the crazy thing is, I played deathwing-heavy lists for most of 9e (even before the "Armor of Contempt" rules update a year or so before 10th), and literally nobody was complaining about how strong those terminators were until they won an event or two... even though they'd had that ability for 90% of the edition lol
@zugzugzugzug that's cause the next books didn't care about their inner circle ability and by the time an army came out that did they had been power crept out.
The most inexcusable thing to me is that they didn’t change our army rule. This dumbass battleshock focused rule that has literally always been bad, and always been mocked as bad. GW just went “it’s good, keep it”
Just a brutal codex at a time where interest in Dark Angels is probably its peak post Ark of Omens and all the new lore justification to bring in their beautiful HH era kits into play aesthetically. We lost a massive amount of flavor and flexibility for our unique units in return for great looking bladeguard proxies and a nice looking Asmodai/Chaplain model. Awful detachments, no mixed weapon terminators anymore (a staple since 2nd edition) and lost our unique LTs. Writing on the wall regarding our unique Ravenwing (outriders are awful for what bikes used to provide), plus the funny damage nerf to LS's Plasma Battery. Its even worse with Azrael/Land Speeder Dark Shroud puffing up sub 30% win rates, we might actually get buffs if it wasn't for that Iron Storm list. Then again Dark Angels are never really good competitively outside that weird 6 months end of 9th edition. But back then we still had absolute flavor and model swag.
Sad thing is, Space Wolves still have mixed-weapon termies - but never play them because they have better unique stuff. The termies we can only dream of, are the termies that they don't even bother taking off the shelf..
@@oldmangames9292 Take away Thunderwolf Cav and Puppies drop off the cliff... As someone who runs a lore-accurate Firehowlers Great Company and thus doesn't use any, it's hilarious just how hard a carry those TWC are I know Firehowlers are a really weak way to play Marines in general right now, (lots of Skyclaws, Swiftclaws + Speeders, a couple Grey Hunter units + Longfangs), but holy gak, at least in 9th they could do some stuff. 10th just murdered my poor pups.
It kind of scares me when I hear someone say Azrael is undercosted. It's TRUE, but if Games Workshop actually fix Azrael, then the Dark Angels will have literally nothing left.
They totally ruined the Dark Angels this time, in comparison to other codices that came out! Most datasheets are weak and/ore too expensive in points. Deathwing Knights got beautiful new models and building options, but are much too expensive for what they do, as they are very tough, but cannot do much damage... Azrael and Darkshroud are stand-out units, the rest is ok at best...
Eh Custodes and Admech are horrible, too. It's pretty sad when loyalist marines got of *easy* with only a slew of unnecessary rules nerfs and massive pruning and still piss poor internal balance. Absolutely no excuse for what they did to DWK.
50$ that in this dataslate admech will have a huge update that won't change even a 5th of what people are hopeing online, and DA will have to wait for 11th because of codex space marines units and detachments...
Yup, big reason I put a pause on building DA, and started to focus on Sisters. Funny enough I had them on pause cause I was confident their codex was going to be bad. Sad thing is. This is likely how DA are going to be for the next 3+ years.
This is why you *NEVER* want to be among the first 4-5 codices of a new edition... Remember CSM's in 6th being the first book? And again in 8th? And DG also being like the 3rd or 4th codex in 8th? Or Necrons in 9th? And going way back in time, how hilariously under powered Marines, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels & CSM's were at the beginning of 3rd edition? It's almost like having your codex written while the new edition is still being developed and/or barely a month old is a death sentence for any faction...
There is nothing in this codex that makes people want to play dark angels. They couldnt even make the unique characters interesting. Not even a primarch lol
I've played a *lot* of games with inner circle companions recently, they're great as an "emotional rollercoaster" unit. Almost always, they end up doing the opposite of what my opponent expects lol. World Eaters slamming into me and all that's left to stop them is 6 companions? Surprise, their counterpunch ends up killing a lord of skulls, angron, and a bunch of berserkers Random unit shoots/fights them with a bunch of ap0 or ap1 shots/swings? Surprise, 3 of them die immediately I love the unit's look and the idea of them being a small elite group of bodyguards that are surprisingly punchy sounds super cool, problem is their datasheet feels too half-baked to be useful as anything other than a bodyguard for Azrael. They're cheap enough that I don't feel bad using 3-6 of them as Azzy's bubble wrap (tbh I might go as far as to say they're the best bodyguard unit for him), but I wouldn't want to ever run multiple units of them, or run them with other characters edit after watching the vid: personally I'd much *muuuuuuuuuch* rather use 3-6 ICC's in a list than the Lion right now. Sure he can be scary, but he's far from being a scary enough melee threat on his own for me to want to bring. He doesn't have a way to effectively deal with anything with an invulnerable save, his strike isn't quite high-enough strength to be appealing vs high-toughness vehicles (where ap4 is useful), his sweep being 1 damage instead of 2 makes it only ever worth using if he's fighting 1w chaff, and his primarch auras range from niche at best to anti-synergistic at worst (I'd much rather have pretty much anything than +1 to hit in melee lol, most of the melee stuff you'd be sending in alongside him already hits on 2's lol). 300points is also expensive enough that it's not easy to just "slot" him into a partial list in the same way that you can with ICC's, 90 per 3 is pricy but manageable in most cases you *can* build around him, but I unfortunately haven't had much fun (or success) doing so. it's also tough whenever you remember that Abaddon does so much more, while getting to lead a unit, while also being 5 points cheaper
I like how in comparison to Space wolves (who use their detachment and unique units) Dark Angels players, including me, only use Azrael and the Dark shroud
To be fair. . .you do see more SWs running Stormlance than anything, and we have had a couple (at least one IIRC) to win events running the Unforgiven Task Force. There are a ridiculous number of chapters functioning as Iron Hand Successors though. . .
