me.
@@jlbrooks74 Ya got me there! Very few cards would be able to take care of that so early.
@@TheSpunYarn this why oubliette is my favorite card. Shuts them down until they can remove the enchantment and many decks can’t.
@@starmanda88 I run Oubliette in Mono Black Control for that very reason!
On the whole: Swords is bad discussion:
Situational is true in a game, but I found that there are more than enough targets you want in exile and not the Graveyard. Protean Hulk, Academy Rector, Kikki-Jikki Mirror Breaker are some of the examples or nearly any creature combo or enabler like Prime Speaker Vannifar. Or I actually only want this creature to go, like with Opposition Agent, Dauthi Voidwalker, Notion Thief or Drannith Magistrate.
Also destroy is sometimes not enough against voltron and Exile Wraths are 6 Mana, so quite expensive compared to 1.
Swords against a commander is either a tempoplay or a bad play, but mostly bad.
agreed
When Richard leaves goldfish head in your bed you know your in trouble and it already to late
After Commander Legends 1 was released I built a commander cube initially based on the set and my personal collection. I've since taken apart every commander deck I own and purchased many new cards all to fuel the cube, and its a ton of fun. Its been especially great because of my friend group I was the only one willing to invest as much as necessary to play the format, which caused others to fall behind and stop playing. However, this cube has allowed me to invest and collect as much as I want to while creating an environment for all my friends to enjoy too.
Hot take: not every deck should be playable. If you can't make a deck good enough to be playable, either deal with having a bad deck, or make a new deck, don't complain that the format isn't good because your favorite deck is easily answerable.
I think proxies are fine, but I generally do have a few caveats.
One, you need a pretty clearly defined discussion about them, so your group doesn't just turn into cEDH (unless that's the goal ofc), and people don't get salty.
Two I would prefer people use nice proxies, you can buy them for a few dollars online, it's an aesthetic thing, I like the tables to look nice, this one is less of a requirement but if you plan to proxy something long term i don't think it's too much of an ask.
Three, if you really want to proxy something and you are either just testing it or really don't want to spend the money on a nice proxy, at least print out a copy of the card, don't write it in sharpie on a basic land or something,. This is for two reasons, magic is a complicated game and knowing the exact wordings on cards is important and I value clarity in my game. It both wastes time and is very easy to miss important things if someone has 3 different forests with black squiggles on them roughly where their creatures are and you have no idea what they are, and either have to ask or accidentally miss something important when you are making a decision in game. It takes a lot of mental energy to play a game of commander, and the games can last for a long time, especially if you are playing a deck with a ton of triggers or math, it's easy to forget what people played a turn or two ago, especially when board states get so out of hand that it's hard to tell at a glance what everything is, just makes it easier on everyone.
I'll second the draw/hand written proxies. It's fine if there's a couple that you haven't printed off properly or such but man it can suck if we have to pause a lot to check the actual card text.
I agree with having proper text for clarity
the anesthetic thing i hear so much but just don't agree with at all.
printing up a copied oracle text is definitely a minimum courtesy if you have access to a printer though not everyone does.
For the Hybrid arguement: Hybrid while per rules count as "or" and not "both" doesn't change that anything that tutors a specific color of card can tutor and grab hybrid cards. Conflux is the card that displays this function perfectly and hybrid and multicolored cards can count as any of the 1 individual colors it has as a symbol in the CMC. If they can be treated the same as tutors, then they should treated the same a multicolor cards in commander. Intended functionality of the mechanic really doesn't matter here since this isn't an official format.
And modern hybrid cards tend to be more mulitcolored than moncolored for multiple colors
not sure i agree that 1 should mean the other either way. as you said its not official so we should just choose whatever the most people want. democracy and all that.
52:50 Wise Man Crim talking about being "emotionally full", very good little soundbite.
I really wish that more commentary would be done on the difference between proxies and counterfeits. Seth touched on it (that they’re used interchangeably.)
