Condensation and insulation in an iso shipping container home, Ep. 3
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2021
- What are the factors that cause condensation in metal shipping container homes? What are solutions to solve condensation? What is the physics and heat transfer involved?
I finally found the GPS foam at a foam manufacturer. They got the beads, made the foam, and cut it to my 1" and 2" thickness for less than buying panels. I used DeRouchey Foam in the Burbank area of So Cal. www.derofoam.com They were so helpful and great to work with.
The foil-backed foam came from a different vendor, who I would not recommend. Insulation-4-less is more like insults-4-less, as the owner has lots of negative reviews and deserves them. I don't believe their quoted R-values, but the data sheet allowed by Title 24 engineer to design something that worked. I think that the other products that are available through other companies, even Amazon, are the same product but without the inflated data sheet.
Just found this video, and your channel! Well done! I think you’re the first CZcamsr I’ve found who’s actually discussed the specific condensation questions that I’ve had, AND discussed them in relative terms across various climate zones. I’m in western Montana, so somebody building a container in Florida, with their temps and humidity in mind, had almost zero bearing on what would work where I am…. And in fact, one could get onesself in a world of hurt if that research wasn’t done..
I’m looking forward yo watching your other videos. Keep them coming!
dude!!! i'm cracking up here!! when he said "it gets reflected BACK INTO SPACE" !!! if you have not noticed by now......He's a ROCKET SCIENCEST !! I love it! great video and thanks for the science lesson for sure.
tHanks for the video . The mention of foil faced foam board losing R value or not being effective in cold climates is interesting.
Fantastic video. Thank you.
Thank you for the info great great job.
Excellent! Thank you. . .
Also, pleased to find you’re also teacher. My ex is a teacher in your general area (she’s in Venice Beach), and I’m an elementary/middle school teacher in western Montana. I’m going to be moving to a rural, 4-room school this coming year, and I’ve been thinking for ages about doing something very similar to what you’re doing; initially as a primary residence, but then potentially as an Airbnb/Vrbo, and perhaps someday as a low-income housing option in my area.
I was an aerospace engineer for 14 years, managed my own construction company for 14 years, and now teaching engineering for the last 4 years. This project combines everything.
@@MrAlpin that’s the beauty of teaching. Almost all subject areas CAN incorporate prior knowledge from other lives/careers. It’s really the whole premise behind liberal arts: the entire breadth of one’s knowledge/education informs what you bring to your career and the rest of your life.
I'm thinking about a product to coat the metal just to start off like Bed liners spray for your pickup truck, or white stay cool reflective paint for painting roofs then put all the rest of the installations on. What do y'all think? I'm living around Houston TX by the way Thanks.
Any insulating coating will help. The foamier, the better. The difference between white and black will be less significant if it is not a surface that is exposed to the sun. White will reduce the emissivity and absorptivity but I would go with the thicker coat. You might be able to add the microsphere paint additive to one of those coatings to get additional benefit
Good evening, I'm curious about using tyvek home wrap on the exterior of my shipping container workshop. Would it be best used on the metal skin of the container then insulating and siding or on top of the insulation below the siding?
You want to use the moisture barrier on the warm and humid side to keep the moisture from getting to the metal. I used Tyvek on the exterior of the exterior insulation under the metal siding and foil back foam on the interior.
Even though I would loose interior space, could I build a wood frame with insulated walls, ceiling, floor that had a gap and never touched the metal anywhere in container, except the floor a little, so that it would vent around all 6 sides and metal could remain at nearly the same temp on both sides? Another way to explain might be, a box inside a box with 2 inch ventilation on all 6 sides of interior box. Is that an option worth considering? I am thinking, even if there is still condensation it would be on the outside of the interior house and possibly have drain holes, slanted interior roof etc. Thanks for any input.
Interesting challenge. There are some factors that are important to consider. What side of the wall has the warm and moist air? The fact that both sides of the metal are the same temperature doesn't matter as much as which side brings the moisture. If you are in a cold environment, the humidity will be in the inside and condense on the cold metal. I have seen it collect and drip off the roof corrugations. The trick is to keep the humidity away from the metal. The ventilation will help but include moisture barriers. If you have a vapor-proof bag inside a box within the metal box, you should stay dry. If you are in a warm and moist environment and air condition the interior, then your condensation will be in the exterior of the metal.
@@MrAlpin is there "another way" ?
Such as using "Cork" - would it bond to shipping container walls or would the natural resin eat the paint? Maybe uncoated Corten steel and then manufactured Cork to fit the contours?
Then spray foam could be used on the OUTSIDE of the shipping container where it can off gas safely for ever if it needs to, then clad with anything...OR have another layer of metal container sheets and FILL the gap between them squeezing out ALL gaps...