Not sure if i heard that right but just in case asmodi is not the chief chaplain and trust me if you havent heard the dialog between him and the cheif chaplain go look it up asmodi needs a tub of aloe vera after every conversation it is hilarious
Asmodai is the Chief Interrogator Chaplain mate, has been for a long time, if not always. I’ve never seen a Dark Angels story where he isn’t already chief chaplain.
@darthrevan4485 the head chaplain is a guy named Sapphon. Or it was. Not sure about 10th but he has been in previous editions. He's very level headed and thus kinda boring compared to the lunacy of Asmodai.
@@darthrevan4485he’s the chief *interrogator chaplain* The Dark Angels have 2 types of chaplains. Sapphon is their Master of Sanctity (basic chaplains). Been that way for multiple editions
@@rainman1637 you sir have not read him absolutely shredding asmodai a new one when he found him trying to execute guardsmen for disobedience and disloyalty when he himself was disobeying orders
Howdy! When you talk through the Ravenwing command squad at 19:30 you note that for the command and 6 black knights it’s 410pts. I believe that should be 310 for the full 9 bike squad. I have a strike force company of hunters list with 48 bikes that I built because I’ve always loved the all biker idea. Not an easy army to be competitive with, but it’s a blast and really fast! Haha
putting DWK and Lion at T2 is honestly wild. I'd expect anything T2 to be usable competitively....neither of which are. DWK need to be 200 to be close to usable given how bad the DA detachments are, and Lion needs rules changes - why they nerfed him when he was already not good I'll never know.... why is he worse than Abaddon?
Dwk are better assault terminators. They out damage into nearly every conceivable target even when they get the worst wargear into that target. That's also ignoring that dwk actually have a pretty good ability.
on paper I'd be totally with you, the changes from index to codex for DWK's make it seem like they're completely gutted and horrible to use now. the worse weapon profiles and max unit size dropping to 5 certainly feels bad. however, in practice I've actually had a fair bit of success with them, mostly because my opponent ignores them (something to the effect of "focusing fire on 4w -1damage terminators sounds miserable") and I can take them up the board and harass stuff with them. It'll take them awhile to kill vehicles or monsters, but they can keep stuff tied down *really* effectively. they're not a "build my whole list around" kind of unit like they used to be (cough cough 10 infiltrating DWK's in vanguard), but they're surprisingly useful at "sneakily" winning the game while your opponent prioritizes killing your land raiders or hellblasters (or whatever other big punchy units you have) first terminator captain is a great leader for them; reroll charge rolls is fantastic and the free battle tactic can be flexed either offensively or defensively depending on matchup, turn order, etc
quick correction: DW Terminators only ignore modifiers to hit, not anything else. If they ignored all modifiers they'd actually be worth the points (maybe too much so)
Absolutely gutted the army for the crime of not being Ultramarines. I hope the other non-codex compliant chapters aren't hit as hard but I won't be surprised.
That would track if the ultramarines were good. None of their characters are better than Azrael. Other than the centurion cheese, they had pretty much. Sure, Calgar is good, but not Azrael good.
@@yhormthemidget Azrael should probably get a points increase but having 1 good character doesn't justify nerfs to anything and everything that isn't aloud in a UM list
@@TacticaIHobo sure, but that is a codex issue not a unit one. If the DA detachments could meaningfully interact with DA units or keywords they could be great. I think it is not favoritism towards any other space marine factions, they just straight up royally fcked up half of the 10th codexes. SM included. Pretty much the only decent codexes were necrons, orks and CSM. SM, Nid, AdMech, Custodes and DA were rather abysmal ( I have zero info about the Tau codex, I dont know anyone who actually plays Tau) At most one usable detachment per codex if even that.
A friend from my local store had once making fun on Marine : "You guys don't have divided chapters, all of you are just Iron Hand, son😏" When I look at the Tier 1 list, I feel really sad on this🤦🏻♂️🥲
I started 40K with dark angels a few months ago and I’ve seen decent casual success with a gladius list using azrael, DW knights, and DW terminators. That said it really does not feel like I’m playing dark angels - azrael just parks in the backline with my hellblasters and feeds me Command Points while I keep my deathwing in reserves to deepstrike. I did win a game the other day where I brought the lion and belial just to try them out. It was definitely fun to put them on the board but Belial was basically useless and the lion really only acted as a deterrent. The only reason I won was because I baited my opponent into overcommitting towards azrael which gave me a deep strike window for his home objective. It almost feels like GW is leaning into their status as the “original” space marine chapter: they’re like normal space marines but a little bit better - one unit gets sustained hits 1! 🙃
THANK YOU AUSPEX!!! Just the other day I was laying down for bed saying my nightly prayer to Auspex that a DA tier list would come out soon and for his strategic wisdom in all things. I knew you were listening. And they all called me crazy! Ha!
My personal favorite Azrael combo, is 10 hellblasters, Azrael, and an Apothecary, starting in a repulsor. Very expensive but creates a huge midboard problem
I run Asmodai with 10x Assault Intercessors in a repulsor. When they jump out and charge a unit on an objective and get to reroll hits AND wounds they feel really good. It's like getting a second OOM.
My go to; Azrael and Lieutenant Zakariah with 10 Hellblasters (stupidly OP), Termie Chaplain on 5 DW Knights, Belial with 10 DW Terminators, Apocathary Biologis with 5 Heavy Intercessors, 6 plasma Inceptors, 1 Redemptor, 1 Repulsor Executioner. Job done.