I think a big takeaway for the "benefit an opponent too" cards like Secret Rendezvous for example, is that there's often a person that's behind in a game, whether its land drops or low hand size, handful of dead.drops etc, you're increasing their chances to play their cards.have fun too when they otherwise couldnt because of their game state.
I think it dramatically increases the fun when everyone on the table were able to play cool things.
Of course proxies are a rule zero conversation. Richard clearly explained why some people will feel bad if they find out during the match. For me I am glad to play against anyone.
My only issue with proxies is seeing a bunch of 3-4K cards in someone’s deck I mean sure workshop is legal but most people aren’t playing the real card
Honestly it is a non issue on if someone proxies the only issue is people not talking about what power level of game they want to play
If you feel bad bc you paid tons of money for a piece of cardboard, that's on you
My favorite part about Tuesdays :)
Proxying is like buying a card on Arena instead of MTGO, you get the same functionality and gameplay but no return. Buying real cards allow you to gain a return if you wish to ever sell it and if you have no intention of selling it you have gained a treasured collectors item. additionally the more people playing the game the more those real cards end up being worth so at the macro scale it is advantageous to the people buying the real cards.
I want to play with more people and I want people playing more decks, proxies enable that. It makes my gameplay experience more fun and varied which is a far better quality of life return for me then if someone stops showing up because they can't compete or are tired of playing their commander deck and are working on making a new one (which could take months). Trends also show that once a player finds a deck/archatype they love they will take the time to legitimize it.
If you ever have power level concerns make sure they are stated and understood right out of the gate. This is a universal best practice and should apply to everyone.
You hit this topic right on the head and it was really refreshing to hear discussion beyond the usual sticking points of “but then people will play all the busted cards” and “it makes the players who spent hundreds of dollars feel ripped off”. The idea that proxies are inherently not worth money is a two way street, you can’t invest in proxies and then feel the joy of selling a busted card you got out of a pack or the feeling of watching a card you got early climb ever higher in value. Because of course never forget these aren’t counterfeits we are talking about, no genuine proxy player is trying to scam or cheat by printing there own magic cards. So ya really liked what you were saying hear, your comment should be way more visible.
Completely loved this chat - Your proxy chunk was damn spicy and ties into the commander cube discussion nicely. Its damn close to touching on what I feel is the remedy to magic's bad economic formats too - CUBE is now the ONLY format - just not a commander format 🌶
Who has time to draft a cube, build decks, and play a commander game? That's the whole day.
Geniuinely, XYZ's take really made me rethink the entirety of how I build my decks with his enlightened message. On the other hand, xyz may be the stupidest ever magic player who should have his DCI number revoked for being so misinformed about how the game works.
Honestly, if my lgs would start a printing service were you could order the printing of tiny rectangle immages that are "totaly definitly not mtg cards", I would love that and buy them from them. The concept that a company can make a game based on loot boxes with game pieces that have artificially inflated values, and then also have a monopoly on that is insane.
"why do people buy foils? They like shiny, they like bling, they like flexing"
Foils probably flex too much.... Sadly.
i see what you did there..
i would watch tomer talking about and upgrading commander cube! i really like cube, it's one of the best ways to experience magic. you set the rules, you decide on the contents, wotc provides the cards.
I spoke to a member of the CAG about the hybrid mana issue, they agreed that things like manamorphose make sense for either colour, but with things like reaper king, it makes no sense, since that is definitely a 5 colour card, but it would be able to go in any deck, as its colourless and 5 colour under the other hybrid mana rule.
Good point. I was thinking about cards the new three colored legendries from New Capenna (Ognis, Evelyn, Tolus, Jinnie & Rigo) and whether or not they should be allowed in their mono colored slots.
Straw man fallacy. Oh no the mono green deck would play a 10 mana tribal centered scarecrow. Who cares if they play it.
@@gmpd4191 it isnt a straw man, since I'm not misrepresenting any argument. I'm literally reciting what I was told.
It also isn't about where the card would be played, it's about the precedent, and the line was drawn on the side of being more limiting, rather than more open. Reaper King was just an example too, what about boros reckoner, that is a card that could be played in mono red or mono white if you were allowing the other style of rules for hybrid cards, when it is explicitly a boros card.