One the inside after Cork is layered appropriately, then a manufactured/milled flat sided log as interior wall, which provides good thermal mass and Additional R value and nice durable interior...
?
Would that be sufficient to prevent moisture build up/condensation or would an air gap be needed between Cork and milled log and then create some sort of negative pressure venting fan or airflow? Or a dehumidifier?
@@MrAlpinor is it possible to create a thicker milled log wall that it multidirectional layered in the "shape" of a container with a steel I-beam frame so that it can be moved "as a shipping container, but avoids nearly ALL issues of the metal trapping moisture because there is almost none to begin with...like 9 or 12 inch log walls?
If not using the foil barrier that you described, would you install a tyvek vapor barrier? If so, does it also go on inside sandwiched between inner metal shell and the GPS?
Tyvek is actually not the best vapor barrier. It has a high perm rating of 56, so is is good to shed most water, but allow it to dry out. If you want to seal out humid interior air, you need a much better barrier.
@@MrAlpin Thanks. How are you sourcing the GPS insulation panels? I've looked all over and cannot find them (central california). Am I correct that you are using the foil-backed foam against the inside metal (with foil against the metal) and then the GPS is added? So: container | foil-backed ridged foam board | GPS? Any thoughts on using double bubble foil in place of the foil-backed ridged foam (assuming I understand your plan)? Sorry for all the questions, but I believe that of all the sources I've looked into, you have the most thoughtful and data-based plan.
@@rustart I just put the vendors in the pinned comment.
What insulation type and setup would you choose if the exterior was kept as the container metal and water tight in a cold climate all year round? Thanks for explaining all of this.
If you want to have the metal container exposed to the cold exterior, then you need to do all your insulation and vapor barrier on the interior, at least R-17 with not thermal bridging. Remember that all the metal will be the temperature of the exterior and will suck the heat out. This was going to mean that I would loose about 3.5" per side or 7" overall width on the space so I moved 4" of that outside.
@@MrAlpin Thank you. I'm nervous about using spray foam but I keep hearing how it out performs insulation wise. I see van builds using hemlock wool so I'm looking at that as well, the less toxic the better in my opinion. I will check out the rest of your channel you may have already answered other questions I had.
@@timtim-ef7xu It seems like spray foam is the best, but it was much more money and we could not install it as we were ready. It has to happen all in one day.
Completely off topic - well almost, and perhaps the subject for another video dealing with condensation... what are your thoughts on building a home with refrigerated or insulated (Reefer) shipping containers. I have been thinking of using reefers and removing the paint finish on the exterior to expose the matt finished stainless steel cladding. I also thought it would be novel to give the same treatment to the bathrooms and parts of the kitchen. The foam insulation is estimated to have an insulation value of R45 to the walls and more for the floor and roof.
Interesting thought. The spec of a refrigerated unit is 8' exterior width, 7'6" interior. That is 3" of wall thickness per side. R45 would mean they are achieving R15/inch. The highest rated closed cell spray foam is R7. I am guessing that the container is more like R21, at best, assuming no thermal bridging due to ribs.
@@MrAlpin Thank you for this information, it is helpful. FYI the vertical metal supports in the walls are staggered in an exterior and interior layout and are approx. 30mm deep, each side supports a skin, so no thermal bridge is created.
Very interested your video, I'm planning do 3 40Ft containers B&B in my property in Costa Rica close to the beach. Do you have some video or tips what tipe insulation I can use there?
Thank you
Mostly a warm and humid climate. Will you have A/C? You need to keep the moisture away from the exterior, but polystyrene would probably work with a moisture barrier.
@Mr. Alpin yes I will need AC, the area is usually 38c to 44c
@@anthonydustinchancalvo6841 then your interior will be cooler than exterior and will cool the metal from the inside. Moisture barrier on the exterior is critical
Forest Grove, OR. Well have rain, some snow, hot summer and wet spring. How to figure that out for insulation?
You need to prevent the warm humid air from contacting both sides. Again, insulating and wrapping both sides will be critical to keeping the metal from getting cold and warm air from contacting it.
You will have to moisture barrier both sides, I would expect. Also, you need to keep the metal from getting cold from either side. I would expect you need a similar solution to mine, insulated on both sides with moisture barrier on both sides.
Thinking of putting an insulation layer against the inside metal. Then a vapour barrier. Then plaster board. Will this work?
That should work as well. It comes down to the details of installation. How do you seal the joints and making sure you lap the joints to direct condensation. You are keeping the warm, moist air away from the insulation and then get to the metal. Are you in a cold, warm, humid, dry environment?