Dark Angels getting shit on by GW is almost as consistent as CSM's getting dumpster'ed by GW... Having been around since the beginning of 3rd edition, Dark Angels have almost *always* been the "have-not" among loyalist Marines; - your 3rd edition codex was so laughably unplayable, GW had to overhaul it in a Chapter Approved article just to make them remotely playable - you got "Jervis'ed" in 4th ed alongside CSM's and Eldar... but at least CSM's had double Lash Princes + Nurgle Bikers while Eldar could abused 4th's core rules with their unkillable Fire Prism's + Flying Circus builds Poor Dark Angels were just left to sit in the corner and cry into their bath robes. - Oopsie! 5th ed called, it forgot you even existed, just like the poor CSM's! - 6th was again GW going, "how can make Dark Angels suck again?" - 7th ed GW decided to let you all out of the dog house and have about 8-12 months of fun with the 'Dark Green' version of the Gladius formation CSM's finally became semi-relevant again for all of 5 months before GW nuked the Traitor Legions supplement - 8th was again mostly a miss. - 9th had amazing character for the army, but then got hated on because god forbid Dark Angel players of all people be allowed to have any nice toys again 😛 Seriously, Dark Angels have almost always been that loyalist army you play and collect only because you love their lore & background, because GW letting you be remotely competitive is purely by complete accident!
I still think an important aspect of evaluating a unit is evaluating who can effectively lead them. Bladeguards may be better than Inner Circle Companions on paper, but ICC can take more gains from Azrael than Bladeguards do. ICC have more OC, more strength, more flexible melee options, and when led by Azrael are harder to kill than bladeguards with their -1 to hit. Add a Lieutenant in as well and give them lethal hits + fallback shoot/charge to keep them incredibly mobile.
ICC have lethal hits already for their profile. Their issue is simply that the bladeguard can do plenty without a character whereas the ICC need one to function (which I know is the point, but it makes their 90 point cost feel bad) Why attach a lieutenant or Azrael to the ICC when you can attach them to the hellblasters and take Bladeguard? Or save the points on a lieutenant and instead take some enhancements or shuffle points for a more useful squad. ICC need to be a block of 5 like the BT sword bretheren and their -1 to hit rule should be always active regardless of if they have a character attached to them. It'll give them a stand out difference from the BGV
@@ViciousSkittle I think that his point was simply some characters add enough to a squad to change how they maybe ranked by a good margin. I agree that the Lt doesn't bring much to the table, but Azrael with ICC is actually pretty solid. The two compliment each other nicely, and in a similar manner like the case of Azrael when he could lead Company Heroes. Nothing feels wasted and ICC feel more like a complete unit. With Azrael, ICC can focus on the strike attacks, everything is minus one to hit alongside the 4++, they can hit characters on twos, and they have OC2. That's a fair bit of utility. I don't know what GW's plan is for Space Marines in general, but from a competitive side, if ICC was given a 5++, then they would feel far more competitive when compared to BGV. It would be nice to have more squads with a "5" option, but GW seems to be ignoring the transport problem. . .
Inner circle companions are OC2, which isn't nothing. I find Ezekiel very strong, and extra attack each and a chance of character assassination comes in very handy.
I think the units are rated correctly . Although I'm still not a fan of Jonson at 300 points . What the Inner Circle Companions need are more character models to be Deathwing like all generic captains and such . That would make the ICC already a lot more interresting . Other buffs should include the mixing of Assault weapons with normal terminator weapons for the Deathwing Terminators . And the return of course of the Deathwing Strikemaster . Not sure what could be done for the CoH since to improve on that they would have to change the Outriders to be more effective . IN other words , GW has to re-write some datasheets and rules before much of the DA becomes competitively playable and interresting .
Talking about win rates ... Azrael with a SM List, running a SM detachments .... This tierlist is not to be used in comparison to other tierlists. This tierlist is ok to show the relativ strenght of the DA units in comparison with themselves for playing fun games with friends. The real tierlist for competitiv games not using DA detachments: T1: Azreal T2: Dark Shroud T3: those things listetd in T2. T4 all the things listed in T3 ... T5: the things listed in T4. Using DA detachments ... all units besides Azrael und darkshroud go down, as the detachments are so underwhelming, that they are not played in competitiv games. Besides that, I like the old DA inner circle detachment best, feels well for DA, i like the battle shock theme, because it gives DA something special (I know, not too useful :-)) ... but even that bad detachment was made worse with changing the former best strat.... And it makes me sad to see, that other codici bloom with good ideas, good flavour and competitiv and unique ideas...
Feels like they're reeling in the power levels so when the next edition comes round they can buff the heck out of everything and send those sweet prices even higher.
It's been heartbreaking trying to play them over the last few months. The codex supplement just doesn't have any teeth. I personally don't care how cheap the Lion is; I'd much prefer him to be expensive with some truly scary stats and rules. On the rare occasion I see him these days, it doesn't take long before he gets focus-fired down. Otherwise, he's so shot up by the time he gets to the monster/character he's hunting that he gets one-shotted in the most anticlimactic way. The Firstborn Son of the Emperor, beloved by all and the Monster Hunter of Caliban sure gets his ass kicked by his prey a lot these days and it's always painful to watch. The ICC literally have Iron Halos mounted over their backpack censers. For the love of God, give them the rule already and some AP on those swords; they shouldn't have to rely on working solely with Azrael to have any survivability. Belial and the DW terminators are underwhelming, especially the knights. I love their durability but they need better weapons. I guess that's my issue with 10th - I hate how WEAK everything feels compared to what I'm fighting against. Azrael if the only unit that makes me feel proud of playing my army (fortunately, I don't mind Greenwing and I like lots of tanks and stuff. But still, the DA specific units have proven to be terrible.) I actually wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed Azrael in the days ahead and I honestly wouldn't even feel bad at this point; the poor guy's back must be sore from carrying the whole army all throughout the edition. One the positive side, I love the miniatures and they look amazing on my display shelf ! Oh well, the truth is, DAs have rarely been great or even good on the table. I had hoped bringing back the Lion would reinvigorate the faction but it sure doesn't seem that way. All I can hope for now is better luck in 11th.