That kind of cropped up in my mind - under this change, you could technically play Evelyn in any black deck, right? And that includes Edgar Markov, who certainly does not need the buff that she could provide. Right now there's a divide between the Mardu aggro flavor that Edgar goes for and the steal-your-stuff angle Evelyn uses, but due to current rules you can't mash the two together. And that's a good thing, in my opinion. Change it so that she can be considered mono-black... is that good for the format?
@@Slatefield100 I mean he already steals all your shit with that one vampire that taps others to steal 1 more card not going to do much eminence is just a dumb mechanic and should be banned
The swords argument gave me a headache. I'm sorry it's not a one mana board wipe that half the opponent's life and cascades but damn that's absurd.
I think Tomer nailed the StP debate. The defenses against it were admirable, though.
Creatures are still relevant enough the Swords continues to be worth it (as a one of). That said, I agree that you do need to diversify your removal options. I would play Swords but I would also run Generous Gift, Hour of Revelation, Farewell, March ooWL. Even better is removal stapled on a threat like Solitude, Angel of Serenity, and Cavalier of Dawn. If your format is so combo heavy you should lean more on countermagic, anyway.
Last Game Knight episode I really enjoyed was the Brandon Sanderson Commander Cube so I do love the idea of it. It seems like such a fun experience to at least try once.
On the topic of hybrid, I think the rules make sense, but I also think that there is room for change, I wouldn't be pissed if the change happens. But I do think that people are using bad reasoning to try to justify them wanting to change the rules. Kitchen Finks is not a mono white card, it can be cast with either white mana or green and that's a big difference. If you reveal it with Niv Mizzet Reborn, you can add it to your hand, your command tower taps for W or G if Rhys is your commander. Every rule of the game recognizes them as multicolored, the only "either/or" part in the cards is the casting requirement. Also, "hybrid doesn't work the same as in other formats" is bs, hybrid works exactly the same, the difference is the deck building restriction (i.e. the identity of the format). The only solid argument for changing the rule is simply because people want to change it (and it might be reason enough!)
The thing I always felt was the issue with hybrid mana is that it expands the cardpool too much. Lets say im runing a mardu deck, I would be able to play every red/black/white card + pretty much every hybrid except simic hybrids. I know some hybrid would have green or blue pips, but still, you are pretty much 5 colour as soon as you go 3 colour
Yea but how many hybrid cards are actually worth considering over stuff you’re already including? MAYBE you fit a few extra cards in but saying that you’re essentially 5c atp is nonsensical. There are only a handful of hybrid cards you’d want over what you’re normally running in 3c
@@ConstanceMists yeah it's not like there's an orzhov hybrid rhystic study lol... but Imma shut up before I give wizards ideas lmao
Goldfish crew, I'll be bringing my oathbreaker cube to Richmond. Same playtime as a regular commander game 1-1.5 hrs total (incl draft). Legacy power level.
Yo, 1000% this episode was great, and the hottest take is absolutely Seth in the beginning. The format isn't holy and a better world is possible. Commander is the only format where hybrid mana doesn't work as intended, and a lot of the misconception about it come from commander being the most popular format and teaching people those misconceptions. But whether it's hybrid, wishes, etc. We SHOULD be pushing to make the format better!
I'm right there with you crim boardwipes for days!!!!!! In mono white getting out avacyn and boardwiping is so much fun
"The Meatball Massacre"
New playmat drop when?
Looks like Richard is still pretty salty about his turn 1 commander with jeweled lotus getting plowed from Crim. That was a stupid take rather than a hot take.
What episode was this?
@@TheOnionKnight1 I don't remember the episode number- but I do know he was playing Lu Xun (mono U guy from P3k)
100% agree. Richard has such a bad take on targeted interaction. Instant speed removal has saved me from loads of would be losses.