@Mr. Alpin im thinking sealant all round the plasterboard joints. As well as round the vents to prevent any chance of moist air making contact with metal. I understand air can penetrate the plasterboard that's why the vapor barrier is needed behind it. Is a varied climate, cold damp in winter, hot humid summer. Have only noticed condensation in winter. May run a small dehumidifier during winter too
Yes, drywall is highly absorptive and permeable. Unpainted is 20-90 perms and painted is still 10-40 perms. The cold damp winter means that you will heat it so it will condense on the inside, hot humid summers mean you will have AC and might get condensation on the outside. I would definitely treat on the interior and tyvek the exterior to provide some protection there.
Watched this one again today. So, just to clarify, on the exterior: siding/cladding, tyvek/similar, insulation, container steel. Inside: container steel, tyvek?/similar?, insulation, drywall/etc….. Are those the correct sequences? Or have I got a couple reversed?
Yes on the exterior. The inside is container, 1/4" foil backed foam as a vapor barrier, 1" GPS, then paneling.
@@MrAlpin have you ever thought about the concrete siding panels, and rock wool insulation on the exterior, for additional fire resistance, and if so, what did you conclude?
@@jasonmitchell432 I am using the Hardipanel 4x8 sheets on the two ends of the cabin, metal siding in the long sides. I will have other videos as soon as I get more time to edit and release.
@@MrAlpin Awesome! I’ll look forward to them!
Question on the exterior: Would it be beneficial to put double side foil foam to give a monolithic wrapped barrier to the whole metal, especially when framing out the openings so no wood is touching the metal (as a traditional stick build). My thoughts is giving extra protection to the metal against the cold.
Interior keep as you described. Thank you
What about using sheep's wool in Florida?
The main thing is to make sure you use the proper moisture barrier on the right side of the wall
Have you seen a container insulated only outside in cold weather?
I have not. I am seeing that the metal gets cold on the interior. There are enough exposed edges and undercarriage that the metal is pulling the heat out. I am thinking to add more insulation to my exposed metal walls on the interior for this reason.
Number one: Buy a refrigerator container in the first place. It will have a good starting layer between the skins which you can add to.
Yes your right that would be excellent wow but how much are they?
@@sntruck not that much more as you don't need the unit. Sometimes no more.
Reefers have low ceilings
@@marcoloretto1185 Not the ones in use in the Pacfic Northwest. We hauled thousands of them over the years. In fact I have never seen any that weren't standard height and lengths.
What extra expense doing all of those layers??? Makes no sense, looks like spray foam is more cost effective.
Have you priced out having spray foam installed, especially with multiple spray days? With spray foam you need studs to set the depth so you need to add framing too and have thermal bridging penalty. You need to get to about R-22-25 on the walls. GPS foam is sold by the inch, so it doesn't matter how many layers you have.
Have you taken a look at the supply chain in this country? Even before COVID it was atrocious. Normal building materials that have been on the market for decades are often extremely difficult to acquire in any kind of a timely fashion especially for a reasonable price. So, you are saying go down to your local supplier and pick up this exotic paint and insulation board in super small quantities (a one project container home hardly qualifies for bulk discounts!)? Well, all I can say is good luck. Hope you live a long life because you are going to be waiting a long time even if you can special order it if you are anywhere in 80% of this country!!! Not even looking at how durable and long lived these products are but if you recommend Hardi Plank for any use you are sadly lacking in the necessary skill of critical judgement of modern building supplies. I would, therefore, have to question your assessment of any building product.
talk,talk, talk , nothing got' don
All good reasons to let go of the idea of using a big, metal can as a home. Paint additive, huh? What a joke.
Hi Alpin, I agree whit you when you said, we have tu put the dew point the most outside of the container stucture that we can.
I'm architect in Chile an right now I'm desiging my house to a warmest area at south america. At my country we have te same zonification map to module the diferent existing climates us your country and I'm studing the insolation for a number 5 zone area, whit to much rain and humidity.
We decide to get the metal structure container not recover by the inside, just only by a good paint whit the idea to put all our efforts at the outside isulation using injected polyurethane foam whit a Tyvek membrane for the humidity control and for the humidity control we must have to use a AC's evaporator.
In addition for the outside we are studing an air camera betwen the humidity membane and the rain cover or siding.
I put some links of interesting papers of this matters.
buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi078-ship-shape#P04
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/core.ac.uk/download/pdf/296919169.pdf
icontainerhome.com/preventing-stopping-condensation-in-shipping-container-home/
And this complementary video czcams.com/video/kjbgduaH_7U/video.html
I'm be waiting for your insulation paiting studies.
Thank for your clear concepts in your videos.