It funny that sister got such a boost that soon they will get nerf. Yet space marine are all over the place and lots of them are stuggle from unit cost, unit rules etc
ravenwing black knight squad x 6 (180) and ravenwing command squad x 3 (130) is 310 pts not 410 the comman squad are also black knights for 9 black knights... am i missing something
I'm just getting back into warhammer after many many years - I still have my dark angels army, and am trying to see what lists / builds people are running to get an idea of what to put together. I heard that ironstorm got a nerf, and in one video I heard people are still running that, but also that most people are now running 3 x 5 DW knights, some inner circle companions, land raider / impulsor etc. Could someone please share a resource that lets me see what people are currently running (as youtube search results brings up old videos when I type in current) thank you so much!
With the new point changes whats a decent list for a 1000 pt general space marine army? Iv got everything from the leviathan box set i just purchased. Planning on selling the nid half on ebay and buying more marines. Any help would be appreciated, im a total noob to warhammer just getting started.
If the ICTF vowed target gave +1 to wound for Deathwing Vehicles it would probably bump DA up to 47-49%. By no means meta but it’s the least they could do. Wtf is the point of LR’s, Dreads, and Repulsors getting the keyword when it does absolutely nothing. So stupid.
Codex Azrael. It is mind blowing how "good" The actual DA detachments or actual DA unuts are doing. The codex could not exist (for new players) and most would not even notice. Tank list which "DA" feel comes from a chapter master and a speeder.
Apothecary overshaddowed???? Hes ausome with hellblasters and azrael. Another unit good with az is the innercircle companions as he already gives sustained and invulnerable save, add an ancient with pennant of remembrance and they are as tanky as you like.plus they have built in dark shroud with minus 1 to hit.
Dark Talon 210 and LR Crusader 220, GW point balancing is really bad, even flyer should have a place on the board with use, also the way flyer have to move is a bad designed rule
Whilst Auspex is great for information, it's in the lens of competitive. Play what you think looks cool and the rules will change. Midyear update is happening soon, and if SM/DA are untouched a lot of people will be upset. SM are never bad for long because they are the poster boys of 40k and having *the* 40k army be anything worse than mediocre is not a good idea.
HAHA I only have Deathwing terminators, one Landraider, Az, and now the Lion left of my old Dark Angels army. I just rebased my old Azrael on some cork and a bigger base so he counts.
CORRECTION: It's 310pts for Ravenwing Command Squad plus max Black Knights sorry! Mental math error on my part there.
Codex: Azrael
☹️
I want my interrogator chaplains back.
We’re still paying for the sins of 9e Inner Circle… despite it being removed before the end of 9e.
the crazy thing is, I played deathwing-heavy lists for most of 9e (even before the "Armor of Contempt" rules update a year or so before 10th), and literally nobody was complaining about how strong those terminators were until they won an event or two... even though they'd had that ability for 90% of the edition lol
@zugzugzugzug that's cause the next books didn't care about their inner circle ability and by the time an army came out that did they had been power crept out.
@@zugzugzugzug it was free wargear and permanent dev doctrine which put them over the edge. they had what they did and were just stupidly cheap.
The most inexcusable thing to me is that they didn’t change our army rule. This dumbass battleshock focused rule that has literally always been bad, and always been mocked as bad. GW just went “it’s good, keep it”
Does GW secretly hate us all? Is it revenge for all our constant complaining? Recent Codexes have been really underwhelming.
@@Peter_WendtRecent Imperium codices have been bad. Xenos are loving it (mostly). And CSM was pretty good
@@cadettrev762 Glad to hear it was good! I haven't looked at it closely yet. I was thinking of Custodes and Admech mostly.
Just a brutal codex at a time where interest in Dark Angels is probably its peak post Ark of Omens and all the new lore justification to bring in their beautiful HH era kits into play aesthetically. We lost a massive amount of flavor and flexibility for our unique units in return for great looking bladeguard proxies and a nice looking Asmodai/Chaplain model. Awful detachments, no mixed weapon terminators anymore (a staple since 2nd edition) and lost our unique LTs. Writing on the wall regarding our unique Ravenwing (outriders are awful for what bikes used to provide), plus the funny damage nerf to LS's Plasma Battery.
Its even worse with Azrael/Land Speeder Dark Shroud puffing up sub 30% win rates, we might actually get buffs if it wasn't for that Iron Storm list. Then again Dark Angels are never really good competitively outside that weird 6 months end of 9th edition. But back then we still had absolute flavor and model swag.
Sad thing is, Space Wolves still have mixed-weapon termies - but never play them because they have better unique stuff.
The termies we can only dream of, are the termies that they don't even bother taking off the shelf..
@@oldmangames9292 Take away Thunderwolf Cav and Puppies drop off the cliff...
As someone who runs a lore-accurate Firehowlers Great Company and thus doesn't use any, it's hilarious just how hard a carry those TWC are
I know Firehowlers are a really weak way to play Marines in general right now, (lots of Skyclaws, Swiftclaws + Speeders, a couple Grey Hunter units + Longfangs), but holy gak, at least in 9th they could do some stuff. 10th just murdered my poor pups.
It kind of scares me when I hear someone say Azrael is undercosted. It's TRUE, but if Games Workshop actually fix Azrael, then the Dark Angels will have literally nothing left.