@@TheOnionKnight1 the gist of it is in their clip "What Every Jeweled Lotus Player Deserves" czcams.com/video/jKb9jO6Lkbw/video.html
On the topic of Proxies I find that MOST people run proxies for a couple reasons. They're either doing what Crim stated and running multiple copies of a card they already own. Trying out a new deck and running cards you want to try out but want a placeholder. OR, proxying the super expensive cards (dual lands, moxes, etc). Where I find the argument gets salty is when you see someone running a cEDH-powered deck with proxies in a casual pod or wanting to go to a tournament setting.
About proxies: In my opinion, proxies do absolutely not devalue originals, the opposite is the case imo. Here's why.
TLDR: having an original copy of the card will always be an immense flex, regardless of proxies.
There are basically four kinds of players in a game, there are socials that are in it for the people and the interaction. There are explorers, those people love the lore and magic's characters etc. The killers are straight up in it for the challange in this player vs player game, those guys love winning. Then there's the achievers who love to flex. Those are the kinds of people that love to show of their blinged out decks or expensive cards.
Now let's say it is completely normalized to use proxies (as it should be in my opinion). People are gonna use way more original dual lands of couse, so the presence of that card - as a proxy - is gonna go up and people care more about it. If an achiever can play his original, unproxied, highely expensive Dual Lands and claim "thats an original btw" the impact of that flex will be even greater is what i'm thinking. To add to this, if you play your dual lands now in a random pug, people are gonna be "oh this person uses super expensive cards" and scream Pay 2 Win. But not if proxies are normalized.
So basically, achievers dont care about the gameplay aspect as much as they care about the flex of having an original copy.
Source: I'm a heavy achiever myself.
The argument that "artifacts do everything" doesn't work in the case of graveyard hate because the trade off for using an artifact card to go outside of your colour pie is that it will cost 2-3 more mana than normal. There is many 0 and 1 mana artifacts that affect graveyards so I agree with Seth on this that graveyard hate is universal.
Also Dockside as a hypothetical hybrid card makes zero sense. Treasure is a rainbow ability so literally the only thing tying it to red is being a goblin.
Heck, the "artifacts can do anything" argument isn't applicable imho when you have *colorless lands* that can do it. On another note, people don't respect/play Scavenger Grounds enough in EDH.
I think the reason making a card that is hybrid mana but can be played in a solo color rather than just making that color mono is that it signals that this not something to expect from this color. This is a rare exception. Once you print it in a mono-color it just automatically is now part of the pie. Once it starts appearing there it becomes harder to justify not adding more.
I've been loving these debate/discussion videos! I like podcasts, but seeing the crew's disappointed nods or laugh reactions to opinions is great.
Seth right out of the gate with "rules are just a social construct, just do what you want"
My gripe about hybrid mana symbols being used in mono colored decks is that it completely destroys color identity.
Why should I be able to play Zirda in a mono-white blink deck, but I can't use momentary blink? Momentary blink in every format other than commander is a mono-white card, the blue mana on it isn't required to cast it unless you're playing it from your graveyard.
A hybrid card IS BOTH COLORS, Zirda can be converted or destroyed with hydroblast. In order to work properly with color identity, the rules of hybrid mana would have to functionally change so that you can declare the color of the spell on the stack.
As an actual reason, I know more people who would be confused if hybrid mana didn't work the way it currently does as most people I knows mindset is "oh it has this color on it, so it can go only in decks with that color" so I don't really know why it is confusing. From a rules reason, the cards are actually both colors.
And red cards can produce white tokens
@@soren1803 Sure, but that is not a visual thing on the card when they pick it up, and learners of a game or format respond almost always first to visual things.
@@williamgressman4001 true, but we also allow “off-color” fetches in every deck
@@soren1803 Yeah, and Im not a fan of that either but recognize that there isn't a nice rule that would fix that without other problems
I've had a commander cube for years. It's awesome.
On the proxy front, I remember playing at a casual club in college and my opponent had a fully proxied modern Jund deck against my $50 budget infect deck that I owned. And I remember getting annoyed at him back then over proxying to jump straight to the highest power level deck when I was much more willing to accept I only had so much money and only play what I could afford. Now that I am better off and can afford to buy expensive decks I find myself drawn to proxy dual lands and power for a cube I want to build.
I think I feel like my competitive 60 card decks are more meaningful to me and I want the person across from me to have put the same thought and care into the deck as I have, while something I know is casual I don't care if they just did whats most powerful. Proxying just to net-deck still feels wrong, but I don't dislike the idea of proxies as much as I used to
I would rather ban all 5 Color commanders instead of allowing hybrid colors to change. People already have enough cards for good stuff decks and do not need a rule change just to allow that handful of cards.
Right? All the hybrid cards are mid af, can’t see a big number of people being like “omg thank you rules committee now I can play Balefire Liege in my monored deck”. I just don’t see why we should make the rules of the game more complicated so like 3 people can play Kitchen Finks in their white life-gain decks.
I wish more people used proxies for dual lands and expensive cards you wouldn’t even want to play with or take to the public to play so they can make their decks better , would make the game more fun . If I owned an underground sea I wouldn’t even play it lol it grade it and frame it
Hard agree. I actively encourage people to proxy reserved list cards instead of buying them if they want to use them. Nobody wants to spill a drink on their Wheel of Fortune AND nobody wants to support the reserved list for gameplay reasons!
I am of the opinion of proxying the card if already own a copy. But I am not gonna yell at someone for something like proxying reserve list cards, heck they the only card I don't follow my rule for. Because reserve list is fucking stupid.
@@singularleaf3895 i see people say they only proxy things they own a copy of already on some kind of principle but why? if you wanna own a copy cool but why does that have anything to do with you also proxying cards?
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 mainly so Wizards still gets money and knows the players still play and enjoy the game, so they don't give up on it like I have seen other companies have when games falter off. And if you own a copy and you play commander it saves either money and/or time having the same card in multiple decks. The only cards I don't mind people proxying without a care are reserved lost since it's a fucking stupid idea. Though I would still rather not play with black lotus and such since they are to high powered. But yeah that's the reason why I think you should own a legitimate copy of at least one, though I am not gonna be an asshole if you want to proxy your deck because you don't have the money to spend on stuff, I understand not everyone has disposable income like I do.
29:56
Crim adjusting his headphones to make sure he heard Richard right is never not going to split my sides.
1:21:29 "The Phil Start"...already noted Commander Clash lore, after only one and a half seasons!
i mean 21 commander damage is a fun story that tends to interest new players. elder dragon highlander the elder dragons were 7/7's so three hits by one would make someone lose as an alternate win con.
Oh no no no! That would be too "conservative"
Why so rigid? Lol
Seth makes terrible arguments. He should just go play Brawl lol
On the proxies discussion: If you show up, face off against someone, and feel angry, bad, or upset that they are using proxies, because you spent money on your cards, then you have the problem. Anyone who bases their personal status and well-being upon feeling better than others is unhealthy, and you should seek a counselor and fix that issue. Basing your value on being better off than others is not an excuse to stop other players from enjoying and playing a game with pieces of cardboard.
One thing that’s important I think in all this is wizard is against them. My shop uses commander days to help get more promos etc in from wizards if anyone ever reported to wizards that we had games with proxies for what is an official thing the store could face problems. I’m 100% ok with proxies just make sure you use them in personal spaces and not in a shop if it will negatively impact them.
People are angry that their pay-to-win blinged out deck got outplayed by the budget player. It's more about "losing to the cheap deck", proxy or not, that get the whales upset.
It’s weird… the use of proxies to me reeks of entitlement. “I should get whatever I want, because I want it”. I don’t own any of the super expensive 4 horseman cards and probably won’t ever, so I just don’t build with them in mind
@@mathewdebol923 Being able to play with the cards you want is entitlement lmfao, no game should be locked behind a pay-wall. If you really want someone’s enjoyment of a game to be tied to there budget then just download any mobile game
@@nickhannah7234 you’re not locked behind a play wall. You can still play the game just fine without The Abyss, Cradle, etc… you’re talking about optimization, so just optimize to the budget you have
Hitting Sun Titan with Swords is good, both because it'll keep getting value over time and it's pretty often a combo piece that needs to hit the grave
On Hybrid mana, I agree with Seth. There's many cards like the Retrace Hybrids that would see play in a few decks that currently aren't allowed. (Best example would be Waves of Aggression. It's good in many Boros decks, but it would also be playable in many mono-red decks and mono-white decks)
Tomer, I'm trying to build a commander cube too but I'm going to wait until commander legends 2 to release so I can put those cards into my cube. Would you be interested in making a video on your thoughts and process on making a commander cube? Would love to hear your thoughts/ideas!