They totally ruined the Dark Angels this time, in comparison to other codices that came out! Most datasheets are weak and/ore too expensive in points. Deathwing Knights got beautiful new models and building options, but are much too expensive for what they do, as they are very tough, but cannot do much damage...
Azrael and Darkshroud are stand-out units, the rest is ok at best...
I'm willing to bet that the Dangles codex was written by the same person who wrote the custodes/admech ones too
While you are completely correct I do enjoy using knights led by a chaplain to grind things down.
Ravenwing Command Squads + Black Knights in Storm Lance isn't bad either
Eh Custodes and Admech are horrible, too. It's pretty sad when loyalist marines got of *easy* with only a slew of unnecessary rules nerfs and massive pruning and still piss poor internal balance.
Absolutely no excuse for what they did to DWK.
@@basteala525 as I also played custodes the codex murdered my will to play custodes this ed.
Here’s the tier list:
S tier: Azreal
A tier: Darkshroud
F tier: everything else.
Hint, they're all bad/mid except azrael
Ik it’s suck. Me and my brother just got a friend into 40K and he got DA. Not a great start🥲
@@SystemAbominant at least the models are nice I guess. If you like painting, they are the best chapter now. Them or the Templars.
HEY! At least say "spoiler alert" first!!! Jeez!
Azmodai and inner circle companions got the “it’s a cool model, it will sell. Don’t bother with rules” treatment.
So sad to see what they did to DA. I'm also terrified at what the other chapters might be facing
50$ that in this dataslate admech will have a huge update that won't change even a 5th of what people are hopeing online, and DA will have to wait for 11th because of codex space marines units and detachments...
Not like Codex Space Marines are doing well either right now. Being a loyalist marine not named black templars sucks.
@@basteala525you mean space wolves. Last I checked they were doing marginally better
Yup, big reason I put a pause on building DA, and started to focus on Sisters. Funny enough I had them on pause cause I was confident their codex was going to be bad.
Sad thing is. This is likely how DA are going to be for the next 3+ years.
My boys are in a tough spot, but I remain loyal "loyalty is its own reward"
It's a shame, I look at our codex and it's complete trash. But then looking at sisters and orcs, makes me jealous
Not to mention CSM, I’m starting to think Luther might have been right…
This is why you *NEVER* want to be among the first 4-5 codices of a new edition...
Remember CSM's in 6th being the first book? And again in 8th? And DG also being like the 3rd or 4th codex in 8th? Or Necrons in 9th? And going way back in time, how hilariously under powered Marines, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels & CSM's were at the beginning of 3rd edition?
It's almost like having your codex written while the new edition is still being developed and/or barely a month old is a death sentence for any faction...
There is nothing in this codex that makes people want to play dark angels. They couldnt even make the unique characters interesting. Not even a primarch lol
Yep, it's just an advert for the Azrael model. The book was made for casual play.
As a DA fan of 25 years.
I have been extremely disappointed.
I've played a *lot* of games with inner circle companions recently, they're great as an "emotional rollercoaster" unit. Almost always, they end up doing the opposite of what my opponent expects lol.
World Eaters slamming into me and all that's left to stop them is 6 companions? Surprise, their counterpunch ends up killing a lord of skulls, angron, and a bunch of berserkers
Random unit shoots/fights them with a bunch of ap0 or ap1 shots/swings? Surprise, 3 of them die immediately
I love the unit's look and the idea of them being a small elite group of bodyguards that are surprisingly punchy sounds super cool, problem is their datasheet feels too half-baked to be useful as anything other than a bodyguard for Azrael. They're cheap enough that I don't feel bad using 3-6 of them as Azzy's bubble wrap (tbh I might go as far as to say they're the best bodyguard unit for him), but I wouldn't want to ever run multiple units of them, or run them with other characters
edit after watching the vid: personally I'd much *muuuuuuuuuch* rather use 3-6 ICC's in a list than the Lion right now. Sure he can be scary, but he's far from being a scary enough melee threat on his own for me to want to bring. He doesn't have a way to effectively deal with anything with an invulnerable save, his strike isn't quite high-enough strength to be appealing vs high-toughness vehicles (where ap4 is useful), his sweep being 1 damage instead of 2 makes it only ever worth using if he's fighting 1w chaff, and his primarch auras range from niche at best to anti-synergistic at worst (I'd much rather have pretty much anything than +1 to hit in melee lol, most of the melee stuff you'd be sending in alongside him already hits on 2's lol). 300points is also expensive enough that it's not easy to just "slot" him into a partial list in the same way that you can with ICC's, 90 per 3 is pricy but manageable in most cases
you *can* build around him, but I unfortunately haven't had much fun (or success) doing so. it's also tough whenever you remember that Abaddon does so much more, while getting to lead a unit, while also being 5 points cheaper
I like how in comparison to Space wolves (who use their detachment and unique units) Dark Angels players, including me, only use Azrael and the Dark shroud
To be fair. . .you do see more SWs running Stormlance than anything, and we have had a couple (at least one IIRC) to win events running the Unforgiven Task Force. There are a ridiculous number of chapters functioning as Iron Hand Successors though. . .
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if all we got from GW is an Azrael points nerf
It really should say something when the Inner Circle Companions are so bad that I only buy them to kitbash HH Deathwing Companions.
Bring the Talonmaster back in Stormspeeder form.
This and interrogator chaplain!
And my strike master and DW command squad! I want my resurrecting termies with lethal hits back!
Not sure if i heard that right but just in case asmodi is not the chief chaplain and trust me if you havent heard the dialog between him and the cheif chaplain go look it up asmodi needs a tub of aloe vera after every conversation it is hilarious
Asmodai is the Chief Interrogator Chaplain mate, has been for a long time, if not always. I’ve never seen a Dark Angels story where he isn’t already chief chaplain.