I would love to see this as well
Here is my take on cheap removal.
It's tempo. Yes, there are infinite threats. But taking your opponent back a turn or two really helps you set up more. So when you can, cast an Arcane Signet then a swords. You removal your opponents engine and use that mana you were going to lose anyway. It feels good.
Targeting that one person before the table shows their play patterns seems like a bad idea. You set back a single person at the table, make yourself the new target, and potentially lose a partner in the fight against the most powerful person in the mid game. Unless the target is a Sol Ring, it’s going to seem like bad threat assessment and better targets are likely to show up anyways.
@@VexylObby It's never played out that way. Maybe my group doesn't hold grudges. But I am also thinking more turn 4/5. When you can double spell with something cheap.
@@MasterDoctorBenji At that point in the game I’d rather just have a 2 cost spell with more flexibility. I wouldn’t have felt that way a year ago, however.
@@VexylObby you can have a two mana removal that's fine. my group has a lot of 2-4 mana commanders. So on four, with a mana rock, playing my Sefris and a kill spell is sweet. Or a signet I just drew, and a small creature and a kill spell.
@@MasterDoctorBenji That early though, and at that require efficiency for a creature removal sounds more like a cEDH meta. Most people will be fine with holding 2 mana flex removal for the bigger turns.
wow! A $40 piece of cardboard that costs .02 to print! What a deal!
Playing a game of Commander with them would probably be the coolest thing that's ever happened to me LOL
100% with Tomer here. Proxys made my playgroup way more interesting from a gameplay perspective. And screw crybabies, they knew proxies existed before they bought their cards.
that why my group cuts out the middle man and plays on Untap free for everyone
Tomar seems incredibly entitled to me. This is a casual format, so why the need to make fake cards? There’s nothing on the line
@@mathewdebol923 “There’s less of an incentive to win so why are you spending less money on cards?”
Pay to win isn’t fun. Look at how popular games like League are. Vs backlash that pay to win games get.
How do you stay friends with someone if all you want to do is stunt on them because they are poorer than you?
@@mathewdebol923 This is a casual format, so why not make fake cards? this goes both ways mate
Counterpoint to the hybrid mana hot take: if a hybrid symbol should be counted as either/or one of the two colors when determining the color identity in the 99, then the same should be true for commanders.
So for example if you're trying to make a Oona Deck you can make it mono blue or mono black, but not Dimir. Is that cool?
Nah, I don’t really think so, your Commander’s Color identity is for determining what can go in your deck, while cards in the 99 use their identity to determine if THEY can go in your deck, so if you’re using Oona your colour identity is
“You may include any blue or black color identity cards in your deck.”
Whereas hybrid cards in the 99 are “This card’s Color identity is blue or black”
They’re both “or”, but Commander CI is inclusive.
Or, to make it even simpler, you could just word the whole thing as “You MAY treat this card as blue or black for the purposes of Color identity”. Just making it a may allows you to choose “blue and black” for your commander but “Blue or black” for cards in the 99.
@@Qazplm601MC The whole point is to change how CI is computed for hybrid cards, so they're not both colors simultaneously, but only either one of them, and they can fit in monocolored decks. For example, Oona's CI would be either blue or black but not both at the same time.
An important observation is that color identity is the same whether the card is a commander or not, so Oona's CI could not be considered both colors even in the command zone: you would still have to choose either blue or black and build a monocolored deck accordingly.
This said, of course my comment was a provocation, you can change the rules in any way that better suits your ideas for the game. You could decide that CI has to be computed in a different way for commanders. Heck you can even decide that every single hybrid mana symbol can be considered separately as either one of the colors, so the first symbol in oona's mc is black and the others are blue when using it as a commander (so it's dimir), but they are all blue or black if you want to put her in the 99 of a monocolored deck. (Weirdly enough you couldn't do this for
Rosheen Meanderer because she has only one hybrid mana symbol, so it could not be both red and green even in this scenario).
But yeah, if you want to keep it simple, you kinda have to do as I described.
I have never won when I got a Turn 1 Sol Ring (let alone Sol Ring into a Signet). I always become the Archenemy and am put into a 3 on 1 scenario. In my playgroup, this is very much how it always goes. Even at local stores, pretty much always true. The only time I see it win games is when you go to conventions and people are playing their "Definitely a 7" but is secretly a CEDH deck. Pop off on turn 1 and run away with the game by turn 2 or 3.
Proxies tend to let people experiment and later buy their cards. However, this experimentation is usually either laughably bad or heavy power creep. Especially at tables where multiple people start proxying.
The solution is to assume either
1. These are all non-games.
2. Bring your highpower/cedh deck againsg it.
3. Balance your decks based on total cost.
Sub $100 decks, below $250 and below $400 and then above $400. This would reduce how much spike especially from price the deck would be. If your decks are within a similar price, its not the money/proxies, its the deck building/skills.
single creature removal is good, if you’re not finding it effective you’re just not drawing enough cards.
Facts. Im always packin swords in every white deck. Never leave home without it
Inserting my random 2 cents.
Hybrid Mana
9:09 Right here pretty much the reason the hybrid mana rule exists. Sure it’d be nice to have graveyard hate and tutor hate in Momo blue or etc. cases but the card is definitely a Blue/Black flavored card. Like why play the artifact graveyard hate that’s less good when you could play Ashiok. Also it’s more of a future proofing rule I think and creativity isn’t limited that much by keeping people from hybrid mana cards.
Boardwipes in agro decks
Agreed always pack some board wipes. Like maybe minimum 3-4 for me anyways. In almost any deck I can make besides maybe some meme decks.
Too much spot creature removal
Heck no, there are way too many kill on sight creatures/commanders now a days and need to be stopped immediately at instant speed. Like swapping my 1-3 mana instant speed removal to wait for a board wipe instead is just bad. I’d say killing someone’s commander also has just become a method of slowing down people by a turn or two.
Proxies
Nothing wrong with them I think. Just don’t go crazy like if the group is casual don’t just go nuts with mana crypt, CEDH staples, etc in all your decks. Especially since prices have gone crazy and there are so many cards releasing that are just auto upgrades in decks. End of the day just talk with the group. Like I think part of the fun is getting those niche cheap cards and getting some fun with them over the crazy cards.
I guess for the longest time I hated really lazy proxies like just a basic land with the card it’s supposed to be written on it.
On another note I feel like they were on this topic too long.
Sol Ring banned
If so you gotta ban the other fast rocks too then you probably wind up with green having an advantage with their 1 mana dorks, land enchants, or other stuff. Like if you want to ban Sol ring for fast mana you gotta take an axe to ALL the fast mana.
Light Stax
I don’t think there is anything really wrong with stax at all, just maybe be ready for the board to dislike you and don’t let that be your only deck since people will not want to play after awhile.
Giving opponents stuff = Good
Fun for casual and really until you get to the higher levels of power you don’t need to worry about it.
Commander cube
Yes it’s fun. Just hard to set up I think.
For me light stacks would be cards like manabarbs, liesa shroud of dusk.
so whenever x hapens you punish them but they still able to do theyr stuff.
i would even count Authority of the Consuls, all the Wardens, Fangren Marauder, Battle Mammoth, Fey Steed, Arasta of the Endless Web as light stacks. they may not punish but progress yourself or at least keep you alive.
Those dont host gameplans completely but they will go down or help you go up.
"some people like building decks and not even playing them"
😂 yeah thats me right there, mostly just playing to check if the decks even work