@darthrevan4485 the head chaplain is a guy named Sapphon. Or it was. Not sure about 10th but he has been in previous editions. He's very level headed and thus kinda boring compared to the lunacy of Asmodai.
@@darthrevan4485he’s the chief *interrogator chaplain*
The Dark Angels have 2 types of chaplains. Sapphon is their Master of Sanctity (basic chaplains). Been that way for multiple editions
@@rainman1637 you sir have not read him absolutely shredding asmodai a new one when he found him trying to execute guardsmen for disobedience and disloyalty when he himself was disobeying orders
@@anhojghost8913 oh that sounds great. What book is that in?
I mean, I count Hellblasters as a Dark Angels unit as long as you take 30.
Howdy! When you talk through the Ravenwing command squad at 19:30 you note that for the command and 6 black knights it’s 410pts. I believe that should be 310 for the full 9 bike squad.
I have a strike force company of hunters list with 48 bikes that I built because I’ve always loved the all biker idea. Not an easy army to be competitive with, but it’s a blast and really fast! Haha
All of the units for dark angels I just finished painting are in the bottom 3 tiers 😭
That’s fucking rough haha
putting DWK and Lion at T2 is honestly wild. I'd expect anything T2 to be usable competitively....neither of which are. DWK need to be 200 to be close to usable given how bad the DA detachments are, and Lion needs rules changes - why they nerfed him when he was already not good I'll never know.... why is he worse than Abaddon?
Dwk are better assault terminators. They out damage into nearly every conceivable target even when they get the worst wargear into that target. That's also ignoring that dwk actually have a pretty good ability.
on paper I'd be totally with you, the changes from index to codex for DWK's make it seem like they're completely gutted and horrible to use now. the worse weapon profiles and max unit size dropping to 5 certainly feels bad.
however, in practice I've actually had a fair bit of success with them, mostly because my opponent ignores them (something to the effect of "focusing fire on 4w -1damage terminators sounds miserable") and I can take them up the board and harass stuff with them. It'll take them awhile to kill vehicles or monsters, but they can keep stuff tied down *really* effectively.
they're not a "build my whole list around" kind of unit like they used to be (cough cough 10 infiltrating DWK's in vanguard), but they're surprisingly useful at "sneakily" winning the game while your opponent prioritizes killing your land raiders or hellblasters (or whatever other big punchy units you have) first
terminator captain is a great leader for them; reroll charge rolls is fantastic and the free battle tactic can be flexed either offensively or defensively depending on matchup, turn order, etc
quick correction: DW Terminators only ignore modifiers to hit, not anything else. If they ignored all modifiers they'd actually be worth the points (maybe too much so)
Absolutely gutted the army for the crime of not being Ultramarines. I hope the other non-codex compliant chapters aren't hit as hard but I won't be surprised.
Space wolves and templars will get nuked. Can't be having good marines
Templars will be absolutely bent over a barrel for how well they are doing
That would track if the ultramarines were good. None of their characters are better than Azrael. Other than the centurion cheese, they had pretty much. Sure, Calgar is good, but not Azrael good.
@@yhormthemidget Azrael should probably get a points increase but having 1 good character doesn't justify nerfs to anything and everything that isn't aloud in a UM list
@@TacticaIHobo sure, but that is a codex issue not a unit one. If the DA detachments could meaningfully interact with DA units or keywords they could be great. I think it is not favoritism towards any other space marine factions, they just straight up royally fcked up half of the 10th codexes. SM included. Pretty much the only decent codexes were necrons, orks and CSM. SM, Nid, AdMech, Custodes and DA were rather abysmal ( I have zero info about the Tau codex, I dont know anyone who actually plays Tau) At most one usable detachment per codex if even that.
Codex: Black Templars proxies
A friend from my local store had once making fun on Marine : "You guys don't have divided chapters, all of you are just Iron Hand, son😏"
When I look at the Tier 1 list, I feel really sad on this🤦🏻♂️🥲
Honestly if all the detachment rules where re written i doubt a single person would complain.
Still my main army, but I halted buying anything new for awhile. Sending my money to other gaming companies until GW figures out DA.
I started 40K with dark angels a few months ago and I’ve seen decent casual success with a gladius list using azrael, DW knights, and DW terminators. That said it really does not feel like I’m playing dark angels - azrael just parks in the backline with my hellblasters and feeds me Command Points while I keep my deathwing in reserves to deepstrike. I did win a game the other day where I brought the lion and belial just to try them out. It was definitely fun to put them on the board but Belial was basically useless and the lion really only acted as a deterrent. The only reason I won was because I baited my opponent into overcommitting towards azrael which gave me a deep strike window for his home objective.
It almost feels like GW is leaning into their status as the “original” space marine chapter: they’re like normal space marines but a little bit better - one unit gets sustained hits 1! 🙃
File Belial's name off his shoulder pad and he becomes a usable terminator captain.
Wonder if the Lion wants his Helm back?
THANK YOU AUSPEX!!! Just the other day I was laying down for bed saying my nightly prayer to Auspex that a DA tier list would come out soon and for his strategic wisdom in all things. I knew you were listening. And they all called me crazy! Ha!
Assembling some dark angels right now, great to listen along while doing so
Tier list feels generous. Belial and Inner Circle companions on tier 3, or Lion on tier 2 feels like wishful thinking.
Dark angels RULE!!!!
Sadly they do not
Worst army in the game. My collection against try hards is useless. With casual play and using the original 10th data sheets it's viable though tbh.
rules change drip is eternal!
The comparison to generic space marine tiers is fantastic and much appreciated ❤
My personal favorite Azrael combo, is 10 hellblasters, Azrael, and an Apothecary, starting in a repulsor. Very expensive but creates a huge midboard problem
I run Asmodai with 10x Assault Intercessors in a repulsor. When they jump out and charge a unit on an objective and get to reroll hits AND wounds they feel really good. It's like getting a second OOM.
Should have gotten access to cypher as well.
They’re all tier 4 besides azrael and the darkshroud… Knew the answers before watching the vid! Haha ugh
My go to; Azrael and Lieutenant Zakariah with 10 Hellblasters (stupidly OP), Termie Chaplain on 5 DW Knights, Belial with 10 DW Terminators, Apocathary Biologis with 5 Heavy Intercessors, 6 plasma Inceptors, 1 Redemptor, 1 Repulsor Executioner. Job done.
Dark Angels getting shit on by GW is almost as consistent as CSM's getting dumpster'ed by GW...
Having been around since the beginning of 3rd edition, Dark Angels have almost *always* been the "have-not" among loyalist Marines;
- your 3rd edition codex was so laughably unplayable, GW had to overhaul it in a Chapter Approved article just to make them remotely playable
- you got "Jervis'ed" in 4th ed alongside CSM's and Eldar... but at least CSM's had double Lash Princes + Nurgle Bikers while Eldar could abused 4th's core rules with their unkillable Fire Prism's + Flying Circus builds
Poor Dark Angels were just left to sit in the corner and cry into their bath robes.
- Oopsie! 5th ed called, it forgot you even existed, just like the poor CSM's!
- 6th was again GW going, "how can make Dark Angels suck again?"
- 7th ed GW decided to let you all out of the dog house and have about 8-12 months of fun with the 'Dark Green' version of the Gladius formation
CSM's finally became semi-relevant again for all of 5 months before GW nuked the Traitor Legions supplement
- 8th was again mostly a miss.
- 9th had amazing character for the army, but then got hated on because god forbid Dark Angel players of all people be allowed to have any nice toys again 😛
Seriously, Dark Angels have almost always been that loyalist army you play and collect only because you love their lore & background, because GW letting you be remotely competitive is purely by complete accident!
Thank you for documenting our damnation.
I still think an important aspect of evaluating a unit is evaluating who can effectively lead them. Bladeguards may be better than Inner Circle Companions on paper, but ICC can take more gains from Azrael than Bladeguards do. ICC have more OC, more strength, more flexible melee options, and when led by Azrael are harder to kill than bladeguards with their -1 to hit. Add a Lieutenant in as well and give them lethal hits + fallback shoot/charge to keep them incredibly mobile.
ICC have lethal hits already for their profile. Their issue is simply that the bladeguard can do plenty without a character whereas the ICC need one to function (which I know is the point, but it makes their 90 point cost feel bad)
Why attach a lieutenant or Azrael to the ICC when you can attach them to the hellblasters and take Bladeguard? Or save the points on a lieutenant and instead take some enhancements or shuffle points for a more useful squad.
ICC need to be a block of 5 like the BT sword bretheren and their -1 to hit rule should be always active regardless of if they have a character attached to them. It'll give them a stand out difference from the BGV
@@ViciousSkittle I think that his point was simply some characters add enough to a squad to change how they maybe ranked by a good margin. I agree that the Lt doesn't bring much to the table, but Azrael with ICC is actually pretty solid. The two compliment each other nicely, and in a similar manner like the case of Azrael when he could lead Company Heroes. Nothing feels wasted and ICC feel more like a complete unit. With Azrael, ICC can focus on the strike attacks, everything is minus one to hit alongside the 4++, they can hit characters on twos, and they have OC2. That's a fair bit of utility.
I don't know what GW's plan is for Space Marines in general, but from a competitive side, if ICC was given a 5++, then they would feel far more competitive when compared to BGV. It would be nice to have more squads with a "5" option, but GW seems to be ignoring the transport problem. . .
The Lion and DWK are tier 4 and 3 respectively...
Inner circle companions are OC2, which isn't nothing. I find Ezekiel very strong, and extra attack each and a chance of character assassination comes in very handy.
The Deathwing Terminators are gorgeous! Once i get my hands on an Airbrush, amma start making a Ultramarine/Dark Angle chapter and make 10 of them.
I think the units are rated correctly . Although I'm still not a fan of Jonson at 300 points . What the Inner Circle Companions need are more character models to be Deathwing like all generic captains and such . That would make the ICC already a lot more interresting . Other buffs should include the mixing of Assault weapons with normal terminator weapons for the Deathwing Terminators . And the return of course of the Deathwing Strikemaster . Not sure what could be done for the CoH since to improve on that they would have to change the Outriders to be more effective . IN other words , GW has to re-write some datasheets and rules before much of the DA becomes competitively playable and interresting .
Talking about win rates ... Azrael with a SM List, running a SM detachments .... This tierlist is not to be used in comparison to other tierlists.
This tierlist is ok to show the relativ strenght of the DA units in comparison with themselves for playing fun games with friends.
The real tierlist for competitiv games not using DA detachments:
T1: Azreal T2: Dark Shroud T3: those things listetd in T2. T4 all the things listed in T3 ... T5: the things listed in T4.
Using DA detachments ... all units besides Azrael und darkshroud go down, as the detachments are so underwhelming, that they are not played in competitiv games.
Besides that, I like the old DA inner circle detachment best, feels well for DA, i like the battle shock theme, because it gives DA something special (I know, not too useful :-)) ... but even that bad detachment was made worse with changing the former best strat....
And it makes me sad to see, that other codici bloom with good ideas, good flavour and competitiv and unique ideas...
And what about the Chaplain on bike? Use him with Ravenwing Knights and here you go: Plasma with devastating wounds plus Anti+.
Feels like they're reeling in the power levels so when the next edition comes round they can buff the heck out of everything and send those sweet prices even higher.
It's been heartbreaking trying to play them over the last few months.
The codex supplement just doesn't have any teeth. I personally don't care how cheap the Lion is; I'd much prefer him to be expensive with some truly scary stats and rules. On the rare occasion I see him these days, it doesn't take long before he gets focus-fired down. Otherwise, he's so shot up by the time he gets to the monster/character he's hunting that he gets one-shotted in the most anticlimactic way. The Firstborn Son of the Emperor, beloved by all and the Monster Hunter of Caliban sure gets his ass kicked by his prey a lot these days and it's always painful to watch.
The ICC literally have Iron Halos mounted over their backpack censers. For the love of God, give them the rule already and some AP on those swords; they shouldn't have to rely on working solely with Azrael to have any survivability.
Belial and the DW terminators are underwhelming, especially the knights. I love their durability but they need better weapons. I guess that's my issue with 10th - I hate how WEAK everything feels compared to what I'm fighting against. Azrael if the only unit that makes me feel proud of playing my army (fortunately, I don't mind Greenwing and I like lots of tanks and stuff. But still, the DA specific units have proven to be terrible.) I actually wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed Azrael in the days ahead and I honestly wouldn't even feel bad at this point; the poor guy's back must be sore from carrying the whole army all throughout the edition.
One the positive side, I love the miniatures and they look amazing on my display shelf ! Oh well, the truth is, DAs have rarely been great or even good on the table. I had hoped bringing back the Lion would reinvigorate the faction but it sure doesn't seem that way. All I can hope for now is better luck in 11th.
It funny that sister got such a boost that soon they will get nerf. Yet space marine are all over the place and lots of them are stuggle from unit cost, unit rules etc
Should redo this video!
Codex:Stormbird and everyone's inability to understand hover rules.
ravenwing black knight squad x 6 (180) and ravenwing command squad x 3 (130) is 310 pts not 410 the comman squad are also black knights for 9 black knights... am i missing something
I'm just getting back into warhammer after many many years - I still have my dark angels army, and am trying to see what lists / builds people are running to get an idea of what to put together. I heard that ironstorm got a nerf, and in one video I heard people are still running that, but also that most people are now running 3 x 5 DW knights, some inner circle companions, land raider / impulsor etc. Could someone please share a resource that lets me see what people are currently running (as youtube search results brings up old videos when I type in current) thank you so much!
Does Lion El'Johnson remind anyone else of Tywin Lannister?
With the new point changes whats a decent list for a 1000 pt general space marine army? Iv got everything from the leviathan box set i just purchased. Planning on selling the nid half on ebay and buying more marines. Any help would be appreciated, im a total noob to warhammer just getting started.
310 points for the combined RWBK+RWCS unit. You said 410 in the video.
Thanks, math fail on my part there. Will post a pinned correction above!
If the ICTF vowed target gave +1 to wound for Deathwing Vehicles it would probably bump DA up to 47-49%. By no means meta but it’s the least they could do. Wtf is the point of LR’s, Dreads, and Repulsors getting the keyword when it does absolutely nothing. So stupid.
Codex Azrael. It is mind blowing how "good" The actual DA detachments or actual DA unuts are doing. The codex could not exist (for new players) and most would not even notice. Tank list which "DA" feel comes from a chapter master and a speeder.
Bad times video with the buffs and changes.
In a certain companion is -2 ap on the great sword, plus a few other bits and pieces for the faction
Apothecary overshaddowed???? Hes ausome with hellblasters and azrael. Another unit good with az is the innercircle companions as he already gives sustained and invulnerable save, add an ancient with pennant of remembrance and they are as tanky as you like.plus they have built in dark shroud with minus 1 to hit.
Tier List? Azrale, rest is shiieeeet. Thx GW!
Uh, maybe i should get those Black Lions to show GW that i wont support this anymore :)
DARK ANGELS VIDEO DARK ANGELS VIDEO DARK ANGELS VIDEO DARK ANGELS VIDEO DARK ANGELS VIDEO 🗣️🦁🦁🦁🦁
not the right time to get a Dark Angels army then!
I'd still play them in a tourney. I don't care what's meta. I play what I love.
Dark Talon 210 and LR Crusader 220, GW point balancing is really bad, even flyer should have a place on the board with use, also the way flyer have to move is a bad designed rule
This was before or after the deathwing buff?
Before.
Is Ironstorm the Ideal way to play SM? I just got a leviathan box and trying to see what to get into next.
If you want to win, yes. That or the index. SM is rather weak now, but you can make it work. I prefer something with more spikes though.
Whilst Auspex is great for information, it's in the lens of competitive.
Play what you think looks cool and the rules will change. Midyear update is happening soon, and if SM/DA are untouched a lot of people will be upset. SM are never bad for long because they are the poster boys of 40k and having *the* 40k army be anything worse than mediocre is not a good idea.
@@ViciousSkittle Up vote for rule of cool!
Bummer that this whole list is out of date just like 1 week later. Great video otherwise!
everything tier 4 bar Azreal
Dead angels
Just here fir the comments
Eldar Will rule the galaxy again
HAHA I only have Deathwing terminators, one Landraider, Az, and now the Lion left of my old Dark Angels army. I just rebased my old Azrael on some cork and a bigger base so he counts.
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i wish the dakka store would theme them more towards chaos so we could get a proper fallen army.
Index Cards Version 1.4
Update 30/01/2024
Azrael - Leadersection
Add new bullet to read:
'▪︎ Company Heros'
that's been superceded by the Codex, so he gained it and then lost it. Indeeeeeeeeed.
FIRST !! hahaha